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On December 27 2011 04:49 [17]Purple wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 04:29 Big J wrote:On December 27 2011 02:22 therockmanxx wrote:On December 26 2011 04:49 ChoboKal wrote:
Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket baL2ll because they believe it is the harder sport. In BW you actually MICRO ur units so they take down the biggest threat to give you a advantage during battle Snipe shuttle, reaver, defiler, science vessels, arbiters, lukers, tanks, HT can change the entire battle. In SC2 deathball kill smaller deathball. GG The last part is a joke of course well.... maybe 30% true.... So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2) I would think that a game design that allowed the better player to win is a good one.
Well, the most popular sport in the world (Football) has some of the biggest inherent variance of any mainstream team sport, and the better team certainly doesn't always win. I'm not saying BW or WoL are a better competitive game, but I do think that, from looking at "real" sports, its obvious that a sport having built-in variance is not really a factor in determining whether or not that sport is popular as a competitive sport. Which means that, IMO, BW or WoL being "harder" is completely irrelevant.
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On December 27 2011 05:16 wassbix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 04:29 Big J wrote:On December 27 2011 02:22 therockmanxx wrote:On December 26 2011 04:49 ChoboKal wrote:
Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket baL2ll because they believe it is the harder sport. In BW you actually MICRO ur units so they take down the biggest threat to give you a advantage during battle Snipe shuttle, reaver, defiler, science vessels, arbiters, lukers, tanks, HT can change the entire battle. In SC2 deathball kill smaller deathball. GG The last part is a joke of course well.... maybe 30% true.... So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2) Kinda hard for anyone to L2 not deathball when the AI and pathfinding hardlocks any X amount of unit to bunch up into the smallest ball possible. And if your argument is that pros should fight the dumb AI/Pathfinding to do so.... well that kinda goes against your hatred for actually having to control units doesn't it? Not to mention that mutastacking and Jangbi storms are actually fun and satisfying to execute (and to watch), meanwhile fighting the dumb AI to prevent your marines from trying to turn into a human boulder is not.
Yeah... i said nothing about broodwar. just mentioned that dumbass comments about sc2 lead to dumbass comments about broodwar.
About time to close this ventile of hatred thread.
And well, if you want to go there: watch how pros split their armies all the time until a battle starts and then try to organize them in rows as good as they can. You get what i'm talking about? BW just as much as sc2!
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On December 27 2011 05:17 Fischbacher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 04:49 [17]Purple wrote:On December 27 2011 04:29 Big J wrote:On December 27 2011 02:22 therockmanxx wrote:On December 26 2011 04:49 ChoboKal wrote:
Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket baL2ll because they believe it is the harder sport. In BW you actually MICRO ur units so they take down the biggest threat to give you a advantage during battle Snipe shuttle, reaver, defiler, science vessels, arbiters, lukers, tanks, HT can change the entire battle. In SC2 deathball kill smaller deathball. GG The last part is a joke of course well.... maybe 30% true.... So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2) I would think that a game design that allowed the better player to win is a good one. Well, the most popular sport in the world (Football) has some of the biggest inherent variance of any mainstream team sport, and the better team certainly doesn't always win. I'm not saying BW or WoL are a better competitive game, but I do think that, from looking at "real" sports, its obvious that a sport having built-in variance is not really a factor in determining whether or not that sport is popular as a competitive sport. Which means that, IMO, BW or WoL being "harder" is completely irrelevant.
Well, to be fair variance in football is bloody annoying. Especially since the team that doesn't play for a win has an inherrent advantage.
But in football luck is hidden quite well. Football has variance because a few key decisions and actions have a disproportionate effect on the final result. But the skill of the players still ultimately has a large effect on which way the situation goes.
In SC2 (and in BW for that matter) the effect of luck is explicit. You go for a risky build, you might get hard countered or win without a fight. That's just not fun. It's much harder to convince yourself that BBS vs. 14CC was a display of skill than to see a cross followed by a nice header that goes in off the post as skill. Even if there's an element of luck you don't know how much.
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On December 27 2011 05:03 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 04:12 SagaZ wrote:
People should really read the article before postiing, and try to understand it. It is true that some thing are not said in a very gentle way but the underlining argument is present. Also the discution being side tracked by all the trolls is a bit anoying.
The argument here is, the competition of this new game is a farce because it has been proven in the other game that there are alot of players alot better than these guys.
Nah, people understand the argument just fine. That's why they are reacting angrily.
They actually have no idea, they are getting angry because they think the point of this thread is to point sc2 as a no skill game.
Either you beleive that sc2 is in fact a dumbed down version of bw, admit the whole proscene so far is a farce and hope for bw progamers to switch over so we can see real competition.
Or you beleive that the game is actually significantly different, that different skills make the difference in sc2, but that the scene is a bit too young to see them clearly. In that case, bw pros switching over have nothing exiting.
You can stand for w/e you want, but the OP just states the 2 points of view and chooses none. People are getting agry because either they did not understood it, or because of the "discution" that followed up (wich originated from those guys thst missed the point a bit)
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On December 26 2011 04:53 Sylverin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 04:49 ChoboKal wrote:
Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket ball because they believe it is the harder sport. I want a frisbee game that is all.
Funny how I (or any other average BW player) got shat on by the SC2 community every time I brought that up during the past almost-two-years, while when Day[9] says that it comes off as some sort of revelation. T_____T Hopefully, it's a sign of a change for the better, though.
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I loved reading this. As someone who didn't really follow Brood War, its interesting to see the stats of the top Starcraft II Koreans for when they played in the BW days.
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I do think it should be noted that saying MC, MMA and MVP stats relative to their sucess in SC2 has very little relevance as there are some key factors you do need to consider like the fact that these players were younger and less experienced, jumping into a game that came out in 1997. Players mature as they hit their peak(aside from the freak exceptions who become stars, flash etc.....), I can also see that many B-teamers saw SC2 as their "chance" to make their name as I'm sure professional SC1 at the time was on such a high level it would be hard to crack(not making excuses for them playing poorly but i see this as a not-unfeasible idea). However I think it is only common sense that if a major SC1 progaming team or some of the bigger players mentioned in the article dedicated full-time, their mechanics and experience at the top level of SC1 would certainly create waves in the pro community, but saying SC2 is a farce because of it is like saying hockey pre-ovechkin and crosby was a farce, its still the highest level of SC2 being played at the moment and I am sure that as SC1 pro-scene fades away(yes BW lovers, im sorry but its going to happen eventually) and some of the bigger names are lured to SC2 we will see them "take over" for a period; however saying that we have yet to bear witness to the true talent level of "homebred" SC2 pros who begin their RTS careers by playing Starcraft 2 professionally. All the SC1 bonjwa's became bonjwa's playing only SC1, so i'm sure we have yet to see the next generation of hot korean sc2 players.
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On December 09 2011 06:42 DarkMatter_ wrote:
That statement might be a bit too harsh and unfair, but I can definitely see where he's coming from. Right now, SC2 feels like the place for BW rejects to make a name for themselves by taking advantage of the inferior competition in SC2 and succeed when they never could in BW. This knowledge definitely makes it harder to take the SC2 competition seriously. For long time BW followers, it's hard not to roll your eyes when you see Tastosis rambling on about how godly Nestea and MVP are.
Actually, it's more or less true. The BW practice regime is far more rigorous and strict than that of any SC2 proteam. Moreover, BW teams are a lot more organized and there's a huge amount of money invested just into coaching and managing the teams.
[Y]ou seem to be implying that BW players are all morons who are going to play SC2 exactly like it was BW and control units in the identical way and use the same strategies from BW. BW strats translating to SC2? What makes you think they're going to be using BW strats?
On December 09 2011 08:19 Kibibit wrote:
I'm not a fan of a good number of the points made in the article, but one of the stronger ones made are that with much of the Korean scene, many of these players were proven to either not have the talent or to not have the work ethic to cut it in BW, thus the "300 players" number. there still stands an entire cadre of players who have proven themselves to have better Focus, Micro, Macro, and work ethic than those we currently see in SC2.
The fact that people switched over doesn't mean they couldn't cut it in BW, it just means they weren't at the top at that time and saw an opportunity. It doesn't mean they would never have been competitive in BW had they stayed. The 'cadre of players' with superior skill is actually a cadre of players with more commitment to BW and it doesn't mean that they'll also be more committed to sc2 - I expect some of them won't want to switch.
Tastosis' sensationalising of players is a completely different thing and the intelligent response is a bit of eye-rolling but that's to create excitement for new viewers so it's got to be done.
I wasn't saying anyone is going to copy their builds into sc2, although the phoenix/dt build is one not-particularly-good example of a BW build that still gets thrown around sometimes. I was suggesting that the surface familiarity of SC2 creates opportunities for subtle and discomforting differences that players might not expect; especially under pressure, with 10 years of BW familiarity and reflexes. Playing is instinctive/reflexive after a certain point and those 'instincts' are going to be difficult to retrain.
I am assuming you mean the practise regime for the top established BW players/teams. The BW scene is more refined at the highest level but when organisations/teams switch over with their greater resources and stricter training they're going to need to restructure their existing mechanisms for training in sc2: practise partners will need replacing and teams reorganising. Those teams will be creating brilliant players but they may not be the names we're familiar with.
As builds and balance have been so turbulent in SC2, rigorous preparation is difficult because people haven't been turning up to tournaments with familiar builds. Originality has been as much of a defining factor as level of execution. Until the game is settled it's unreasonable to expect the level of refinement you can see in BW strategies.The sc2 calendar is also currently so packed it's not possible for players to rigorously prepare for each of their opponents individually.
The reason I said I'm excited to see how BW players use the SC2 units is because SC2 pros are still learning about their uses and new players, with pro level mechanics, fresh and unprejudiced by all the patches may notice something those involved through all the minor tweaks are missing. I'm hoping for more early ghost/raven builds, but we'll have to see.
In some ways I think it's more interesting to look at what will happen when BW orgs switch over, rather than getting caught up with the fan favourite players who may not be able to recreate their success in the new game.
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Cometition in Brood war was a Farce because in 10 years, Sc2 Pros will be playing at a much higher level than BW pros today.
Bw and wol come in 2 different game boxes, wol is just a sequel and different game. Its like saying
Competition in Ice hockey is a farce, because theres a football player that if he switched would be better since he has better stats in his sport.
Also, who really cares. BW was BW, i wasnt into video games back then and have only seen a few games. I really dont care what those people do or how good they used to be and howmanypeopletheycouldbeatwouldtheyswitchgames practicealotandentertourneys
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On December 27 2011 21:32 weikor wrote:
Cometition in Brood war was a Farce because in 10 years, Sc2 Pros will be playing at a much higher level than BW pros today.
Bw and wol come in 2 different game boxes, wol is just a sequel and different game. Its like saying
Competition in Ice hockey is a farce, because theres a football player that if he switched would be better since he has better stats in his sport.
This is just dumb comparison. BW and sc2 are not two completely different games, and most of sc2 pros are from BW. I have never seen football players switch to hockey...
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On December 27 2011 21:59 bubl100500 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 21:32 weikor wrote:
Cometition in Brood war was a Farce because in 10 years, Sc2 Pros will be playing at a much higher level than BW pros today.
Bw and wol come in 2 different game boxes, wol is just a sequel and different game. Its like saying
Competition in Ice hockey is a farce, because theres a football player that if he switched would be better since he has better stats in his sport.
This is just dumb comparison. BW and sc2 are not two completely different games, and most of sc2 pros are from BW. I have never seen football players switch to hockey...
According to most people in this thread either broodwar or sc2 is complete bullshit and the other one the one and only esports game so if they would argue consistently they would have to tell you that those games are as different as can be...
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On December 27 2011 21:32 weikor wrote:
Cometition in Brood war was a Farce because in 10 years, Sc2 Pros will be playing at a much higher level than BW pros today.
Bw and wol come in 2 different game boxes, wol is just a sequel and different game. Its like saying
Competition in Ice hockey is a farce, because theres a football player that if he switched would be better since he has better stats in his sport.
Also, who really cares. BW was BW, i wasnt into video games back then and have only seen a few games. I really dont care what those people do or how good they used to be and howmanypeopletheycouldbeatwouldtheyswitchgames practicealotandentertourneys
The idiocy in this post makes me want to scream. Is this really waht people think?
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On December 27 2011 06:33 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 05:03 hypercube wrote:On December 27 2011 04:12 SagaZ wrote:
People should really read the article before postiing, and try to understand it. It is true that some thing are not said in a very gentle way but the underlining argument is present. Also the discution being side tracked by all the trolls is a bit anoying.
The argument here is, the competition of this new game is a farce because it has been proven in the other game that there are alot of players alot better than these guys.
Nah, people understand the argument just fine. That's why they are reacting angrily. They actually have no idea, they are getting angry because they think the point of this thread is to point sc2 as a no skill game.
Maybe some do think this but what about the criticism on SOTG? I doubt Idra or Tyler misunderstood the article or were sidetracked by the comments. Which they probably didn't read anyway.
And anyway, if everyone understood that the article criticizes the level of competition (compared to BW) not the game itself, you'd get exactly the same reaction.
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On December 27 2011 20:19 alhazrel wrote:
[The reason I said I'm excited to see how BW players use the SC2 units is because SC2 pros are still learning about their uses and new players, with pro level mechanics, fresh and unprejudiced by all the patches may notice something those involved through all the minor tweaks are missing. I'm hoping for more early ghost/raven builds, but we'll have to see.
This is hugely exciting for me too. Already fOrGG is showing some new things which the existing SC2 pros for whatever reason just aren't doing.
If nothing else it totally shakes the game up which does wonders to prevent a game from getting stagnant. It's not just a newer, possibly better player, it's one with new tricks and a new perspective.
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On December 28 2011 21:08 Goibon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 20:19 alhazrel wrote:
[The reason I said I'm excited to see how BW players use the SC2 units is because SC2 pros are still learning about their uses and new players, with pro level mechanics, fresh and unprejudiced by all the patches may notice something those involved through all the minor tweaks are missing. I'm hoping for more early ghost/raven builds, but we'll have to see. This is hugely exciting for me too. Already fOrGG is showing some new things which the existing SC2 pros for whatever reason just aren't doing. If nothing else it totally shakes the game up which does wonders to prevent a game from getting stagnant. It's not just a newer, possibly better player, it's one with new tricks and a new perspective.
I completely agree. This is going to happen as more and more people enter sc2. And besides those experienced in BW, I think someone like Moon also will change the face of the game once he enters sc2 full-time. He is just such a beast in RTS games, its unbelieveable.
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On December 26 2011 21:57 VTPerfect wrote:
cause all the sc1 "bonjwas" are just so incredibly super human and good and above the level of normal human and gifted and great and will be the best at every game they play because they are super human. I've watched Vods, they are good at RTS in general and really great at the specific skillsets of Sc1. Are they going to own Sc2? probably won't ever. Sc1 Kors were king because they hid their playstyle and replays between themselves while everyone else had to watch 2-3 year old games. can you even imagine Stephano trying to compete in GSL 2012 if his only information resource is GSL Open season 1 games and can only practice with others with the same resources?
To some extent this is happening but both sides are doing it and neither side has a skill advantage. That said going to GSL to compete would still be alot of fun and worthwhile especially fighting to keep your Code S salary. But its simply not the "best" in alot of respects and most people don't expect these players to dominate tournaments they enter anymore either.
Good luck with copying  Flash's maphack.
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On December 28 2011 21:08 Goibon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 20:19 alhazrel wrote:
[The reason I said I'm excited to see how BW players use the SC2 units is because SC2 pros are still learning about their uses and new players, with pro level mechanics, fresh and unprejudiced by all the patches may notice something those involved through all the minor tweaks are missing. I'm hoping for more early ghost/raven builds, but we'll have to see. This is hugely exciting for me too. Already fOrGG is showing some new things which the existing SC2 pros for whatever reason just aren't doing. If nothing else it totally shakes the game up which does wonders to prevent a game from getting stagnant. It's not just a newer, possibly better player, it's one with new tricks and a new perspective.
Such as ? Thor/hellion/banshee all in ? Or hellions harass into cloaked banshee ? 
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Russian Federation748 Posts
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket ball because they believe it is the harder sport.
Actually yes. I would bet sports like pétanque, fléchettes( so many French words here), or curling are less popular because they're not considered as difficult. Or to take a better example, there's a reason why chess and go are kings in the realm of board games, compared to backgammon, othello or draughts.
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On December 28 2011 22:10 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 21:08 Goibon wrote:On December 27 2011 20:19 alhazrel wrote:
[The reason I said I'm excited to see how BW players use the SC2 units is because SC2 pros are still learning about their uses and new players, with pro level mechanics, fresh and unprejudiced by all the patches may notice something those involved through all the minor tweaks are missing. I'm hoping for more early ghost/raven builds, but we'll have to see. This is hugely exciting for me too. Already fOrGG is showing some new things which the existing SC2 pros for whatever reason just aren't doing. If nothing else it totally shakes the game up which does wonders to prevent a game from getting stagnant. It's not just a newer, possibly better player, it's one with new tricks and a new perspective. Such as ? Thor/hellion/banshee all in ? Or hellions harass into cloaked banshee ?
It's not necessarily his builds that are good. It's his mechanics, awareness, and overall way of strategizing and doing things. Replace ForGG with most other Terrans doing those builds against the same opponents, and they'd get crushed.
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On January 01 2012 13:42 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 22:10 Erasme wrote:On December 28 2011 21:08 Goibon wrote:On December 27 2011 20:19 alhazrel wrote:
[The reason I said I'm excited to see how BW players use the SC2 units is because SC2 pros are still learning about their uses and new players, with pro level mechanics, fresh and unprejudiced by all the patches may notice something those involved through all the minor tweaks are missing. I'm hoping for more early ghost/raven builds, but we'll have to see. This is hugely exciting for me too. Already fOrGG is showing some new things which the existing SC2 pros for whatever reason just aren't doing. If nothing else it totally shakes the game up which does wonders to prevent a game from getting stagnant. It's not just a newer, possibly better player, it's one with new tricks and a new perspective. Such as ? Thor/hellion/banshee all in ? Or hellions harass into cloaked banshee ? It's not necessarily his builds that are good. It's his mechanics, awareness, and overall way of strategizing and doing things. Replace ForGG with most other Terrans doing those builds against the same opponents, and they'd get crushed.
I've been watching ForGG everytime his stream is online, but I've yet seen the difference between his play and other top Terrans, such as Bomber, Polt. Jjaki except his games are extremely short followed by triple commercials.
I'm not saying he's not good or something, just that I fail to see what the difference is. He's great, but not someone who is showing new things.
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