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On December 26 2011 03:14 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 03:05 Boblion wrote:On December 26 2011 02:55 lorkac wrote:On December 26 2011 02:35 bubl100500 wrote:On December 26 2011 02:25 lorkac wrote:
I agree, right clicking minerals all day is a much more interesting macro mechanic than mule, injects and chrono boost timings. Also, ai that makes units wander aimlessly is much better than smooth ai, because good micro is being able to right click the screen at 300apm just to get a dragoon up the ramp. That is the true show of skill in Starcraft. Right clicking minerals and right clicking ramps. Sc2 should learn from that. Yeah, also it's good to think before you post something. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize BW had a macro mechanic other than right clickin minerals, please enlighten me  Also, sorry about misrepresenting the BW ai, I'm sure it was smooth and flowing and didn't require you to click a lot just to get units to move normally. My mistake, please, tell me how BW works them since I was wrong? Left clicking to drop a mule makes you way smarter indeed Depends on how much you need detection or intel. Many players die because the use a mule whn they should have used it to scout, or they dropped a mule giving the cloak unit the timing to kill workers. Sometimes it was better to save up scans to hunt for observers/kill tumors, and sometimes you simply needed the minerals. It's that annoying tactical choice thing that the orbital gives. So annoying. Sometimes it's needed for defense, offense, intel, or economy. It's like it's a dynamic building or something ridiculous.
You forgot to use a smiley face
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On December 26 2011 03:08 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 03:02 Sawamura wrote:On December 26 2011 02:55 lorkac wrote:On December 26 2011 02:35 bubl100500 wrote:On December 26 2011 02:25 lorkac wrote:
I agree, right clicking minerals all day is a much more interesting macro mechanic than mule, injects and chrono boost timings. Also, ai that makes units wander aimlessly is much better than smooth ai, because good micro is being able to right click the screen at 300apm just to get a dragoon up the ramp. That is the true show of skill in Starcraft. Right clicking minerals and right clicking ramps. Sc2 should learn from that. Yeah, also it's good to think before you post something. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize BW had a macro mechanic other than right clickin minerals, please enlighten me Also, sorry about misrepresenting the BW ai, I'm sure it was smooth and flowing and didn't require you to click a lot just to get units to move normally. My mistake, please, tell me how BW works them since I was wrong? Bw hard macro mechanics example 1 TvZ , After opening a 1 rax fe, you made your first batch of MnM trying to fake or pressure zergs and in the mean while macroing from 6 rax , making siege tanks and dropping another batch of mnm to a zerg's expo , getting upgrades and making supply depot and getting another third , Simple ? yeah it's really simple add that with scourge chasing your science vessel all over the map . Poor Science vessel T_T. No wonder TvZ is where as a terran you will be judge whether you are a good terran or merely average ,because TvZ is really multi tasking demanding . Make marines, supply depots, and move army around. Yes, these things dont happen in sc2. I can see now, so innovative and interesting this mechanic is. So I build units, and I build farms, that way, I have th supply to maintain those units. And those units, I use them on the map to gain an advantage. Oh wow, I should try using these tactics in sc2, then sc2 will be gosu like bw
Is it possible for you to argue without being snide? Every post of yours has intentionally condescending phrasing. I get your argument, but it's completely obnoxious for you to talk down to everyone in the thread who doesn't think you're 100% right.
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On December 26 2011 03:18 lorkac wrote:
I'm sorry guys, your arguments are convincing. I will stop making comments suggesting BW can be simplified and accept that BW is perfect and all not BW are inferior. I apologize greatly for my indescretion, I shall lash myself 12 times--one for every unit you're allowed to select.
Hey some of your arguments do make sense, right clicking to make up for a bad engine shouldnt be what the game is about. But some other aspects of the engine (units not clumping into a ball for instance) gave some of the most amazing battles ive seen that are starcraft related. In SC2, you know the outcome of a battle (as a spectator) to like 90% certainty before they a-click into each other. Watch day[9]'s second last video for clarification.
BW's engine is inferior, but id never call the game inferior.
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I agree about the comments relating to Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu; but honestly calling SC2 competition a farce is just straight out bad. Let people enjoy SC2 and BW and stop this senseless bashing back and forth. I respect both scenes, but I follow the SC2 one because I am American, and I want to cheer for people from my country and watch tournaments live at a decent hour.
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On December 26 2011 03:11 calgar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 03:08 lorkac wrote:On December 26 2011 03:02 Sawamura wrote:On December 26 2011 02:55 lorkac wrote:On December 26 2011 02:35 bubl100500 wrote:On December 26 2011 02:25 lorkac wrote:
I agree, right clicking minerals all day is a much more interesting macro mechanic than mule, injects and chrono boost timings. Also, ai that makes units wander aimlessly is much better than smooth ai, because good micro is being able to right click the screen at 300apm just to get a dragoon up the ramp. That is the true show of skill in Starcraft. Right clicking minerals and right clicking ramps. Sc2 should learn from that. Yeah, also it's good to think before you post something. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize BW had a macro mechanic other than right clickin minerals, please enlighten me Also, sorry about misrepresenting the BW ai, I'm sure it was smooth and flowing and didn't require you to click a lot just to get units to move normally. My mistake, please, tell me how BW works them since I was wrong? Bw hard macro mechanics example 1 TvZ , After opening a 1 rax fe, you made your first batch of MnM trying to fake or pressure zergs and in the mean while macroing from 6 rax , making siege tanks and dropping another batch of mnm to a zerg's expo , getting upgrades and making supply depot and getting another third , Simple ? yeah it's really simple add that with scourge chasing your science vessel all over the map . Poor Science vessel T_T. No wonder TvZ is where as a terran you will be judge whether you are a good terran or merely average ,because TvZ is really multi tasking demanding . Make marines, supply depots, and move army around. Yes, these things dont happen in sc2. I can see now, so innovative and interesting this mechanic is. So I build units, and I build farms, that way, I have th supply to maintain those units. And those units, I use them on the map to gain an advantage. Oh wow, I should try using these tactics in sc2, then sc2 will be gosu like bw Why the hell has this turned into yet another stale, immature, and snippy BW vs SC2 argument? You are obviously in the SC2 generation since you joined TL a year ago. How about you, and everyone else, just respect both games instead of making pointless arguments about "interesting macro mechanics". BW birthed the site. Macro mechanics are undeniably harder because of one building select, 12 unit select limit, bad pathing, etc. SC requires more APM. They are both good games. Let's stop baiting BW fans with dumb arguments and smiley faces k?
The SC2 vs BW argument was inevitable due to the article's points, about how some current sc2 programmers performed poorly in brood war yet perform well in sc2. This brings up a potential probability for sc2 programmers simply being bad.
I think one thing we have to bring up is the idea of the learning curve of Starcraft 2. Sure, it may require less apm to control your units as stalker AI far outclasses that of it's cousin the dragoon, but consider that your opponent ALSO has this "advantage". While brood war players may have to compensate for less help in macro mechanics by having greater apm sc2 pros don't have to do this. Let's say that a brood war programmer transtioned who was classed as a "star player". It doesn't mean that he will trump all the current programmers. Learning races aside how will he bring his knowledge of controlling 12 units at a time over to sc2? It might seem like someone who can do this might win a fight over someone who just uses control groups but there is no real mechanic to transition this over to in sc2.
What I'm saying is that some skills the brood war players may have won't make a difference if they decide to transition. All this was is compensation for flaws in flaws (or challenges if you wish) in brood war's system, and as none of these problems (such as only 12 unit control) exist is sc2 they won't use the "apm" or skills they have to compensate for such thing. 2 different games, 2 different ways they play.
I'm just hoping I put it into coherent wording as the way I put it is probably confusing to even the most sharpened of minds.
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On December 26 2011 03:24 lastGame wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 03:18 lorkac wrote:
I'm sorry guys, your arguments are convincing. I will stop making comments suggesting BW can be simplified and accept that BW is perfect and all not BW are inferior. I apologize greatly for my indescretion, I shall lash myself 12 times--one for every unit you're allowed to select. Hey some of your arguments do make sense, right clicking to make up for a bad engine shouldnt be what the game is about. But some other aspects of the engine (units not clumping into a ball for instance) gave some of the most amazing battles ive seen that are starcraft related. In SC2, you know the outcome of a battle (as a spectator) to like 90% certainty before they a-click into each other. Watch day[9]'s second last video for clarification. BW's engine is inferior, but id never call the game inferior.
Mostly I get annoyed how the assumption a lot of BW defenders have is that since some aspects of sc2 are easier than BW that that means SC2 is automatically inferior to BW and that BW really showed skill when the reality is that the "skill" is measured differently in both games. It's very easy to oversimplify either game in a condescending way. I love both games. Boxer locking down 12+ battlecruisers on Lost Temple while splitting the map in half with siege tanks and nukes was what made me fall in love with videogames. But sometimes the elitism is hard to handle, like people saying SC2 is volatile and then posting a video of bisu going carriers vs zerg as the argument that BW doesn't have it's own volatility. It's oversimplifying a dynamic game whose skill ceiling is hard to reach as can be seen by how much Koreans are dominating despite how many hours a day foreigners are practicing. To judge agame that is realistically missing about 10-12 units assuming 6~ units each expansion. To judge the game design for unit clumping when players should really be spreading their units out more. For thinking that being able to select 100+ units automatically means everyone *should* be putting all their units on one hotkey.
It's very aggravating to hear the bw condescension.
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On December 26 2011 03:36 lorkac wrote:
It's very aggravating to hear the bw condescension.
That's great. If you hate something, try not to become that something.
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On December 26 2011 03:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 03:36 lorkac wrote:
It's very aggravating to hear the bw condescension. That's great. If you hate something, try not to become that something.
With your argument, should I assume that BW condescension is because they like being condescended to?
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"Alicia (#8) (who is going to be big, by the way)"
Lol still waiting for it, this bad prediction had nothing to do in that article
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nvm that clown got banned.
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On December 26 2011 03:14 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 03:05 Boblion wrote:On December 26 2011 02:55 lorkac wrote:On December 26 2011 02:35 bubl100500 wrote:On December 26 2011 02:25 lorkac wrote:
I agree, right clicking minerals all day is a much more interesting macro mechanic than mule, injects and chrono boost timings. Also, ai that makes units wander aimlessly is much better than smooth ai, because good micro is being able to right click the screen at 300apm just to get a dragoon up the ramp. That is the true show of skill in Starcraft. Right clicking minerals and right clicking ramps. Sc2 should learn from that. Yeah, also it's good to think before you post something. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize BW had a macro mechanic other than right clickin minerals, please enlighten me Also, sorry about misrepresenting the BW ai, I'm sure it was smooth and flowing and didn't require you to click a lot just to get units to move normally. My mistake, please, tell me how BW works them since I was wrong? Left clicking to drop a mule makes you way smarter indeed Depends on how much you need detection or intel. Many players die because the use a mule whn they should have used it to scout, or they dropped a mule giving the cloak unit the timing to kill workers. Sometimes it was better to save up scans to hunt for observers/kill tumors, and sometimes you simply needed the minerals. It's that annoying tactical choice thing that the orbital gives. So annoying. Sometimes it's needed for defense, offense, intel, or economy. It's like it's a dynamic building or something ridiculous.
Make your SCV mine repeatly without thinking, don't micro your army, lose the game. Hard mechanics does not really hinder strategic thought. You have to choose where to use your limited mechanics. Choosing between detection and income is not really more deep strategically, please....
Units and pathing is a much more interesting aspect to differentiate strategic depth.
Pretty much agree with Idra btw =)
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Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket ball because they believe it is the harder sport.
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On December 26 2011 04:49 ChoboKal wrote:
Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket ball because they believe it is the harder sport.
I want a frisbee game that is all.
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On December 26 2011 04:53 Sylverin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 04:49 ChoboKal wrote:
Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket ball because they believe it is the harder sport. I want a frisbee game that is all.
Don't we all whaa!!!!!!
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when i'll find the time I'll definitely read the entire thing. pretty neat layout!
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On December 26 2011 03:35 LucidityDark wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 03:11 calgar wrote:On December 26 2011 03:08 lorkac wrote:On December 26 2011 03:02 Sawamura wrote:On December 26 2011 02:55 lorkac wrote:On December 26 2011 02:35 bubl100500 wrote:On December 26 2011 02:25 lorkac wrote:
I agree, right clicking minerals all day is a much more interesting macro mechanic than mule, injects and chrono boost timings. Also, ai that makes units wander aimlessly is much better than smooth ai, because good micro is being able to right click the screen at 300apm just to get a dragoon up the ramp. That is the true show of skill in Starcraft. Right clicking minerals and right clicking ramps. Sc2 should learn from that. Yeah, also it's good to think before you post something. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize BW had a macro mechanic other than right clickin minerals, please enlighten me Also, sorry about misrepresenting the BW ai, I'm sure it was smooth and flowing and didn't require you to click a lot just to get units to move normally. My mistake, please, tell me how BW works them since I was wrong? Bw hard macro mechanics example 1 TvZ , After opening a 1 rax fe, you made your first batch of MnM trying to fake or pressure zergs and in the mean while macroing from 6 rax , making siege tanks and dropping another batch of mnm to a zerg's expo , getting upgrades and making supply depot and getting another third , Simple ? yeah it's really simple add that with scourge chasing your science vessel all over the map . Poor Science vessel T_T. No wonder TvZ is where as a terran you will be judge whether you are a good terran or merely average ,because TvZ is really multi tasking demanding . Make marines, supply depots, and move army around. Yes, these things dont happen in sc2. I can see now, so innovative and interesting this mechanic is. So I build units, and I build farms, that way, I have th supply to maintain those units. And those units, I use them on the map to gain an advantage. Oh wow, I should try using these tactics in sc2, then sc2 will be gosu like bw Why the hell has this turned into yet another stale, immature, and snippy BW vs SC2 argument? You are obviously in the SC2 generation since you joined TL a year ago. How about you, and everyone else, just respect both games instead of making pointless arguments about "interesting macro mechanics". BW birthed the site. Macro mechanics are undeniably harder because of one building select, 12 unit select limit, bad pathing, etc. SC requires more APM. They are both good games. Let's stop baiting BW fans with dumb arguments and smiley faces k? The SC2 vs BW argument was inevitable due to the article's points, about how some current sc2 programmers performed poorly in brood war yet perform well in sc2. This brings up a potential probability for sc2 programmers simply being bad. I think one thing we have to bring up is the idea of the learning curve of Starcraft 2. Sure, it may require less apm to control your units as stalker AI far outclasses that of it's cousin the dragoon, but consider that your opponent ALSO has this "advantage". While brood war players may have to compensate for less help in macro mechanics by having greater apm sc2 pros don't have to do this. Let's say that a brood war programmer transtioned who was classed as a "star player". It doesn't mean that he will trump all the current programmers. Learning races aside how will he bring his knowledge of controlling 12 units at a time over to sc2? It might seem like someone who can do this might win a fight over someone who just uses control groups but there is no real mechanic to transition this over to in sc2. What I'm saying is that some skills the brood war players may have won't make a difference if they decide to transition. All this was is compensation for flaws in flaws (or challenges if you wish) in brood war's system, and as none of these problems (such as only 12 unit control) exist is sc2 they won't use the "apm" or skills they have to compensate for such thing. 2 different games, 2 different ways they play. I'm just hoping I put it into coherent wording as the way I put it is probably confusing to even the most sharpened of minds.
I'm sure he knows it was going to turn into a BW vs SC2 debate. However, the part that's irritating him is the fact that the debate has devolved into something akin to toddlers fighting over a toy.
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if there's less to gain in sc2 from multitasking and unit control, why would brood war pros walk into the game and be dominant?
if they would, isn't there enough room to separate the people at the top? meaning enough of a skill demand that the best players can prove they are the best?
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On December 26 2011 03:18 lorkac wrote:
I'm sorry guys, your arguments are convincing. I will stop making comments suggesting BW can be simplified and accept that BW is perfect and all games not BW are inferior. I apologize greatly for my indescretion, I shall lash myself 12 times--one for every unit you're allowed to select.
I wish all dumb people were as funny as you
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Eh... people still argue that SC2 has reached its skill ceiling? I cant take that argument seriously. Protoss only just discovered the warp prism, and that is a low hanging fruit if there ever was one. There is still much SC2 pros can improve on, just not on things that broodwar players are looking for.
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On December 26 2011 20:31 Hittomogasin wrote:
Eh... people still argue that SC2 has reached its skill ceiling? I cant take that argument seriously. Protoss only just discovered the warp prism, and that is a low hanging fruit if there ever was one. There is still much SC2 pros can improve on, just not on things that broodwar players are looking for.
What are we looking for , oh nostradamous 2.0 ??
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EPT
