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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On December 26 2011 03:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's great. If you hate something, try not to become that something. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.” - Friedrich Nietzsche | ||
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Trealador
United States207 Posts
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VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
To some extent this is happening but both sides are doing it and neither side has a skill advantage. That said going to GSL to compete would still be alot of fun and worthwhile especially fighting to keep your Code S salary. But its simply not the "best" in alot of respects and most people don't expect these players to dominate tournaments they enter anymore either. | ||
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
On December 26 2011 04:49 ChoboKal wrote: Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet. I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket ball because they believe it is the harder sport. In BW you actually MICRO ur units so they take down the biggest threat to give you a advantage during battle Snipe shuttle, reaver, defiler, science vessels, arbiters, lukers, tanks, HT can change the entire battle. In SC2 deathball kill smaller deathball. GG The last part is a joke of course well.... maybe 30% true.... | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On December 26 2011 21:57 VTPerfect wrote: cause all the sc1 "bonjwas" are just so incredibly super human and good and above the level of normal human and gifted and great and will be the best at every game they play because they are super human. I've watched Vods, they are good at RTS in general and really great at the specific skillsets of Sc1. Are they going to own Sc2? probably won't ever. Sc1 Kors were king because they hid their playstyle and replays between themselves while everyone else had to watch 2-3 year old games. can you even imagine Stephano trying to compete in GSL 2012 if his only information resource is GSL Open season 1 games and can only practice with others with the same resources? To some extent this is happening but both sides are doing it and neither side has a skill advantage. That said going to GSL to compete would still be alot of fun and worthwhile especially fighting to keep your Code S salary. But its simply not the "best" in alot of respects and most people don't expect these players to dominate tournaments they enter anymore either. Flash and Jaedong are good because they hid their play style and replays? What are you talking about? | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
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NoobSkills
United States1601 Posts
On December 26 2011 21:57 VTPerfect wrote: cause all the sc1 "bonjwas" are just so incredibly super human and good and above the level of normal human and gifted and great and will be the best at every game they play because they are super human. I've watched Vods, they are good at RTS in general and really great at the specific skillsets of Sc1. Are they going to own Sc2? probably won't ever. Sc1 Kors were king because they hid their playstyle and replays between themselves while everyone else had to watch 2-3 year old games. can you even imagine Stephano trying to compete in GSL 2012 if his only information resource is GSL Open season 1 games and can only practice with others with the same resources? To some extent this is happening but both sides are doing it and neither side has a skill advantage. That said going to GSL to compete would still be alot of fun and worthwhile especially fighting to keep your Code S salary. But its simply not the "best" in alot of respects and most people don't expect these players to dominate tournaments they enter anymore either. They did not own because they were able to hide their exact play. Flash and Jaedong practiced the most. Came up with new builds for map/MU/player specific scenarios to gain advantages in BOX series. They continuously had the best mechanics between micro and macro. This means they had the best mental and physical gameplay as well as the best mindset for winning a BOX series. They didn't hide their bread and butter because once there is a VOD of flash's double armory build someone can work and come to a pretty decent build order from that information. If your scenario was true and all it took was replays to be a winner how come their teammates weren't nearly as good as them? They had the access to replays. If that is all it takes then every KT Terran would dominate as well as every OZ Zerg. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
To sumarize the whole argument here, we have a game, bw, wich is fine and all and people start playing it at a super hight level. Out of all the guys that play the game, just a few are very very good at it, other are average, others are plain bad. Now, the average and bad portion of that game move to another game, similar but at the same time, very different. The argument here is, the competition of this new game is a farce because it has been proven in the other game that there are alot of players alot better than these guys. The counter argument is that, the other game is diferent enought so the results on the old game would not translate in the same relation of power in the new game. Until now, the only thing we don't really know is if the rankings in the old game would be exactly the same. That is to say, is there a certain skill that is not needed in broodwar but is crucial enought in sc2 to make the bw mediocre become the sc2 gods. So yeah, that's the discution, arguing about if clicking minerals is an interesting game design is not really relevant, neither is if watching 2 balls of death colide. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 27 2011 02:22 therockmanxx wrote: In BW you actually MICRO ur units so they take down the biggest threat to give you a advantage during battle Snipe shuttle, reaver, defiler, science vessels, arbiters, lukers, tanks, HT can change the entire battle. In SC2 deathball kill smaller deathball. GG The last part is a joke of course well.... maybe 30% true.... So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2) | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On December 26 2011 21:57 VTPerfect wrote: cause all the sc1 "bonjwas" are just so incredibly super human and good and above the level of normal human and gifted and great and will be the best at every game they play because they are super human. I've watched Vods, they are good at RTS in general and really great at the specific skillsets of Sc1. Are they going to own Sc2? probably won't ever. Sc1 Kors were king because they hid their playstyle and replays between themselves while everyone else had to watch 2-3 year old games. can you even imagine Stephano trying to compete in GSL 2012 if his only information resource is GSL Open season 1 games and can only practice with others with the same resources? To some extent this is happening but both sides are doing it and neither side has a skill advantage. That said going to GSL to compete would still be alot of fun and worthwhile especially fighting to keep your Code S salary. But its simply not the "best" in alot of respects and most people don't expect these players to dominate tournaments they enter anymore either. Is this some kind of joke? The people that have won in SC2 already are the best of the BW players that switched over. Hiding their playstyles? Wtf they train with eachother...How are you going to hide replays from people that train with your teammates? Maybe you can for a couple days or weeks but 2-3 years? Wtf Honestly you've got to try harder than that. I understand you might be making these claims because you're a proffesional player in SC2 with little to no sucess but come on... | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On December 27 2011 04:29 Big J wrote: So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2) No deathballs you say? Well that must suck for all those pro's that talk about deathballs, guess they better learn to play. And 500 apm to control a unit is a gross exaggeration. There is no unit that even requires close to that in either of the games. It's controlling multiple units at once that leads to the high APM. | ||
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Linwelin
Ireland7554 Posts
On December 27 2011 04:29 Big J wrote: So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2) No deathballs? Are you watching the same game as we do? | ||
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[17]Purple
United Kingdom3489 Posts
On December 27 2011 04:29 Big J wrote: So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2) I would think that a game design that allowed the better player to win is a good one. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On December 26 2011 21:57 VTPerfect wrote: cause all the sc1 "bonjwas" are just so incredibly super human and good and above the level of normal human and gifted and great and will be the best at every game they play because they are super human. I've watched Vods, they are good at RTS in general and really great at the specific skillsets of Sc1. Are they going to own Sc2? probably won't ever. Sc1 Kors were king because they hid their playstyle and replays between themselves while everyone else had to watch 2-3 year old games. can you even imagine Stephano trying to compete in GSL 2012 if his only information resource is GSL Open season 1 games and can only practice with others with the same resources? To some extent this is happening but both sides are doing it and neither side has a skill advantage. That said going to GSL to compete would still be alot of fun and worthwhile especially fighting to keep your Code S salary. But its simply not the "best" in alot of respects and most people don't expect these players to dominate tournaments they enter anymore either. Or maybe it's because they practiced a ton and were the most naturally talented out of a huge pool of potential players. Sure, having access to the best players ever must have helped but even the lowliest B-teamer practiced full time for years and even harder after becoming a pro-gamer. How many foreigners practiced more than 50 hours a week for at least 6 month in Broodwar? It's a testament to Tyler's and Ret's talent and dedication that they came close to getting a licence. But if they had become programers they would have started as practice partners to the practice partners of these players. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
you can't just expect the union to mobilise a million men and send them marching together jam packed into the heart of the confederacy. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On December 27 2011 04:12 SagaZ wrote: People should really read the article before postiing, and try to understand it. It is true that some thing are not said in a very gentle way but the underlining argument is present. Also the discution being side tracked by all the trolls is a bit anoying. The argument here is, the competition of this new game is a farce because it has been proven in the other game that there are alot of players alot better than these guys. Nah, people understand the argument just fine. That's why they are reacting angrily. | ||
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
jesus christ you guys are piss me the fuck off. | ||
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Apollo_Shards
1210 Posts
On December 27 2011 05:08 darthfoley wrote: why is this fucking thread still open. all it is, is BW nostaligic people telling sc2 fans how shitty and skill less their game is, and sc2 fans scoffing at the notion that BW took more APM/practice. jesus christ you guys are piss me the fuck off. Yea, really, nothing out of 200 pages has come out but people just raging at each other. Just because the OP had some nice artwork doesnt mean it shoudnt be closed. | ||
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Linwelin
Ireland7554 Posts
On December 27 2011 05:08 darthfoley wrote: why is this fucking thread still open. all it is, is BW nostaligic people telling sc2 fans how shitty and skill less their game is, and sc2 fans scoffing at the notion that BW took more APM/practice. jesus christ you guys are piss me the fuck off. No one forces you to read it | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On December 27 2011 04:29 Big J wrote: So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2) Kinda hard for anyone to L2 not deathball when the AI and pathfinding hardlocks any X amount of unit to bunch up into the smallest ball possible. And if your argument is that pros should fight the dumb AI/Pathfinding to do so.... well that kinda goes against your hatred for actually having to control units doesn't it? Not to mention that mutastacking and Jangbi storms are actually fun and satisfying to execute (and to watch), meanwhile fighting the dumb AI to prevent your marines from trying to turn into a human boulder is not. | ||
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