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My letter to GOM, encouraging both sides to view this as a learning experience:
Dear GOM,
As a purchaser of the yearly pass, I'm writing to ask you respectfully to reconsider your decision to revoke Naniwa's GSL Code S seed. The recent incident seems to be the result of an unfortunate cultural misunderstanding. And rather than taking punitive action, GOM could use it as an educational experience: an opportunity for Westerners to gain a greater understanding of Korean cultural values, and vice versa.
To many Americans and Europeans, results are honor. We expect our competitors to try as hard as they can when it matters, and we do not mind if they conserve their effort when it does not. We also respect intellectual and emotional honesty. Facing Nestea in that situation, Naniwa knew that he would not be able to play at the top of his ability. Rather than play a match that he knew to be a sham, he decided to forfeit. Many Western viewers, myself included, do not fault him for this.
In Korea, the expectations are different. Competitors are expected to perform without regard for the stakes. I cannot say whether either value system is superior to the other, though I think each has its own strengths and weaknesses. But I do not think that Naniwa was fully aware of the offense that his actions would give to GOM and the Korean viewers. Many Western players--notably, Idra--often behave similarly in matches, and to Western fans, this adds to the enjoyment of the game.
In fact, for Westerners, actions like Idra's past decision to stop practicing, or his decision to quit the infamous MLG game against MMA, are far more unacceptable than Naniwa's forfeit. We value effort, but only when it matters. Naniwa worked very hard, tried his best, and only stopped when it was clear that he could not advance in the tournament.
Perhaps GOM could use this incident to educate Westerners about Korean values. I'm certain there is much for us to learn. But I believe this can be done in a way that does not place such a heavy burden on Naniwa and his fans. Perhaps, if you asked him to apologize for unwittingly offending Korean tournament organizers and viewers, he would do so, and players would know in the future that such behavior is unacceptable.
For many Western viewers, it is GOM's action, not Naniwa's, which more greatly undermines the integrity of competition. Naniwa decided not to play an inconsequential game. But GOM has prevented Naniwa--one of the top foreign competitors in Starcraft 2--from engaging in future meaningful competition with the greatest players from Korea. To many results-oriented Westerners, that is a far greater insult to competitive integrity than Naniwa's behavior.
So I wonder if both sides cannot come together, talk things over, and come to a mutual understanding that demonstrates Western respect for Korean values while maintaining the Westerner sense of the competitive integrity of the GSL. I see a great opportunity for a mutual learning experience.
I know that I would enjoy this upcoming season of GSL a good deal more if Naniwa--a foreign player who cares about winning and improvement as much as anyone in the world--were allowed to compete.
Best,
Chris aka "Winter"
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SlasherRod Breslau
Providence did not award Naniwa a Code S spot, only the Blizzard Cup. He was going to be given Code S, that which was revoked. Not as bad.
How is this much different anyway? He was going to play in Code S and now he's not. So when would he actually "get" the spot? When he sits down to play his first game?
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On December 15 2011 00:24 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +SlasherRod Breslau
Providence did not award Naniwa a Code S spot, only the Blizzard Cup. He was going to be given Code S, that which was revoked. Not as bad. How is this much different anyway? He was going to play in Code S and now he's not. So when would he actually "get" the spot? When he sits down to play his first game?
Read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208834¤tpage=128#2558
From MLG, to Complexity (his team at the time), to EG, to ESFI, to everyone at the F.Slasher show, Inside the Game show, State of the Game show, everyone thought that spot was Naniwa spot.
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On December 15 2011 00:23 Crake_ wrote:My letter to GOM, encouraging both sides to view this as a learning experience: + Show Spoiler +Dear GOM,
As a purchaser of the yearly pass, I'm writing to ask you respectfully to reconsider your decision to revoke Naniwa's GSL Code S seed. The recent incident seems to be the result of an unfortunate cultural misunderstanding. And rather than taking punitive action, GOM could use it as an educational experience: an opportunity for Westerners to gain a greater understanding of Korean cultural values, and vice versa.
To many Americans and Europeans, results are honor. We expect our competitors to try as hard as they can when it matters, and we do not mind if they conserve their effort when it does not. We also respect intellectual and emotional honesty. Facing Nestea in that situation, Naniwa knew that he would not be able to play at the top of his ability. Rather than play a match that he knew to be a sham, he decided to forfeit. Many Western viewers, myself included, do not fault him for this.
In Korea, the expectations are different. Competitors are expected to perform without regard for the stakes. I cannot say whether either value system is superior to the other, though I think each has its own strengths and weaknesses. But I do not think that Naniwa was fully aware of the offense that his actions would give to GOM and the Korean viewers. Many Western players--notably, Idra--often behave similarly in matches, and to Western fans, this adds to the enjoyment of the game.
In fact, for Westerners, actions like Idra's past decision to stop practicing, or his decision to quit the infamous MLG game against MMA, are far more unacceptable than Naniwa's forfeit. We value effort, but only when it matters. Naniwa worked very hard, tried his best, and only stopped when it was clear that he could not advance in the tournament.
Perhaps GOM could use this incident to educate Westerners about Korean values. I'm certain there is much for us to learn. But I believe this can be done in a way that does not place such a heavy burden on Naniwa and his fans. Perhaps, if you asked him to apologize for unwittingly offending Korean tournament organizers and viewers, he would do so, and players would know in the future that such behavior is unacceptable.
For many Western viewers, it is GOM's action, not Naniwa's, which more greatly undermines the integrity of competition. Naniwa decided not to play an inconsequential game. But GOM has prevented Naniwa--one of the top foreign competitors in Starcraft 2--from engaging in future meaningful competition with the greatest players from Korea. To many results-oriented Westerners, that is a far greater insult to competitive integrity than Naniwa's behavior.
So I wonder if both sides cannot come together, talk things over, and come to a mutual understanding that demonstrates Western respect for Korean values while maintaining the Westerner sense of the competitive integrity of the GSL. I see a great opportunity for a mutual learning experience.
I know that I would enjoy this upcoming season of GSL a good deal more if Naniwa--a foreign player who cares about winning and improvement as much as anyone in the world--were allowed to compete.
Best,
Chris aka "Winter"
Very good post dude, it's all containing very good information and thoughts.
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I hope he keeps on fighting, no matter how hard it is.
Naniwa is code S quality and I hope he shows his skill to the koreans who got "offended" by his action, by fighting back into Code S.
Gogo
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I seriously think Koreans need to choose, either they remain a closed community like it still is in SC1 or they integrate themselves to the international scene. Nowdays they want to do things their way, but also to get our money.
The fact that the world wide starcraft community is called foreing community is so insulting that along with this narrow minded call, i no longer have any interest in GSL.
Koreans talk about their closed sense of respect, but show none to foreingners. Either you wanna do business, or you don't. Just choose Korea.
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Just woke up to hear this. REALLY pissed.
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On December 15 2011 00:35 Moxi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:23 Crake_ wrote:My letter to GOM, encouraging both sides to view this as a learning experience: + Show Spoiler +Dear GOM,
As a purchaser of the yearly pass, I'm writing to ask you respectfully to reconsider your decision to revoke Naniwa's GSL Code S seed. The recent incident seems to be the result of an unfortunate cultural misunderstanding. And rather than taking punitive action, GOM could use it as an educational experience: an opportunity for Westerners to gain a greater understanding of Korean cultural values, and vice versa.
To many Americans and Europeans, results are honor. We expect our competitors to try as hard as they can when it matters, and we do not mind if they conserve their effort when it does not. We also respect intellectual and emotional honesty. Facing Nestea in that situation, Naniwa knew that he would not be able to play at the top of his ability. Rather than play a match that he knew to be a sham, he decided to forfeit. Many Western viewers, myself included, do not fault him for this.
In Korea, the expectations are different. Competitors are expected to perform without regard for the stakes. I cannot say whether either value system is superior to the other, though I think each has its own strengths and weaknesses. But I do not think that Naniwa was fully aware of the offense that his actions would give to GOM and the Korean viewers. Many Western players--notably, Idra--often behave similarly in matches, and to Western fans, this adds to the enjoyment of the game.
In fact, for Westerners, actions like Idra's past decision to stop practicing, or his decision to quit the infamous MLG game against MMA, are far more unacceptable than Naniwa's forfeit. We value effort, but only when it matters. Naniwa worked very hard, tried his best, and only stopped when it was clear that he could not advance in the tournament.
Perhaps GOM could use this incident to educate Westerners about Korean values. I'm certain there is much for us to learn. But I believe this can be done in a way that does not place such a heavy burden on Naniwa and his fans. Perhaps, if you asked him to apologize for unwittingly offending Korean tournament organizers and viewers, he would do so, and players would know in the future that such behavior is unacceptable.
For many Western viewers, it is GOM's action, not Naniwa's, which more greatly undermines the integrity of competition. Naniwa decided not to play an inconsequential game. But GOM has prevented Naniwa--one of the top foreign competitors in Starcraft 2--from engaging in future meaningful competition with the greatest players from Korea. To many results-oriented Westerners, that is a far greater insult to competitive integrity than Naniwa's behavior.
So I wonder if both sides cannot come together, talk things over, and come to a mutual understanding that demonstrates Western respect for Korean values while maintaining the Westerner sense of the competitive integrity of the GSL. I see a great opportunity for a mutual learning experience.
I know that I would enjoy this upcoming season of GSL a good deal more if Naniwa--a foreign player who cares about winning and improvement as much as anyone in the world--were allowed to compete.
Best,
Chris aka "Winter" Very good post dude, it's all containing very good information and thoughts.
Would you please not speak in the 'we' form? I, for one, don't agree with Naniwa's actions. I think GOM is in their right by not giving him this Code S spot: They do use this as a learning experience, by showing the world not to mess with them.
That being said, I have faith in Naniwa getting through the up and downs! Gogo Nani fightingg
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On December 15 2011 00:23 Crake_ wrote:
My letter to GOM, encouraging both sides to view this as a learning experience:
Dear GOM,
As a purchaser of the yearly pass, I'm writing to ask you respectfully to reconsider your decision to revoke Naniwa's GSL Code S seed. The recent incident seems to be the result of an unfortunate cultural misunderstanding. And rather than taking punitive action, GOM could use it as an educational experience: an opportunity for Westerners to gain a greater understanding of Korean cultural values, and vice versa.
To many Americans and Europeans, results are honor. We expect our competitors to try as hard as they can when it matters, and we do not mind if they conserve their effort when it does not. We also respect intellectual and emotional honesty. Facing Nestea in that situation, Naniwa knew that he would not be able to play at the top of his ability. Rather than play a match that he knew to be a sham, he decided to forfeit. Many Western viewers, myself included, do not fault him for this.
In Korea, the expectations are different. Competitors are expected to perform without regard for the stakes. I cannot say whether either value system is superior to the other, though I think each has its own strengths and weaknesses. But I do not think that Naniwa was fully aware of the offense that his actions would give to GOM and the Korean viewers. Many Western players--notably, Idra--often behave similarly in matches, and to Western fans, this adds to the enjoyment of the game.
In fact, for Westerners, actions like Idra's past decision to stop practicing, or his decision to quit the infamous MLG game against MMA, are far more unacceptable than Naniwa's forfeit. We value effort, but only when it matters. Naniwa worked very hard, tried his best, and only stopped when it was clear that he could not advance in the tournament.
Perhaps GOM could use this incident to educate Westerners about Korean values. I'm certain there is much for us to learn. But I believe this can be done in a way that does not place such a heavy burden on Naniwa and his fans. Perhaps, if you asked him to apologize for unwittingly offending Korean tournament organizers and viewers, he would do so, and players would know in the future that such behavior is unacceptable.
For many Western viewers, it is GOM's action, not Naniwa's, which more greatly undermines the integrity of competition. Naniwa decided not to play an inconsequential game. But GOM has prevented Naniwa--one of the top foreign competitors in Starcraft 2--from engaging in future meaningful competition with the greatest players from Korea. To many results-oriented Westerners, that is a far greater insult to competitive integrity than Naniwa's behavior.
So I wonder if both sides cannot come together, talk things over, and come to a mutual understanding that demonstrates Western respect for Korean values while maintaining the Westerner sense of the competitive integrity of the GSL. I see a great opportunity for a mutual learning experience.
I know that I would enjoy this upcoming season of GSL a good deal more if Naniwa--a foreign player who cares about winning and improvement as much as anyone in the world--were allowed to compete.
Best,
Chris aka "Winter"
What the hell is this bullshit. You are expressing your own opinion as "facts" for most of the foreign scene. Get a grip.
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We still love you Nani <3
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On December 15 2011 02:06 Kira__ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:23 Crake_ wrote:
My letter to GOM, encouraging both sides to view this as a learning experience:
Dear GOM,
As a purchaser of the yearly pass, I'm writing to ask you respectfully to reconsider your decision to revoke Naniwa's GSL Code S seed. The recent incident seems to be the result of an unfortunate cultural misunderstanding. And rather than taking punitive action, GOM could use it as an educational experience: an opportunity for Westerners to gain a greater understanding of Korean cultural values, and vice versa.
To many Americans and Europeans, results are honor. We expect our competitors to try as hard as they can when it matters, and we do not mind if they conserve their effort when it does not. We also respect intellectual and emotional honesty. Facing Nestea in that situation, Naniwa knew that he would not be able to play at the top of his ability. Rather than play a match that he knew to be a sham, he decided to forfeit. Many Western viewers, myself included, do not fault him for this.
In Korea, the expectations are different. Competitors are expected to perform without regard for the stakes. I cannot say whether either value system is superior to the other, though I think each has its own strengths and weaknesses. But I do not think that Naniwa was fully aware of the offense that his actions would give to GOM and the Korean viewers. Many Western players--notably, Idra--often behave similarly in matches, and to Western fans, this adds to the enjoyment of the game.
In fact, for Westerners, actions like Idra's past decision to stop practicing, or his decision to quit the infamous MLG game against MMA, are far more unacceptable than Naniwa's forfeit. We value effort, but only when it matters. Naniwa worked very hard, tried his best, and only stopped when it was clear that he could not advance in the tournament.
Perhaps GOM could use this incident to educate Westerners about Korean values. I'm certain there is much for us to learn. But I believe this can be done in a way that does not place such a heavy burden on Naniwa and his fans. Perhaps, if you asked him to apologize for unwittingly offending Korean tournament organizers and viewers, he would do so, and players would know in the future that such behavior is unacceptable.
For many Western viewers, it is GOM's action, not Naniwa's, which more greatly undermines the integrity of competition. Naniwa decided not to play an inconsequential game. But GOM has prevented Naniwa--one of the top foreign competitors in Starcraft 2--from engaging in future meaningful competition with the greatest players from Korea. To many results-oriented Westerners, that is a far greater insult to competitive integrity than Naniwa's behavior.
So I wonder if both sides cannot come together, talk things over, and come to a mutual understanding that demonstrates Western respect for Korean values while maintaining the Westerner sense of the competitive integrity of the GSL. I see a great opportunity for a mutual learning experience.
I know that I would enjoy this upcoming season of GSL a good deal more if Naniwa--a foreign player who cares about winning and improvement as much as anyone in the world--were allowed to compete.
Best,
Chris aka "Winter" What the hell is this bullshit. You are expressing your own opinion as "facts" for most of the foreign scene. Get a grip.
Sorry for the confusion. I should have said "To many (but certainly not all, and perhaps not even most) Americans and Europeans..." I wasn't speaking on behalf of all Westerners--merely the ones who are not overly troubled by, or at least understand, Naniwa's actions. The last thing I wanted was to pick a fight, which is why I posted this in the Naniwa fan club, presumably to be read by his supporters, and not the general issue thread.
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On December 15 2011 02:06 Kira__ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:23 Crake_ wrote:
My letter to GOM, encouraging both sides to view this as a learning experience:
Dear GOM,
As a purchaser of the yearly pass, I'm writing to ask you respectfully to reconsider your decision to revoke Naniwa's GSL Code S seed. The recent incident seems to be the result of an unfortunate cultural misunderstanding. And rather than taking punitive action, GOM could use it as an educational experience: an opportunity for Westerners to gain a greater understanding of Korean cultural values, and vice versa.
To many Americans and Europeans, results are honor. We expect our competitors to try as hard as they can when it matters, and we do not mind if they conserve their effort when it does not. We also respect intellectual and emotional honesty. Facing Nestea in that situation, Naniwa knew that he would not be able to play at the top of his ability. Rather than play a match that he knew to be a sham, he decided to forfeit. Many Western viewers, myself included, do not fault him for this.
In Korea, the expectations are different. Competitors are expected to perform without regard for the stakes. I cannot say whether either value system is superior to the other, though I think each has its own strengths and weaknesses. But I do not think that Naniwa was fully aware of the offense that his actions would give to GOM and the Korean viewers. Many Western players--notably, Idra--often behave similarly in matches, and to Western fans, this adds to the enjoyment of the game.
In fact, for Westerners, actions like Idra's past decision to stop practicing, or his decision to quit the infamous MLG game against MMA, are far more unacceptable than Naniwa's forfeit. We value effort, but only when it matters. Naniwa worked very hard, tried his best, and only stopped when it was clear that he could not advance in the tournament.
Perhaps GOM could use this incident to educate Westerners about Korean values. I'm certain there is much for us to learn. But I believe this can be done in a way that does not place such a heavy burden on Naniwa and his fans. Perhaps, if you asked him to apologize for unwittingly offending Korean tournament organizers and viewers, he would do so, and players would know in the future that such behavior is unacceptable.
For many Western viewers, it is GOM's action, not Naniwa's, which more greatly undermines the integrity of competition. Naniwa decided not to play an inconsequential game. But GOM has prevented Naniwa--one of the top foreign competitors in Starcraft 2--from engaging in future meaningful competition with the greatest players from Korea. To many results-oriented Westerners, that is a far greater insult to competitive integrity than Naniwa's behavior.
So I wonder if both sides cannot come together, talk things over, and come to a mutual understanding that demonstrates Western respect for Korean values while maintaining the Westerner sense of the competitive integrity of the GSL. I see a great opportunity for a mutual learning experience.
I know that I would enjoy this upcoming season of GSL a good deal more if Naniwa--a foreign player who cares about winning and improvement as much as anyone in the world--were allowed to compete.
Best,
Chris aka "Winter" What the hell is this bullshit. You are expressing your own opinion as "facts" for most of the foreign scene. Get a grip.
"For many western viewers"...
I would say that he was right. Is opinions is shared by many people on the western scene. That's a fact. Many don't mean "most", or "all"... it means many.
So learn to read, please.
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"In fact, for Westerners, actions like Idra's past decision to stop practicing, or his decision to quit the infamous MLG game against MMA, are far more unacceptable than Naniwa's forfeit."
"learn to read please"
I can play that game too.
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Sign me up.
I'm sure he can fight his way through the qualifier and show them their stupidity.
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On December 15 2011 02:20 Ravomat wrote:
Sign me up.
I'm sure he can fight his way through the qualifier and show them their stupidity.
I hope he will as well but this is a huge blow and many wouldnt even play now I bet. 
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On December 15 2011 02:18 Kira__ wrote:
"In fact, for Westerners, actions like Idra's past decision to stop practicing, or his decision to quit the infamous MLG game against MMA, are far more unacceptable than Naniwa's forfeit."
"learn to read please"
I can play that game too.
That completely false, false like to a point it may be considered a very successful troll (cause it annoys and angers me)
If you think that you probably dont understand the two situations fully, or you have a very large bias
there are just so many reasons that statement is wrong its like painful (talking about the for westeners thing)
+ Show Spoiler +I DIDNT WANNA SAY ANYTHING BUT JUST GOD I COULDNT HELP MYSELF
As a more relevant point,
I hope naniwa learns to act more "professionally" and comes back and qualifies for code A, but putting aside all the drama (and my own personal dislike for his play style) He is a really good player who could represent the skill of the foreign scene well and because he is a great player i hope he learns what he can and comes back better than ever
edit: clarification
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On December 15 2011 02:18 Kira__ wrote:
"In fact, for Westerners, actions like Idra's past decision to stop practicing, or his decision to quit the infamous MLG game against MMA, are far more unacceptable than Naniwa's forfeit."
"learn to read please"
I can play that game too.
First, apologies to the staff for inadvertently starting a flame war in the fan club.
Now, on to textual interpretation. When you excerpt a sentence, read it in the context of the whole piece. I introduced the use of the first-person plural "we" with the phrase "many Americans and Europeans." Many does not mean most or all. I end that same paragraph with the sentence "Many Western viewers, myself included, do not fault him for this." Here I clearly establish that I am not speaking for all Western viewers.
So when, two paragraphs down, I state "In fact, for Westerners, actions like Idra's past decision to stop practicing, or his decision to quit the infamous MLG game against MMA, are far more unacceptable than Naniwa's forfeit," I already have established the class of persons for whom I claim to speak. I do not change my scope by saying "for all Westerners," nor do I say that it is a clear and inarguable universal Western value--which I might have if I had been speaking about, for instance, individual freedom. This whole paragraph is an extension of the letter's first thought--that many Westerners have a different cultural value--and as such it is not necessary to continually remind the reader that I am speaking on behalf of only "many Westerners." Doing so is both logically unnecessary and stylistically undesirable. Though perhaps inserting "many" before "Westerners" would help some readers, such as yourself, remember what I made perfectly clear a few lines before.
Then I begin talking about competitive integrity. With this new thought, I reiterate that I am not speaking for all Western viewers: "For many Western viewers, it is GOM's action, not Naniwa's, which more greatly undermines the integrity of competition."
Finally, this letter is an editorial. It is by its very nature personal opinion, not fact. I do make clear that it is my opinion that some Westerners--probably the ones who support Naniwa's action--think this way. Here there is an opening for disagreement, and I welcome discussion on this point.
But your reading of my letter is sorely mistaken.
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I'm fine with your opinion on the matter, each to his own. I do have a problem with writing a letter to them and even expressing your own opinion as the opinion of "many", when the "vocal minority" is probably a lot closer to the truth.
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I don't know about you guys, but Naniwa getting his Code S spot taken away is heart wrenching for me.
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EPT
