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On December 23 2012 00:56 hillman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 00:46 Consummate wrote:
The problem with the game is that P and Z have insane unit production abilities while T don't, so when it hits late game, T ALWAYS have a disadvantage with respect to pushing power. Z and P will insta remax their army and do another 200/200 push while T are stuck on around 170/200 or something. T lack the flexibility in unit composition unlike Z and P, where for Z, they can build every unit from 1 structure which makes predicting army composition literally impossible, while P get most of their important units from Gateways (with only needing a few Robos for collosi.. However slightly changed in HotS).
Terran? They have to try their best to estimate opponent's unit composition and mass produce barracks/factories/starports to counter it, wrong production choice and your unit composition becomes an expensive paperweight. With how bad mech is these days (until HotS when we will see if it's become a lot better), you're basically pigeonholed into mass bio anyway.
Add into the fact that T have the WORST late game armies, and it's a recipe for the race being pretty bad. I would not be surprised in a few years time when the game is figured out - that we will look back and think "how the fuck were Terran even winning games?" Isn't it statistically proven that the majority of T's wins are from early game anyway? I don't see T's winning in any macro game unless they do drops that do much more damage than they should have done.
Worst late game armies + Slowest unit production + Worst flexibility in unit composition. That is Terran. Terran can only fix the unit flexibility issue if they spend thousands of resources into building structures which isn't viable at the highest levels of play unless you're very far ahead. It seems these days that playing aggressive or macro is high risk for medium reward while P and Z standard is always medium risk for medium reward. Yeah but Terran basically doesn't need more than a handful of drones late game if they prepare and make enough CCs. Zerg NEEDS at least 66 drones to survive usually. That's about 30-40 in army supply that Terran can make armies with. But I agree with a lot you are saying there, the only reason I think Terran won so much before was the economic advantage, essentially free economy. Now other races have figured out how to survive the earlier pressure and thrive. Whoever it was that just beat Leenock in Fight Club was playing a really aggressive and cool style of terran. I don't think MKP was playing inspired against Stephano at all.
It's rare to see that these days because of T having late game army issues. This is because when your opponent maxes, they can just non stop push. To start sacrificing SCVs (to the point you only need roughly 30 SCVs where 18 of those are on gas), you need around 8 orbital commands (10+ is ideal), 8 oribtal commands is 4400 resources. You just don't have the time and money to be able to do that now.
A year back or so in TvZ it was possible where Z's late game composition vs the standard marine/marauder/tank/medivac was only zergling/baneling/ultralisk/muta. The T army could be cost efficient and wipe that army if they were in a good position. Nowadays? T are dealing with the ridiculously cost efficient Broodlord/corruptor/infestor which nor T or P have any semblance of a cost efficient counter to.
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You do that, soulReaver - disregard away. I actually think they did a little too much nerfing to terran...followed by some necessary zerg buffs. The result has lead to some tough sledding for terrans. But Yeah, I play Zerg so I'm aware of what happened in the patch 6 months ago. It's funny though, because I remember a time when zerg was stuck on two base and it was everything we could do to break out of the terran contain...now it has swung the other way and Scarlett takes 2 bases at a time against MKP.
But MKP usually expands up to three base nearly as quickly as zerg most of the time...then gets free mineral mining with MULES. It's not an economy issue, it's what he does with it. Terran should never get caught off guard, they have free scouting...perfect information, especially late game. And yet I've seen MKP gets surprised by broodlords and drop 3 starports to compensate...when a terran misses the Ultra switch and gets raped they blame it on balance...get beat without mass infestor, blame it on balance.
Watch beat Sting Leenock, how could he win if it's so unfair? MKP used to be agressive like that, which is why I enjoyed watching him...haven't seen that out of him lately. Sting just poured on the early aggression and never let up - he basically said "ok, late game sucks right now, I'll make sure it doesn't get that far". Either way, hopefully HoTS will make everyone feel better....still a toss up though on that.
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Ro8 seems the new standard for MKP >.<
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i like mkp, but calling stephano a shittyEUzerg, is just bullshit.
he is one of the best players of the world, even when he´s not in best form, he winning more games then other players on there peak.
there´s no shame in loosing to him. and we all know that mkp isn´t the king anymore he used to be in the past.
but i'm interested in seeing mkp in hots.
sry for my english skills <_>"
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옛 영광에 취한 이는 죽은자 라는데.... 내년엔 잘하자~~~~예전보다더ㅎㅎㅎㅎ
from his twitter, google translate says that he is dead drunk.. xD
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On December 23 2012 02:38 ZerphyR wrote:
옛 영광에 취한 이는 죽은자 라는데.... 내년엔 잘하자~~~~예전보다더ㅎㅎㅎㅎ
from his twitter, google translate says that he is dead drunk.. xD
As he should be! Great tournament run and so fun listening to him cast :D
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On December 23 2012 02:40 Cokefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 02:38 ZerphyR wrote:
옛 영광에 취한 이는 죽은자 라는데.... 내년엔 잘하자~~~~예전보다더ㅎㅎㅎㅎ
from his twitter, google translate says that he is dead drunk.. xD As he should be! Great tournament run and so fun listening to him cast :D
Wouldn't exactly call it a "great tournament run" seeing as he beat nobody worth mentioning.
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On December 23 2012 02:52 Hiea wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 02:40 Cokefreak wrote:On December 23 2012 02:38 ZerphyR wrote:
옛 영광에 취한 이는 죽은자 라는데.... 내년엔 잘하자~~~~예전보다더ㅎㅎㅎㅎ
from his twitter, google translate says that he is dead drunk.. xD As he should be! Great tournament run and so fun listening to him cast :D Wouldn't exactly call it a "great tournament run" seeing as he beat nobody worth mentioning.
well ro8 is kind of good, so it was a good run, are oyu even a fanif you whine about someone getting to ro8?
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On December 23 2012 02:52 Hiea wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 02:40 Cokefreak wrote:On December 23 2012 02:38 ZerphyR wrote:
옛 영광에 취한 이는 죽은자 라는데.... 내년엔 잘하자~~~~예전보다더ㅎㅎㅎㅎ
from his twitter, google translate says that he is dead drunk.. xD As he should be! Great tournament run and so fun listening to him cast :D Wouldn't exactly call it a "great tournament run" seeing as he beat nobody worth mentioning.
I would. No shame in losing to Stephano.
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Hmm, a bit disappointed in the result, but glad to see he's just getting hammered now  Strange, I figured he was just hiding builds against ret and xlord, but he just used the same 1 rax FE into mech, and then the CC first into 3CC's. I would have liked to see that build he used against Goswser in their first match set 2. It was very Polt-inspired and just abused the crap out of greedy Zergs.
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France13022 Posts
On December 23 2012 06:05 MangoSnap wrote:Hmm, a bit disappointed in the result, but glad to see he's just getting hammered now Strange, I figured he was just hiding builds against ret and xlord, but he just used the same 1 rax FE into mech, and then the CC first into 3CC's. I would have liked to see that build he used against Goswser in their first match set 2. It was very Polt-inspired and just abused the crap out of greedy Zergs.
There is no such things as hiding builds anymore. Especially not for terrans lol.
Every variety we had got shut down by blizzard.
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On December 23 2012 06:06 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 06:05 MangoSnap wrote:Hmm, a bit disappointed in the result, but glad to see he's just getting hammered now Strange, I figured he was just hiding builds against ret and xlord, but he just used the same 1 rax FE into mech, and then the CC first into 3CC's. I would have liked to see that build he used against Goswser in their first match set 2. It was very Polt-inspired and just abused the crap out of greedy Zergs. There is no such things as hiding builds anymore. Especially not for terrans lol. Every variety we had got shut down by blizzard.
Haha, true, it's sad to see that top tier Korean Terrans (not just MKP) have to use their best builds to get past fairly "easy" foreigner zergs.
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France13022 Posts
On December 23 2012 06:08 MangoSnap wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 06:06 Poopi wrote:On December 23 2012 06:05 MangoSnap wrote:Hmm, a bit disappointed in the result, but glad to see he's just getting hammered now Strange, I figured he was just hiding builds against ret and xlord, but he just used the same 1 rax FE into mech, and then the CC first into 3CC's. I would have liked to see that build he used against Goswser in their first match set 2. It was very Polt-inspired and just abused the crap out of greedy Zergs. There is no such things as hiding builds anymore. Especially not for terrans lol. Every variety we had got shut down by blizzard. Haha, true, it's sad to see that top tier Korean Terrans (not just MKP) have to use their best builds to get past fairly "easy" foreigner zergs.
MKP got beaten by a trash mid master zerg on ladder when streaming with reis account lol. It was an allin on daybreak but it tells something about sc2 when such a player can even lose a game against such less skilled opponents (I'm talking about volatility not balance here, could have happened in other match-ups).
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On December 23 2012 06:11 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 06:08 MangoSnap wrote:On December 23 2012 06:06 Poopi wrote:On December 23 2012 06:05 MangoSnap wrote:Hmm, a bit disappointed in the result, but glad to see he's just getting hammered now Strange, I figured he was just hiding builds against ret and xlord, but he just used the same 1 rax FE into mech, and then the CC first into 3CC's. I would have liked to see that build he used against Goswser in their first match set 2. It was very Polt-inspired and just abused the crap out of greedy Zergs. There is no such things as hiding builds anymore. Especially not for terrans lol. Every variety we had got shut down by blizzard. Haha, true, it's sad to see that top tier Korean Terrans (not just MKP) have to use their best builds to get past fairly "easy" foreigner zergs. MKP got beaten by a trash mid master zerg on ladder when streaming with reis account lol. It was an allin on daybreak but it tells something about sc2 when such a player can even lose a game against such less skilled opponents (I'm talking about volatility not balance here, could have happened in other match-ups).
Yeah, I don't know enough about balancing races or even maps, but you described it well as just being so volatile.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
meeeeeh dammit mkp, go back to korea and spam 50 games with bboongbboong or something ;p
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On December 23 2012 07:59 opterown wrote:
meeeeeh dammit mkp, go back to korea and spam 50 games with bboongbboong or something ;p
No, go have a long talk with Bomber.
Bomber best TvZ atm.
Also, atleast MKP can as usual have the winning record against the champion :D seeing as he's 4-1 against Snute on EU ladder the past 3-4 days.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
nah don't talk with bomber, that incosnsitency might rub off haha. mkp is still decently consistent and getting top8 in GSLs
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On December 23 2012 08:15 opterown wrote:
nah don't talk with bomber, that incosnsitency might rub off haha. mkp is still decently consistent and getting top8 in GSLs
Inconsistency or not, Bomber has some of the sickest TvZ in the business right now.
I wish MKP was 10% as smart ingame as he is in group selection...
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On December 23 2012 08:13 Hiea wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 07:59 opterown wrote:
meeeeeh dammit mkp, go back to korea and spam 50 games with bboongbboong or something ;p No, go have a long talk with Bomber. Bomber best TvZ atm. Also, atleast MKP can as usual have the winning record against the champion :D seeing as he's 4-1 against Snute on EU ladder the past 3-4 days.
Meh, I would say Polt or Gumiho if you've seen him lately have the best TvZ. MKP seems to be practicing a lot, we'll see what he can do to improve. 
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France13022 Posts
On December 23 2012 08:25 Hiea wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 08:15 opterown wrote:
nah don't talk with bomber, that incosnsitency might rub off haha. mkp is still decently consistent and getting top8 in GSLs Inconsistency or not, Bomber has some of the sickest TvZ in the business right now. I wish MKP was 10% as smart ingame as he is in group selection...
Bomber said semi-jokingly (and in his mind he wasn't joking) that he isn't really happy with some "capacities" the zerg has (he named an unit). And as good as Polt and Bomber TvZ are, they got defeated in the end in TvZ. MKP also beat some good zergs I believe in GSL, but it's not enough.
Bomber is far from doing what TaeJa did in the summer and if the TvZ problem could be resolved talking to other terrans it would be known by then lol.
What I wish is that MKP would be as wise as LucifroN when it comes to the way he handles the game, but MKP's crazyness is a part of him.
I was serious when I said that maybe MKP continuously CC in the low ground becauses it is more impressive when you win with that. That's a feeling you have a lot when you watch MKP. When he goes away with some things it looks amazing, when it fails it looks foolish. It's his way of playing starcraft. Which is why I think it won't change over time. At least not soon. When he gets older it might.
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EPT
