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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On March 29 2011 07:07 Tschis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 06:53 Jotoco wrote:On March 29 2011 05:59 Tschis wrote:On March 29 2011 05:41 pak150 wrote:On March 29 2011 05:08 Kralle333 wrote:On March 28 2011 23:12 freetgy wrote:On March 28 2011 22:09 DoubleReed wrote:
I mean in game 1 he made like 20 corruptors or something and STILL wasn't able to kill the void rays and colossus. The deathball just seemed unstoppable. I don't even think it was maxed.
20 Corrupters are not enough, Corrupters get countered by Voidrays so much since they do way more damage, what Idra should have done is to focus the colossus and remax with hydras. Mutalisk/Hydra most likely would have fared way alot better than Corrupter/roach/Hydra Hydras destroy Voidrays so cost effectively that it gets ugly. in the end he just waited to long and didn't put his economic advantage into a tactical advantage as Game 2 proved. I dont understand why people dont use mutas. Cheaper in gas, isnt countered by voidrays, isn't countered by stalkers directly and can hit colossus. Doesn't guardian shield substantially lower muta damage? I think there were too many stalkers there, mutas would melt pretty quickly, and with guardian shield their damage would be really low (though they damage multiple targets) I don't know how he could have stoped that death ball... //tx In my experience (lowly plat/gold leagues) Mutas absolutely demolish VR/Colo. Use Mutas + Pure speedlings with upgrades. I prefer going armor ups, since most units that hit air do several low damage hits. Of course it may not translate to Idra's pro level, but I think it is better than corruptors. Specially since it is easier to snipe any VR/Colo that walks too far from the stalkers. Except that the colossus would melt half of the lings before they could hit anything, and the Stalkers with VR would melt the Mutas before they could kill the colossus. //tx
You know you could actually make an effort in the reply instead of just spitting this, right?
With the amount of minerals you have you can make a shit ton of speedlings, and mutas can kill VR/Colo relatively fast. Not only that, but you won't throw yourself headlong into the protoss ball. You try to snipe as many stray units as you can before engaging, and try to flank so your lings aren't so bunched together.
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On March 29 2011 07:32 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 07:07 Tschis wrote:On March 29 2011 06:53 Jotoco wrote:On March 29 2011 05:59 Tschis wrote:On March 29 2011 05:41 pak150 wrote:On March 29 2011 05:08 Kralle333 wrote:On March 28 2011 23:12 freetgy wrote:On March 28 2011 22:09 DoubleReed wrote:
I mean in game 1 he made like 20 corruptors or something and STILL wasn't able to kill the void rays and colossus. The deathball just seemed unstoppable. I don't even think it was maxed.
20 Corrupters are not enough, Corrupters get countered by Voidrays so much since they do way more damage, what Idra should have done is to focus the colossus and remax with hydras. Mutalisk/Hydra most likely would have fared way alot better than Corrupter/roach/Hydra Hydras destroy Voidrays so cost effectively that it gets ugly. in the end he just waited to long and didn't put his economic advantage into a tactical advantage as Game 2 proved. I dont understand why people dont use mutas. Cheaper in gas, isnt countered by voidrays, isn't countered by stalkers directly and can hit colossus. Doesn't guardian shield substantially lower muta damage? I think there were too many stalkers there, mutas would melt pretty quickly, and with guardian shield their damage would be really low (though they damage multiple targets) I don't know how he could have stoped that death ball... //tx In my experience (lowly plat/gold leagues) Mutas absolutely demolish VR/Colo. Use Mutas + Pure speedlings with upgrades. I prefer going armor ups, since most units that hit air do several low damage hits. Of course it may not translate to Idra's pro level, but I think it is better than corruptors. Specially since it is easier to snipe any VR/Colo that walks too far from the stalkers. Except that the colossus would melt half of the lings before they could hit anything, and the Stalkers with VR would melt the Mutas before they could kill the colossus. //tx You know you could actually make an effort in the reply instead of just spitting this, right? With the amount of minerals you have you can make a shit ton of speedlings, and mutas can kill VR/Colo relatively fast. Not only that, but you won't throw yourself headlong into the protoss ball. You try to snipe as many stray units as you can before engaging, and try to flank so your lings aren't so bunched together.
Unless these are fully-upped lings they simply aren't going to do much damage before being roasted. You have to kill the colossus before doing something like that. I don't care if you flank. Though I think the lings would be better to for counterattacking and possibly basetrading.
Just because you have a ton of minerals does not mean that lings are the way to go.
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I think one of the major problems is with thinking about defeating the deathballs in terms of countering their unit composition with your blob vs their blob. Against most protoss deathballs zerg will lose in a straight up fight no matter the composition.
Notice how in set 2 Idra focused on the weak mobility of the Protoss deathball by alternating between multiple spots. The problem in the first set was because he couldn't penetrate the defenses to then spread out the protoss army. He made a few attempts, but they were quickly deflected.
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On March 29 2011 07:39 EscPlan9 wrote:
I think one of the major problems is with thinking about defeating the deathballs in terms of countering their unit composition with your blob vs their blob. Against most protoss deathballs zerg will lose in a straight up fight no matter the composition.
Notice how in set 2 Idra focused on the weak mobility of the Protoss deathball by alternating between multiple spots. The problem in the first set was because he couldn't penetrate the defenses to then spread out the protoss army. He made a few attempts, but they were quickly deflected.
But he never fought the deathball in game 2. He killed and punished Cruncher before he ever got going.
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I know how to beat the deathball in Game 1. 20 Neural Parasite 200/200 energy infestors. Hydras and Corruptors.
Neural Parasite the deathball. You now have a 400/400 Deathball for about 11 seconds.
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On March 29 2011 07:41 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 07:39 EscPlan9 wrote:
I think one of the major problems is with thinking about defeating the deathballs in terms of countering their unit composition with your blob vs their blob. Against most protoss deathballs zerg will lose in a straight up fight no matter the composition.
Notice how in set 2 Idra focused on the weak mobility of the Protoss deathball by alternating between multiple spots. The problem in the first set was because he couldn't penetrate the defenses to then spread out the protoss army. He made a few attempts, but they were quickly deflected. But he never fought the deathball in game 2. He killed and punished Cruncher before he ever got going.
True, Idra brought the pressure much earlier. I think that would helped for sure in the 1st game.
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What IdrA did in game 2 was all-in to a good protoss. If Cruncher held it off (or scouted it sooner) then idra was pretty damn screwed.
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On March 29 2011 10:51 Mailing wrote:
What IdrA did in game 2 was all-in to a good protoss. If Cruncher held it off (or scouted it sooner) then idra was pretty damn screwed.
How was that an all-in? IdrA was running off more bases than his opponent, was teching with roaches while the hydra drops were happening and if Cruncher had been able to fend off the drops properly he would have stopped and played standard.
The definition of all-in would be that there is no next step; from where I was watching, IdrA was never in a situation like that.
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Yeah pretty sure IdrA had twice the supply ten minutes into the game. Definitely not an all in. Game 3 though, not sure what he was doing, he scouted the rush coming twice but kept making drones both times until it was two late. I think if he had played it safe he would have won pretty easily.
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On March 29 2011 05:26 Clontarf wrote:
I'll be a fan as long as he keeps having the occasional game like game 2 in TSL. I'll remember that series because of that game not the end result.
Agreed. Well said. That was an excellent game :-)
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On March 29 2011 07:07 Tschis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 06:53 Jotoco wrote:On March 29 2011 05:59 Tschis wrote:On March 29 2011 05:41 pak150 wrote:On March 29 2011 05:08 Kralle333 wrote:On March 28 2011 23:12 freetgy wrote:On March 28 2011 22:09 DoubleReed wrote:
I mean in game 1 he made like 20 corruptors or something and STILL wasn't able to kill the void rays and colossus. The deathball just seemed unstoppable. I don't even think it was maxed.
20 Corrupters are not enough, Corrupters get countered by Voidrays so much since they do way more damage, what Idra should have done is to focus the colossus and remax with hydras. Mutalisk/Hydra most likely would have fared way alot better than Corrupter/roach/Hydra Hydras destroy Voidrays so cost effectively that it gets ugly. in the end he just waited to long and didn't put his economic advantage into a tactical advantage as Game 2 proved. I dont understand why people dont use mutas. Cheaper in gas, isnt countered by voidrays, isn't countered by stalkers directly and can hit colossus. Doesn't guardian shield substantially lower muta damage? I think there were too many stalkers there, mutas would melt pretty quickly, and with guardian shield their damage would be really low (though they damage multiple targets) I don't know how he could have stoped that death ball... //tx In my experience (lowly plat/gold leagues) Mutas absolutely demolish VR/Colo. Use Mutas + Pure speedlings with upgrades. I prefer going armor ups, since most units that hit air do several low damage hits. Of course it may not translate to Idra's pro level, but I think it is better than corruptors. Specially since it is easier to snipe any VR/Colo that walks too far from the stalkers. Except that the colossus would melt half of the lings before they could hit anything, and the Stalkers with VR would melt the Mutas before they could kill the colossus. //tx
This is so stupid. People like you are the reason the SC2 strat forums have gone to the dogs and progamers stopped posting there. By your logic marauder/hellion all in is uncounterable because hellions kill all the lings and marauders kill spines and roaches. muta IS a good answer to VR/collosus. Protoss antiair is bad in this game which is why banshees and mutas are so good against them. this is coming from 3.7k master Z not that it matters.. this is really basic game knowledge lol.
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On March 29 2011 10:59 ratMortar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 10:51 Mailing wrote:
What IdrA did in game 2 was all-in to a good protoss. If Cruncher held it off (or scouted it sooner) then idra was pretty damn screwed. How was that an all-in? IdrA was running off more bases than his opponent, was teching with roaches while the hydra drops were happening and if Cruncher had been able to fend off the drops properly he would have stopped and played standard. The definition of all-in would be that there is no next step; from where I was watching, IdrA was never in a situation like that.
Dimaga commented that he thinks it's all-innish(and Dimaga would be the expert on zerg all-ins) and I've heard a top zerg(can't remember who sorry) say that with that strategy he has to win there or that's it. So by definition it is an all-in in the same way a 6gate off 2 base is an all-in, if it fails you're going to lose.
Also just read the CrunCher post-game interview and lol. That guy seems kinda delusional, he's Silver 2.0
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Zerg needs an EMP type unit. Anyone agree? That would make the game more based around skill IMO. Toss has High Templars. Terran has Ghosts. Zerg has nothing  . Get rid of Neural and give us a spell that drains energy!
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On March 29 2011 15:06 Joementum wrote:Zerg needs an EMP type unit. Anyone agree? That would make the game more based around skill IMO. Toss has High Templars. Terran has Ghosts. Zerg has nothing . Get rid of Neural and give us a spell that drains energy!
Yea I never understood why 2/3 of the races have a pretty game changing ability while 1 does not.
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On March 29 2011 13:21 xaneda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 07:07 Tschis wrote:On March 29 2011 06:53 Jotoco wrote:On March 29 2011 05:59 Tschis wrote:On March 29 2011 05:41 pak150 wrote:On March 29 2011 05:08 Kralle333 wrote:On March 28 2011 23:12 freetgy wrote:On March 28 2011 22:09 DoubleReed wrote:
I mean in game 1 he made like 20 corruptors or something and STILL wasn't able to kill the void rays and colossus. The deathball just seemed unstoppable. I don't even think it was maxed.
20 Corrupters are not enough, Corrupters get countered by Voidrays so much since they do way more damage, what Idra should have done is to focus the colossus and remax with hydras. Mutalisk/Hydra most likely would have fared way alot better than Corrupter/roach/Hydra Hydras destroy Voidrays so cost effectively that it gets ugly. in the end he just waited to long and didn't put his economic advantage into a tactical advantage as Game 2 proved. I dont understand why people dont use mutas. Cheaper in gas, isnt countered by voidrays, isn't countered by stalkers directly and can hit colossus. Doesn't guardian shield substantially lower muta damage? I think there were too many stalkers there, mutas would melt pretty quickly, and with guardian shield their damage would be really low (though they damage multiple targets) I don't know how he could have stoped that death ball... //tx In my experience (lowly plat/gold leagues) Mutas absolutely demolish VR/Colo. Use Mutas + Pure speedlings with upgrades. I prefer going armor ups, since most units that hit air do several low damage hits. Of course it may not translate to Idra's pro level, but I think it is better than corruptors. Specially since it is easier to snipe any VR/Colo that walks too far from the stalkers. Except that the colossus would melt half of the lings before they could hit anything, and the Stalkers with VR would melt the Mutas before they could kill the colossus. //tx This is so stupid. People like you are the reason the SC2 strat forums have gone to the dogs and progamers stopped posting there. By your logic marauder/hellion all in is uncounterable because hellions kill all the lings and marauders kill spines and roaches. muta IS a good answer to VR/collosus. Protoss antiair is bad in this game which is why banshees and mutas are so good against them. this is coming from 3.7k master Z not that it matters.. this is really basic game knowledge lol.
Thanks, Xaneda.
I'm having very good success with this build. If opponent opts for mass Phoenix I transition to Hydras. If he goes MASS phoenix and some Colossus, I go Corruptors. If he completely transitions out of the Colo/VR and gives up Air control, I continue to mass Mutas. They are Surprisingly cost effective against stakers.
Only HT's completely counter then. But that's a whole different history.
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On March 29 2011 13:30 tangwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 10:59 ratMortar wrote:On March 29 2011 10:51 Mailing wrote:
What IdrA did in game 2 was all-in to a good protoss. If Cruncher held it off (or scouted it sooner) then idra was pretty damn screwed. How was that an all-in? IdrA was running off more bases than his opponent, was teching with roaches while the hydra drops were happening and if Cruncher had been able to fend off the drops properly he would have stopped and played standard. The definition of all-in would be that there is no next step; from where I was watching, IdrA was never in a situation like that. Dimaga commented that he thinks it's all-innish(and Dimaga would be the expert on zerg all-ins) and I've heard a top zerg(can't remember who sorry) say that with that strategy he has to win there or that's it. So by definition it is an all-in in the same way a 6gate off 2 base is an all-in, if it fails you're going to lose. Also just read the CrunCher post-game interview and lol. That guy seems kinda delusional, he's Silver 2.0
Yeah, but I'd need more than just "Dimaga said it was". IdrA was running off 4 base and teching (spire and unit upgrades). He had roaches, hydras, corrupters.
There are cases where what he did can be considered all-in, particularly when the zerg is behind, but when you're doubling your opponent's food count and have more bases, those drops could have failed miserably and IdrA could still have won Emphasis on could because Cruncher would have been stuck on 3 base and end up all-inning himself as he did in game 1.
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Not sure if it has been posted or not in the 300 pages prior but...
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v191/protrozz/anigifartosis-1.gif)
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Anyone watching Incontrol's stream today
Idra, regarding burrow
"Our special ability is
HIDING"
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Did he play against IdrA or was IdrA in skype with him or what? 
Edit: Oh ok, he is in skype or sth...
Edit2: IdrA is now playing against Axslav on Incontrols stream.
Edit3: and IdrA pulls the Cruncher on Axslav ^^ ": )"
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This just in: IdrA hates Xel'Naga.
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EPT
