EPTgod... now i have to shower... i feel like my protoss gets dirty..
The PiG Daily - Thinking critically about SC - Page 9
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Granas1988
14 Posts
god... now i have to shower... i feel like my protoss gets dirty.. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia999 Posts
On September 02 2016 21:35 Granas1988 wrote: Just won my first game with your last episode. Allthough I wonder if it does the same effect if you just delay his third instead of make him his second base on third AND delay third. Hit his third EXACTLY at 5:30. Loved it .) god... now i have to shower... i feel like my protoss gets dirty.. Haha that's awesome. Yeah in the VoD Dear actually blocks the 3rd base using the exact same method - so that works fine. Both methods are great  | ||
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DERASTAT
Germany99 Posts
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ernesto2000
2 Posts
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PiGStarcraft
Australia999 Posts
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PiGStarcraft
Australia999 Posts
Show Notes: + Show Spoiler + Snute’s Ravager-ling-bane ZvP and how to fight it! Games from Kespa Cup Qualifiers: https://www.twitch.tv/wardiii/v/89637308 10hr 8 minutes Economy: Guru’s full-swarm style: Same sort of economy management in that lower gas-count and way higher mineral mining for near unlimited zergling production Swaps out the hydras for the more accessible and more flexible ravagers Creep Creep makes such a big difference with this army that needs to close around the enemy to be effective. The more you control the map the more advantage you get by spreading your creep Engagements: Micro: 3 hotkeys All units separate Ways of engaging: WIth heavy ling you can get a full surround, force a donut and use bile on their army If low lings, send ravagers/banes in to force a FF wall and then break it. Why is it so good? Hyper-mobile Finds weaknesses even when it can’t win a front on fight Find sick surrounds very suddenly Punishing If they miss a FF or don’t split quickly banes can just blow up the whole core of their army suddenly Defensively very strong Super hard to push onto creep against this army when you can’t rely on forcefields being very effective Most importantly of all can solve the “problem” of cracking a midgame Protoss in multiple ways You can engage in multiple ways as said above You can benefit from covering the map in creep and playing it a little bit slower You can explode into counter-attacks and suddenly handicap the Protoss economy You can easily set up huge flanks and surrounds with this army How to fight this? https://www.twitch.tv/wardiii/v/89637308 10:14 - fast archons Archons and storm are the core answer to the ling-bane, being incredibly cost-efficient. Good spreads of army, or fantastic forcefields and storms if you’re staying somewhat clumped up You need to secure a 4th at a good time, I’d say by 9:30 in-game. Though every game the timings are a little different Stalkers might not be the worst unit since they don’t mind tanking some bane hits, but they’re so expensive you struggle to get enough archons or HT to balance it out. They also suck vs lings on their own Adepts still cost some gas, and usually rely on grouping up to be effective as even with attack speed they deal less damage than a zealot, usually relying on range and limited surface area to be effective - doesn’t work vs bile breaking FF and banes splashing clumped adepts Zealots are super cheap so allow the biggest number of those important archons/HT - but since they charge in and automatically clump up on the banelings, only a few mixed in your main army is useful. However if you can use the zealots where the zerg army ISN’T they can suddenly be a very effective mineral dump Warp prism chargelot harass is highly effective to buy time and find efficient trades for those chargelots You can also drop more cannons to fortify your bases with excess minerals [8:55:28 AM] PtitDrogo: One thing you need to mention [8:55:37 AM] PtitDrogo: If z grades banes for probes and canons [8:55:46 AM] PtitDrogo: You actually still keep the same gas income [8:55:52 AM] PtitDrogo: Just less minerals [8:56:01 AM] PtitDrogo: Which rly doesnt matter too much [8:56:17 AM] PtitDrogo: Mass archons and A move on 36 probes ftw | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia999 Posts
On September 11 2016 21:28 DERASTAT wrote: Hey Pig wonna make a daily about the ssl final, its the first korean top level ZvZ series, and it seems like canceling speed and dont build a baneling nest and go for a gasless like wall is they go-to-build. And it looked way more stable than the 3 hatch lingbane into low eco low upgrade style, for a roach loving player I actually haven't caught up on watching that yet since it was on late at night whilst I was in Mexico and I flew to a LAN this past weekend also. Watching the VoDs this week, will see what stuff there is to talk about, that certainly sounds very interesting. We've rarely seen ZvZ in Korea for a long time now | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia999 Posts
Show Notes + Show Spoiler + Pylon placement PvP and PvT Pylons in fast-warp-in range. At least one per nexus, preferably more. Triangle around each mineral line Covers it from all the regular harass Pylon placement vs liberators PvT Potential 2nd pylon to block reapers PvP If you open adepts - your 3rd pylon often goes at the front of the natural Building placement Downside of having it all clumped up behind your mineral line vs liberators/drops out of reach PvZ TRIANGLE Not as important in PvZ because it’s rare a roach or hydra will get in your main base. Most important is the front wall Just 1 pylon covering the main mineral line from ling drop Regular Wall-offs Protecting your pylons Every wall is different Pylons at 3rd bases Robos have to rally out - so preferably have them outside your walloff if you build lots of immortals Protoss Protoss is a race of getting away with very few fighting units early and relying on the pylon overcharge as the anchor of all your early defence EVERY pylon has a purpose Triangle of pylons around your main mineral line for full overcharge coverage Wall-offs vs zerg - not vs Terran (superior ranged army) Have to memorise how your natural works on new maps. Otherwise you can end up with some pretty crappy walls! At least one pylon at each nexus that is in fast-warp-in range PvT - Thanks Drogo! If you open mothership core you won’t have many units early on so you need to put your first pylon blocking the reaper entry point. If it’s a wide cliff you can wall off with gateways (zest on dusk, prion and orbital - always with his first or 2nd pylon). Pylon at 3rd nexus immediately - mothership core floats over ready to defend, then once warpgate is finished we bring it back to main and nonstop warpins at the 3rd. Extra pylon in the main around this time for full coverage. Careful placement of pylons to deny liberators Line it up directly with the patch next to the gap to cover the mineral line from the exposed liberator edge. Important on dusk towers cos so little space behind mineral lines Watch out for high-ground liberator spots - you’ll need your mothership there to spot those areas PvP Downside of walloff? Try to have FULL coverage vs adepts Try to cover it so they can’t just dart in, snipe probes and walk away unscathed. Try to make sure they’ll have to take as much damage as possible If you open adepts - your 3rd pylon often goes at the front of the natural Otherwise their stalkers can deny your natural for a long time - even though it’s a small commitment and they might just be expoing themselves. PvZ Pylons to block ling drops Double pylon with gap for 2 adepts next to nexus Walling natural is always very different on every map these days Proxies! Off the regular scouting path Away the META checking areas | ||
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Granas1988
14 Posts
I want to discuss about something with you that is outside of the last VoD but a part of PvZ. Has was playing a in my opinion real intersting style. (Mass Oracle into carrier). It actually beats mass hydra. Is "OKAY" vs mass queens if done correctly and only has probs vs Infestor which you should be able to scout. So here is my Idea. Oracles actually have a lot of similairy to Mutalisk. What if Protoss would play this style very similar to Zergs Muta-Ling Style (Mostly for harassment. Stop at a specific number and have a transition to Chargezealots. (and HT because of Infestor/Alternative Collosi?)) I just want to start some discussion with some brainstorming. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia999 Posts
On September 21 2016 17:14 Granas1988 wrote: Hey @PiGStarcraft, I want to discuss about something with you that is outside of the last VoD but a part of PvZ. Has was playing a in my opinion real intersting style. (Mass Oracle into carrier). It actually beats mass hydra. Is "OKAY" vs mass queens if done correctly and only has probs vs Infestor which you should be able to scout. So here is my Idea. Oracles actually have a lot of similairy to Mutalisk. What if Protoss would play this style very similar to Zergs Muta-Ling Style (Mostly for harassment. Stop at a specific number and have a transition to Chargezealots. (and HT because of Infestor/Alternative Collosi?)) I just want to start some discussion with some brainstorming. Yeah it's possible. The correct response from zerg is ALWAYS infestors though so HT and chargelots actually aren't very good against it because fungal destroys chargelots and can lock down HT before they get in range to feedback. Definitely blink-disruptor, immortal-archon, or something else might work out ok though. I do love the carrier transition Has was doing, was pretty sick, but transitioning into a ground army is definitely also possible. Some games Has would go storm then tempests as his transition, that was pretty sick too | ||
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Granas1988
14 Posts
So how many Stargates would you suggest? 2 like KnowMe? or 1 or 3? also what do you think is the number to stop oracles? | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia999 Posts
On September 22 2016 14:36 Granas1988 wrote: Okay. I think Blink-Disruptor "sounds" to me like it makes more sense. Because Archon-Immortal and Carrier can killed by Ling Infestor to easy afaik. So how many Stargates would you suggest? 2 like KnowMe? or 1 or 3? also what do you think is the number to stop oracles? I'd just do it exactly like Has does except instead of fleet beacon begin your ground transition. Carrier's are pretty epic vs infestors if you spread them out before you engage though, Has should have won the game on Frost vs Snute if he just spread those carriers out before engaging! The DPS is INSANE if the interceptors aren't all clumped and fungalled on one spot | ||
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Granas1988
14 Posts
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
On September 22 2016 17:28 Granas1988 wrote: My biggest Problem with Carrier is the building Time. The time 3-4 Carrier need to build is just too insane (even with chrono) which lead you to open for attacks because a lot of supply is misisng You can try to build carriers if your opponent is preparing for a more an anti-ground force pushing you. | ||
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Granas1988
14 Posts
I tryed the Oracle into Stalker + Disruptor Tech. Here my first feedback: Disruptor as AoE Tech take too long. I defended with mostly blink stalker. But need more testing. Have the feeling I need some tech between Oracle + Blink Stalker to defend | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia999 Posts
Show Notes: + Show Spoiler + Apotheosis Uthermal vs neeb IEM Shanghai Finals Example of cloakshee vs expand into robo Scv immediately leaves base 16 rax 16 gas 17 2nd gas 20 2nd depot 1:50 factory(basically as soon as have money) Straight into tech lab Immediate proxied starport (other location) 25 depot 30/3:10 CC at natural Wait for cloak to hit with banshees 4:00-4:30 rax gets home and hops on tech lab 2xrax and then another 2xrax when you can afford them 3tech labs 2 reactors Hit 2-base bio-mine-lib timing Barracks 2 reapers then fly home Factory Tech lab 1-2 Cyclones (optional mag field accelerator) Swaps off tech lab and builds 1-2 addons for rax before building its own reactor Starport vs stargate Tech lab 2 banshees + cloak Fly home Land in new corner of the map and build reactor if you have to - desperately need medivacs 4xmedivacs then libs Starport vs Robo liberators Fly home Land in new corner of the map and build reactor if you have to - desperately need medivacs 4xmedivacs then libs Kelazhur vs cyan Galactic Game 1 Example of mag field and liberator vs 1-base into robo. 3-base transition Also shows defending pylon rush counterattack Mag field Libs 3rd CC transition Triple tankivac to follow up (good on galactics chokes/ledges) Starport comes all the way home Kelazhur vs Cyan game 4 Apotheosis Vs proxy SG Has to go engi bay to respond Starport then mag field again Starport at home though Still cloakshees 5 cyclones! | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia999 Posts
On September 23 2016 06:57 Granas1988 wrote: Hey PiG: I tryed the Oracle into Stalker + Disruptor Tech. Here my first feedback: Disruptor as AoE Tech take too long. I defended with mostly blink stalker. But need more testing. Have the feeling I need some tech between Oracle + Blink Stalker to defend I don't really know the details of that style too much, but generally it's super hard for them to actually push you with enough anti-air in time because your oracle count is so insane. Probably pretty map dependant on which maps queens can get across and denying creep might help a lot to delay. Masses of cannons and overcharge can defend a lot of armies too. If you watch the way Has does it he gets 4-bases and heappss of cannons so it's very hard for zerg to push into him. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia999 Posts
Show Notes + Show Spoiler + Conceptual episode Explaining some stuff for beginners Also some much more advanced stuff Points Galactic Process vs Irushpeople 11:23 Start at 9:30 Have a plan before you go in Hit main with drop, banshee into 3rd and just hold position both of them and FULL focus on frontal micro Strong use of queing up Also can que to drop Can que hold position Meanwhile opponent has no time to mentally prepare himself. He has only a few seconds to correctly assess the situation and figure out where to prioritise Often they will realise too late and make several blunders - even at high levels. Sending in the less important prongs first Distracts Pulls attention away Allows your most powerful prong to have the most value Not actually actively controlling all 3 Timing things out to hit at the same time Hold position micro A-move and forget about them Focusing on the most important part Choose to focus on your main army over microing a drop 10:20 - Once main army is mostly dead I have nothing left to micro - I check my drop and banshee are doing their job. With say a roach-hydra army there really isn’t much to micro so I would look away from this army as soon as my concave is set up When to just forget about units When they are below the line where it’s worth your APM There’s no exact measure. If your opponent isn’t responding then focus-firing even just 2 marines on workers can kill a whole mineral line But 90% of the time it’s not worth microing those 2 marines and best just to a-move them Last thing - unit tester show them you can que up individual unit drops in different locations. Rare but something I occasionally do with widow mine drops and look back to burrow them all at once later | ||
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corydoras
161 Posts
Great episode! | ||
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Granas1988
14 Posts
For new daily: I asked a question in twitter you can also ask for aggression what do you suggest for the other races to split and how many units to split. | ||
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