EPTThe PiG Daily - Thinking critically about SC - Page 3
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ejozl
Denmark2932 Posts
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FoxDog
170 Posts
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MperorM1
90 Posts
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Pillowpants117
33 Posts
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PiGStarcraft
Australia945 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Me vs Iaguz Core ideas: Putting on pressure to force mistakes Give ourselves room for error - Force reactions whilst already teching in something to take advantage of that reaction G1 - Trying to play straight up and being outskilled Poor execution Just lots of little things At this level its slight supply blocks Larva unspent Super late bane nest - biggest problem. Realisation that we’re far out-matched and not going to be able to win straight-up games G2 - Finding a way under their skin The more unique and strange the type of aggression the harder it is for them to read and the more likely their response will be very straightforward Doesn’t expect the roach swap whereas if we go 2-base muta and hit later, the chance we throw him off balance and force those mistakes is limited. Questions - @x5_PiG G3 - Looking for a different way underneath our opponents skin Continue to keep them off balance - however in this case their’s decent unit production and the roaches don’t get all that much done. Nonetheless this has occupied and delayed Iaguz. Letting the drops in to scout + do damage twice is where we lose the game The surprise mutas aren’t a surprise anymore We could have followed up with yet another roach attack but decide to try and play defensively since we took so much damage - there’s a good amount of flexibility in the styles because each wave is not all-in. Our opponents know this and so are constantly worried of us teching/macroing out of control also. Answer questions On May 31 2016 14:06 Pillowpants117 wrote: I love that you defend the power of aggression. As a diamond terran it's really important not to let people talk me out of attacking constantly whenever there's opportunity to. It's important to think about all aspects of the game! This latest episode is in the same vein, but tomorrow we'll be talking about defending cheese and hopefully mixing in some more episodes on strong macro play soon | ||
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
It is very informative, entertaining and interesting. Also, I love the idea of making a regular daily event from it. People love this kind of series. I hope, when the responsible people see these videos, they will start to invite him again into various tournaments as the "expert", because I always loved his expertise, which he brought into casting. Also I am sure, people will be much more interested in his coaching, when they see, how excellent he is. And the number of people watching it live and in VODs can also bring some cash :-) Well done!!! | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia945 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Viewer-submitted replays Variety of skill levels - gold through to GM Defending cheese Also look at defending all sorts of big aggressive attacks We’re going to go through replay by replay and talk about what we can do differently, and the reasoning of how we got to that point Learning from the games You can’t always understand how to deal with something the first time - but you take a shot at it, and then afterwards watch the replay to understand what small changes you could make to hold it. What can I change? Here’s a list we can always follow: Learn to recognise it Telltale signs drone/probe disappearing whilst scouting - check for cannons/proxy hatches Worker entering your base from a weird angle, or at an odd timing Build units earlier Often we panic/are distracted and don’t start units as soon as we can Sounds obvious but is often forgotten. Even 3-4s faster basic fightersmakes a big difference Cut workers earlier Ensure we’re cutting workers the INSTANT we have the scouting tell Often we’re just not paying attention and don’t notice the units coming across the minimap until 10-15s late Adjust your gas/mineral ratio to the situation Micro/position differently Place defensive structures/walloffs differently Different ways of utilising your units! The most ignored part of defending cheese Difficult - but SO so so rewarding Literally the best feeling in the world when you do some sick micro Practice vs a friend or practice partner is the fastest way to learn, but even just remembering what to do and trying to apply it next time can pay dividends. If all of the above fails - then we look at adjusting our build to be safer 1 - ZvT frozen temple Just not having any units No units out at 8:00? Just not a good build Important to distinguish you playing worse than normal/executing poorly with any actual need to change up or be afraid of something Grab a few benchmarks! 6:30 - where even off a macro build decent sized attacks and pressures can start to happen ^Therefore the same timing you should be pumping out units pretty consistently Only a 2-base build, so even though this rep is gold - quite far from pro, we still should have a decent army and a wall by 8:00 Of course everything varies at different skill levels but nonetheless we simply don’t have many units out We just lacked any goals with this build 2 - Classic Early pool Spot drone but don’t react this time Can easily pull 4 drones to kill a spine if you pull them nice and early If it somehow gets up without us spotting it build those spines of ours further back so we can defend them from lings Goes against basic idea of having them close enough to defend the hatch - but we can learn from this game and change it for next time now we recognise the secondary threat of the lings 3 - Make it a 1 base terran - failure of T to respond properly and stabilise Forgot to respect the broodlings! Lead to massive chaos in the follow-up Even a second hatchery on the natural Even little things like realising he had to put the units in the bunker would have changed the entire game If we want to play safer vs this type of build often you just focus on getting lots more basic units In this case that would be building marines consistently out of both those early barracks to be safe We should always seek to scout amidst the chaos also This game we fail to do that and so have no idea what the follow-up is Just needed to calmly pull scvs to repair multiple times and keep the wall up This replay is a great example of going back to the first mistake we make - and prioritising changing that. Sure we could have re-walled better, done this and that better. But if didn’t lose the first 2 marines + reaper to the broodloings we never would have had our wall go down and ended up in such a chaotic situation. 4 - Proxy hatch vs toss Don’t pay attention to that drone positioning Disbelief that someone would dare do this rather than calmly responding to it Got stuck on focusing on it… the threat whilst large isn’t game-ending Remember these sorts of attacks cost a lot! Zerg is only on 24 drones If we can just secure the natural and maybe re-expand to the 3rd we can do ok We should be building stalkers after the first few adepts - adepts don’t damage spines. Hold position micro to hold it back Rebuilding production at the natural Slow reaction - slow mothership core Forge/more gateways could go down Probes could be pulled to shut it down before it gets out of control Why does the natural have no wall AND the rocks aren’t down? 0 units… no prep at 3:00? A reaction to seeing no gas - but if you want to cut corners and play with sharp reactions like that you damned well better pay attention to a drone going missing in your base! | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On May 31 2016 21:21 PiGStarcraft wrote: PiG Daily #12 - How to beat a Stronger player - dictating the pace of the game - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sJnjG1mdJg + Show Spoiler + Me vs Iaguz Core ideas: Putting on pressure to force mistakes Give ourselves room for error - Force reactions whilst already teching in something to take advantage of that reaction G1 - Trying to play straight up and being outskilled Poor execution Just lots of little things At this level its slight supply blocks Larva unspent Super late bane nest - biggest problem. Realisation that we’re far out-matched and not going to be able to win straight-up games G2 - Finding a way under their skin The more unique and strange the type of aggression the harder it is for them to read and the more likely their response will be very straightforward Doesn’t expect the roach swap whereas if we go 2-base muta and hit later, the chance we throw him off balance and force those mistakes is limited. Questions - @x5_PiG G3 - Looking for a different way underneath our opponents skin Continue to keep them off balance - however in this case their’s decent unit production and the roaches don’t get all that much done. Nonetheless this has occupied and delayed Iaguz. Letting the drops in to scout + do damage twice is where we lose the game The surprise mutas aren’t a surprise anymore We could have followed up with yet another roach attack but decide to try and play defensively since we took so much damage - there’s a good amount of flexibility in the styles because each wave is not all-in. Our opponents know this and so are constantly worried of us teching/macroing out of control also. Answer questions It's important to think about all aspects of the game! This latest episode is in the same vein, but tomorrow we'll be talking about defending cheese and hopefully mixing in some more episodes on strong macro play soon Pig for overwatch bonjwa, playing the toss of OW! :D | ||
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Liox
Germany47 Posts
first of all, thank you very much for the effort and making all these dailies. I hope you have a lot of fun making them (seems that way). I just watched "PiG Daily #7 - How to make your own build and learn the game naturally", really inspiring, great stuff and definitely the way I like playing the game. However, I felt a lot more frustrated these days and the reason is that I kind of know my build and I am the type of player which really tries to get stuff on point. So, for a long time, I tried to say "Ok, don't focus too much on the build, focus on mechanics (Multitasking, Macro, (Scouting))" but it did not work out the way I wanted. The reason I found is that my mechanics get much worse when I actually want to do something. I figured that I was failing because I had to think about every move I make with my units which took so much of my brain capacity that I couldn't do anything else. For instance, I am a fan of the Day[9]-MCL (Mental Checklist) and I can do it quite okay if I have set moves I can do (like moving marines on the map while doing macro). I totally loose this ability when I am actually playing and have to think about e.g. "Do I send a drop now? For what purpose?" (//terranproblems ^^) Now, how do you approach these movement goals? Do you just say "Ok, in the next 10 games, with my first unit x I want to do y" and see how it works? What do you do if you can't figure out what to do? (e.g. TvP on Dusk Towers, I have no clue how I can do anything to the protoss before he goes for his 4th base) This all goes down to having a solid gameplan I think. My goal is to be able to react to my opponent with prepared reactions which I'll figure out when needed but I don't want to think about every move every game. Greetings Liox | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia945 Posts
On June 01 2016 21:45 Liox wrote: Hello Jared/x5_PiG, first of all, thank you very much for the effort and making all these dailies. I hope you have a lot of fun making them (seems that way). I just watched "PiG Daily #7 - How to make your own build and learn the game naturally", really inspiring, great stuff and definitely the way I like playing the game. However, I felt a lot more frustrated these days and the reason is that I kind of know my build and I am the type of player which really tries to get stuff on point. So, for a long time, I tried to say "Ok, don't focus too much on the build, focus on mechanics (Multitasking, Macro, (Scouting))" but it did not work out the way I wanted. The reason I found is that my mechanics get much worse when I actually want to do something. I figured that I was failing because I had to think about every move I make with my units which took so much of my brain capacity that I couldn't do anything else. For instance, I am a fan of the Day[9]-MCL (Mental Checklist) and I can do it quite okay if I have set moves I can do (like moving marines on the map while doing macro). I totally loose this ability when I am actually playing and have to think about e.g. "Do I send a drop now? For what purpose?" (//terranproblems ^^) Now, how do you approach these movement goals? Do you just say "Ok, in the next 10 games, with my first unit x I want to do y" and see how it works? What do you do if you can't figure out what to do? (e.g. TvP on Dusk Towers, I have no clue how I can do anything to the protoss before he goes for his 4th base) This all goes down to having a solid gameplan I think. My goal is to be able to react to my opponent with prepared reactions which I'll figure out when needed but I don't want to think about every move every game. Greetings Liox Hey Liox thnx for posting the question here. I think you begin to answer your own question towards the end when you say it's all about having a solid gameplan. You just need to have a rough gameplan and then do things that make sense based off your own understanding and intuition. Just focusing on multi-tasking, macro and scouting doesn't make sense if you don't know why or when to do things. You would have no idea what to do except just mindlessly clicking on things and building things at random. You should watch pro games and watch what they do with their units. If you struggle in tvp on dusk - watch what someone good does, think about what you're capable of - and make a list of what timings you want to be hitting, where you want to be pressuring etc. Then go put it into action. When things don't work out - analyse why, what you can do better to make it work, or if your plan needs changing. Unit movement can always follow a pattern with a certain build in a certain matchup. The first time you encounter a situation you might be slow to react cos overthinking it, or you don't react at all because you're not thinking and just doing what you always do. After these games you say "ok next time I'll react faster, or next time when I see X I will change my unit movement". I think the best thing you could do is post a replay in the strategy forum with a bit of self analysis and get some free coaching. Players will no doubt give you some great insight and direction on where you can focus to improve. Learning on your own is great, but it doesn't have to be in a vacuum. Debate and discuss with others, but always use your own judgement at the end of the day. Edit: Whilst focusing on mechanics is great you still should have certain goals in mind like when I was learning Terran my first few sessions were just honing in on these points:
That way I work on a few areas of my core mechanical gameplay by simplifying the game. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia945 Posts
@Granas1988: Hello Pig: I have a Question about defending Aggression (&Cheese) as Protoss, especally against Zerg. You said: after defending aggression you should wait to let your advantage kick in, and then attack him. How do I know I've enough without missing my timing? Sometimes I attack to late, sometimes to early. Wouldn't it be better to harass Zerg earlier so he has to build more Units instead of Worker? How much Tech is okay since if I'm building units I get less tech out, which I feel like, is critical for Toss. PS: Thx for your daily. In general yes a very good way to deal with the follow-up, especially if we can't get full scouting is to counter-attack. Every situation has its own intricacies, however against zerg due to their production being used for both units and economy, even fake pushes can achieve a nice goal. So often the moment you feel safe to push across you try to move out and pressure zerg, sometimes just moving to near their side of the map, then pulling home - forcing them to build units rather than drones. To answer the question directly though, how do you know when to attack? Scouting: Scout how much they are committing to economy or army behind their aggression. The only reason not to move out straight away is if they're preparing for another all-in and you're afraid of being swarmed when you move out. Luckily Recall helps mitigate this risk - and scouting through hallucination, phenix, oracle, prism or observer will let you know for sure. Scouting drones being built = you should push soon. Scouting army being built = you should just defend and look to expand/tech up when its safe, because your economy is stronger. Game-sense: Scenario 1: A zerg throws 80 lings at your wall between 3:30-5:00. You hold, only losing a few gates and pylons in the wall and 2 adepts. You've calmly built extra gates in the back of your base to replace them. You know you've taken very little damage for a HUGE investment into his attack. So you make 1-2 rounds of units and counter-push immediately. Knowing even if he's going for only units he can't keep up with your 2-base production. Scenario 2: A terran pushes you with 6 marines when you're not looking. He kills your mothership-core and 6 probes. You took pretty big damage for a small investment. You know you're behind. Counter-pushing isn't really something you're focused on doing unless you want to go fully all-in trying to catch him off guard. The reason is you're behind, you don't have any advantage to leverage. In the previous scenario you had an advantage to leverage. | ||
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Granas1
15 Posts
 PS: against zerg 3 minute aggression or cheese. Do you suggest to go more for SG, Robo or GW Scout? Because I'm afraif of beeing to late to scout to his greed. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia945 Posts
No notes for this one, but a big shoutout to Cascade for floating the What-if-Wednesdays idea in this thread! Great stuff mate, I look forward to presenting it better next week now I've got a feel for it | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia945 Posts
On June 02 2016 17:06 Granas1 wrote: Thank you! PS: against zerg 3 minute aggression or cheese. Do you suggest to go more for SG, Robo or GW Scout? Because I'm afraif of beeing to late to scout to his greed. I'm planning a series of episodes "how to scout Zerg" and same for P and Terran where we look at understanding those races. Normally you just check to make sure they did normal hatch gas pool (scout with probe after gate, or after pylon on 4-player map) and then check if 3rd base is there with adept. If no 3rd base you play safer: instant moco, faster gates + more unit production etc. | ||
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Granas1
15 Posts
#AliveGame! #Passion!!! | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
Great to see pros analyse their own games in depth like this. Impressive how good handle all three had on what was going wrong.Maybe it is possible to isolate that single point even more, as they seem to know exactly what went wrong? In this game, it was the drop defense between 3.40 (or whatever it was) up to maybe 6-7 min where the first push came in. I took down supply at 6.30 in the three games and got: original game: Z: 97 P: 106, toss push halfway across. first re-game: Z: 102 P: 99, toss push halfway across. second re-game: Z: 110 P: 100, toss army still at home. Maybe you don't even need to play out the rest of the game after that? It is pretty clear that Elazar handled it better. So when analysing where the problem was ans how to fix it, maybe also think about at what point the fix should have kicked in, and play only up to that point. If you set up clear objectives: "I want to be in that position at that time", you can quicker assess how the different methods compare. I think that could be good training, but maybe doesn't make a spectator friendly stream? If you want to see what happens afterwards you can always resume from one of the new replays just before you stop and play from there...  Well, I don't know, does this make sense? | ||
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Zulu23
Germany132 Posts
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RossV
United Kingdom5 Posts
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bpgbcg
United States74 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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