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Why do I watch trashy shows when I know they're shit?
Because it's good entertainment.
I don't think anyone is going to make an argument that pop music is good 'in the classical sense of what is quality music' whatever that is. But I think if you like something, you must find some good qualities about it that appeal to you.
Things like this
if you can't admit that it's a bad song, you're biased.
don't make any kind of sense whatsoever. That literally says, "if I don't like it, you must be biased." I guess that's my entire point about 'bias vs quality'. Who is anyone to say what someone likes?
rofl cool strawman arguments. not really good at this are you
you can't use a song that was largely panned by the general community, previously establish yourself as a stan of said group, and expect people to not call you out on/not believe the example you offered. true objective fans are hard to find and you are definitely not one. Not to pick on you but that was seriously a bad example; lovey-dovey as a bad song works much better.
anyhow I don't understand how there can't be objectively good music. there's a reason why music theory exists.
As a music major having taken 6 semester of music theory plus AP music theory, I consider SNSD my favorite music group
On February 21 2012 10:31 chocopan wrote: Can I just say I love this thread? I have always loved this thread. I will always love this thread.
Sorry I don't have more to contribute but consider this my profoundiest thankings!
It's stuff like the above that makes me love this thread. I love the cycle of this thread, no lie.
On February 21 2012 05:28 Lokk wrote: Hmmmmmmmm February 22nd is tomorrow....... OH SNAP WOORIES BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone Get Ready To Say Happy Birthday Tomorrow ^_^. Going to be awesome birthday with the Visual glow present and donations!!! Tomorrow will be Woories x100, but for now 1 epic picture: + Show Spoiler +
On February 21 2012 10:56 andyrau wrote: I don't understand how there can't be objectively good music. there's a reason why music theory exists.
Music theory can't explain why something is good. It can explain that the human brain responds positively to general patterns like certain harmonies, or the fact that we like to hear a rhythm instead of tones thrown together without any ordering whatsoever. (It gets harder when trying to explain flamenco which follows the weirdest beat ever. And then there's the twelve-tone technique which gives some music theoreticians the biggest boner while it disgusts the general public.)
Music theory then seeks to reproduce the patterns that it found appealing and experiments with them by reproducing and rearranging them.That's what it does. It can't say if things are good or bad. Complexity doesn't mean quality, neither does creativity or ingenuity. People might interpret it that way, but it's in no way founded on the science that is music theory.
I'll admit it's a pseudo-science at best, but you basically contradict yourself. Certain harmonies sound more pleasing to our ears because they are technically better, hence they are "good" from an objective perspective. There's a reason why simple melodies like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star are appreciated, and why more complex expressions such as the caprices from Paganini are also celebrated.
It's the same way with literature and other arts. I don't find a Tale of Two Cities appealing in the slightest, but I cannot deny it's a classic and a an excellent example of historical fiction providing social critique.
There is a difference between good/bad music and good music you dislike/bad music you enjoy. Assuming the two are equivocal is silly.
Music theory isn't what you guys think it is. Music theory is DESCRIPTIVE not NORMATIVE. There is no such thing as objectively good music, because there is no such thing as objective value. Value is subjective, and this has been accepted by the vast majority of Economists and Philosophers for over 90 years now. Accept it. The scales and harmonies popularized in western music are not universal. This is because they are not objectively better than other scales and harmonies, they are cultural norms and that isn't a bad thing. Sure, it makes being a music snob harder because you can't establish your valuations as fact, but if you love music you shouldn't need to.
By the way, I listen to some of the most complex forms of music ever created. Music that utilizes all the techniques that a musician has at his disposal. Polyrhythms, tempo shifts, changing time signatures. It combines technical mastery with the harmonic boundary-pushing of hard bop jazz and the melodic complexity of twelve tone serial music. It is some of the most complex music that exists today. Do you know what it sounds like?
When discussing music, the terms 'good' and 'bad' can mean anything from 'enjoyable to me', 'calming', 'energizing', 'complex'. Disagreements occur when people use the same word to mean different things.
For example, I say that technical death metal is better than dub step. What I happen to mean is that technical death metal is more complex than dubstep. Someone else might exlaim "I DISAGREE! Dubstep is better than technical death metal!", whereas they might mean that dubstep is more enjoyable to me than technical death metal.
Why not avoid the confusion? Get rid of the value-laden terminology altogether and say what you really mean - that a song is more enjoyable, more complex, easier to listen to, more demanding to the listener, good background music, good for sex etc. Anything but good/bad. When you talk about music in that way, you are not actually describing the music, you are merely describing your preferences.
I am beginning to think I am seeing things. I recently met this group of 4 people at a bar that are in a political party. Ended up talking to them after "love-shotting" with one of the women. Turns out though she can't really speak English so I ended up speaking with one of the guys in the group.
So he took a photo and uploaded it to facebook yesterday. And one of his friends commented. The thing is that she looks like Hyomin/Soyeon... Or my eyes decieve me.
And does anyone know if Tablo has any plans to release another album this year? Recently got my hands on his album since I downright love his songs.
Well she can't look like both Soyeon and Hyomin, they look pretty different. Also the pronoun use confuses me. Who looks like them? The woman at the bar or the dude's friend?
On February 21 2012 16:48 DystopiaX wrote: Well she can't look like both Soyeon and Hyomin, they look pretty different. Also the pronoun use confuses me. Who looks like them? The woman at the bar or the dude's friend?
True that. On some pictures, she looks more like Hyomin and on other's like Soyeon.
Ah, sorry. His friend (not from the bar). Our room's just got disinfected and I've been light-headed since. ._. Made a ton of mistakes...
As is the case with the other guy, the only course of action is to befriend your friend's friend and marry her...for all of us! Also if you're feeling the effects of cleaning chemicals you probably shouldn't hang out in that room...
I was genuinely thinking of doing that... I'll have to ask my buddy to introduce me to her (here's to hoping she has no boyfriend). And that might be a good idea...
Aaaand now comes a fairly big question: Which albums by the following bands are worth getting
CNBlue Supreme Team After School 10cm MBLAQ Beast F.T Island Davichi U-Kiss Teen Top Infinite JYJ
If albums are obsolete, can you state some songs instead?
I am asking this since I am in the middle of studying for my finals of this term. So I barely have time to listen to new songs. T_T
On February 21 2012 17:00 Galtakar wrote: I was genuinely thinking of doing that... I'll have to ask my buddy to introduce me to her (here's to hoping she has no boyfriend). And that might be a good idea...
Aaaand now comes a fairly big question: Which albums by the following bands are worth getting
CNBlue Supreme Team After School 10cm MBLAQ Beast F.T Island Davichi U-Kiss Teen Top Infinite JYJ
If albums are obsolete, can you state some songs instead?
I am asking this since I am in the middle of studying for my finals of this term. So I barely have time to listen to new songs. T_T
CNBlue - First Step (album), Blue Love (min-album), I'm a Loner (song)
CNBlue is one of my favorite kpop groups and my favorite male kpop group. It's probably due to the fact that they don't dance but rather actually play a instrument (even if its unplugged due to music show requirements) and never lip sync. Also Jung YongHwa is really talented as he composes/writes a lot of the CNblue songs. The whole group is made of talent and unique in the kpop scene.
The others listed I don't really know too much about and haven't heard anything past their singles and promoted stuff
On February 21 2012 17:00 Galtakar wrote: I was genuinely thinking of doing that... I'll have to ask my buddy to introduce me to her (here's to hoping she has no boyfriend). And that might be a good idea...
Aaaand now comes a fairly big question: Which albums by the following bands are worth getting + Show Spoiler +
CNBlue Supreme Team After School 10cm MBLAQ Beast F.T Island Davichi U-Kiss Teen Top Infinite JYJ
If albums are obsolete, can you state some songs instead?
I am asking this since I am in the middle of studying for my finals of this term. So I barely have time to listen to new songs. T_T
Beast and Infinite are probably my two favorite guy groups. Beast - Fiction is one of my favorite songs. I'm not a huge fan of CNBlue or FT Island but that's just because I don't like their whole guitar deal. If you're into that kind of thing then you should check them out. Afterschool has some decent songs, I'm mostly just a fan of Kahi though. "Because of You" is a good song. MBLAQ I follow purely because I love Rain and it's his group. Their recent song (this is war) is good, I mostly like the choreography. Davichi has some good songs, I still prefer IU because IU>KMK in cuteness and I'm not a huge fan of their voices. It's a personal preference, they do have good vocal ability though. Their songs remind me of IU but less cute. U-Kiss pales in comparison to other guy groups imo. In all aspects.
On February 21 2012 17:00 Galtakar wrote: I was genuinely thinking of doing that... I'll have to ask my buddy to introduce me to her (here's to hoping she has no boyfriend). And that might be a good idea...
Aaaand now comes a fairly big question: Which albums by the following bands are worth getting
10cms full album is good, infinite-paradise is a favorite of mine, get all the davichi. Pretty sure that's the third time that teaser has been posted kaiwa Oh, and fiction and fact is worth getting too. One of the best boy group albums out there
On February 21 2012 10:56 andyrau wrote: I don't understand how there can't be objectively good music. there's a reason why music theory exists.
Music theory can't explain why something is good. It can explain that the human brain responds positively to general patterns like certain harmonies, or the fact that we like to hear a rhythm instead of tones thrown together without any ordering whatsoever. (It gets harder when trying to explain flamenco which follows the weirdest beat ever. And then there's the twelve-tone technique which gives some music theoreticians the biggest boner while it disgusts the general public.)
Music theory then seeks to reproduce the patterns that it found appealing and experiments with them by reproducing and rearranging them.That's what it does. It can't say if things are good or bad. Complexity doesn't mean quality, neither does creativity or ingenuity. People might interpret it that way, but it's in no way founded on the science that is music theory.
I'll admit it's a pseudo-science at best, but you basically contradict yourself. Certain harmonies sound more pleasing to our ears because they are technically better, hence they are "good" from an objective perspective. There's a reason why simple melodies like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star are appreciated, and why more complex expressions such as the caprices from Paganini are also celebrated.
It's the same way with literature and other arts. I don't find a Tale of Two Cities appealing in the slightest, but I cannot deny it's a classic and a an excellent example of historical fiction providing social critique.
There is a difference between good/bad music and good music you dislike/bad music you enjoy. Assuming the two are equivocal is silly.
Yo. You listen to that!!? Had to wash out my ears with some Handel after that and I'm not even into classical music. Good grief... Have you killed anyone lately?? Yup and I'd call you ze freak too... xD... Also just gotta say that Rainbow certainly pushes the boundaries for Kpop much more than Miss A! Exhibit A:
It's not all I listen to obviously, I am in a kpop discussion thread
It's an acquired taste, but I used it as an example of why people should be wary to conflate technicality and complexity with 'good'. (unless you like that kind of music, like me)
On February 21 2012 16:20 zefreak wrote: Music theory isn't what you guys think it is. Music theory is DESCRIPTIVE not NORMATIVE. There is no such thing as objectively good music, because there is no such thing as objective value. Value is subjective, and this has been accepted by the vast majority of Economists and Philosophers for over 90 years now. Accept it. The scales and harmonies popularized in western music are not universal. This is because they are not objectively better than other scales and harmonies, they are cultural norms and that isn't a bad thing. Sure, it makes being a music snob harder because you can't establish your valuations as fact, but if you love music you shouldn't need to.
By the way, I listen to some of the most complex forms of music ever created. Music that utilizes all the techniques that a musician has at his disposal. Polyrhythms, tempo shifts, changing time signatures. It combines technical mastery with the harmonic boundary-pushing of hard bop jazz and the melodic complexity of twelve tone serial music. It is some of the most complex music that exists today. Do you know what it sounds like? + Show Spoiler [TOOMANYWORDS] +
When discussing music, the terms 'good' and 'bad' can mean anything from 'enjoyable to me', 'calming', 'energizing', 'complex'. Disagreements occur when people use the same word to mean different things.
For example, I say that technical death metal is better than dub step. What I happen to mean is that technical death metal is more complex than dubstep. Someone else might exlaim "I DISAGREE! Dubstep is better than technical death metal!", whereas they might mean that dubstep is more enjoyable to me than technical death metal.
Why not avoid the confusion? Get rid of the value-laden terminology altogether and say what you really mean - that a song is more enjoyable, more complex, easier to listen to, more demanding to the listener, good background music, good for sex etc. Anything but good/bad. When you talk about music in that way, you are not actually describing the music, you are merely describing your preferences.
I agree, music theory is descriptive, not normative. Hence the reason economics, philosophy, music theory (and psychology, sociology, etc) are barely considered sciences. I did mention theory is "a pseudo-science at best."
I'm glad you listen to what people might consider "avant-garde" genres of music but I never mentioned the mentality of complex = good. I simply said that there was a unifying theme to what most people consider "good music" which is embodied in music theory.
I think you didn't understand my underlying point - that is, ultimately, all music is either objectively good or bad. If an artist insists on using clashing chords in retarded syncopated rhythm, you could say his music is "bad." Obviously the word "good" or "bad" implies opinion, but if you want to nitpick over semantics I honestly don't think this conversation is worth continuing. At the risk of me sounding like an autistic tryhard, I feel like I should embellish on this. Music is intrinsically made of sound waves, and thus can be quantified with mathematics; there have been multiple books and studies written/done on the subject of "aesthetically pleasing melodies justified using mathematics."
In the same way, beauty, a subject we can all agree is completely subjective, can be measured. A well-proportioned, balanced face looks more aesthetically pleasing to our minds than someone less endowed. Of course, you could say that the measurements set forth to measure something like this is predetermined by an aggregation of popular opinion, but in the same way, one could also remark that popular opinion on a biological function as finding someone attractive is based on our genetic information, and thus can also be scientifically quantified.
srsly dis srs bsness convo shudnt even b on KMD yo idk how we even got hurr
mebbe I shud describe a dream/pantasy i experiencd to make it fit betta in KMD?? srry dis aint gonna be as impressive as tuelite's cause i aint got gifs or nice pics to back it up.
so hurr i wus in da jungle with soyeon and younha and sojin and kmk and kim tae hee and seunghee and seungyeon (i guess mah subconsciousness ran out of faves to put in) just chillan wit all of em and dey were taking a bubble bath next to da waterfall and i was sippan some coke n rum den suddenly some voice yelled YO DAWG U AINT SUPPOSD TO B HURR DIS IS KPOP ONLY so kmk and younha and kth got magically bootd out by dis gigantic whale that had a nametag of steph hwang. so i wus left with like 4 of em and suddenly da voice shouts EY DIS GIRL ALREADY MARRIED U CANT GIT ON DAT DAS JUST WRONG so da whale appears again and boots seunghee out. so im just sittan dere devastated cuz half of mah tribe in da jungle just got decimated by sum whale when outta nowhere came sum girl from a new group calld EXIDSPICAFIXCHAOSBAP and told me we challenge u for ur land, so dere was gonna b some kinda danceoff for it. so mah tribe starts putting on tribal warfare paint and it turns out it wus Yayaya makeup and i yelld at soyeon YO GURL DIS WAS UR WERST SINGLE HOW WE GONNA WIN DIS and she told me wit som weirdass seductive look DUN WERRY WE GOT DIS n frenchd me but den all da other gurrs got jelly so they stabbed her to deth and started some weird civil war and den all of em were ded and i was left with da remnants of mah ded tribe n i woke up at dat moment yellan DIS SHIT CRAY.
so hurr i wus in da jungle with soyeon and younha and sojin and kmk and kim tae hee and seunghee and seungyeon (i guess mah subconsciousness ran out of faves to put in) just chillan wit all of em and dey were taking a bubble bath next to da waterfall and i was sippan some coke n rum den suddenly some voice yelled YO DAWG U AINT SUPPOSD TO B HURR DIS IS KPOP ONLY so kmk and younha and kth got magically bootd out by dis gigantic whale that had a nametag of steph hwang. so i wus left with like 4 of em and suddenly da voice shouts EY DIS GIRL ALREADY MARRIED U CANT GIT ON DAT DAS JUST WRONG so da whale appears again and boots seunghee out. so im just sittan dere devastated cuz half of mah tribe in da jungle just got decimated by sum whale when outta nowhere came sum girl from a new group calld EXIDSPICAFIXCHAOSBAP and told me we challenge u for ur land, so dere was gonna b some kinda danceoff for it. so mah tribe starts putting on tribal warfare paint and it turns out it wus Yayaya makeup and i yelld at soyeon YO GURL DIS WAS UR WERST SINGLE HOW WE GONNA WIN DIS and she told me wit som weirdass seductive look DUN WERRY WE GOT DIS n frenchd me but den all da other gurrs got jelly so they stabbed her to deth and started some weird civil war and den all of em were ded and i was left with da remnants of mah ded tribe n i woke up at dat moment yellan DIS SHIT CRAY.
Did you at least bed the corpses? Gotta make sure nothing goes to waste, bro
On February 21 2012 16:20 zefreak wrote: Music theory isn't what you guys think it is. Music theory is DESCRIPTIVE not NORMATIVE. There is no such thing as objectively good music, because there is no such thing as objective value. Value is subjective, and this has been accepted by the vast majority of Economists and Philosophers for over 90 years now. Accept it. The scales and harmonies popularized in western music are not universal. This is because they are not objectively better than other scales and harmonies, they are cultural norms and that isn't a bad thing. Sure, it makes being a music snob harder because you can't establish your valuations as fact, but if you love music you shouldn't need to.
By the way, I listen to some of the most complex forms of music ever created. Music that utilizes all the techniques that a musician has at his disposal. Polyrhythms, tempo shifts, changing time signatures. It combines technical mastery with the harmonic boundary-pushing of hard bop jazz and the melodic complexity of twelve tone serial music. It is some of the most complex music that exists today. Do you know what it sounds like? + Show Spoiler [TOOMANYWORDS] +
When discussing music, the terms 'good' and 'bad' can mean anything from 'enjoyable to me', 'calming', 'energizing', 'complex'. Disagreements occur when people use the same word to mean different things.
For example, I say that technical death metal is better than dub step. What I happen to mean is that technical death metal is more complex than dubstep. Someone else might exlaim "I DISAGREE! Dubstep is better than technical death metal!", whereas they might mean that dubstep is more enjoyable to me than technical death metal.
Why not avoid the confusion? Get rid of the value-laden terminology altogether and say what you really mean - that a song is more enjoyable, more complex, easier to listen to, more demanding to the listener, good background music, good for sex etc. Anything but good/bad. When you talk about music in that way, you are not actually describing the music, you are merely describing your preferences.
I agree, music theory is descriptive, not normative. Hence the reason economics, philosophy, music theory (and psychology, sociology, etc) are barely considered sciences. I did mention theory is "a pseudo-science at best."
I'm glad you listen to what people might consider "avant-garde" genres of music but I never mentioned the mentality of complex = good. I simply said that there was a unifying theme to what most people consider "good music" which is embodied in music theory.
I think you didn't understand my underlying point - that is, ultimately, all music is either objectively good or bad. If an artist insists on using clashing chords in retarded syncopated rhythm, you could say his music is "bad." Obviously the word "good" or "bad" implies opinion, but if you want to nitpick over semantics I honestly don't think this conversation is worth continuing. At the risk of me sounding like an autistic tryhard, I feel like I should embellish on this. Music is intrinsically made of sound waves, and thus can be quantified with mathematics; there have been multiple books and studies written/done on the subject of "aesthetically pleasing melodies justified using mathematics."
In the same way, beauty, a subject we can all agree is completely subjective, can be measured. A well-proportioned, balanced face looks more aesthetically pleasing to our minds than someone less endowed. Of course, you could say that the measurements set forth to measure something like this is predetermined by an aggregation of popular opinion, but in the same way, one could also remark that popular opinion on a biological function as finding someone attractive is based on our genetic information, and thus can also be scientifically quantified.
srsly dis srs bsness convo shudnt even b on KMD yo idk how we even got hurr
mebbe I shud describe a dream/pantasy i experiencd to make it fit betta in KMD?? srry dis aint gonna be as impressive as tuelite's cause i aint got gifs or nice pics to back it up.
so hurr i wus in da jungle with soyeon and younha and sojin and kmk and kim tae hee and seunghee and seungyeon (i guess mah subconsciousness ran out of faves to put in) just chillan wit all of em and dey were taking a bubble bath next to da waterfall and i was sippan some coke n rum den suddenly some voice yelled YO DAWG U AINT SUPPOSD TO B HURR DIS IS KPOP ONLY so kmk and younha and kth got magically bootd out by dis gigantic whale that had a nametag of steph hwang. so i wus left with like 4 of em and suddenly da voice shouts EY DIS GIRL ALREADY MARRIED U CANT GIT ON DAT DAS JUST WRONG so da whale appears again and boots seunghee out. so im just sittan dere devastated cuz half of mah tribe in da jungle just got decimated by sum whale when outta nowhere came sum girl from a new group calld EXIDSPICAFIXCHAOSBAP and told me we challenge u for ur land, so dere was gonna b some kinda danceoff for it. so mah tribe starts putting on tribal warfare paint and it turns out it wus Yayaya makeup and i yelld at soyeon YO GURL DIS WAS UR WERST SINGLE HOW WE GONNA WIN DIS and she told me wit som weirdass seductive look DUN WERRY WE GOT DIS n frenchd me but den all da other gurrs got jelly so they stabbed her to deth and started some weird civil war and den all of em were ded and i was left with da remnants of mah ded tribe n i woke up at dat moment yellan DIS SHIT CRAY.
wow it feels good to get that off your chest.
I understand what you are saying but still disagree. First of all, music theory, economics etc are sciences to the degree which they are descriptive and not normative. Science is about describing phenomena, not establishing value. Sure, there are regularities among human preferences, hence why there are several established sexual preferences that cross cultural boundaries, but there is a great deal of variation as well. Likewise in music. By the way, im studying cognitive science and love learning about the brain, and the relationship between music and the brain is not quite that simple. First of all, many traditional asian forms of music are vastly different from western ones, although western musical trends have enveloped those countries contemporary music. Some of them didn't even allow polyphony or harmony at all, and relied solely on melody and rhythm (with much greater emphasis on variety in scales and modes than western counterparts. If music was as hardwired in the brain as you suggest, why would there be variation to such a large extent? Cultural evolution explains the saturation of western motifs better.
On a more fundamental level, I still disagree. Music is not the sounds but the organization and arrangement. This is why music can be written down, performed on many different instruments and yet remain the same piece of music. Even if I accept that some harmonies are more pleasing to the human brain (and I do, there is ample evidence of this), it does not follow that a piece of music is good or bad to the extent that it is pleasing to hear. Music is about expression as well. If music were only about what 'sounds good' then everyone would just listen to vivaldi and people would think Stravinsky, Berlioz etc were trash. (Stravinsky regularly broke the rules of harmony, famously constructing melodies with notes lying outside of the harmonic key) And what about Jazz?
There are so many established forms of music that are known precisely because they break the boundaries of accepted musical forms. People listen to Sun Ra and Miles Davis not because they sound pleasing (they usually don't) but because its an intellectual form of music. Its more about the idea than the sound. That is why you generally need an understanding of music theory to really appreciate these kinds of music. You need to know what the established form is in order to understand how they subvert it and why it is clever. (edit: the more you listen to it, the 'better' it begins to sound because you begin to internalize the new rules and forms. This is why people progress from less extreme forms of a genre to more. For example, peoples musical progression would probably go
Swing or big band > bebop > hard bop > modal jazz > freestyle jazz
Also why I am not surprised at the reaction to the Brain Drill video I posted. It took me all the way from
Old 80s heavy meta > thrash metal > speed metal > metalcore > deathcore > melodic death metal > death metal > technical death metal
Thats a lot of music to listen to before someone can actually enjoy listening to TDM.
Nobody starts out liking 12 tone or serial music. It takes a while to get there.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/o6hy8.jpg)
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