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On November 24 2023 14:01 Hyperbola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 12:21 Sd13 wrote:
I find it amusing that the way you perceive this might be exactly how the World Government propaganda work on the public.
For example, think about your claim about Kuma's quadruple digits body count, where does it come from when so far as we see in the chapter, the King that he overthrown/fought twice is still alive, the bounty hunters he fought are also still alive. If you consider body count not as those killed but injured, then all those who are attacked by others and have to defend themselves in the process also racking up body counts? We don't know who die off-screen and can only make assumption regarding casualties that are not shown but so far as what is presented on the page, Kuma has not been painted as an active killer/murderer but more of a protector that only participate in fight/war whence he sees the need to protect people.
He is a pirate because he got labeled the Tyrant by the World Government (even though he is chosen as King by his nation's people) and have to flee so that his family and countrymen is not involved with the fight his labeling brought upon. And in the process of defending himself against all Marines and bounty hunters that are ignorance of his circumstances, he got the bounty.
Personally, I wouldn't interpret Kuma's "pacifist" word here the same as you in this case, that's just my 2 cents. Lol, you really don't understand what the term "pacifist" means, do you? If Kuma were a true pacifist then he would have practiced nonviolent resistance, kinda like Gandhi. A true pacifist would have fled from any violence, which is perfect for Kuma since he can fly with his fruit. Try to imagine Gandhi except instead of being a political activist he was part of the Indian equivalent of the Mujaheddin. After a decade of sailing around the former British Empire and starting revolts in the colonies, he returned to India and overthrew the government and placed an Indian nationalist in charge of the country. Then, after being branded a terrorist he was forced to flee and became an international fugitive. That doesn't sound like the Gandhi I remember, in fact, that sounds a whole lot more like Osama Bin Laden!
Gandi's pacifism only worked on the British, who didn't want to be there anymore anyways. It was wholly unable to deal with the religious violence that came after, and eventually resulted in Ghandi's assassination. The most successful prime ministers of India have not embraced his philosophy, including Indira Gandhi (no relation AFAIK), who was extremely hawkish and didn't take shit from the Chinese or the Muslims. The pacifism of Ghandi where you are essentially saying, "Ahh I am so weak and pathetic give me political power" only has ever worked in England, America, and places where England and America were basically making the call (see also Israel right now, South Africa 1990s). It wasn't a winning play for the Christians of Egypt over the last 40 years, they have been fully ethnically cleansed. Same the Armenians in the early 1900s. It is a tactic that basically only works if your opponents are an extreme outlier, that being Anglo-Americans, or the client states thereof.
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On November 24 2023 16:34 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 14:01 Hyperbola wrote:On November 24 2023 12:21 Sd13 wrote:
I find it amusing that the way you perceive this might be exactly how the World Government propaganda work on the public.
For example, think about your claim about Kuma's quadruple digits body count, where does it come from when so far as we see in the chapter, the King that he overthrown/fought twice is still alive, the bounty hunters he fought are also still alive. If you consider body count not as those killed but injured, then all those who are attacked by others and have to defend themselves in the process also racking up body counts? We don't know who die off-screen and can only make assumption regarding casualties that are not shown but so far as what is presented on the page, Kuma has not been painted as an active killer/murderer but more of a protector that only participate in fight/war whence he sees the need to protect people.
He is a pirate because he got labeled the Tyrant by the World Government (even though he is chosen as King by his nation's people) and have to flee so that his family and countrymen is not involved with the fight his labeling brought upon. And in the process of defending himself against all Marines and bounty hunters that are ignorance of his circumstances, he got the bounty.
Personally, I wouldn't interpret Kuma's "pacifist" word here the same as you in this case, that's just my 2 cents. Lol, you really don't understand what the term "pacifist" means, do you? If Kuma were a true pacifist then he would have practiced nonviolent resistance, kinda like Gandhi. A true pacifist would have fled from any violence, which is perfect for Kuma since he can fly with his fruit. Try to imagine Gandhi except instead of being a political activist he was part of the Indian equivalent of the Mujaheddin. After a decade of sailing around the former British Empire and starting revolts in the colonies, he returned to India and overthrew the government and placed an Indian nationalist in charge of the country. Then, after being branded a terrorist he was forced to flee and became an international fugitive. That doesn't sound like the Gandhi I remember, in fact, that sounds a whole lot more like Osama Bin Laden! Gandi's pacifism only worked on the British, who didn't want to be there anymore anyways. It was wholly unable to deal with the religious violence that came after, and eventually resulted in Ghandi's assassination. The most successful prime ministers of India have not embraced his philosophy, including Indira Gandhi (no relation AFAIK), who was extremely hawkish and didn't take shit from the Chinese or the Muslims. The pacifism of Ghandi where you are essentially saying, "Ahh I am so weak and pathetic give me political power" only has ever worked in England, America, and places where England and America were basically making the call (see also Israel right now, South Africa 1990s). It wasn't a winning play for the Christians of Egypt over the last 40 years, they have been fully ethnically cleansed. Same the Armenians in the early 1900s. It is a tactic that basically only works if your opponents are an extreme outlier, that being Anglo-Americans, or the client states thereof.
this has literally nothing to do with hyperbola's point that kuma isnt the pacifist he claims to be.
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Just as everything pacifism has shades. There are absolute pacifists, there are pragmatic pacifists, there are moral pacifists. Some pacifists are religious some are reformed soldiers etc. Hyperbola true to his name, takes a thing in the blandest dumbest sense possible and takes it from there. Pacifist is an outlook on the world an ideology you try to pursue. It doesn't mean you always succeed. It also does not invalidate you calling yourself that if your acts are consistent with it. I have been lurking for years and this is the first and last time I would like to comment on this but I never know if you are being dense on purpose or just generally trying to say really "wild" things.
Some considerations:
- We are reading a fictional tale.
- We are reading a fan translation.
- Interestingly you could make the same argument about Kuma being labelled tyrant, or being labelled daddy, or being labelled a revolutionary.
- Interestingly as well, if you were reading it while paying close attention, you can see neither of these are labels that Kuma says about himself.
- The meaning of the added word "spineless" -- your selective ignorance makes it harder to agree with your ideas or argue with you in good faith -- added by Kuma in reply to Vegapunk
- The statement itself about being a saint was being brought up by another character whose opinion then you should attack perhaps.
With these in mind you are coming off as nonsensical. If I misinterpreted what you meant I am sorry, please make sure to explain it then to me and I will be amending my half-personal comment with an apology.
Edit:
On November 25 2023 01:37 Shellshock wrote:
The real story should be about how dragon does nothing to help his friends. The anti Luffy
Is it known how Dragon Vegapunk met? Recommending him seemed to me helpful. I am not quite sure about the technical details but also want to understand more what is going to happen with Kuma's soul or whatever and the disease of bonney's because something along the lines will cause him to end up slowly losing his identity. How that happened is going to resolve a cca. 20 year old question for me.
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United States97277 Posts
The real story should be about how dragon does nothing to help his friends. The anti Luffy
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Yeah everyones railing on Dragon for casually just being like "yeah two extremely high ranking friends got sent to jail. How you doin' though?"
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On November 24 2023 17:04 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 16:34 cLutZ wrote:On November 24 2023 14:01 Hyperbola wrote:On November 24 2023 12:21 Sd13 wrote:
I find it amusing that the way you perceive this might be exactly how the World Government propaganda work on the public.
For example, think about your claim about Kuma's quadruple digits body count, where does it come from when so far as we see in the chapter, the King that he overthrown/fought twice is still alive, the bounty hunters he fought are also still alive. If you consider body count not as those killed but injured, then all those who are attacked by others and have to defend themselves in the process also racking up body counts? We don't know who die off-screen and can only make assumption regarding casualties that are not shown but so far as what is presented on the page, Kuma has not been painted as an active killer/murderer but more of a protector that only participate in fight/war whence he sees the need to protect people.
He is a pirate because he got labeled the Tyrant by the World Government (even though he is chosen as King by his nation's people) and have to flee so that his family and countrymen is not involved with the fight his labeling brought upon. And in the process of defending himself against all Marines and bounty hunters that are ignorance of his circumstances, he got the bounty.
Personally, I wouldn't interpret Kuma's "pacifist" word here the same as you in this case, that's just my 2 cents. Lol, you really don't understand what the term "pacifist" means, do you? If Kuma were a true pacifist then he would have practiced nonviolent resistance, kinda like Gandhi. A true pacifist would have fled from any violence, which is perfect for Kuma since he can fly with his fruit. Try to imagine Gandhi except instead of being a political activist he was part of the Indian equivalent of the Mujaheddin. After a decade of sailing around the former British Empire and starting revolts in the colonies, he returned to India and overthrew the government and placed an Indian nationalist in charge of the country. Then, after being branded a terrorist he was forced to flee and became an international fugitive. That doesn't sound like the Gandhi I remember, in fact, that sounds a whole lot more like Osama Bin Laden! Gandi's pacifism only worked on the British, who didn't want to be there anymore anyways. It was wholly unable to deal with the religious violence that came after, and eventually resulted in Ghandi's assassination. The most successful prime ministers of India have not embraced his philosophy, including Indira Gandhi (no relation AFAIK), who was extremely hawkish and didn't take shit from the Chinese or the Muslims. The pacifism of Ghandi where you are essentially saying, "Ahh I am so weak and pathetic give me political power" only has ever worked in England, America, and places where England and America were basically making the call (see also Israel right now, South Africa 1990s). It wasn't a winning play for the Christians of Egypt over the last 40 years, they have been fully ethnically cleansed. Same the Armenians in the early 1900s. It is a tactic that basically only works if your opponents are an extreme outlier, that being Anglo-Americans, or the client states thereof. this has literally nothing to do with hyperbola's point that kuma isnt the pacifist he claims to be.
It means Kuma isn't a pacifist within the narrow definition pioneered in a certain subset of countries (of which our author does not belong to). In a lot of ways, it is bizarre to talk about a guy like Ghandi or MLK as having won with pacifism. If they tried that shit in China, Syria, Nigeria, or Ancient Rome they would be known as "unmarked grave # 1200021." The real praise should land with the people who didn't kill them immediately.
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Look, I'm a Vegan, alright? Just not your typical kind of Vegan. I only eat meat sometimes when I'm really hungry or when I can't find a good veggie restaurant nearby. You can't only just survive on vegetables, it's impossible. I also work for McDonald's and eat the leftover hamburgers that would have been thrown away anyway. But outside of that I'm 100% Vegan!
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Seems like he was being kind of tongue-in-cheek about the pacifist thing, given he also called himself spineless
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On November 26 2023 05:12 Hyperbola wrote:
Look, I'm a Vegan, alright? Just not your typical kind of Vegan. I only eat meat sometimes when I'm really hungry or when I can't find a good veggie restaurant nearby. You can't only just survive on vegetables, it's impossible. I also work for McDonald's and eat the leftover hamburgers that would have been thrown away anyway. But outside of that I'm 100% Vegan!
What is the number of vegans who were locked in a paddock with lambs and firepits that remained so after several days of starving?
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Wow, why am I reading about Gandhi and vegans on a thread about One Piece?
For me, this seemed like an obligatory but bland chapter for an eventual explanation and lore dump about Kuma's condition.
Am I on drugs or is Bonney right now an actual kid living in an adult body? Like Tom Hanks in that one movie.
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On November 27 2023 01:10 herMan wrote:
Wow, why am I reading about Gandhi and vegans on a thread about One Piece?
For me, this seemed like an obligatory but bland chapter for an eventual explanation and lore dump about Kuma's condition.
Am I on drugs or is Bonney right now an actual kid living in an adult body? Like Tom Hanks in that one movie.
Unless something gets revealed in the coming chapters, I believe shes like 12 or 13 in the 'present'
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Well that certainly went in an unexpected direction. Foosha village? I think this is the first legitimately unpredictable thing to happen in this flashback. I'm interested in seeing where Oda goes with this. It better not be something stupid like Woop Slap being a Rocks pirate, like the internet is memeing right now. I think there have been too many "reveals" with basically every old character being a former Roger/Rocks pirate.
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On November 30 2023 12:27 Hyperbola wrote:
Well that certainly went in an unexpected direction. Foosha village? I think this is the first legitimately unpredictable thing to happen in this flashback. I'm interested in seeing where Oda goes with this. It better not be something stupid like Woop Slap being a Rocks pirate, like the internet is memeing right now. I think there have been too many "reveals" with basically every old character being a former Roger/Rocks pirate.
In the timeline this is about 3 years before Luffy leaves, so its almost certainly not the Gum Gum fruit they are after.
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Austria24422 Posts
Does that line up with the Sabo incident? That would at least explain how Sabo ended up with the revolutionary army and why he cares so much about Kuma.
Edit: nevermind, seems I missed a chapter there lol. Sabo is already with them.
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United States97277 Posts
He’s there at the request of his fellow warlock crocodile to remove any lingering memories luffy has of his mom
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On November 30 2023 18:05 Olli wrote:
Does that line up with the Sabo incident? That would at least explain how Sabo ended up with the revolutionary army and why he cares so much about Kuma.
Edit: nevermind, seems I missed a chapter there lol. Sabo is already with them.
No. Sabo was much earlier in the timeline.
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Just a random thought that popped into my head, but, isn't Kuma getting built up to be one of the strongest in the verse at this point? His fruit is ridiculous, he has the special buccaneer body, he was tanking people's pain for decades, he conquered a nation, no-diffed a Navy re-enforcement fleet, his "mindless" body just assaulted the red line then escaped Akainu. He's probably going to go toe to toe with either Kizaru or Saturn to end the arc. The only thing we havent seen from him yet is Haki feats, but he certainly will display them soon, although his personality doesn't seem to vibe well with conquerors.
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Adding to the above, in hindsight his last bounty makes no sense. Not to get power scale level-y but the bounty inflation/disparity is getting quite crazy imo. He had both the strength and the notoriety.
P.S. Also, I'm not quite sure where we're going with the Foosha village stuff, but predestination is such a trite shonen thing. Hope Oda surprises us in a good way.
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On December 04 2023 15:24 Nirli wrote:
Adding to the above, in hindsight his last bounty makes no sense. Not to get power scale level-y but the bounty inflation/disparity is getting quite crazy imo. He had both the strength and the notoriety.
P.S. Also, I'm not quite sure where we're going with the Foosha village stuff, but predestination is such a trite shonen thing. Hope Oda surprises us in a good way.
Crocodile's bounty was 81 Million before the time skip and now it's 1.9 Billion. Either he became 2300% stronger (more dangerous to the govt) or the One Piece world's economy is going through a hyper inflationary period.
The real answer is that Oda uses bounties to generate hype for fights, kind of like other shonens use power levels. A big number is only shocking once and then it becomes a standard. That's why there's so much inflation because there's no better way to make a new villain appear threatening than by giving him a bounty that's 10 times larger than anything seen before. Unfortunately, this creates issues with consistency. But that's just Shonens in a nutshell.
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For Croco in particular, without diving too deep, he is technically the first Shichibikai (that we know of), so his bounty was frozen way back, so it kind of makes sense. But that may be just following the new rules that were established after the fact.
Plus he is the definition of the shady guy, staying under the radar up until the best moment is kind of his thing (Blackbeard would be another example).
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EPT
