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On October 15 2023 08:24 Hyperbola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2023 03:14 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
I would argue that the idea that the World Government is a brutal but fair bureaucracy is more of a fanon thing than what was actually been depicted before the timeskip (which to be fair was quite little).
They covered up the atrocities committed by Crocodile and Baroque Works, committed genocide (they were regretful that a useful population of academics were annihilated; perhaps not necessarily because they had to commit war crimes), and openly allowed slavery.
I actually don’t see any indications that the larger World Government as a whole was ever as “fair” or “benevolent” as fans think it was.
Because they wanted to maintain their reputation and the Shichibukai system which was designed to pin pirates against other pirates and maintain the balance of the world. They also definitely got their money's worth at Marineford. It was an efficient system. Definitely not the moral thing to do, but it's the most logical thing to do. Imagine you're a government that has to deal with non-stop terrorism across an entire planet. You're constantly short on manpower so what do you do? You deputize some of these terrorists and give them privileges in return for their allegiance. Brutal, but fair. Once they got the upgraded Pacifistas and the Seraphim, however, the Shichibukai were no longer needed and the government allowed the system to be dissolved. It makes sense when you think about it from a realpolitik standpoint. As for Ohara, the government killed them off to hide the ancient weapons that could threaten the world. Even if that was a lie to hide the truth about the void century, it still makes sense since whatever secret the void century holds can threaten the legitimacy of their regime, so the most logical thing to do is to exterminate those who threaten you. Evil? No. Literally every country throughout our history has acted this way. In a world like One Piece, being "benevolent" is a very low bar since, as stated before, there is a constant global threat of terrorists at every corner of the planet. Just being the guys who maintain order and take out these terrorists is already enough to be considered "good". There are bad actors in the marines like Axe Hand Morgan, but there are also good actors like Garp and Sengoku. In fact, even characters like Akainu who many consider to be "evil" are actually quite good. He might be ruthless, but think about the world he lives in. He's a product of an environment where literally every square inch of the planet is a potentially active war zone. He's harsh and is willing to kill disloyal marines because he's at war 24/7 and any mutiny needs to be met with capital punishment.
i think you and i have different views of morality.
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On October 15 2023 08:50 CHEONSOYUN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2023 08:24 Hyperbola wrote:On October 15 2023 03:14 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
I would argue that the idea that the World Government is a brutal but fair bureaucracy is more of a fanon thing than what was actually been depicted before the timeskip (which to be fair was quite little).
They covered up the atrocities committed by Crocodile and Baroque Works, committed genocide (they were regretful that a useful population of academics were annihilated; perhaps not necessarily because they had to commit war crimes), and openly allowed slavery.
I actually don’t see any indications that the larger World Government as a whole was ever as “fair” or “benevolent” as fans think it was.
Because they wanted to maintain their reputation and the Shichibukai system which was designed to pin pirates against other pirates and maintain the balance of the world. They also definitely got their money's worth at Marineford. It was an efficient system. Definitely not the moral thing to do, but it's the most logical thing to do. Imagine you're a government that has to deal with non-stop terrorism across an entire planet. You're constantly short on manpower so what do you do? You deputize some of these terrorists and give them privileges in return for their allegiance. Brutal, but fair. Once they got the upgraded Pacifistas and the Seraphim, however, the Shichibukai were no longer needed and the government allowed the system to be dissolved. It makes sense when you think about it from a realpolitik standpoint. As for Ohara, the government killed them off to hide the ancient weapons that could threaten the world. Even if that was a lie to hide the truth about the void century, it still makes sense since whatever secret the void century holds can threaten the legitimacy of their regime, so the most logical thing to do is to exterminate those who threaten you. Evil? No. Literally every country throughout our history has acted this way. In a world like One Piece, being "benevolent" is a very low bar since, as stated before, there is a constant global threat of terrorists at every corner of the planet. Just being the guys who maintain order and take out these terrorists is already enough to be considered "good". There are bad actors in the marines like Axe Hand Morgan, but there are also good actors like Garp and Sengoku. In fact, even characters like Akainu who many consider to be "evil" are actually quite good. He might be ruthless, but think about the world he lives in. He's a product of an environment where literally every square inch of the planet is a potentially active war zone. He's harsh and is willing to kill disloyal marines because he's at war 24/7 and any mutiny needs to be met with capital punishment. i think you and i have different views of morality.
What a childish thing to say. And also a false equivalence. The "morality" of individuals and governments are two entirely separate things.
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so the most logical thing to do is to exterminate those who threaten you. Evil? No. Literally every country throughout our history has acted this way.
That is most definitely evil. And just because every country has done it doesnt mean it wasnt evil
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On October 15 2023 03:40 cLutZ wrote:
If day the biggest issue i see with the 5 elders and imy being powerful combatants is the ending seem to be multiplying, and I already find that there were too many in wano.
Tbf they held the world for 800 years. They probably had many yonko level nuisance throughout history and they are still holding the world till the current generation (which they will obviously go down)
Sometimes people have so much bias over pirates that they forget they arent even the dominating military force in one piece.
And besides being strong doesnt mean you have to risk yourself. When you have the world to draft strong soldiers as well why risk yourself
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I understand that, we just now appear to have the 3 admirals, Akainu, Kong, 5elders, imu, and Blackbeard on the plate as enemies that need beat downs.
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On October 14 2023 22:26 Hyperbola wrote:Wow, you guys completely articulated my issues with the direction of One Piece in a better way than I ever could. The fact that: - The world government has shifted over time from being a brutal but fair bureaucracy that was willing to do whatever it takes to maintain world stability to a typical evil Sith empire that literally genocides entire islands for fun.
- The Gorisei went from being dignified Members of Parliament to being an evil Justice League who debase themselves before some random Sith Emperor that is so stupidly evil that he decides to use his death star on a random tax-paying island and cause a worldwide catastrophe by raising the sea level.
- That Luffy went from being a kid with a big dream and a lot of guts to being the messiah chosen one with everything already laid out for him by his destiny.
- That the One Piece world changed from being a somewhat believable Pirates of the Caribbean, Age of Exploration type setting to a futuristic sci-fi "we have robots, lasers, machine guns, cloning technology, and space ships" setting and that it makes no sense for anyone to use swords or flintlocks or sailing ships.
...have all been incredibly disappointing to witness. That said, I do still like One Piece and am willing to see it through. It's no longer the gold standard of manga for me but it's still a fun adventure and very entertaining to read if you don't think about it too much.
Excellent posts by both Olli and Hyperbola. This basic shonen degradation of the storyline has disappointed me big time. Pirates opposing a flawed government system is wayyy more interesting than punching some big baddie to make problems go away...
The latest chapter felt pretty jarring as the WG has been shown to carefully manage their public image. You'd think that keeping the Celestial Dragons hidden in Mariejois would be one solution to prevent a dozen annual public disasters.
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On October 20 2023 15:48 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2023 03:40 cLutZ wrote:
If day the biggest issue i see with the 5 elders and imy being powerful combatants is the ending seem to be multiplying, and I already find that there were too many in wano. Tbf they held the world for 800 years. They probably had many yonko level nuisance throughout history and they are still holding the world till the current generation (which they will obviously go down) Sometimes people have so much bias over pirates that they forget they arent even the dominating military force in one piece. And besides being strong doesnt mean you have to risk yourself. When you have the world to draft strong soldiers as well why risk yourself
I always thought the implication was that the Yonkos would be stronger if they were unified.
Like in Marineford they gathered a lot of their forces to deal with a single heavily weakened Yonko and when the second Yonko appeared they accepted a temporary truce. Back then they needed 3 admirals and the Shishibukai to subdue one Yonko crew, with two of the three fighting for the top sport afterwards. It seemed to me like an alliance of just two Yonko would be a very serious threat for the WG.
Now there are half a dozen admirals and the old admirals are scaled up to the point where they are comparable to Yonkos. Like the current implication is that a Gorosei and an admiral could probably smash Whole Cake Island without even using Saturn. That was not my impression from Marineford at all.
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New Chapter is out early
Interesting bit of continuity in the lore with how the Dragon fruit seemingly rejected Ikanov as a host. The Gorosei mentioned that Zoans have a will of their own so I guess the Dragon fruit didn't want to spend the next 50+ years as gay dragon like the one from NeverEnding Story, lol. It does make me wonder the exact mechanism the fruits use to enforce their will. Do they manipulate fate somehow? Or do they control people's minds? Vegapunk probably knows the answer.
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where did you see anything about a fruit rejecting ivankov? seems pretty clear a person straight up intervened
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Yeah Big Mom took it which makes sense cause we know she gives it to The Rookie there
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From how it's going, we have at least 6-7 years of OP at the minimum, I'm OK with that.
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On October 26 2023 14:11 evilfatsh1t wrote:
where did you see anything about a fruit rejecting ivankov? seems pretty clear a person straight up intervened
I see it as the same way the Gomu fruit keeps "escaping" the government for the last 800 years. Last time it "escaped" was when Shanks attacked Who's-Who's ship and stole it. So it's not like it grows legs and walks away. I'm leaning more towards the fruits manipulating destiny somehow.
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When it was showing all the people who were in Rock's crew, who were the last two? I recognized Whitebeard, Shiki, Big Mom, Kaido, Stussy, Gloriosa, and I think the one drinking was Captain John. But who were the last two, who didn't have dialogue?
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One of em is probably Ochoku, the king or top pirate or whatever of Hachinosu before Blackbeard took over
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Ochoku is probably the one in the bottom left because we don't know who that is and he was alive at least until Blackbeard took over Hachinosu.
This picture from Thriller Bark has a bunch of other ones: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/55d751f5474f7e32b4ea7bf164913841369f773c41e282525fc1af55a5d10f71.jpg?w=800&h=617
The drinker is almost definitely Captain John (also at Thriller Bark). The guy with the helmet appears to be dead in Thriller Bark. Could be Silver Axe, but has a sword, not axe in Thriller Bark and there's another one in Silver Armor and has an axe. We also see the guy with the red cape and wolverine claws in chapter 1096.
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On October 27 2023 10:24 RenSC2 wrote:Ochoku is probably the one in the bottom left because we don't know who that is and he was alive at least until Blackbeard took over Hachinosu. This picture from Thriller Bark has a bunch of other ones: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/55d751f5474f7e32b4ea7bf164913841369f773c41e282525fc1af55a5d10f71.jpg?w=800&h=617The drinker is almost definitely Captain John (also at Thriller Bark). The guy with the helmet appears to be dead in Thriller Bark. Could be Silver Axe, but has a sword, not axe in Thriller Bark and there's another one in Silver Armor and has an axe. We also see the guy with the red cape and wolverine claws in chapter 1096.
I remembered Captain John from back at Thriller Bark, but not the other two. Nice spot! In retrospect its kind of amusing how Kaido was the one who originally annihilated Moria's crew, and Moria turns around and reanimates at least three dead-former crewmates of Kaido's to use in his army
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Crazy to see callbacks to Thriller Bark god knows however many years later
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I thought the claw guy was most probably Xebec? Based on the hair style which seem to be similar.
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New chapter out!
The current flashback is making me question how old Bonney actually is. The current chapter ends 14 years before the present. If we are to believe that Ginny is Bonney's mother (which is a safe bet, I think), then it doesn't seem like she has even been born yet, as of 14 years ago. Also, another flashback showing Bonney as a child with Kuma had Kuma looking much older than he does in the current flashback. So unless Bonney has been born in secret and the flashback has just neglected to mention or show her for whatever reason... Bonney might be an actual child. Like, 13 years old, max. And just uses her Devil Fruit to appear older.
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Or she is an adopted child?
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EPT
