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On April 10 2019 06:23 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
DnD Lawful-Chaotic table is as pretty meaningless a morality spectrum as you can get. It be as useful as adding introvert-extrovert as a morality spectrum. Zoro is obviously Introvert Good and Blackbeard is Extrovert Evil.
Imo it helps filter law and belief out of morality.
Intuitively most people order lawful people as "better" in the on the morality scale, which isn't necessarily right if you think about how most people define good and evil as beneficial to society/people. We also tend to overrate goals.
Although in OP it's actually a bit reversed since the prosecutors of law are antagonists. But on a DnD scale I'd order Akainu as lawful evil and the revolutionaries as chaotic neutral while on a normal scale I'd probably rate both as grey with the revolutionaries leaning more to white and Akainu more to black.
On April 10 2019 13:38 Incognoto wrote:
Akainu is not evil. change my mind
Define evil please. Imo Akainu is dark grey, but it really depends on how you rate goals vs deeds.
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Do you believe that someone’s intentions take firm precedence over their actions when judging their character? Cause Akainu is, at minimum, a devious murderer with a chilling lack of respect for life.
He’s still my favorite badass, but for a man made of fucking lava he is a stone cold killer.
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Kizaru is more interesting as an antagonistic character. Unlike Akainu he's not obnoxiously unlikable and has a giant ambivalence about a lot of issues.
Akainu I feel like Oda really went out of his way to designate him as asshole. He was a lot cooler when he wasn't yelling all of his dialogue angrily.
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I think both need to be counted in.
I agree that Akainu's deeds are often evil. He's definitely a sociopath in power.
That being said he does what he does to preserve stability and allows a peaceful life for many. If you see the big picture he's likely a positive influence for more people than vice versa. He's a sociopath and a tyrant, but he's also genuinely trying to improve the situation for many and likely is doing so at large.
So overall I'd rate his impact for society as net positive, but his ruthless way of doing things puts him in the dark grey area.
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But is he a societal net positive? He does a lot of dirty shit in the name of the World Governments rules, but realistically the World Government is a bunch of tyrannical monsters. I don’t think we’ve seen him do anything with a tangible positive outcome unless you’re the WG in which case his viciousness at Marineford and his nearly successful attempted genocide of Oharans are likely looking pretty positive.
I’m sure we’ll get some backstory that alleviates his incredibly badass bastardtudinousness, but from what we’ve seen he’s basically a monster.
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I'd say considering the world OP is set in yes, I assume that his hardline policies lead to stability and safety for a lot of people. The strawhats might be nice guys, but that doesn't go for most pirates and I assume that most nations are better off with the protection from the marines than without it, despite the occasional celestial dragon doing crazy shit.
Which is still an assumption, don't get me wrong. But considering that many arcs are about Luffy fighting tyrannical pirates like Arlong and Doflamingo, I don't think it's a stretch.
Tbh I don't mind his behavior in the marineford arc at all, he was trying to execute a wanted criminal and then fought the (wanted) criminals who tried to stop that. Objectively speaking that's his job as a marine. The genocide of the Oharans was why I'd rate him as dark grey mainly.
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The genocide of the Oharans was also his job as a Marine though, there are definitely Cobys in the Marines like there are Luffys in the pirate world, but I’d lump Akainu in as a Marine version of a Yonkou, not strictly chaotic evil slaughter pillage etc, etc, but considering he upholds an institution with serious moral failings and unlike Aokiji believes in hard lining and accepting those moral failings to a large extent for some vision of the greater good, he’s hardly a Luffy, or. Coby, or a Rayleigh, or a Garp.
And not to mention that plenty of marines are extortionist bastards to begin with, I mean that’s one of the first thing that OP makes clear, and why I think it’s safe to judge individuals and their actions, because the marines nor the pirates are any better than one another broadly speaking. Ton of rotten apples and a few Luffys and Cobys in there so we know to take them as individuals in an institution rather than as the institution.
I think Akainu is basically a hair off raw black from what we’ve seen of him, but I really love how big of a ruthless bastard he is and hope he doesn’t ever soften up.
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I mean Akainu was going to murder a marine for daring to stand up to him at Marineford.
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Going to? Didn't he randomly kill a few marines?
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I was talking about Coby in particular but it wouldn't surprise me if he killed others.
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would you guys say that all the generals and commanders of past wars throughout human history are evil? because thats basically what akainu is.
he holds a belief and he sticks to a cause, and whatever it takes to achieve that is a sacrifice that in his eyes should be made. its no different to humans sending literally thousands of people to a battlefield knowing theyre nothing but fodder.
coby was the equivalent of a deserter and we know how deserters were treated back then too.
its not fair to say that each and every one of the army generals back then were evil though
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Many historical figures would be evil by modern standards but are given a pass because it was a different time. Sending thousands to die for no gain is clearly evil. The presence of many people in the story who are good even by modern standards makes it fair to judge Akainu by modern standards as well.
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On April 11 2019 13:00 evilfatsh1t wrote:
would you guys say that all the generals and commanders of past wars throughout human history are evil? because thats basically what akainu is.
he holds a belief and he sticks to a cause, and whatever it takes to achieve that is a sacrifice that in his eyes should be made. its no different to humans sending literally thousands of people to a battlefield knowing theyre nothing but fodder.
coby was the equivalent of a deserter and we know how deserters were treated back then too.
its not fair to say that each and every one of the army generals back then were evil though
Not all, but ordering a genocide is definitely evil. Generals who would order such things would definitely be classified as such.
But believe it or not, there are also plenty of examples of generals from history who didn't simply exterminate every city they captured. There are even examples of generals who would forbid, or at least try to forbid, their men from looting and pillaging after capturing a city! The empires that lasted the longest were always the ones who would integrate the lands they captured.
What happened at Ohara was a straight up genocide. It wasn't simply a military conquest where Ohara got sacked and pillaged. It was a non-violent protest that ended up with the government systematically exterminating the population. And unarguably was an act of evil.
In the case of Coby, IF he had deserted in the face of the enemy, historically that is grounds for execution. Its a necessary evil to keep your army in line. Coby wasn't deserting, though. He was being insubordinate. And usually summarily executing your men for insubordination is something that the more tyrannical figures in history would do. The reasonable ones would probably find other means of punishment that wasn't murdering them on the spot.
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I think it's too early to give a final verdict on the genocide of the Oharans considering we know nothing of the void century. And even if there's nothing else that happened during the void century that would have terrible consequences if it got uncovered, imagine someone like Caesar or Doflamingo or Big Mum gets access to Poseidon, the consequences would far outweigh the genocide of the Oharans.
It's also noteworthy that Coby wasn't just insubordinate, he stood in his superior's way and actively undermined the morale of the troops. If I was a hardliner or even just thinking that what I'm doing is worth the sacrifices because I'm trying to remove a massive threat I'd consider him a traitor, or at least someone I need to remove in order to keep morale up. For Akainu's goals he's much worse than a deserter in the situation.
Don't get me wrong, Akainu is a sociopath, a tyrant and an asshole, but he's mostly doing his job and when he does something extreme (and he does on occasion) he has a good reason for it.
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We don't need to know anything about the Void Century to know that committing genocide was evil. They were a bunch of scholars and associated civilians!
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Yeah and if they uncover a weapon of mass destruction and the wrong guy gets it there are going to be millions of dead people. Forget about one destroyed island, someone like Big Mum would destroy islands cause she feels like it. OP doesn't have a stable political system where both sides develop nukes and develop a balance of terror
A high ranking politician makes decisions that affect thousands of lives all the time. And I'm not talking just about war declarations. The only reasonable way is to minimize casualties and close out worst case scenarios and the rediscovery of Poseidon f.e. is such a worst case scenario, with a world war definitely being on the horizon.
The only two reasonable choices the marines have are putting them on the leash or buster call.
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On April 12 2019 04:01 Archeon wrote:
Yeah and if they uncover a weapon of mass destruction and the wrong guy gets it there are going to be millions of dead people. Forget about one destroyed island, someone like Big Mum would destroy islands cause she feels like it.
A high ranking politician makes decisions that affect thousands of lives all the time. And I'm not talking just about war declarations. The only reasonable way is to minimize casualties and close out worst case scenarios and the rediscovery of Poseidon f.e. is such a worst case scenario, with a world war definitely being on the horizon.
The world government seems a lot more afraid of the truth about the Void Century getting out than even someone finding these super-weapons. Besides the world government is pretty interested in acquiring these super-weapons themselves, and they would have no qualms about using it against the revolutionaries.
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On April 12 2019 04:01 Archeon wrote:
Yeah and if they uncover a weapon of mass destruction and the wrong guy gets it there are going to be millions of dead people. Forget about one destroyed island, someone like Big Mum would destroy islands cause she feels like it. OP doesn't have a stable political system where both sides develop nukes and develop a balance of terror
A high ranking politician makes decisions that affect thousands of lives all the time. And I'm not talking just about war declarations. The only reasonable way is to minimize casualties and close out worst case scenarios and the rediscovery of Poseidon f.e. is such a worst case scenario, with a world war definitely being on the horizon.
The only two reasonable choices the marines have are putting them on the leash or buster call.
I guess we are gonna have to disagree here because I personally think the systematic genocide of civilians and non-combatants is never justified and always evil
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On April 12 2019 04:38 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2019 04:01 Archeon wrote:
Yeah and if they uncover a weapon of mass destruction and the wrong guy gets it there are going to be millions of dead people. Forget about one destroyed island, someone like Big Mum would destroy islands cause she feels like it. OP doesn't have a stable political system where both sides develop nukes and develop a balance of terror
A high ranking politician makes decisions that affect thousands of lives all the time. And I'm not talking just about war declarations. The only reasonable way is to minimize casualties and close out worst case scenarios and the rediscovery of Poseidon f.e. is such a worst case scenario, with a world war definitely being on the horizon.
The only two reasonable choices the marines have are putting them on the leash or buster call. I guess we are gonna have to disagree here because I personally think the systematic genocide of civilians and non-combatants is never justified and always evil
Yup then we have different opinions. Imo a person in power always has to weigh lives against each other and sometimes that means making really ugly calls. But that stems from thinking that inaction in power doesn't absolve from responsibility and if I have blood on my hands either way I'd prefer less blood over less responsibility.
Obviously the realistic cases in which that justifies killing at all are extremely rare, let alone genocides. The only realistic case I know would be 9/11, where I'd definitely shoot the planes down after the first hit if I was Secretary of Defense, at least once they get into a certain perimeter around major cities when it becomes very probable that the passengers can't overwhelm the kidnapper in time.
On April 12 2019 04:12 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2019 04:01 Archeon wrote:
Yeah and if they uncover a weapon of mass destruction and the wrong guy gets it there are going to be millions of dead people. Forget about one destroyed island, someone like Big Mum would destroy islands cause she feels like it.
A high ranking politician makes decisions that affect thousands of lives all the time. And I'm not talking just about war declarations. The only reasonable way is to minimize casualties and close out worst case scenarios and the rediscovery of Poseidon f.e. is such a worst case scenario, with a world war definitely being on the horizon. The world government seems a lot more afraid of the truth about the Void Century getting out than even someone finding these super-weapons. Besides the world government is pretty interested in acquiring these super-weapons themselves, and they would have no qualms about using it against the revolutionaries.
I'm not arguing that the WG are nice guys and even though I'd differentiate between WG and marines, I deem Akainu fully capable of nuking a rebelling island, especially when f.e. Dragon is on it.
But he hasn't yet and even if the WG foremost killed the scholars because they fear what's written in the Phoneglyphs like Clover (who really asked for the buster call btw, just rewatched it) suggested, the weapons of mass destruction alone are a valid enough reason to justify the purge.
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He also destroyed the ship of people that the world government were literally allowing to leave the island during their invasion because they were civilians who were not even scholars. Coby was also not deserting. He was in fact imploring the Marines to stop and take care of their wounded instead of just chasing more pirates down in what was essentially a battle blood lust. They had already won by that point as both Ace and Whitebeard were dead and the pirates in full retreat.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions and he most certainly is going there if there is hell in the OP universe.
The scene with Clover talking to the Elders pretty much confirmed that they were killed to silence them about the ancient kingdom and how the WG was formed. Not over any real concern over the weapons.
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EPT
