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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
Netherlands6192 Posts
On May 13 2013 01:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 00:08 duoform wrote:On May 12 2013 23:45 zbedlam wrote:On May 12 2013 23:09 Neeh wrote:
The witch was just getting her revenge. It's hard to draw the line between good and evil in this series, most of the characters have legit reasons for doing what they're doing. The Dothraki raped and murdered people for no reason. In fact I don't know how they survived this long since they seemed to rape and kill every source of food they come across aside from horses. Joffrey also kills for no reason. These are the only two "evil" people/factions I have seen in this show so far. The Dothraki raped and murdered because that's their culture and that's how they lived. In the world they live in, like in Westeros, you either live to play the game or die being humble and honest like Ned. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Stark guy in the series but being honest, loyal, etc in a fantasy world like Game of Thrones will lead you nowhere. Joffrey however should die in the most painful way ever. I've discussed this before, I think Robb will not win this war but I seriously hope to see Robb or Jon chopping Joffrey's head in front of Cersei. That would be a freaking good way of ending Season 3  Robb is a dead man. I haven't read the books, and I can predict he won't survive more than a few episodes. Narrative structure is crystal clear, he is losing the war and he will get killed. He is useless for the narrative anyway from now since there is no way on earth he wins after the last few episodes, and the crown of the North needs to be at stake in King's Landing for the story to be more interesting. I can see a Littlefinger or someone like that assassinating him, to be honest. As for Joffrey, I guess he will get out when the rage of audience has reached its peak. All depends how the rivalry between the Tyrell and the Lannister goes, but one of the two families will probably need to get rid of him. Or, I could imagine Jamie getting his second king's kill for noble reasons since apparently he is on a disappointingly cliché redemption path... Let's see.
But you have to admit, Robb would make a really great King. Far more level headed and just than either Stannis or Joffrey.
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Rickon predicted in season 1 (just before rob left for war) that rob and cat won't come back (episode 8 i think?)
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United States43973 Posts
How exactly is Robb going to be defeated? Who is going to provide the men for this. Yeah, the Lannisters fucked up the riverlands until Robb got there but the Tullys didn't suffer any major defeats, just had their fields burned. Since then we have seen the army of the Stormlands be destroyed by a combination of the Tyrell's and Lannisters but the Tyrells were only there because Stannis killed Renly and they wanted to make a grab for the throne. They have no issue with Robb, they were on board with the independent north plan back when Renly was still alive. The Reach and Dorne are still unaccounted for but the Reach is controlled by Robb's aunt and his cousin.
Basically the only people actually invested in fighting Robb are the Lannisters who he's currently 3-0 up against and has the support of the Riverlands against. If he made a move on King's Landing then the Tyrells would intervene to protect their claim on the throne but Robb knows that and also knows that the Tyrells have absolutely no desire to invade the north. Meanwhile if Robb goes west with the forces of the Riverlands and the North against the Lannisters I imagine the Tyrells would be quite happy. They might eventually bail out Tywin for a lot of gold but between them they control the throne and what is bad for one is good for the other.
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On May 13 2013 01:26 KwarK wrote:
How exactly is Robb going to be defeated? Who is going to provide the men for this. Yeah, the Lannisters fucked up the riverlands until Robb got there but the Tullys didn't suffer any major defeats, just had their fields burned. Since then we have seen the army of the Stormlands be destroyed by a combination of the Tyrell's and Lannisters but the Tyrells were only there because Stannis killed Renly and they wanted to make a grab for the throne. They have no issue with Robb, they were on board with the independent north plan back when Renly was still alive. The Reach and Dorne are still unaccounted for but the Reach is controlled by Robb's aunt and his cousin.
Basically the only people actually invested in fighting Robb are the Lannisters who he's currently 3-0 up against and has the support of the Riverlands against. If he made a move on King's Landing then the Tyrells would intervene to protect their claim on the throne but Robb knows that and also knows that the Tyrells have absolutely no desire to invade the north. Meanwhile if Robb goes west with the forces of the Riverlands and the North against the Lannisters I imagine the Tyrells would be quite happy. They might eventually bail out Tywin for a lot of gold but between them they control the throne and what is bad for one is good for the other.
It's really simple when you think about it. The clues are there. I haven't read the books, so I don't know if they give the same clues, but the show really goofed I think. They basically spell it out for us . I hope because its so obvious the opposite will happen, Robb is my favorite character atm.. How can they end 3 seasons with stark losses/lannister victories? Fuark I hope I'm wrong. This shit has been haunting me.
Edit: Now that I think of it, what is the whole purpose of the whole Jon Snow arc if he won't be actively participating in the main story. The purpose of Dany's arc is clear; she will be fighting for the throne.. She's a powerful character who no one acknowledges. This makes the story more interesting. But Jon Snow? What is he doing, really... Not like he'll be staying at the Night's watch anymore (what the hell happened there anyway, white walkers killed a few and passed the wall or what? why are there 700 left, shouldn't they all have been killed?).
Robb's defeat would make him want revenge I guess... What else is there to do with this character?
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I'm a bit worried about this Frey/Edmure wedding that's coming up, how do we know this old frey dude doesn't still hold a grudge with Rob for marrying Talisa? I hope Rob takes his army with him when he goes to attend the wedding, that way there won't be any trouble.
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On May 13 2013 01:39 Venom2 wrote:
I'm a bit worried about this Frey/Edmure wedding that's coming up, how do we know this old frey dude doesn't still hold a grudge with Rob for marrying Talisa? I hope Rob takes his army with him when he goes to attend the wedding, that way there won't be any trouble.
Doesn't he have his own "King's guard" or whatever they call it. It's not like he'll run in there blindfolded, he'd see how many people would be there. IDK..
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On May 13 2013 01:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 00:08 duoform wrote:On May 12 2013 23:45 zbedlam wrote:On May 12 2013 23:09 Neeh wrote:
The witch was just getting her revenge. It's hard to draw the line between good and evil in this series, most of the characters have legit reasons for doing what they're doing. The Dothraki raped and murdered people for no reason. In fact I don't know how they survived this long since they seemed to rape and kill every source of food they come across aside from horses. Joffrey also kills for no reason. These are the only two "evil" people/factions I have seen in this show so far. The Dothraki raped and murdered because that's their culture and that's how they lived. In the world they live in, like in Westeros, you either live to play the game or die being humble and honest like Ned. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Stark guy in the series but being honest, loyal, etc in a fantasy world like Game of Thrones will lead you nowhere. Joffrey however should die in the most painful way ever. I've discussed this before, I think Robb will not win this war but I seriously hope to see Robb or Jon chopping Joffrey's head in front of Cersei. That would be a freaking good way of ending Season 3 Robb is a dead man. I haven't read the books, and I can predict he won't survive more than a few episodes. Narrative structure is crystal clear, he is losing the war and he will get killed. He is useless for the narrative anyway from now since there is no way on earth he wins after the last few episodes, and the crown of the North needs to be at stake in King's Landing for the story to be more interesting. I can see a Littlefinger or someone like that assassinating him, to be honest. As for Joffrey, I guess he will get out when the rage of audience has reached its peak. All depends how the rivalry between the Tyrell and the Lannister goes, but one of the two families will probably need to get rid of him. Or, I could imagine Jamie getting his second king's kill for noble reasons since apparently he is on a disappointingly cliché redemption path... Let's see. lol. You do know that joffrey is jamie's son? How is anyone redeeming themselves by killing their own son?
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On May 13 2013 01:42 ridic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 01:39 Venom2 wrote:
I'm a bit worried about this Frey/Edmure wedding that's coming up, how do we know this old frey dude doesn't still hold a grudge with Rob for marrying Talisa? I hope Rob takes his army with him when he goes to attend the wedding, that way there won't be any trouble. Doesn't he have his own "King's guard" or whatever they call it. It's not like he'll run in there blindfolded, he'd see how many people would be there. IDK..
Does he? I mean obviously he has some bodyguards, but I didn't know he had his own King's guard?
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On May 13 2013 01:45 Venom2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 01:42 ridic wrote:On May 13 2013 01:39 Venom2 wrote:
I'm a bit worried about this Frey/Edmure wedding that's coming up, how do we know this old frey dude doesn't still hold a grudge with Rob for marrying Talisa? I hope Rob takes his army with him when he goes to attend the wedding, that way there won't be any trouble. Doesn't he have his own "King's guard" or whatever they call it. It's not like he'll run in there blindfolded, he'd see how many people would be there. IDK.. Does he? I mean obviously he has some bodyguards, but I didn't know he had his own King's guard?
I have no idea. Point is he has bodyguards though.
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Netherlands6192 Posts
On May 13 2013 01:45 Venom2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 01:42 ridic wrote:On May 13 2013 01:39 Venom2 wrote:
I'm a bit worried about this Frey/Edmure wedding that's coming up, how do we know this old frey dude doesn't still hold a grudge with Rob for marrying Talisa? I hope Rob takes his army with him when he goes to attend the wedding, that way there won't be any trouble. Doesn't he have his own "King's guard" or whatever they call it. It's not like he'll run in there blindfolded, he'd see how many people would be there. IDK.. Does he? I mean obviously he has some bodyguards, but I didn't know he had his own King's guard?
He doesn't really? Renly and Joffrey seem to be the only kings with a kings guard. Stannis and Robb have a sort of entourage of faithful fighters.
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On May 13 2013 01:39 Venom2 wrote:
I'm a bit worried about this Frey/Edmure wedding that's coming up, how do we know this old frey dude doesn't still hold a grudge with Rob for marrying Talisa? I hope Rob takes his army with him when he goes to attend the wedding, that way there won't be any trouble.
This was exactly my thoughts when we discussed Robb's war a week or two ago in this thread also.
The moment Robb chopped Karstark's head he lost the war simply because he lost way too many mans and without a new army or the Karstarks he can't fight the Lannisters and the Tyrells at the same time if Robb decides to go for Kingslanding. NOW is where the all the fuzz begins. Robb needs a new army and the only person in Westeros who has it are the Freys and imo Walder Frey is definitely not happy with Robb knowing he toyed with him and decided to marry another girl who wasn't his daughter. To add more conspiracy to it, Robb's army is now way smaller and everyone knows he can't win the war. What if Walder Frey decides to betray the North and sell Robb to the Lannisters?
Although, we don't know how many mans the Freys have! If Walder Frey decides to not help Robb I think Robb would easily attack The Twins and take it by himself but probably would loss even more man = more opportunities for the Lannisters.
I don't know man, the series give us plenty of hints Robb will lose this war but I think the Wildlings will come with Jon and eventually help the North for whatever reason..
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United States43973 Posts
On May 13 2013 01:47 DragonLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 01:45 Venom2 wrote:On May 13 2013 01:42 ridic wrote:On May 13 2013 01:39 Venom2 wrote:
I'm a bit worried about this Frey/Edmure wedding that's coming up, how do we know this old frey dude doesn't still hold a grudge with Rob for marrying Talisa? I hope Rob takes his army with him when he goes to attend the wedding, that way there won't be any trouble. Doesn't he have his own "King's guard" or whatever they call it. It's not like he'll run in there blindfolded, he'd see how many people would be there. IDK.. Does he? I mean obviously he has some bodyguards, but I didn't know he had his own King's guard? He doesn't really? Renly and Joffrey seem to be the only kings with a kings guard. Stannis and Robb have a sort of entourage of faithful fighters.
He has a fucking massive wolf that eats people next to him all the time.
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so since predictions are very popular at the moment im interested in what type of viewer you are. I know some people IRL that are genuinely good at predicting stuff and spotting subtle hints in tv shows. Im a bit biased because im a book reader but lets see how this turns out.
Poll: About Hints & Predictions, What type are you?I've read the books and like to pretend i didnt so i can post spoilers. (17) 30% I've read the books but i dont find the hints in the show too obvious. (13) 23% Im quite good at spotting hints but i rarely predict correctly. (6) 11% Im often suprised about plot twists, i dont see them coming. (6) 11% I've read the books and hints seem very obvious to me. (6) 11% I rewatch episodes multiple times so im bound to find hints eventually. (5) 9% Im quite good at spotting hints and my predictions are usually correct. (4) 7% 57 total votes Your vote: About Hints & Predictions, What type are you? (Vote): Im quite good at spotting hints and my predictions are usually correct.
(Vote): Im quite good at spotting hints but i rarely predict correctly.
(Vote): Im often suprised about plot twists, i dont see them coming.
(Vote): I rewatch episodes multiple times so im bound to find hints eventually.
(Vote): I've read the books and hints seem very obvious to me.
(Vote): I've read the books but i dont find the hints in the show too obvious.
(Vote): I've read the books and like to pretend i didnt so i can post spoilers.
EDIT: The poll is written in first person on purpose. You should only vote for yourself and not for what you think other people are. I fear the poll is not meaningful otherwise.
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Where's the option "People post the hints, which lead to obvious predictions"
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Netherlands6192 Posts
I'm not sure if I am just really unobservant but a lot of the stuff in there didn't seem very obvious to me. If I go back and watch it a few more times I can pick up on the more subtle things because I am expecting them or looking for a clue, but I just don't really notice otherwise.
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On May 13 2013 02:28 ridic wrote:
Where's the option "People post the hints, which lead to obvious predictions"
i guess that would fall under the category "I rewatch episodes multiple times so im bound to find hints eventually.", just instead of rewatching youre reading all about the episode to find the hints.
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If you think the hints aren't there for non book readers like myself you should watch and read more in general... things like Robb's war isn't like Jaime losing a freaking hand which I didn't see it coming. Ever.
You don't even need to rewatch episodes to know that the North isn't doing well. Even Robb's character says so. Plenty of times actually!
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On May 13 2013 01:43 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 01:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 13 2013 00:08 duoform wrote:On May 12 2013 23:45 zbedlam wrote:On May 12 2013 23:09 Neeh wrote:
The witch was just getting her revenge. It's hard to draw the line between good and evil in this series, most of the characters have legit reasons for doing what they're doing. The Dothraki raped and murdered people for no reason. In fact I don't know how they survived this long since they seemed to rape and kill every source of food they come across aside from horses. Joffrey also kills for no reason. These are the only two "evil" people/factions I have seen in this show so far. The Dothraki raped and murdered because that's their culture and that's how they lived. In the world they live in, like in Westeros, you either live to play the game or die being humble and honest like Ned. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Stark guy in the series but being honest, loyal, etc in a fantasy world like Game of Thrones will lead you nowhere. Joffrey however should die in the most painful way ever. I've discussed this before, I think Robb will not win this war but I seriously hope to see Robb or Jon chopping Joffrey's head in front of Cersei. That would be a freaking good way of ending Season 3 Robb is a dead man. I haven't read the books, and I can predict he won't survive more than a few episodes. Narrative structure is crystal clear, he is losing the war and he will get killed. He is useless for the narrative anyway from now since there is no way on earth he wins after the last few episodes, and the crown of the North needs to be at stake in King's Landing for the story to be more interesting. I can see a Littlefinger or someone like that assassinating him, to be honest. As for Joffrey, I guess he will get out when the rage of audience has reached its peak. All depends how the rivalry between the Tyrell and the Lannister goes, but one of the two families will probably need to get rid of him. Or, I could imagine Jamie getting his second king's kill for noble reasons since apparently he is on a disappointingly cliché redemption path... Let's see. lol. You do know that joffrey is jamie's son? How is anyone redeeming themselves by killing their own son?
when your son is Joffrey, you have every reason to kill him for the good of mankind.
As for evil characters, don't forget The Mountain. Rapin', Pillagin' and the evil brother of The Hound. He's pretty high up there in the 'evil' heiharcy.
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About this whole good/evil character thing:
Of course the world isn't divided into good/evil characters. Only in the silliest and most foolish worldviews is the world easily and neatly divided into such categories. Mainstream monotheist religions, various atheist/agnostic ideologies, and every polytheist setup I've ever encountered agrees on this. You'll occasionally run into a fanatic fundamentalism monotheist or angry humanist who will argue that there are mostly good people but a handful of bad (humanists tend to use the word "stupid") people mess it all up.
Now that said, there are good and bad worldveiws. And there are utilitarian ethics (Varys, Jorah) and there are principled ethics, with a variety of bases for principled ethics: fillial (see Lannisters), moral (see Dany on slavery), legal/oath-based (see Barristan, to some extent Stannis).
There are morally stronger people (Ned, Robb) and morally weaker people (Theon, Jorah) and those who don't particularly try for any kind of morality (Littlefinger, Bronn).
Real people are complicated, and any work of literature of any medium that tries to address realistic interactions has to deal with it.
But people have moral trajectories, because actions can be good for evil, destructive of the soul or constructive of the soul. Arya is flirting with darkness. Theon fell to it entirely, and now wishes to go back (the wishing is itself a moral act). Bronn tries to be amoral, but occasionally shows himself to have some measure of compassion.
And of course everyone has circumstances that make it easier or harder for them to make moral decisions. But it is possible to start in the worst circumstances for being moral and slowly move towards being kinder. Drogo's decision to back Dany's mercy for her claimed women was a very brave thing for a man brought up in his culture to do. Not because of physical danger, but because of the danger to his reputation.
So let us not talk to good or evil people but rather of worldviews, moral setups, good/evil/mixed actions, and moral trajectories.
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On May 13 2013 01:15 DragonLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 01:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 13 2013 00:08 duoform wrote:On May 12 2013 23:45 zbedlam wrote:On May 12 2013 23:09 Neeh wrote:
The witch was just getting her revenge. It's hard to draw the line between good and evil in this series, most of the characters have legit reasons for doing what they're doing. The Dothraki raped and murdered people for no reason. In fact I don't know how they survived this long since they seemed to rape and kill every source of food they come across aside from horses. Joffrey also kills for no reason. These are the only two "evil" people/factions I have seen in this show so far. The Dothraki raped and murdered because that's their culture and that's how they lived. In the world they live in, like in Westeros, you either live to play the game or die being humble and honest like Ned. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Stark guy in the series but being honest, loyal, etc in a fantasy world like Game of Thrones will lead you nowhere. Joffrey however should die in the most painful way ever. I've discussed this before, I think Robb will not win this war but I seriously hope to see Robb or Jon chopping Joffrey's head in front of Cersei. That would be a freaking good way of ending Season 3 Robb is a dead man. I haven't read the books, and I can predict he won't survive more than a few episodes. Narrative structure is crystal clear, he is losing the war and he will get killed. He is useless for the narrative anyway from now since there is no way on earth he wins after the last few episodes, and the crown of the North needs to be at stake in King's Landing for the story to be more interesting. I can see a Littlefinger or someone like that assassinating him, to be honest. As for Joffrey, I guess he will get out when the rage of audience has reached its peak. All depends how the rivalry between the Tyrell and the Lannister goes, but one of the two families will probably need to get rid of him. Or, I could imagine Jamie getting his second king's kill for noble reasons since apparently he is on a disappointingly cliché redemption path... Let's see. But you have to admit, Robb would make a really great King. Far more level headed and just than either Stannis or Joffrey. Hardly. Hes a naive fool. I think Stannis would be a great king, except for the Red Priestesses negative influence, causing him to compromise his principles and honour constantly.
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EPT
