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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 29 2017 23:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 23:29 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2017 23:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 29 2017 23:21 Plansix wrote:
Remember that all vows, promises and obligations are based on the world power structure remaining intact. John's vow was based on the concept that the Wall would receive support from the 7 Kingdoms in its times of need. They have barely gotten that and shit is only getting worse. Once the undead stated marching at the wall and his brothers killed him, only to have him come back, all bets were off. Sure that's the explanation behind the motivation. Everybody can understand this. But just talking about if he is a deserter or not i think it is weird to be that specific with the phrasing when it's not worded to be very specific. He is a deserter in my eyes, 100% When the leadership promotes you to be the Master of the watch, then murders you because of your decision making, I'm not sure you are required to stay on. More importantly, I don't think the Watch is going to enforce that rule. I think it will be interesting if it is brought up by other political groups that think John isn't the legitimate king because he left it watch. That is the exact type of political reasoning I would expect from the show. I mean he could (and did) hang the people who were behind that. At that point it's surely motivation to be frustrated with the situation (and more, coming back from the dead is kinda huge; wasted potential in the show imo) but he still could have done his duty he swore to do. It's not that i don't understand his motivation, but i still think he basically deserted even if it's with good reasons. And yeah i would expected it to be a topic as well, it wasn't though iirc.
Well, for all that matters, I'm sure Jon considers himself a deserter as well. When he left Castle Black, his reasoning was that he was stabbed in the back, not that he'd died and his vow was over.
But you also have to consider that in the last several years, we've had kinslaying, kingslaying, breach of guest right, all committed by the ruling houses of Westeros. At the end of the day, the only oaths that matter are the ones that relevant parties uphold. The North is calling Jon their king, so everything else is irrelevant.
Same for the iron throne. Only thing that matters is if the rest of Westeros recognizes the one sitting on it.
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On May 30 2017 00:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 23:48 opisska wrote:On May 29 2017 23:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 29 2017 23:37 opisska wrote:
If you put enough red priests as medics into your army, does it become unbeatable without splash damage, for example dragons? Hard to say, i think it's not as consistent as medics though  But they restore the whole hp at once and we don't even know if the energy is limited. I would definitely love Jon to die at least once more. We don't really know much about it, but i think it's not really a common thing :D
U've got to be hight enough level, spell requires full mana and has 50% chance of success, 1 month c/d
Make it balanced!
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On May 30 2017 01:11 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 23:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 29 2017 23:29 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2017 23:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 29 2017 23:21 Plansix wrote:
Remember that all vows, promises and obligations are based on the world power structure remaining intact. John's vow was based on the concept that the Wall would receive support from the 7 Kingdoms in its times of need. They have barely gotten that and shit is only getting worse. Once the undead stated marching at the wall and his brothers killed him, only to have him come back, all bets were off. Sure that's the explanation behind the motivation. Everybody can understand this. But just talking about if he is a deserter or not i think it is weird to be that specific with the phrasing when it's not worded to be very specific. He is a deserter in my eyes, 100% When the leadership promotes you to be the Master of the watch, then murders you because of your decision making, I'm not sure you are required to stay on. More importantly, I don't think the Watch is going to enforce that rule. I think it will be interesting if it is brought up by other political groups that think John isn't the legitimate king because he left it watch. That is the exact type of political reasoning I would expect from the show. I mean he could (and did) hang the people who were behind that. At that point it's surely motivation to be frustrated with the situation (and more, coming back from the dead is kinda huge; wasted potential in the show imo) but he still could have done his duty he swore to do. It's not that i don't understand his motivation, but i still think he basically deserted even if it's with good reasons. And yeah i would expected it to be a topic as well, it wasn't though iirc. Well, for all that matters, I'm sure Jon considers himself a deserter as well. When he left Castle Black, his reasoning was that he was stabbed in the back, not that he'd died and his vow was over. But you also have to consider that in the last several years, we've had kinslaying, kingslaying, breach of guest right, all committed by the ruling houses of Westeros. At the end of the day, the only oaths that matter are the ones that relevant parties uphold. The North is calling Jon their king, so everything else is irrelevant. Same for the iron throne. Only thing that matters is if the rest of Westeros recognizes the one sitting on it.
Oh yeah for sure. Just a general thought, i think he deserted and i would have done the same in his case.
"Power resides where men believe it resides" is a basic theme in GoT, specific rules will be broken and nobody will care.
On May 30 2017 01:14 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2017 00:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 29 2017 23:48 opisska wrote:On May 29 2017 23:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 29 2017 23:37 opisska wrote:
If you put enough red priests as medics into your army, does it become unbeatable without splash damage, for example dragons? Hard to say, i think it's not as consistent as medics though But they restore the whole hp at once and we don't even know if the energy is limited. I would definitely love Jon to die at least once more. We don't really know much about it, but i think it's not really a common thing :D U've got to be hight enough level, spell requires full mana and has 50% chance of success, 1 month c/d Make it balanced!
Haha i mean we really don't know much about it. In universe magic isn't very specifically rule based, it's more of a "mystery" magic system
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I dont see Jon as a deserter, though I understand why some would. At the end it doesnt really matter if he is or isnt a deserter. Who is he going to lead, the remaining 50 or so brothers against the undead army? Cmon ... The Night's Watch is all but dead, it can no longer carry its basic function with such a small number of people. Besides, Jon might have left, but its obvious that his main goal is to stop the others by uniting the North and possibly the whole Realm, so in essence he is doing the Realm and The Night's Watch a bigger service by "deserting".
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On May 30 2017 05:42 FreakyDroid wrote:
I dont see Jon as a deserter, though I understand why some would. At the end it doesnt really matter if he is or isnt a deserter. Who is he going to lead, the remaining 50 or so brothers against the undead army? Cmon ... The Night's Watch is all but dead, it can no longer carry its basic function with such a small number of people. Besides, Jon might have left, but its obvious that his main goal is to stop the others by uniting the North and possibly the whole Realm, so in essence he is doing the Realm and The Night's Watch a bigger service by "deserting".
I mean, Jaime Lannister is a Kingslayer. He did it for all of the right reasons, but he's still a Kingslayer.
Jon's a deserter because he deserted. Politically it may not amount to much, except if other Night's Watch members decide to desert as well (kind of hypocritical for the liege lord of the North to enforce the law he broke), but it doesn't change what he did. Especially as a member of house Stark.
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The night's watch as an entity is not likely to exist long anyway. There are no more wildlinngs to fend off and the rest of the threat will be sorted out one way or the other and there there is really no reason to watch the wall anymore, provided that there will even be a wall.
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On May 30 2017 05:53 opisska wrote:
The night's watch as an entity is not likely to exist long anyway. There are no more wildlinngs to fend off and the rest of the threat will be sorted out one way or the other and there there is really no reason to watch the wall anymore, provided that there will even be a wall.
I don't know if this was mentioned in the tv series, but the wall was made to fend off the others primarily, so the end of the wildling threat doesn't really mean the end of the night's watch. That would require destroying all the others (if they only reproduce through the freaky baby ritual), including any ones that stayed behind deep beyond the wall.
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On May 30 2017 05:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I mean, Jaime Lannister is a Kingslayer. He did it for all of the right reasons, but he's still a Kingslayer.
Jon's a deserter because he deserted. Politically it may not amount to much, except if other Night's Watch members decide to desert as well (kind of hypocritical for the liege lord of the North to enforce the law he broke), but it doesn't change what he did. Especially as a member of house Stark.
That's cool, I just gave my opinion because I felt that the argument if he is or isnt a 'deserter' was taken a bit out of context without taking in consideration that state of The Night's Watch when he 'deserted' it. Perhaps he is technically a deserter, but did he really desert the fight and everything the Night's Watch stands for? Obviously not since his main goal is to stop the others and he is going to do a lot more for The Night's Watch as King in the North than as Lord Commander.
On May 30 2017 05:53 opisska wrote:
The night's watch as an entity is not likely to exist long anyway. There are no more wildlinngs to fend off and the rest of the threat will be sorted out one way or the other and there there is really no reason to watch the wall anymore, provided that there will even be a wall.
Yeah, I think so too.
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On May 30 2017 06:34 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2017 05:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I mean, Jaime Lannister is a Kingslayer. He did it for all of the right reasons, but he's still a Kingslayer.
Jon's a deserter because he deserted. Politically it may not amount to much, except if other Night's Watch members decide to desert as well (kind of hypocritical for the liege lord of the North to enforce the law he broke), but it doesn't change what he did. Especially as a member of house Stark. That's cool, I just gave my opinion because I felt that the argument if he is or isnt a 'deserter' was taken a bit out of context without taking in consideration that state of The Night's Watch when he 'deserted' it. Perhaps he is technically a deserter, but did he really desert the fight and everything the Night's Watch stands for? Obviously not since his main goal is to stop the others and he is going to do a lot more for The Night's Watch as King in the North than as Lord Commander.
Well, I don't think anyone was really arguing on the front of right and wrong.
But Game of Thrones (and most medieval settings, really) has some sacrosanct views of honour and oaths that are very much black and white, even if the morality around them is not.
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I wasnt really arguing if it was right or wrong, that's kind of irrelevant imo. All Im saying is that there is nothing to desert, the NW is dead and incapable of doing its duty, by leaving he is actually going to do alot more for it than staying.
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I don't get how can you consider Jon as a deserter? He died for nights watch, for everything he thought was right, so his oath is over.
Well technicly we can call him this way for joining wildings earlier but even then it was an order by Kuoren.
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The argument is that the oath is worded "until death" (or whatever) because it was completely inconceivable that someone could actually come back from the dead, and that "until the end of his days" was what it meant to mean.
I personally didn't like that everyone (especially the northern lords) easily believes and makes no big deal that Jon has come back from the dead, so in my head this argument would be irrelevant (because he would be a deserter for never having died).
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France7248 Posts
He was even killed by the Night's Watch, surely he can be done with them without being called a deserter, right?
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On May 30 2017 21:04 Yhamm wrote:
He was even killed by the Night's Watch, surely he can be done with them without being called a deserter, right?
Why would he care if they call him a deserter when he'll soon be sitting on the throne with Dany by his side?
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Really, when it comes to matters of oath and honour, the question is really "what would Ned Stark or Barristan Selmy say?"
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"My neck hurts" - Ned Stark
edit:
I think everyone has biger problems. The time to blindly follow some code or honor is over.
The common folk probably think what they allways think: "Those rich bastards allways do what they want; I hope they leave me alone."
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United States44203 Posts
common people of Westeros: "I don't know much about the Night's Watch but what I do know is that it's a job you don't get to leave unless you desert and you're here after leaving sooo...."
Jon: "Yeah but there's this loophole where you're there for life but once you die you're in the clear and I died and then came back so I'm good and actually not a deserter."
common people of Westeros: "Like your heart stopped and then someone did CPR and you came back so you were technically dead for a few seconds?"
Jon: "Nah, I was dead for days but then a magic fire lady's god brought me back to life because I was the chosen one."
common people of Westeros: "Sounds plausible. People come back to life all the time. He definitely didn't just run away and make that up afterwards."
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Where does anyone who has ever come anywhere close to the world of this story take the idea that somebody would ask the common people of Westeros for their opinions about ... anything? Anyone who would be in position to question Jon, would be in position to be properly briefed on the facts, or swiftly disposed of.
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Game of thrones is a game of power. John snow has the north with him so the fact he's an ex-night's watch means nothing. If he was a random dude that died and ressurected then it would be considered deserting.
In short: he's the king of the north, forget about everything.
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EPT
