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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
Jon's parents:
don't click if you haven't read the books!
+ Show Spoiler [seriously don't click if you hav…] +While the books present the obvious explanation of Ned + Wylla -> Jon, it is my belief that this is a red herring. First, let's examine Ned character. He is repeatedly described by characters throughout the books as honorable to a fault, even his enemies (ex. Jorah Mormont, with Dany, expounding on "bloody honorable Ned Stark"). Jon is younger than Robb, meaning he was conceived post-marriage of Ned and Cat. For me, this is a significant strike against Eddard as Jon's father. Ned's actions and recollection in GOT also add credence to R+L=J (Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon) - he doesn't consider Jon when thinking about how he will protect his children (GOT:406), and yet while in the black cells, he thinks a lot about how talking to Jon one last time and considers writing him a letter but eventually decides against it, knowing it will be read by Varys. Dying in childbirth also gives a reason for Lyanna's death - I find it extremely hard to believe that Arthur Dayne or another Kguard killed her, or that she took her own life, but only several months after Rhaegar died. The fever mentioned could be equal parts complication and misdirection by GRRM. Plausible reasons for pretending Jon is his son? The promise to Lyanna, as well as Robert's clearly fanatical hatred of anything Targaryen. + Show Spoiler [Clash of Kings] +A prominent symbol in the series is the winter (blue) rose - it is present in Ygritte's story about Bael the Bard and the "stolen princess of Winterfell", and also given to Lyanna by Rhaegar during the Harrenhall tournament as queen of love and beauty or w/e. During Dany's visions in the House of the Undying in Qarth, she sees at one point "a blue rose in the wall". This is commonly accepted to be Jon - and would further cement Jon's ties to Lyanna. + Show Spoiler [whole series] +
Jon is also a mini-Mary Sue, and is by the end of SoS Lord commander of the Wall - clearly he is being marked out prominently by GRRM for the confrontation against "the great Other". The on-screen time given to his training is rivaled only by Jaime post-hand - another important character. As well, the dragon must have "three heads" - Jon could very well be one of those heads, and although this is just a crazy theory here by me, so is Tyrion - which would make their (J+T's) friendship from book 1 important.
Apologies if I mixed up any facts - a good analysis and also already posted upthread: ***warning spoilers****
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/
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Russian Federation1401 Posts
On May 16 2011 09:07 Vykenos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 08:39 Dystisis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't understand why people assume Lyanna Stark is the mother of Jon, and that Eddard is not the father. Reading through the theories for why this is assumed, no good reason is given. As for what is in the books, Eddard is always described as the father, and he is not the sort of character that lies at every chance.
However, many people seem to be persuaded otherwise. I suppose I'm missing something. In reply to questions about Jon's parents: + Show Spoiler +Everything said to date in the books has been from the words of people who do not know for sure. The book itself has not narrated anything else other then labeling Jon what he thinks he is. the only person who has been identified that knows for sure is Ned.
About Jon's parents, all 4 books
+ Show Spoiler + If Rhaegar + Lyanna is true, the only person alive who can confirm it is Howland Reed, Ned's friend and survivor of the battle against Arthur Dayne and Co. who were guarding the royal prince. Remember, the Kingsguard does not flee.
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loras and renly scene wasnt in the book also might have been a couple extra seconds of sucking noises
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I thought renly was supposed tyo be super fit and and look nearly exactly like robert did in his prime. Also he's gay x.c I don't quite remember that from the books
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Interesting episode.
Arya is probably now my favorite character even over Tyrion.
Lysa was crazy, but that portrays her well. Still, that was interesting
Knight of the Flowers was dissapointing. Him+Renly scene is an interesting twist, it's never directly stated in the books, but it's inferred that they had a relationship.
I'm liking Littlefinger more. Can't say the same for Varys, but I never really thought I'd like him.
The fighting scenes might seem kind of weak, but thats probably because people expect a LoTResque clash, when it's really pretty realistic.
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On May 16 2011 10:59 Dacendoran wrote:
I thought renly was supposed tyo be super fit and and look nearly exactly like robert did in his prime. Also he's gay x.c I don't quite remember that from the books
I was thinking that too... I'll admit its been a while since I've read the books but was it ever mentioned either Renly or Loras were gay?
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No but it's heavily implied. + Show Spoiler +remember the rainbow guard?
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On May 16 2011 11:09 Strayline wrote:No but it's heavily implied. + Show Spoiler +remember the rainbow guard? But yeah you could probably read everything and not pick up on it.
I do but I never took it to mean anything other than Renly had a flair for the flamboyance (when I say it like that it definitely sounds gay), since it was always just implied he focused on his appearance/clothes more than anything. I can see the implication from his side but not Loras'.
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On May 16 2011 09:59 SF-Fork wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 09:07 Vykenos wrote:On May 16 2011 08:39 Dystisis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't understand why people assume Lyanna Stark is the mother of Jon, and that Eddard is not the father. Reading through the theories for why this is assumed, no good reason is given. As for what is in the books, Eddard is always described as the father, and he is not the sort of character that lies at every chance.
However, many people seem to be persuaded otherwise. I suppose I'm missing something. In reply to questions about Jon's parents: + Show Spoiler +Everything said to date in the books has been from the words of people who do not know for sure. The book itself has not narrated anything else other then labeling Jon what he thinks he is. the only person who has been identified that knows for sure is Ned. About Jon's parents, all 4 books + Show Spoiler + If Rhaegar + Lyanna is true, the only person alive who can confirm it is Howland Reed, Ned's friend and survivor of the battle against Arthur Dayne and Co. who were guarding the royal prince. Remember, the Kingsguard does not flee.
+ Show Spoiler +Well... There are also any number of people who also *might* know somehow. I mean Barristan might know as he was old school kingsguard. Some random dudes in the south (like Doran Martell for example) might somehow know as that's where Rhegar sent Lyanna. Or Benjen Stark if he is alive could possibly know. I could have bought Maesters Luen or Aemon knowing somehow but they are dead. But I agree Howland Reed was there at the Tower of Joy so he is probably the best bet (or indirectly through his kids.)
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knight of flower makes it a little more clear
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On May 16 2011 11:14 Xeteh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 11:09 Strayline wrote:No but it's heavily implied. + Show Spoiler +remember the rainbow guard? But yeah you could probably read everything and not pick up on it. I do but I never took it to mean anything other than Renly had a flair for the flamboyance (when I say it like that it definitely sounds gay), since it was always just implied he focused on his appearance/clothes more than anything. I can see the implication from his side but not Loras'.
+ Show Spoiler +Loras is also described as going mad and killing a lot of people to avenge Renly. As I said, you could read everything and not get it. I don't think there is actually any "doubt" when you look at everything without like 300 pages between each reference 
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lol@lady stark's sister o_o holy fuck
things really got heavy this episode. one week is long
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On May 16 2011 11:23 Strayline wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 11:14 Xeteh wrote:On May 16 2011 11:09 Strayline wrote:No but it's heavily implied. + Show Spoiler +remember the rainbow guard? But yeah you could probably read everything and not pick up on it. I do but I never took it to mean anything other than Renly had a flair for the flamboyance (when I say it like that it definitely sounds gay), since it was always just implied he focused on his appearance/clothes more than anything. I can see the implication from his side but not Loras'. + Show Spoiler +Loras is also described as going mad and killing a lot of people to avenge Renly. As I said, you could read everything and not get it. I don't think there is actually any "doubt" when you look at everything without like 300 pages between each reference
+ Show Spoiler +Jaime also makes a few offhand remarks insinuating that Loras was Renly's lover.
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On May 16 2011 11:23 Strayline wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 11:14 Xeteh wrote:On May 16 2011 11:09 Strayline wrote:No but it's heavily implied. + Show Spoiler +remember the rainbow guard? But yeah you could probably read everything and not pick up on it. I do but I never took it to mean anything other than Renly had a flair for the flamboyance (when I say it like that it definitely sounds gay), since it was always just implied he focused on his appearance/clothes more than anything. I can see the implication from his side but not Loras'. + Show Spoiler +Loras is also described as going mad and killing a lot of people to avenge Renly. As I said, you could read everything and not get it. I don't think there is actually any "doubt" when you look at everything without like 300 pages between each reference
Book 2 spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Another good reference is at the party/tourney where Catelyn first meets them, Renly is described as giving Loras a lot more attention than his sister Margaery, who he just wed.
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On May 16 2011 11:29 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 11:23 Strayline wrote:On May 16 2011 11:14 Xeteh wrote:On May 16 2011 11:09 Strayline wrote:No but it's heavily implied. + Show Spoiler +remember the rainbow guard? But yeah you could probably read everything and not pick up on it. I do but I never took it to mean anything other than Renly had a flair for the flamboyance (when I say it like that it definitely sounds gay), since it was always just implied he focused on his appearance/clothes more than anything. I can see the implication from his side but not Loras'. + Show Spoiler +Loras is also described as going mad and killing a lot of people to avenge Renly. As I said, you could read everything and not get it. I don't think there is actually any "doubt" when you look at everything without like 300 pages between each reference + Show Spoiler +Jaime also makes a few offhand remarks insinuating that Loras was Renly's lover.
Spoiler: Relationships of Loras
+ Show Spoiler +I think it should also be noted that Loras is never actually with any girl, despite being considered the most beautiful boy in the entire Kingdom. He plays the part by giving beautiful girls like Sansa roses, but he never actually does anything with them
It may never be insinuated directly that he and Renly were gay, but it was definetely inferred, and seems logical.
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On May 16 2011 11:33 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 11:29 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 16 2011 11:23 Strayline wrote:On May 16 2011 11:14 Xeteh wrote:On May 16 2011 11:09 Strayline wrote:No but it's heavily implied. + Show Spoiler +remember the rainbow guard? But yeah you could probably read everything and not pick up on it. I do but I never took it to mean anything other than Renly had a flair for the flamboyance (when I say it like that it definitely sounds gay), since it was always just implied he focused on his appearance/clothes more than anything. I can see the implication from his side but not Loras'. + Show Spoiler +Loras is also described as going mad and killing a lot of people to avenge Renly. As I said, you could read everything and not get it. I don't think there is actually any "doubt" when you look at everything without like 300 pages between each reference + Show Spoiler +Jaime also makes a few offhand remarks insinuating that Loras was Renly's lover. Spoiler: Relationships of Loras + Show Spoiler +I think it should also be noted that Loras is never actually with any girl, despite being considered the most beautiful boy in the entire Kingdom. He plays the part by giving beautiful girls like Sansa roses, but he never actually does anything with them
It may never be insinuated directly that he and Renly were gay, but it was definetely inferred, and seems logical.
Martin also directly stated so in an interview type thing.
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On May 16 2011 11:36 GGQ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 11:33 1Eris1 wrote:On May 16 2011 11:29 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 16 2011 11:23 Strayline wrote:On May 16 2011 11:14 Xeteh wrote:On May 16 2011 11:09 Strayline wrote:No but it's heavily implied. + Show Spoiler +remember the rainbow guard? But yeah you could probably read everything and not pick up on it. I do but I never took it to mean anything other than Renly had a flair for the flamboyance (when I say it like that it definitely sounds gay), since it was always just implied he focused on his appearance/clothes more than anything. I can see the implication from his side but not Loras'. + Show Spoiler +Loras is also described as going mad and killing a lot of people to avenge Renly. As I said, you could read everything and not get it. I don't think there is actually any "doubt" when you look at everything without like 300 pages between each reference + Show Spoiler +Jaime also makes a few offhand remarks insinuating that Loras was Renly's lover. Spoiler: Relationships of Loras + Show Spoiler +I think it should also be noted that Loras is never actually with any girl, despite being considered the most beautiful boy in the entire Kingdom. He plays the part by giving beautiful girls like Sansa roses, but he never actually does anything with them
It may never be insinuated directly that he and Renly were gay, but it was definetely inferred, and seems logical. Martin also directly stated so in an interview type thing.
Yeah I just did a bit of reading on westeros.org and apparently I missed some things.
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On May 16 2011 11:36 GGQ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 11:33 1Eris1 wrote:On May 16 2011 11:29 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 16 2011 11:23 Strayline wrote:On May 16 2011 11:14 Xeteh wrote:On May 16 2011 11:09 Strayline wrote:No but it's heavily implied. + Show Spoiler +remember the rainbow guard? But yeah you could probably read everything and not pick up on it. I do but I never took it to mean anything other than Renly had a flair for the flamboyance (when I say it like that it definitely sounds gay), since it was always just implied he focused on his appearance/clothes more than anything. I can see the implication from his side but not Loras'. + Show Spoiler +Loras is also described as going mad and killing a lot of people to avenge Renly. As I said, you could read everything and not get it. I don't think there is actually any "doubt" when you look at everything without like 300 pages between each reference + Show Spoiler +Jaime also makes a few offhand remarks insinuating that Loras was Renly's lover. Spoiler: Relationships of Loras + Show Spoiler +I think it should also be noted that Loras is never actually with any girl, despite being considered the most beautiful boy in the entire Kingdom. He plays the part by giving beautiful girls like Sansa roses, but he never actually does anything with them
It may never be insinuated directly that he and Renly were gay, but it was definetely inferred, and seems logical. Martin also directly stated so in an interview type thing.
Ahh really? Interesting. He usually seems to drop hints in the books and tries to let the readers figure out certain aspects. (Simple enough ones that most people can)
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On May 16 2011 11:04 Xeteh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 10:59 Dacendoran wrote:
I thought renly was supposed tyo be super fit and and look nearly exactly like robert did in his prime. Also he's gay x.c I don't quite remember that from the books I was thinking that too... I'll admit its been a while since I've read the books but was it ever mentioned either Renly or Loras were gay?
It's implied in the books, but not explicit.
However, Martin has mentioned on his blog that they are in fact both gay. So there you have it.
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just wanted to say i don't ever remember that renley scene in the book EVER (and i just finished reading book 1 recently)
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EPT
