EPT[TV] HBO Game of Thrones - Page 1169
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Zooper31
United States5711 Posts
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
On May 19 2014 13:13 sc2holar wrote: Thats kind of a trick question, because Stannis himself never actually does anything. Its pretty much Davos who handles all the talking/diplomancy to get Stannis out of trouble without recieving an inch of gratitude from his "King". That or Stannis simply does what Melissandre tells him to. By far the worst candidate for the throne imo. I think that's a mistake on how his character is written/shown. He has enough qualities to have gained his subjects loyal, almost blind, devotion. They just don't show us how and why, the iron bank scene was a prime example. Instead of letting him pull off a Kingly speech and awe us, they let Davos defend him. To put it more simply, the fact that Davos and Melissandre are awesome, proves that Stannis is awesome as well. They are not idiots to follow a pathetic man. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 19 2014 13:13 urboss wrote: Haha, great ending! Can't wait for The Mountain vs. Oberyn in two weeks! Me either. I'm going to be so anxious for it xD (I think oberyn is a cool character and the fact is if he loses then 2 awesome characters die). | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
 holy shit xD Dany even gave him the supportive: "Wait...tell him YOU changed my mind". Poor Jorah probably skipped down the hall when he was out of sight.. | ||
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sc2holar
Sweden1637 Posts
On May 19 2014 13:23 Steveling wrote: I think that's a mistake on how his character is written/shown. He has enough qualities to have gained his subjects loyal, almost blind, devotion. They just don't show us how and why, the iron bank scene was a prime example. Instead of letting him pull off a Kingly speech and awe us, they let Davos defend him. To put it more simply, the fact that Davos and Melissandre are awesome, proves that Stannis is awesome as well. They are not idiots to follow a pathetic man. Eh, Melissandre follows him because she belives he is "the chosen one" based on some old religious scriptures and Davos Follows Stannis because Stannis made him a Lord and as a former smuggler he would be arrested by the other powerful houses. The devout followers seem to be in it for the lord of light stuff, they have shown more interest in attending melissandres human sacrifises than anything related to stannis so far. Also when Robert died his bannermen from the stormlands chose to follow lil brother Renly first even though he had a weaker claim than Stannis. Kinda gives you an idea of how unpopular Stannis is even in his home kingdom... The guy is a douchebag, plain and simple. all he does is moan about being the rightful king despite the lannisters pretty much won the throne by conquest at blackwater (just like his brother robert took the throne by conquest from targaryens so his logic is hypocritical) and how he shouldnt have to ask or try to reach out to lords for support. He even fucking scolded Davos for gaining the support of two noble houses a few episodes ago. What has Stannis done except for cheating on his wife with his red priestess, really? and that was pure temptation he had no idea it would result in a shadow assasin baby it seemed. | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
On May 19 2014 13:37 sc2holar wrote: Eh, Melissandre follows him because she belives he is "the chosen one" based on some old religious scriptures and Davos Follows Stannis because Stannis made him a Lord and as a former smuggler he would be arrested by the other powerful houses. The devout followers seem to be in it for the lord of light stuff, they have shown more interest in attending melissandres human sacrifises than anything related to stannis so far. Also when Robert died his bannermen from the stormlands chose to follow lil brother Renly first even though he had a weaker claim than Stannis. Kinda gives you an idea of how unpopular Stannis is even in his home kingdom... Yeah, obviously he's unpopular, that doesn't say anything about his leadership qualities though. After all he's still alive, while 3 or 4 kings died. He has still many old noble bannermen of his that are loyal, it has being said in the show, it's just that these Houses are poor like him. lmao And you are lying about Davos. Davos respects him and would blindly trust him with his life because Stannis is who he is, not because he made him a stinking lord. Both Stannis and Davos are much better than this. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On May 19 2014 13:15 Zooper31 wrote: I almost cried when Oberyn was talking to Tyrion in the dungeon cell and told him he was going to fight for him. That look on his face like he was going to burst into tears and smile, that for once in the world, somebody genuinely cared for him. I just felt so fucking bad for him and felt relieved. Totally saw Oberyn vs the Mountain coming though, even without all the people in this thread saying it was going to happen. That scene with Oberyn and Tyrion was pure gold  | ||
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sc2holar
Sweden1637 Posts
On May 19 2014 13:45 Steveling wrote: Yeah, obviously he's unpopular, that doesn't say anything about his leadership qualities though. After all he's still alive, while 3 or 4 kings died. He has still many old noble bannermen of his that are loyal, it has being said in the show, it's just that these Houses are poor like him. lmao And you are lying about Davos. Davos respects him and would blindly trust him with his life because Stannis is who he is, not because he made him a stinking lord. Both Stannis and Davos are much better than this. Lol, the first and most important aspect of leadership is to gain powerful allies to strenghen your cause. If stannis followers had obeyed his "Amazing leadership qualities" at blackwater when he refused to back off and they had to carry him away, him and his entire army would have been slaughtered. So much for great leadership. Refusing to negotiate or team up with Robb Stark because the "King in the North" thing hurt his big ego, wich very well could have lost him the war. Way to go. He also planned to meet Renly on the field of Battle despite being outnumbered like 5 to 1 or something. Once again, the brilliant tactical and leadership qualities of Stannis Baratheon the spoiled, ungrateful charisma vacuum. The bank scene was another perfect example. He had a perfect chance to try to negotiate or convince the Bankers of Bravoos but he just sat there with his usual condescending look in his eyes and that "why the fuck should i have to raise a finger to earn the crown, the entire world should kiss my feet simply because my brother took the throne and then died"-attitude. Once again Davoos saved his ass because he is a hundred times more skilled diplomat and negotiator than Stannis despite barely being able to read and being raised in fleebottom by a crabber. | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
Stannis didn't drop off from some tree you know. He has fought countless battles and he won them, the few he lost he still managed to stay alive from. You said the he was carried away by his troops in Blackwater. If that doesn't show love and loyalty I don't know what does. To put it in perspective, Joffrey's men would gladly see him killed and Rob's men betrayed him and let him to his death. So tell me, who has gained loyalty between them? And who's still alive because of it? xD | ||
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sc2holar
Sweden1637 Posts
On May 19 2014 14:12 Steveling wrote: Davos is a better diplomat and negotiator exactly because he was raised in fleebottom. Stannis didn't drop off from some tree you know. He has fought countless battles and he won them, the few he lost he still managed to stay alive from. You said the he was carried away by his troops in Blackwater. If that doesn't show love and loyalty I don't know what does. To put it in perspective, Joffrey's men would gladly see him killed and Rob's men betrayed him and let him to his death. So tell me, who has gained loyalty between them? And who's still alive because of it? xD Robb was betrayed because he was considered a threat, so tywin arranged it. Nobody considers Stannis a threat after blackwater, thats why he is alive. You really dont see any leadership flaws in any of the things i just pointed out to you? Like not bothering to negotiate for an alliance with any of the major houses of westeros (like the starks who probably would have joined forces after renlys death), despite this being one of the most basic, fundamental cornerstones of solid leadership? Look at Tywin who agreed to unite with the Tyrells and won the war of the five kings as a result. Despite witnessing the power of such an alliance first hand at blackwater, Stannis has apparently still not learned this lesson. How does he even qualify as a leader when he just blindly follows Melissandres "visions"? | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
On May 19 2014 14:22 sc2holar wrote: Robb was betrayed because he was considered a threat, so tywin arranged it. Nobody considers Stannis a threat, thats why he is alive. You really dont see any leadership flaws in any of the things i just pointed out to you? Like, actually trying to gain allies wich is one of the most basic, fundamental cornerstones of solid leadership? Look at Tywin who agreed to unite with the Tyrells and won the war of the five kings as a result. Despite witnessing the power of such alliances first hand at blackwater, Stannis has apparently still not learned this lesson. STANNIS THE MANNIS WILL NOT LICK BOOTS TO GET A BIGGER ARMY!!! Joking aside, that's not a flaw in his military ways of doing things, this is his character you are judging, these are 2 different things. And btw, Rob didn't manage to make his generals believe in him. I mean, isn't that why Bolton betrayed him? I may be making stuff up, I'm not rly sure but I think he said so? He also let his mother go crazy and fuck up his campaign, not like he needed any help in doing so because he himself broke his vow with the Freys. Joffrey and Renly were kinda incompetent. Tywin on the other hand had Arya fucking Stark working under him and he didn't put two and two together. And don't forget that he was beat by Rob time and time again tactically. Not to mention that he has a genius civil servant, Tyrion, whom he loathes for completely stupid and childish reasons. If Stannis had met Tyrion in the proper circumstances, he would've made him a Senior Lord or something. After he had chopped off his knuckles ofcourse. | ||
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Maghetti
United States2429 Posts
On May 19 2014 14:22 sc2holar wrote: Robb was betrayed because he was considered a threat, so tywin arranged it. Nobody considers Stannis a threat after blackwater, thats why he is alive. You really dont see any leadership flaws in any of the things i just pointed out to you? Like not bothering to negotiate for an alliance with any of the major houses of westeros (like the starks who probably would have joined forces after renlys death), despite this being one of the most basic, fundamental cornerstones of solid leadership? Look at Tywin who agreed to unite with the Tyrells and won the war of the five kings as a result. Despite witnessing the power of such an alliance first hand at blackwater, Stannis has apparently still not learned this lesson. Stannis has serious faults for sure, but you are giving him no credit at all. Stannis is viewed as one of the greatest army commanders in westeros. Fear of him is what brought together the lannisters and tyrells, and even still Stannis would have taken the city if not for Tyrion being a genius commander himself and taking every step possible to hold the city. The stannis/davos/melisandre works in a way that mel provides magical foreknowledge and assassins and shit, davos negotiates and other similar tasks, and stannis kills shit. Without an army there is no way to kill shit. He is still alive for a reason, he has the backing of the iron bank, and is getting together a real force again with this money. Maybe we wait and see if he can live up to his reputation, hmm? | ||
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sc2holar
Sweden1637 Posts
On May 19 2014 14:33 Steveling wrote: STANNIS THE MANNIS WILL NOT LICK BOOTS TO GET A BIGGER ARMY!!! Joking aside, that's not a flaw in his military ways of doing things, this is his character you are judging, these are 2 different things. And btw, Rob didn't manage to make his generals believe in him. I mean, isn't that why Bolton betrayed him? I may be making stuff up, I'm not rly sure but I think he said so? He also let his mother go crazy and fuck up his campaign, not like he needed any help in doing so because he himself broke his vow with the Freys. Joffrey and Renly were kinda incompetent. Tywin on the other hand had Arya fucking Stark working under him and he didn't put two and two together. And don't forget that he was beat by Rob time and time again tactically. Not to mention that he has a genius civil servant, Tyrion, whom he loathes for completely stupid and childish reasons. If Stannis had met Tyrion in the proper circumstances, he would've made him a Senior Lord or something. After he had chopped off his knuckles ofcourse. Dude you are really scratching at the bottom of the barrell now. 1. Its not two different things. Its a gaping leadership flaw, regardless of character or personality. Remember how Tywin at first was appalled by the idea of allying with the Tyrells because of their previous rebellion against Joffrey? But he is wise enough to put such things aside for the sake of winning the war and securing the throne for his grandson. Saying "Its not in Stannis character to make friends or allies in a time of war" is basicly admitting to him being an incompetent leader. A competent leader will do whatever it takes to win a war. Stannis arrogance cost him his victory. There is no twisting around this fact. 2. Tywin arranged the red wedding and in return for their "service" Bolton was made Warden of the North and Frey Lord of Riverrun. Watch Episode 3:10. 3. Robb might have been worse than Stannis, at least with the Talisa thing. But you cannot blame him for his mothers actions. He didnt know she would basicly go crazy all of a sudden. Renly on the other hand united the Stormlands, the Reach and the North, set up a blockade preventing basicly any food from reaching kings landing and would have won the war easily had he not been killed with magic, wich by the way was all Melissandre, Stannis was not aware of the shadow assasin at that point. 4. How in the seven hells do you expect Tywin Lannister to put "two and two togheter" and recognize a Girl hed never met? Youre really telling me that he should have known based purely on the fact that she was a northern girl who could read? | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
You didn't say anything about Tyrion btw. He is extremely skilled and Tywin who's supposed to value competence and results shuns him. And he's doing that hoping he will govern through Tommen. But Tywin, get a grip you doddering old fool, you will live for 10 years more max and you will be lucky if you don't go alzheimers meanwhile. So who's next after he dies of old age like the iron bank scene also implied? The batshit crazy Cercei. | ||
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imJealous
United States1382 Posts
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sc2holar
Sweden1637 Posts
On May 19 2014 15:01 Steveling wrote: Don't know man, Arya Stark is missing and he suddenly meets a well brought up, studied, mannered northern girl and he's like all happy-go-lucky "yeah I'll believe this garbage for an excuse you are telling me". You didn't say anything about Tyrion btw. He is extremely skilled and Tywin who's supposed to value competence and results shuns him. And he's doing that hoping he will govern through Tommen. But Tywin, get a grip you doddering old fool, you will live for 10 years more max and you will be lucky if you don't go alzheimers meanwhile. So who's next after he dies of old age like the iron bank scene also implied? The batshit crazy Cercei. I thought we were talking about Stannis. Are you trying to change the subject and avoid my points because defending stannis as a Leader (and im talking about leader as in king, or principal lord - not battle commander) is next to impossible at this point? 1. At that point Tywin thought Arya Stark was held captive in kings landing. Baelish lied to his face and claimed that Tyrion had arranged for an exchange - Sansa and Arya for Jaime. 2. Tywin has recognized Tyrions competence on several occasions, namely when he named him hand of the king and recognized his efforts during the battle of blackwater. The reason he shuns Tyrion is because he is an alcoholic whoremonger wich brings shame on the entire Lannister family. Do you really forget all this so easy? 3. Stannis has no male heir and his daughter has a terminall illness. So even if he managed to take the throne, it would be passed down to Tommens or his son upon his death. He might have a few more years left than Tywin but his wife is already too old to ever grant him an heir so the realm would fall into turmoil after his death. | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
On May 19 2014 15:18 sc2holar wrote: I thought we were talking about Stannis. Are you trying to change the subject and avoid my points because defending stannis as a Leader (and im talking about leader as in king, or principal lord - not battle commander) is next to impossible at this point? 1. At that point Tywin thought Arya Stark was held captive in kings landing. Baelish lied to his face and claimed that Tyrion had arranged for an exchange - Sansa and Arya for Jaime. 2. Tywin has recognized Tyrions competence on several occasions, namely when he named him hand of the king and recognized his efforts during the battle of blackwater. The reason he shuns Tyrion is because he is an alcoholic whoremonger wich brings shame on the entire Lannister family. Do you really forget all this so easy? 3. Stannis has no male heir and his daughter has a terminall illness. So even if he managed to take the throne, it would be passed down to Tommens or his son upon his death. He might have a few more years left than Tywin but his wife is already too old to ever grant him an heir so the realm would fall into turmoil after his death. 1. So why would Tywin believe littlefinger of all people? xD 2. Really? Tyrion brings shame to the family because he visits brothels and the sickly disgusting twins don't? And tywin damn knows about them. 3. I don't think that disease is terminal? I think it's a coinflip between just carrying it and being terminal. Anyway, even if it is, Stannis is no bitch, if he has no legit heirs he will gladly give the throne to tommen. | ||
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urboss
Austria1223 Posts
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
On May 19 2014 15:29 urboss wrote: Btw, I just learned that midgets can have normal sized kids! HAH! Another grave Tywin mistake. He should let Tyrion fuck girls until he gets a grandson with normal size and tyrion's wits. | ||
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