Loosely based on Michael Crichton's 1973 sci fi film of the same name, Westworld is set in a wild west theme park where robots fulfill human guests' most hedonistic desires until things go wrong. However, HBO president Michael Lombardo said that the series will focus on the robots this time around.
Westworld will star Anthony Hopkins, Evan Rachel Wood, Thandie Newton, James Marsden and Ed Harris. It's being developed for HBO by executive producers J.J. Abrams, Bryan Burk, Jonathan Nolan (The Dark Knight trilogy, Person of Interest) and Lisa Joy (Burn Notice), and is set to debut on HBO in 2016.
One of HBO’s most ambitious upcoming series is, without a doubt, Westworld, inspired by the 1973 Michael Crichton film of the same name. The trailer, released a few weeks back, promises that the series is planning to be as epic and engrossing as HBO’s Game of Thrones, and audiences have been left wondering when the highly-anticipated series would debut.
Wonder no longer, friends, as HBO announced today at their Television Critics Association panel that Westworld will be premiering on Sunday, October 9 on HBO. With the premiere, we’ll be introduced to the series’ stellar cast, which includes Sir Anthony Hopkins, Ed Harris, Evan Rachel Wood, James Marsden, Thandie Newton, Jeffrey Wright, Tessa Thompson, Jimmi Simpson, Luke Hemsworth, and many, many more.
Isn't this show going the same way Game of Throws is and its extreme sex scenes and lots of "adult issues" to be politically correct? Or is the story actually worth watching in this?
On August 02 2016 17:19 Pandemona wrote: Isn't this show going the same way Game of Throws is and its extreme sex scenes and lots of "adult issues" to be politically correct? Or is the story actually worth watching in this?
Not a big fan of GoT but what does political correctness have to do with anything? You remind me of Stewart Lee's nan
On August 02 2016 17:19 Pandemona wrote: Isn't this show going the same way Game of Throws is and its extreme sex scenes and lots of "adult issues" to be politically correct? Or is the story actually worth watching in this?
On August 02 2016 17:19 Pandemona wrote: Isn't this show going the same way Game of Throws is and its extreme sex scenes and lots of "adult issues" to be politically correct? Or is the story actually worth watching in this?
"extreme sex scenes"? Well, I did see some boobs.
This is just a google search and there is so much more here. There was lots of this in the news when they were filming it.
Surely a positive of HBO programming is that it's not politically correct; that it doesn't shy away from dealing with violence, sex, power, etc. Deadwood is an exceptional example of this, with racial slurs being used against everyone from the Chinese to the Norwegians to the Cornish to the Jews, and yet all the characters ending up more interesting/believable as a result.
I don't understand how acknowledging the baser aspects of human nature is politically correct?
I was just saying that it seemed a bit extreme i have nothing against shows like it, Deadwood was also completely different as there was no excessive nudity and crazy stuff in it. Might have been vulgar language but was barely any nudity at least in the dozen episodes i have seen. Where as GOT and this looks like it again pushes the boundaries. I just don't want to watch another show like that where it is basically all about that and the story gets very lost fast.
As I remember it there was a running theme of Al Swearengen doing monologues about the state of the town while receiving oral sex. But maybe you're right about GoT being more extreme. I think it's fair to say that conservative attitudes to sex have almost no representation in Westeros.
On August 03 2016 06:41 Pandemona wrote: I just don't want to watch another show like that where it is basically all about that and the story gets very lost fast.
You've gotta be kidding. GoT's story got lost in 'excessive nudity'? Cersei's walk of shame was totally gratuitous and irrelevant to the narrative right?
"Clocking in at just under two and a half minutes, Season 6’s compilation has less than half the sex scenes as Season 4’s version, which previously held the record as the tamest."
2.5 minutes featuring the human body (including a naked crone and genital warts) ruining 10+ hours of narrative development. So unrealistic and gratuitous! Why should the GoT world be utterly censored according to modern prudishness?
The setting/premise seems kinda ridiculous. Does everybody in America want to be a cowboy? I see a lot of Texans walking around in them hats and boots.
On August 03 2016 10:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Texas is it's own topic, its very own mental asylum one could say. That and the series isn't based on real life western story. It's a SciFi.
I can't really figure out the setting. From the trailer it looks like a mix of Matrix and Wild West? Btw, actually I'd really love to watch a good series with real life western story... :/
On August 03 2016 10:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Texas is it's own topic, its very own mental asylum one could say. That and the series isn't based on real life western story. It's a SciFi.
I can't really figure out the setting. From the trailer it looks like a mix of Matrix and Wild West? Btw, actually I'd really love to watch a good series with real life western story... :/
Hell on Wheels, at least the first season, is pretty cool if you want "serious" Western.
On August 03 2016 10:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Texas is it's own topic, its very own mental asylum one could say. That and the series isn't based on real life western story. It's a SciFi.
I can't really figure out the setting. From the trailer it looks like a mix of Matrix and Wild West? Btw, actually I'd really love to watch a good series with real life western story... :/
It is based on a movie by Michael Crichton released in 1973 of the same name. In the original it's a western themed amusement park that malfunctions and the robots start killing visitors.
On August 03 2016 06:41 Pandemona wrote: I was just saying that it seemed a bit extreme i have nothing against shows like it, Deadwood was also completely different as there was no excessive nudity and crazy stuff in it. Might have been vulgar language but was barely any nudity at least in the dozen episodes i have seen. Where as GOT and this looks like it again pushes the boundaries. I just don't want to watch another show like that where it is basically all about that and the story gets very lost fast.
A lot of the nudity in GoT (and likely this show as well) is fan-service, but I doubt GoT got where it is now by being "all about that". That being said, I don't understand this fear of on-screen nudity. Good looking people being naked for a scene? How truly horrible.
Nobody bats an eye if there is a severed arm or some brain matter splashed around but a naked pair of wonderful, uninjured, healty boobies is a nogo.... lol
On August 09 2016 22:08 Harris1st wrote: whats wrong with some boobs once in a while?
Nobody bats an eye if there is a severed arm or some brain matter splashed around but a naked pair of wonderful, uninjured, healty boobies is a nogo.... lol
The trailers have been great, but some of the camera shots look a little... cheap? for an hbo show. There doesn't seem to be too much potential to the story, beyond the typical escalation plot leading to robots escaping or being able to live on their own.
On September 01 2016 05:29 ForTehDarkseid wrote: Same kind of story as GoT for me: all style, no substance.
Is it edgy to hate on GoT these days? The writing has deteriorated the last season or so but saying it has 'no substance' is ridiculous baiting. It's no 'The Wire' but it has its moments. Also not sure how you can say WW completely lacks substance based on that trailer, of course they're mainly showing the flashy stylistic shots and hiding much of the narrative.
On September 01 2016 05:29 ForTehDarkseid wrote: Same kind of story as GoT for me: all style, no substance.
Is it edgy to hate on GoT these days? The writing has deteriorated the last season or so but saying it has 'no substance' is ridiculous baiting. It's no 'The Wire' but it has its moments. Also not sure how you can say WW completely lacks substance based on that trailer, of course they're mainly showing the flashy stylistic shots and hiding much of the narrative.
I'm not going to quote him because you're right about GoT. Not sure what would make a man say that it has no substance. Less substance than it did in the first seasons but no substance? No intelligent person would say that.
And the stuff on the previous page about "extreme nudity" and the hogwash about the sex scenes... there's a few dicks and tits and 5 second sex scenes. There's also a man's head being crushed and exploding in a mess of blood and a slew of people getting dismembered and killed in gruesome way. Just because you react poorly to a floppy dick doesn't mean that it's gratuitous. Your reaction to nudity is your own and it sucks if you can't control it. (I'm talking to the thread).
Anyway, this looks interesting, I'll be sure to watch the first few episodes and hopefully it'll be interesting. It looks like a mindfuck kind of show and sometimes that doesn't mesh well with me.
Well, yeah, by no means I am a GoT fan, lol, but I won't waste any time bashing it here. The problem I see in the trailer is that the conspiracy theories are heavily implied right from the start. It could be great, it could be nonsense, but personally I thought that a heavy and slow-paced world building set around high-tech sexual fantasy amusement park and all that replicants feelings theme was the selling point of the show. In other words, less cowboy shootings and complex storytelling, more sci-fi and misoginy.
The hope is still high, though. So far it's only a marketing issue, and the setting has enormous potential even if the plot goes the trivial way. Let's hope that regular folk support the show so it gets a decent budgeting for the next year and didn't turn into a mild content cashcow the same time.
Earlier this year HBO shut down production on Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy‘s television remake of Michael Crichton‘s Westworld. When the J.J. Abrams-produced series was greenlit, HBO was hoping to premiere the series in 2015. Whatever the real reason was for the delay, Abrams was correct when he said it’s never a bad move not to rush to a premiere date. They took their time with the series, and according to actor James Marsden, it was somewhat because they were plotting future seasons. In fact, if all goes according to plan, we’ll get a total of five Westworld seasons.
The break allowed Nolan, Joy, and all involved the time to polish the scripts for the final episodes of season one. They needed time to catch up on writing while the show was in production, but they did more than just work on the first season. In an interview with Entertainment Weekly, the talent behind Westworld said they wanted time to figure out how to start building towards the potential series’ finale.
Here’s what James Marsden said about the process:
It wasn’t about getting the first 10 [episodes] done, it was about mapping out what the next 5 or 6 years are going to be. We wanted everything in line so that when the very last episode airs and we have our show finale, five or seven years down the line, we knew how it was going to end the first season – that’s the way [showrunner] Jonah [Nolan] and [executive producer J.J. Abrams] operate. They’re making sure all the ducks are in the row. And it’s a testament to Jonah and [co-showrunner] Lisa [Joy] and HBO that we got them right, especially the last three scripts. They could have rushed them and get spread too thin. They got them right, and when they were right, we went and shot them.
When Nolan and Joy first pitched the series, they envisioned three or four seasons, but it sounds like their story has grown during the making of season one. What would future seasons of Westworld be about? Nolan didn’t go into specific detail, but he said each season would be different:
We didn’t want to have a story that repeated itself [each year]. We didn’t want the Fantasy Island version of this [where new guests arrive at the park every season]. We wanted a big story. We wanted the story of the origin of a new species and how that would play out in its complexity.
Perhaps future seasons could explore Romanworld and Medievalworld? That’s doubtful, although we can always keep our fingers crossed for a nod here or there to those other worlds. Nolan’s comment on “the origin of a new species” is telling, though. If the artificial intelligence develops free will, will they ever become free? How would the world react to this new species? There’s plenty of questions to ask with Westworld‘s concept — questions that aren’t fully explored in the original — so it’s not surprising Nolan and Joy already have enough material in their back pocket for future seasons.
It just looks so good, hopefully this will be the next HBO hit. Despite making very good mini series ("The night of" and "Show Me a Hero") HBO imo lacks a really good ongoing drama. Yeah they have GoT but 1. The quality got worse and 2. It ends soon anyway
It just looks so good, hopefully this will be the next HBO hit. Despite making very good mini series ("The night of" and "Show Me a Hero") HBO imo lacks a really good ongoing drama. Yeah they have GoT but 1. The quality got worse and 2. It ends soon anyway
It just looks so good, hopefully this will be the next HBO hit. Despite making very good mini series ("The night of" and "Show Me a Hero") HBO imo lacks a really good ongoing drama. Yeah they have GoT but 1. The quality got worse and 2. It ends soon anyway
We need a new series on masterpiece lvl.
Does Girls qualify as a good ongoing drama?
You're joking right?
I really hope this series delivers. Hopefully this series won't be hindered too much by the production problems it had.
It just looks so good, hopefully this will be the next HBO hit. Despite making very good mini series ("The night of" and "Show Me a Hero") HBO imo lacks a really good ongoing drama. Yeah they have GoT but 1. The quality got worse and 2. It ends soon anyway
We need a new series on masterpiece lvl.
Does Girls qualify as a good ongoing drama?
I actually never saw it so i wouldn't know. So yeah maybe it is, i just don't see a lot of people talking about it which is why i didn't even take it into account
Also if you go the the official website and chat with Aiden and hold shift down, you get an easter egg. Also try asking him who are you? multiple times.
Yes she either lied, and some how the code is broken where she can injure other life, or maybe she realized that the fly isn't actually real, but also an android so she wasn't actually hurting anything? Making android flys seems exceptionally expensive over using the real thing though.
Also the hbo website lets us know how much it costs to visit: + Show Spoiler +
This was probably one of the best pilot episodes I've seen. The cast is just stacked and the writing is amazing. I also was positively surprised to see the Borgen PM in the show.
Pretty awesome stuff. Bonus points for the awesome Black Hole Sun and Paint It Black piano covers in the middle of the episode. Why are robots covering dead bodies in milk once they killed them though? Is this some kind of Wild West tradition I don't know of?
I think that there are two possibilities. The first is that he's doing commercial espionage for a competitor of Westworld's and that he is trying to figure out how the place works. This was my first impression. Thinking about it a little more, I also think that it is possible that he really is just some sick, psychotic guy who is looking to totally game the Westworld system and become kind of a deity-type person when he visits there. He's been going there for 30 years and clearly understands how most of the system works. He may be looking to take his experience to the next level by finding ways to program his own stories.
On October 04 2016 05:47 maybenexttime wrote: I am hooked. It's incredible that this show isn't based on a book. It's as deep as a good book, to be honest.
On October 04 2016 05:47 maybenexttime wrote: I am hooked. It's incredible that this show isn't based on a book. It's as deep as a good book, to be honest.
It is based on a book =p
There was a book released in conjunction with the original movie, but it's the script of the movie, rather than a novel that the movie was based on.
On October 04 2016 05:47 maybenexttime wrote: I am hooked. It's incredible that this show isn't based on a book. It's as deep as a good book, to be honest.
It is likely loosely based on this. Though from the trailers I am 100% sure the pilot goes well beyond this movie's scope. West World the movie is more important to the horror genre than sci-fi for its unresting monster.
I think that there are two possibilities. The first is that he's doing commercial espionage for a competitor of Westworld's and that he is trying to figure out how the place works. This was my first impression. Thinking about it a little more, I also think that it is possible that he really is just some sick, psychotic guy who is looking to totally game the Westworld system and become kind of a deity-type person when he visits there. He's been going there for 30 years and clearly understands how most of the system works. He may be looking to take his experience to the next level by finding ways to program his own stories.
I would bet on the 2nd possibility. I think it might also be connected to what was mentioned about + Show Spoiler +
management having its own, secret goals, which Ed will uncover
. Not sure how, though. At first, I thought that he might be crazy enough + Show Spoiler +
to be behind/trying to make the hosts go crazy, or have some kind of self-determination
. But his interest seems more of a curiosity because of how much time he's spent there (why he waited until day 2) rather than hard motivation. Unless what he did in day 1 was necessary and part of his plan...some kind of domino effect...hmmm..
the bug was not actually a bug, but rather an intended change introduced by Dr. Ford (Hopkins)? I got the impression that Peter Abernathy (father of Dolores) was sincere and truly conscious during the interrogation, and that Dr. Ford realized that and cleverly covered that up by saying it's his former personalities interfering with his current one
On October 04 2016 18:20 maybenexttime wrote: Does anyone else think that + Show Spoiler +
the bug was not actually a bug, but rather an intended change introduced by Dr. Ford (Hopkins)? I got the impression that Peter Abernathy (father of Dolores) was sincere and truly conscious during the interrogation, and that Dr. Ford realized that and cleverly covered that up by saying it's his former personalities interfering with his current one
I guess intended bug would be one way to put it, but personally, I feel that it's more of a setup for AI evolving...that scene, the cold storage facility, and Dolores killing the fly makes has me hooked and wondering how this series is going to develop
Sunday’s premiere episode delivered a strong 3.3 million viewers across its first two airings and streaming, industry sources say.
That’s HBO’s biggest series premiere audience since the first season of True Detective nearly three years ago (January 2014). And True Detective stands as HBO’s largest series opening since Boardwalk Empire back in 2010.
Westworld did way better than the network’s most recent expensive gamble, Vinyl, which opened to only 764,000 viewers last February and was canceled after a single season.
The sci-fi series was down a bit from a show to which its frequently compared, Game of Thrones, which debuted to 4.2 million viewers across multiple airings back in 2011.
Successful HBO dramas tend to often debut somewhat modest, then grow week after week due to word of mouth and subscribers getting a chance to catch up via On Demand, on DVR, and in repeats.
Combined with its glowing reviews from critics, Sunday’s Westworld ratings set the stage for an extremely likely second season renewal.
On October 04 2016 18:20 maybenexttime wrote: Does anyone else think that + Show Spoiler +
the bug was not actually a bug, but rather an intended change introduced by Dr. Ford (Hopkins)? I got the impression that Peter Abernathy (father of Dolores) was sincere and truly conscious during the interrogation, and that Dr. Ford realized that and cleverly covered that up by saying it's his former personalities interfering with his current one
I guess intended bug would be one way to put it, but personally, I feel that it's more of a setup for AI evolving...that scene, the cold storage facility, and Dolores killing the fly makes has me hooked and wondering how this series is going to develop
IIRC, Dr. Ford told his colleague that humanity reached an end and will not progress further. Perhaps his idea is to replace humans with artificial "life", not bound by the same limitations?
On October 04 2016 18:20 maybenexttime wrote: Does anyone else think that + Show Spoiler +
the bug was not actually a bug, but rather an intended change introduced by Dr. Ford (Hopkins)? I got the impression that Peter Abernathy (father of Dolores) was sincere and truly conscious during the interrogation, and that Dr. Ford realized that and cleverly covered that up by saying it's his former personalities interfering with his current one
I guess intended bug would be one way to put it, but personally, I feel that it's more of a setup for AI evolving...that scene, the cold storage facility, and Dolores killing the fly makes has me hooked and wondering how this series is going to develop
It's not a bug, it's a feature!
On October 05 2016 00:28 The_Red_Viper wrote: Pretty good start! The only problem i see atm is that i doubt this can go on for multiple seasons tbh
Why would you say that? I can see this go on forever! You can easily come up with neverending plots because it's kinda a whole new world we know pretty much nothing about...
On October 04 2016 18:20 maybenexttime wrote: Does anyone else think that + Show Spoiler +
the bug was not actually a bug, but rather an intended change introduced by Dr. Ford (Hopkins)? I got the impression that Peter Abernathy (father of Dolores) was sincere and truly conscious during the interrogation, and that Dr. Ford realized that and cleverly covered that up by saying it's his former personalities interfering with his current one
I guess intended bug would be one way to put it, but personally, I feel that it's more of a setup for AI evolving...that scene, the cold storage facility, and Dolores killing the fly makes has me hooked and wondering how this series is going to develop
On October 05 2016 00:28 The_Red_Viper wrote: Pretty good start! The only problem i see atm is that i doubt this can go on for multiple seasons tbh
Why would you say that? I can see this go on forever! You can easily come up with neverending plots because it's kinda a whole new world we know pretty much nothing about...
I mean there is a clear theme going on here, as soon as they decide to go discover it more i don't see how we can just show different parts of the world, etc I think i can see them doing 2-3 seasons max atm tbh, which would be totally fine btw!
Huh interesting. Six seasons seem like way too much to make it a tight story. But hey what do i know, maybe they can make it interesting without repeating the same things over and over again. So far it looks great, the acting was pretty good and the themes (obviously) are quite interesting.
A lot better than the trailers made it, that's for sure.
I wish they went more into the process of the guests visit. Is it a one day stay? Is there a curfew? etc. + Show Spoiler +
I didn't buy that the father broke down over one picture of something he couldn't make out. Even from the interviews afterword he only spouts out pre programmed things in different ways.
On October 05 2016 03:56 Hexe wrote: A lot better than the trailers made it, that's for sure.
I wish they went more into the process of the guests visit. Is it a one day stay? Is there a curfew? etc. I didn't buy that the father broke down over one picture of something he couldn't make out. Even from the interviews afterword he only spouts out pre programmed things in different ways.
On October 05 2016 03:56 Hexe wrote: A lot better than the trailers made it, that's for sure.
I wish they went more into the process of the guests visit. Is it a one day stay? Is there a curfew? etc. I didn't buy that the father broke down over one picture of something he couldn't make out. Even from the interviews afterword he only spouts out pre programmed things in different ways.
How do you know he spouted pre-programmed things?
What is the spoiler policy for this thread, by the way?
They can just say Wild West is just one of the many theme parks that they managed (e.g. Season1), the story can go on forever if they can get good writers aboard.
On October 05 2016 03:56 Hexe wrote: A lot better than the trailers made it, that's for sure.
I wish they went more into the process of the guests visit. Is it a one day stay? Is there a curfew? etc. I didn't buy that the father broke down over one picture of something he couldn't make out. Even from the interviews afterword he only spouts out pre programmed things in different ways.
How do you know he spouted pre-programmed things?
What is the spoiler policy for this thread, by the way?
I'd be down to have the same spoiler policy as the HBO GoT thread, that is, don't come in the thread unless you saw the latest episode/don't care about spoiler.
On October 05 2016 03:56 Hexe wrote: I wish they went more into the process of the guests visit. Is it a one day stay? Is there a curfew? etc.
well, it's only the first episode... we can't know everything yet. but it's pretty clear they can stay many days. One guest in the train said he already came 2 time, first with his family and the 2nd time, he went full evil "best 2 weeks of my life"
On October 04 2016 03:44 OtherWorld wrote: Pretty awesome stuff. Bonus points for the awesome Black Hole Sun and Paint It Black piano covers in the middle of the episode.
The classical version of paint it black during the robbery felt really out of place to me.
On October 04 2016 03:44 OtherWorld wrote: Pretty awesome stuff. Bonus points for the awesome Black Hole Sun and Paint It Black piano covers in the middle of the episode.
The classical version of paint it black during the robbery felt really out of place to me.
I agree, I thought it sounded really odd. Otherwise, great first episode
This show is just great. I mean if you have Ed Harris on board your show's value goes up 200%. I mean this guy hasn't been in anything worthwhile in years, and now he was cast as this mysterious badass. Can't wait for next Sunday.
Quality so far, interesting melange of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep (Blade Runner), A Clonus Horros/The Island and presumably, to a certain extent Jurassic Park once the hosts start to remember what has been done to them.
Can't wait to see what happens. I think that there is some kind of paradigm between Hopkins and the Man in Black with seemingly free reign over the park, including the line,+ Show Spoiler +
Yeah, someone said they saw the Man in Black glitch out at one point and now believe him to be a robot as well. Gonna have to rewatch the episodes because I didn't see it.
On October 12 2016 23:06 farvacola wrote: Yeah, someone said they saw the Man in Black glitch out at one point and now believe him to be a robot as well. Gonna have to rewatch the episodes because I didn't see it.
That was my initial supposition, but to my mind that they showed the control room call him out specifically kind of put that to rest in my head.
He also references the cost he pays to go there in E1. Up in the air though, I hadn't heard about the supposed glitch, and it still wouldn't be a stretch to write in, so we'll see.
he's not a glitch, he's expirienced user of those park (mentioned "30 years ago" few times and "glad i'm back"), security also knew about him and he definitely knows lots about NPCs and quests
maybe somehow related to previous versions of westworld or some incident? what's the deal with those maze still remains uncertain,any ideas? :/ Hopkins seems like playing God with his new story, it was a bit creepy in the end actually
While i enjoyed the second episode as well, i still have a problem with the show (already). Too much hinges on mystery imo. The characters fall flat. This could be a problem in the long run, at least for me.
On October 13 2016 00:17 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Guessing the Maze is a map/entry points that guests use to get in and out of the park i.e. Rail lines.
Yeah i also think it's about getting into the real world. The little girl told the MiB that the maze isn't meant for him, i think it might be meant for the hosts instead. When they realize westworld isn't real, etc
On October 13 2016 00:11 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: he's not a glitch, he's expirienced user of those park (mentioned "30 years ago" few times and "glad i'm back"), security also knew about him and he definitely knows lots about NPCs and quests
maybe somehow related to previous versions of westworld or some incident? what's the deal with those maze still remains uncertain,any ideas? :/ Hopkins seems like playing God with his new story, it was a bit creepy in the end actually
I think the maze could be related to getting into the HQ or operations center? I'm not sure, because otherwise it seems like a kind of City Slickers plot line. Some hidden part of the game for the most dedicated tourists.
If the MIB is actually a corrupted host or something, he would have to have been an early build, or a pet project of Hopkins creating a host that isn't technically a host to do testing. I dunno, there are many ways to explain it out that I can come up with.
Didn't the maze look some kind of circuit? Why would that dude have a maze of the rail lines on the top of his scalp?
The thing that bugs me most about this show is that it's not clear how/why the guests are unable to harm other guests. It can't be just some kind of stupid "smart gun" thing where the guns won't fire on actual humans, right? What about knives or whatever?
On October 13 2016 06:28 IgnE wrote: Didn't the maze look some kind of circuit? Why would that dude have a maze of the rail lines on the top of his scalp?
The thing that bugs me most about this show is that it's not clear how/why the guests are unable to harm other guests. It can't be just some kind of stupid "smart gun" thing where the guns won't fire on actual humans, right? What about knives or whatever?
This maze may be some kind of high level quest as well, only for "experts"
They will explain everything, step by step but i'm also curious how exactly those world works.
On October 13 2016 06:28 IgnE wrote: Didn't the maze look some kind of circuit? Why would that dude have a maze of the rail lines on the top of his scalp?
The thing that bugs me most about this show is that it's not clear how/why the guests are unable to harm other guests. It can't be just some kind of stupid "smart gun" thing where the guns won't fire on actual humans, right? What about knives or whatever?
It's been 2 episodes. I'm sure it will be revealed in time.
Westworld has become Sky Atlantic’s most successful new series debut, eclipsing both Game of Thrones and Fortitude in its first week.
A total of 1.84 million people have watched the sci-fi series since its launch on 4 October. The previous biggest series premiere on the channel, Fortitude, drew 1.74 million in its first week, and episode one season one of Game of Thrones was seen by 1.45 million.
Westworld is set in a hedonistic theme park populated by lifelike androids and is based on the 1973 film by Michael Crichton which starred Yul Brynner as a murderous robot cowboy.
The remake boasts an all-star cast, including Anthony Hopkins, Evan Rachel Wood and Ed Harris, and counts Star Trek and Star Wars: Force Awakens director JJ Abrams among its executive producers.
The show has also been a hit in the US, providing HBO with the largest premiere audience since the first series of True Detective with 3.3 million viewers across all devices. It has also received a largely positive critical response on both sides of the Atlantic, and was described by the Guardian as “a seamless marriage of western and dystopian sci-fi corporate thriller”.
However, in an indication of how rapidly viewing habits are changing, the bulk of Westworld’s viewers tuned in after it was first broadcast either recorded or on-demand, with just 448,000 watching live. The total number of viewers for Westworld in the first week is likely to increase further as Sky’s Now TV and and Sky Go app are not included in the catchup figures.
In contrast, almost half of those who watched the first ever episode of Game of Thrones in 2011 did so on launch night, while 722,000 caught Fortitude live when it began in January 2015.
What I find interesting about The Man In Black, is how his role in the plot will develop as the hosts start to gain more awareness.
He's been going to the park for so long that he's likely to have had interactions (probably negative), with many of the hosts. This is supported by the dream sequences in Ep. 2, where he appears at the end of the nightmare. So, the MiB is essentially a part of the subconscious of the hosts, taking the role of Boogeyman.
Assuming that we reach a point where the hosts gain awareness and the ability to harm the guests, we'll have to see how this impacts the MiB's quest. Likely there'll be some kind of reckoning with vengeful hosts.
I absolutely love it, now after watching #2, i feel like Dolores her acting is not on par with the rest of the cast haha, beautiful series, I barely have any tvseries to watch nowadays so I am so glad that HBO delivers.
On October 16 2016 19:46 BurningSera wrote: I absolutely love it, now after watching #2, i feel like Dolores her acting is not on par with the rest of the cast haha, beautiful series, I barely have any tvseries to watch nowadays so I am so glad that HBO delivers.
Good episode. They will have to show what happens to the people dragged miles from the train station and get scared like that one girl or just in general. I wonder if they have like helicopters and shit.
The glitches and stuff are getting a little out of hand though especially paired with geniuses not shutting down things when something goes wrong. "We cant shut them down now, we have narratives to do!"
On October 17 2016 14:04 Hexe wrote: The glitches and stuff are getting a little out of hand though especially paired with geniuses not shutting down things when something goes wrong. "We cant shut them down now, we have narratives to do!"
Bernard wants them to continue glitching as he is fascinated by 'real' consciousness maybe because he wants his son back as was hinted. Robert Ford on the other hand knows a lot more than he his saying and knows what Bernard is up to and he seems more interested in his own project whatever it will be.
First episodes he admires them because humanity has reached it's limit/peak then he goes off and cut one to show they aren't real but he designs them to bleed and so forth.
I don't think he admires them and it seems to me that he's totally conscious that they are not here to play god (and that it is a serious mistake to try to). Which is why he cuts the robot to show the probably new guy that those are just robots and not humans.
On October 18 2016 09:48 Yhamm wrote: I don't think he admires them and it seems to me that he's totally conscious that they are not here to play god (and that it is a serious mistake to try to). Which is why he cuts the robot to show the probably new guy that those are just robots and not humans.
I agree with this. I think he's trying to tell an intricate grand story but he sees other members of the staff mistake that for trying to play God. The show seems to be going in this direction but I hope they further explore the distinction between being the conductor of an orchestra and being in absolute control of the music.
I'm really enjoying the thematic elements of the show of memory, illusion vs reality, and the robots being haunted by their inherent roles as victims, especially by each other in the stories.
Did you guys notice how at the end the guy shot Dolores and she was bleeding from the stomach - then cut to the situation again where he missed here. I perceived the scene as one day, or loop if you wanna call it that, passing in an eyeblink to the same situation (it's like she loaded a game). Am I crazy or is this what the showrunners were saying?
On October 19 2016 02:36 herMan wrote: Did you guys notice how at the end the guy shot Dolores and she was bleeding from the stomach - then cut to the situation again where he missed here. I perceived the scene as one day, or loop if you wanna call it that, passing in an eyeblink to the same situation (it's like she loaded a game). Am I crazy or is this what the showrunners were saying?
I thought it was part of her loop and that's the way it would normally play out and she knew it so she did something outside of her normal loop which should not be possible for the hosts.
this whole "weapons privileges" though seems like nonsense. it does nothing to explain why hosts with weapon privileges are unable to kill humans. like how does the gun know its pointing at a human and that it should only shoot like a weak BB or whatever it is? and if weapons can't harm humans anyway what's the point of "weapon privileges"?
On October 19 2016 02:36 herMan wrote: Did you guys notice how at the end the guy shot Dolores and she was bleeding from the stomach - then cut to the situation again where he missed here. I perceived the scene as one day, or loop if you wanna call it that, passing in an eyeblink to the same situation (it's like she loaded a game). Am I crazy or is this what the showrunners were saying?
I thought it was part of her loop and that's the way it would normally play out and she knew it so she did something outside of her normal loop which should not be possible for the hosts.
I thought the same but at the start of the episode, didn't the gun disapear in the drawer?
On October 19 2016 03:41 IgnE wrote: this whole "weapons privileges" though seems like nonsense. it does nothing to explain why hosts with weapon privileges are unable to kill humans. like how does the gun know its pointing at a human and that it should only shoot like a weak BB or whatever it is? and if weapons can't harm humans anyway what's the point of "weapon privileges"?
it could be some smart guns or something, or just that the bullets do excessive damage to robot cause that's how they are built. And for the weapon privilege, I think it's for the bladed weapon & the like? they can always be dangerous against humans so only selected robots are allowed to use them
On October 19 2016 03:41 IgnE wrote: this whole "weapons privileges" though seems like nonsense. it does nothing to explain why hosts with weapon privileges are unable to kill humans. like how does the gun know its pointing at a human and that it should only shoot like a weak BB or whatever it is? and if weapons can't harm humans anyway what's the point of "weapon privileges"?
I think it may be the case that it's not a property of the bullets, but rather the hosts are made in such a way that they can react to being hit. Think of it like the squibs/compressed gas that are used for film effects. That's the same reason there wouldn't be issues with shrapnel.
The point of the privileges may also just be an immersion/ease of programming thing. It restricts the situations in which the hosts can operate.
On October 19 2016 03:41 IgnE wrote: this whole "weapons privileges" though seems like nonsense. it does nothing to explain why hosts with weapon privileges are unable to kill humans. like how does the gun know its pointing at a human and that it should only shoot like a weak BB or whatever it is? and if weapons can't harm humans anyway what's the point of "weapon privileges"?
I think it may be the case that it's not a property of the bullets, but rather the hosts are made in such a way that they can react to being hit. Think of it like the squibs/compressed gas that are used for film effects. That's the same reason there wouldn't be issues with shrapnel.
The point of the privileges may also just be an immersion/ease of programming thing. It restricts the situations in which the hosts can operate.
This is complete conjecture though.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If a bullet can break a bottle (episode 2, I believe), then wouldn't it be able to kill a human?
Maybe all guns in Westworld have special bullets (that the robots don't know about)? Maybe with a sensor in it so that the bullets breaks apart/shatters if it detects it is near to a human? Something like that maybe?
On October 19 2016 02:36 herMan wrote: Did you guys notice how at the end the guy shot Dolores and she was bleeding from the stomach - then cut to the situation again where he missed here. I perceived the scene as one day, or loop if you wanna call it that, passing in an eyeblink to the same situation (it's like she loaded a game). Am I crazy or is this what the showrunners were saying?
I thought it was part of her loop and that's the way it would normally play out and she knew it so she did something outside of her normal loop which should not be possible for the hosts.
I thought the same but at the start of the episode, didn't the gun disapear in the drawer?
It did but i'm guessing it was another memory. I mean it's not a simulation so things shouldn't be disappearing, right? I'm not sure man.
On October 19 2016 03:41 IgnE wrote: this whole "weapons privileges" though seems like nonsense. it does nothing to explain why hosts with weapon privileges are unable to kill humans. like how does the gun know its pointing at a human and that it should only shoot like a weak BB or whatever it is? and if weapons can't harm humans anyway what's the point of "weapon privileges"?
I think it may be the case that it's not a property of the bullets, but rather the hosts are made in such a way that they can react to being hit. Think of it like the squibs/compressed gas that are used for film effects. That's the same reason there wouldn't be issues with shrapnel.
The point of the privileges may also just be an immersion/ease of programming thing. It restricts the situations in which the hosts can operate.
This is complete conjecture though.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If a bullet can break a bottle (episode 2, I believe), then wouldn't it be able to kill a human?
Maybe I missed some of the collateral damage occurring during the gunfights.
What I was getting at was the idea that the bullets are non-lethal/non-damaging (for the most part), and that instead, when a host is hit, the host itself reacts to the bullet by 'exploding' where the hit occurred. This is similar to how gunshot effects themselves are filmed.
However, if there's evidence of the bullets causing damage to the environment as you mentioned, this is probably incorrect. The mechanism to not cause harm being in the bullets themselves doesn't quite make sense, as there'd be lots of room for injuries to occur. Firing different bullets depending on what you're pointing at would suffer from some of the same problems.
So, it's probably best to just say 'Magic!', and suspend disbelief.
The show website stated that the bullets are key whether a host shoots a guest or vice versa, not the gun. This seems to indicate that at some point a host will get its hands on "guest bullets" and use them with malicious intent.
I could see the the host bullets disintegrating when it hits a guest, and thus becoming nonlethal. I can't think of a solution on how this would actually be accomplished though.
On October 19 2016 03:41 IgnE wrote: this whole "weapons privileges" though seems like nonsense. it does nothing to explain why hosts with weapon privileges are unable to kill humans. like how does the gun know its pointing at a human and that it should only shoot like a weak BB or whatever it is? and if weapons can't harm humans anyway what's the point of "weapon privileges"?
It's a fail safe so that they only have to worry about X amount of hosts even possibly having a malfunction and doing something that could harm humans. Dolores was able to break the fail safe. Here is an explanation of why real guns wouldn't fire at real people in the original movie:
When Peter (a first-timer) asks John (a veteran parkgoer) how he can be sure the "people" he kills aren't really alive, John tells his friend to try shooting him to see what happens.
Peter points his gun at John, and tries to pull the trigger.
Nothing happens.
"The gun has a sensing device," John says. "It won't fire at anything with a high body temperature. Only something cold like a machine."
"Hmm. They've thought of everything," Peter replies.
To extend on what Mr. Wiggles is saying, it could be that instead of guns firing anything lethal, what happens is simply that the thing that should have been hit self-destructs. Hosts are designed so that blood spurts where they've been slightly hit by a gun bullet, and they stop functioning after a "death animation". Similarly, they could use special smart bottles that self-destructs when they detect a bullet impact.
As long as we don't know more, nothing is too crazy to assume in Westworld as far as technology is concerned, it's supposed to happen in a very advanced world, and with almost unlimited resources. Perfect physical androids are regularly created, damaged, repaired, destroyed. The horses are fake, why can't the bottles be as well? There is probably a hundred ways to simulate smart bullet-firing guns. Maybe the guns can fire 2 types of bullets, picked on-the-fly depending on what's going to be hit. I don't think it's that important.
Edit: And as for "why weapon privileges?". Video game design. You can imagine each WW host as an NPC with hard-coded dialogue and behavior (to conform to "scenarios", which are just what we call quests or events usually), but also a degree of freedom around those, to make them react to circumstances and feel more real (that's the part that "passes the Turing test"). Dolores is supposed to fit a NPC archetype that should be obvious for players at all times: the "innocent naive young beautiful girl" or whatever. So to avoid any unwanted behavior when the NPC improvises around its routes/lines, the creators hard-code some permissions to stuff like weapons because that would make Dolores break character too much in their opinion. Players can now interact safely and predictably with her, and the creators can design other encounters around her because they're certain she won't deviate too much from the "innocent girl" template.
On October 19 2016 03:41 IgnE wrote: this whole "weapons privileges" though seems like nonsense. it does nothing to explain why hosts with weapon privileges are unable to kill humans. like how does the gun know its pointing at a human and that it should only shoot like a weak BB or whatever it is? and if weapons can't harm humans anyway what's the point of "weapon privileges"?
It's a fail safe so that they only have to worry about X amount of hosts even possibly having a malfunction and doing something that could harm humans. Dolores was able to break the fail safe. Here is an explanation of why real guns wouldn't fire at real people in the original movie:
When Peter (a first-timer) asks John (a veteran parkgoer) how he can be sure the "people" he kills aren't really alive, John tells his friend to try shooting him to see what happens.
Peter points his gun at John, and tries to pull the trigger.
Nothing happens.
"The gun has a sensing device," John says. "It won't fire at anything with a high body temperature. Only something cold like a machine."
"Hmm. They've thought of everything," Peter replies.
the "cold robots" hypothesis doesn't make sense either though. why would anyone have sex with a cold robot?
On October 19 2016 03:41 IgnE wrote: this whole "weapons privileges" though seems like nonsense. it does nothing to explain why hosts with weapon privileges are unable to kill humans. like how does the gun know its pointing at a human and that it should only shoot like a weak BB or whatever it is? and if weapons can't harm humans anyway what's the point of "weapon privileges"?
It's a fail safe so that they only have to worry about X amount of hosts even possibly having a malfunction and doing something that could harm humans. Dolores was able to break the fail safe. Here is an explanation of why real guns wouldn't fire at real people in the original movie:
When Peter (a first-timer) asks John (a veteran parkgoer) how he can be sure the "people" he kills aren't really alive, John tells his friend to try shooting him to see what happens.
Peter points his gun at John, and tries to pull the trigger.
Nothing happens.
"The gun has a sensing device," John says. "It won't fire at anything with a high body temperature. Only something cold like a machine."
"Hmm. They've thought of everything," Peter replies.
the "cold robots" hypothesis doesn't make sense either though. why would anyone have sex with a cold robot?
Yeah that was the way it worked in the original movie, but they could have sensors that only arm the gun when they detect they are aimed at a host. Of course you still have to wonder about stray bullets, or bullets that might go clean thru a host and hit a guest. or ricochet, ect. So I tend to agree that the best theory so far is that always fire the pellets and the hosts are just designed to take wounds from those pellets as if they were real bullets.
I think there will be quite a bit of unexplained almost-magical technology in there. I wouldn't worry about something as small as the selective bullet thing. If you wonder about that, you might as well wonder about how the androids are powered, for example :D.
On October 18 2016 09:38 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: First episodes he admires them because humanity has reached it's limit/peak then he goes off and cut one to show they aren't real but he designs them to bleed and so forth.
I think showing admiration when someone who understands your thinking already is in the room is appropriate. Showing the admiration to a newbie who doesn't 100% believe that they are nothing but machines might be a dangerous thing, though.
edit: Anyway, I love the show, the music, the crazy world building in store and already showed. Geez, I wish I could have been part of the crew just to know how everything was done. Lovely.
Also that younger version of Anthony Hopkins was crazy good. Hats off to the craftsmen who made that scene come to life.
On October 20 2016 03:34 ZenithM wrote: I think there will be quite a bit of unexplained almost-magical technology in there. I wouldn't worry about something as small as the selective bullet thing. If you wonder about that, you might as well wonder about how the androids are powered, for example :D.
Yeah, it is very weird and inconsistent with guns. But being HBO and having crates of fake blood that will go unused in Game of Thrones, I'm sure Westworld will make it appropriately horrible when the androids stab and axe people to death.
I definitely disagree; the damsel and the cowboy are superbly acted. Their coming to self-consciousness is given a very subtle but convincing touch by both of the performers (And that's not even touching on Ed Harris nor Anthony Hopkins; I think the dude from Boardwalk Empire is the weakest).
It's not the acting i have a problem with. It's moreso that no character is really interesting as a character so far with maybe 1-2 exceptions. It's more the mystery and theme of self-consciousness, memory, etc which are done well. Obviously it's still pretty early to say that after three episodes though. Lot of character development could still happen.
I dunno, I find that all the main human characters have a lot of ambiguity to them (except the gross storyline guy, though I'm not sure if he qualifies as "main"), which is pretty exciting. As for the hosts, they're not very exciting for now, but that's normal.
On October 21 2016 02:40 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's not the acting i have a problem with. It's moreso that no character is really interesting as a character so far with maybe 1-2 exceptions. It's more the mystery and theme of self-consciousness, memory, etc which are done well. Obviously it's still pretty early to say that after three episodes though. Lot of character development could still happen.
I am with you in this one, they better begin to allow some character development soon because this chapter for me was like a tiny step forward from the second one, something big has to happen if they want to replace GoT with this show. It is good but not a game changer.
On October 22 2016 02:46 sertas wrote: episode 2 and 3 barely pushed the story forward at all. Just random inconsequential events and some new characters introduced.
They are building the world and distinguishing which problems are normal and which are not. The weird thing is the androids don't have characters that need developing so much as individual stories and loops that need to be explained because it is different from human habits.
As the show follows the MiB and Ford, it's fascinating to see how big Westworld is and that obscure stories are playing out every day in this world without the vast majority of guests.
The company behind the park is incredibly stupid for making changes on the fly, especially with writers seeming to undermine Ford and the editorial process. Since they're playing it out among the hosts, I feel like there would be a virtual parallel world host interactions would be predicted and simulated, rather than updating the androids while guests are actually in the park.
MiB storyline is kinda boring to me... the maze I'm guessing is just some kind of more advanced Turing test, which is cool but I find his storyline too mystical.
The rest is great tho and his storyline might still be fun in the end (it started off great, though I thought it was just setting us up for him getting killed brutally later).
I think the Maze is a place where the guests are not restricted from being killed. It seems to be one of MiB's problem with the park, no challenge because there is no threat of death.
Just throwing this idea out here: Bernard could be a host. People have been speculating that he carries on Arnold's will and that his son dying is just a backstory like the one given to Teddy and others. Ford also talks to him sometimes saying "... won't you, Bernard?" which is used as a command phrase on the hosts.
If Bernard is a host, it readily explains why Ford knows so much about the employees, like Theresa sleeping with him. I kinda hope they have more in store for him instead of just being a rehashed revelation from the first episode á la Teddy.
I really like Hector's character, reminds me very much like Ben Foster's performance in 3:10 to Yuma.
I can kind of get behind the whole Bernard is a host thing.
I thought that the person whispering to the hosts was Arnold but maybe it could be Ford. For the Maze, I originally thought it was put there to test the hosts of a possible AI testing or something.
On October 28 2016 19:38 OtherWorld wrote: Bernard seems to be so much more evolved than other hosts though, and yet never has any bugs.
There is a strong suggestion in the show that they can make the hosts more lifelike than they do, if they aren't worried about the consciousness issue.
Ford argued that it is much more complicated process to make hosts more real, and that Arnold died due to this? And I disagree with Bernard being a host, othwerwise why would u put a skype call scene with his wife in ep4.
On October 28 2016 20:23 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Ford argued that it is much more complicated process to make hosts more real, and that Arnold died due to this? And I disagree with Bernard being a host, othwerwise why would u put a skype call scene with his wife in ep4.
While I don't buy this theory, the Skype conversation is not inconsistent with it, because working away from his family would be part of his backstory, and obviously he'd be unaware of the fact that he is not a real human.
Another possible clue could be Dolores repeating that the pain she felt was apart of her. Just like what Bernard said to his wife regarding his kid. Seems like something Ford would say.
Edit: also I wonder if William's friend switching out his gun will do anything, since people were talking about gun specs
the chronology of the show isn't clear either. scenes are shown back-to-back but that doesn't mean they are chronological. it's really unclear when bernard is even interviewing dolores or doing a lot of the debugging relative to events within westworld
On October 29 2016 05:02 IgnE wrote: the chronology of the show isn't clear either. scenes are shown back-to-back but that doesn't mean they are chronological. it's really unclear when bernard is even interviewing dolores or doing a lot of the debugging relative to events within westworld
Yeah. Chronology has to be at least a little off because they're clearly not whisking her away in the middle of the night from White-Hat's camp to do diagnostics. That and the part where we've seen multiple cycles in the last 3 episodes, but White-Hat is clearly in a single cycle (and MiB is in a particularly long one right now.)
Edit: The girlfriend also noticed that Bernard is always dressed distinctively when doing the "dream" interviews, even if he hasn't been in preceding scenes. I can't vouch for that, but she's pretty sure they are literally Dolores' dreams.
On October 29 2016 04:52 Sterlymobile wrote: Another possible clue could be Dolores repeating that the pain she felt was apart of her. Just like what Bernard said to his wife regarding his kid. Seems like something Ford would say.
Edit: also I wonder if William's friend switching out his gun will do anything, since people were talking about gun specs
Ive been wondering about the gun as well. I think it might just be a video game loot reference. If host and ai guns differ to the point of danger it would just be way too big of a risk.
On October 29 2016 05:02 IgnE wrote: the chronology of the show isn't clear either. scenes are shown back-to-back but that doesn't mean they are chronological. it's really unclear when bernard is even interviewing dolores or doing a lot of the debugging relative to events within westworld
Yeah. Chronology has to be at least a little off because they're clearly not whisking her away in the middle of the night from White-Hat's camp to do diagnostics. That and the part where we've seen multiple cycles in the last 3 episodes, but White-Hat is clearly in a single cycle (and MiB is in a particularly long one right now.)
Edit: The girlfriend also noticed that Bernard is always dressed distinctively when doing the "dream" interviews, even if he hasn't been in preceding scenes. I can't vouch for that, but she's pretty sure they are literally Dolores' dreams.
How about memories manifesting as dreams? Bernard always asks her if she knows where she is and the reply is "In a dream", which fits if it's a memory of a past event as well.
Another option could be that it is indeed a dream representation of Bernard interfacing with her digitally rather than in person? Not entirely clear how capable of doing that they are but it seems weird to have to everything in person.
On October 28 2016 02:13 IgnE wrote: yeah the maze seems to be a place with no rules given the dialogue in the last episode
and the bernard as host theory seems plausible
What is the point of a place with no rules if it's only for the AI bots and not the guests? I still feel like it's some kind of consciousness test related to Arnold tho that's a bit of personal bias because I like the idea
I just feel like MiB is chasing this place that he expects to be one thing, then when he gets there it will be something completely different and just spit him out. Think Guy Pierce's character in Prometheus when he finally meets the engineer.
The more i watch it the more i think the writers don't have enough meat to do more than one season (and even one season is already stretching it) Every episode is about an hour and has content for 20-30 minutes at best, this feels like LOST all over again (without the well developed characters). In this case i think they at least know where they wanna go with it, but so does everyone else i guess? (hosts with consciousness, some sort of revolt, etc) Not saying it is bad (i enjoy it on some levels, very much so tbh), but i am quite disappointed because i thought it would be much more
On October 29 2016 20:55 The_Red_Viper wrote: The more i watch it the more i think the writers don't have enough meat to do more than one season (and even one season is already stretching it) Every episode is about an hour and has content for 20-30 minutes at best, this feels like LOST all over again (without the well developed characters). In this case i think they at least know where they wanna go with it, but so does everyone else i guess? (hosts withs consciousness, some sort of revolt, etc) Not saying it is bad (in enjoy it on some levels, very much so tbh), but i am quite disappointed because i thought it would be much more
I get what you're saying. I had the same qualms about Mr. Robot because it drags on for some episodes before picking up its pace again. I'm okay with these setup episodes but I'm really anxious to see something big happening soon to switch gears in terms of pace.
It's not about the pace tbh, i have no probem with slow pace at all. I just need to have the feeling that SOMETHING meaningful happens, that doesn't need to be plot tbh. In Westworld it's mostly mystery atm, a little bit of "character development" in the hosts and some pretty uninteresting "quests". I simply don't feel that the story would need ten hours to tell, and if you wanna do it in ten you really need to step up the inspection of the themes like memory, consciousness, etc. I know that sounds very negative, but at the end of the day i still watch every week and think it's a good show. It's simply not the masterpiece i expected tbh
On October 29 2016 04:52 Sterlymobile wrote: Another possible clue could be Dolores repeating that the pain she felt was apart of her. Just like what Bernard said to his wife regarding his kid. Seems like something Ford would say.
Edit: also I wonder if William's friend switching out his gun will do anything, since people were talking about gun specs
Ive been wondering about the gun as well. I think it might just be a video game loot reference. If host and ai guns differ to the point of danger it would just be way too big of a risk.
On October 29 2016 05:02 IgnE wrote: the chronology of the show isn't clear either. scenes are shown back-to-back but that doesn't mean they are chronological. it's really unclear when bernard is even interviewing dolores or doing a lot of the debugging relative to events within westworld
Yeah. Chronology has to be at least a little off because they're clearly not whisking her away in the middle of the night from White-Hat's camp to do diagnostics. That and the part where we've seen multiple cycles in the last 3 episodes, but White-Hat is clearly in a single cycle (and MiB is in a particularly long one right now.)
Edit: The girlfriend also noticed that Bernard is always dressed distinctively when doing the "dream" interviews, even if he hasn't been in preceding scenes. I can't vouch for that, but she's pretty sure they are literally Dolores' dreams.
How about memories manifesting as dreams? Bernard always asks her if she knows where she is and the reply is "In a dream", which fits if it's a memory of a past event as well.
Another option could be that it is indeed a dream representation of Bernard interfacing with her digitally rather than in person? Not entirely clear how capable of doing that they are but it seems weird to have to everything in person.
On October 28 2016 02:13 IgnE wrote: yeah the maze seems to be a place with no rules given the dialogue in the last episode
and the bernard as host theory seems plausible
What is the point of a place with no rules if it's only for the AI bots and not the guests? I still feel like it's some kind of consciousness test related to Arnold tho that's a bit of personal bias because I like the idea
I just feel like MiB is chasing this place that he expects to be one thing, then when he gets there it will be something completely different and just spit him out. Think Guy Pierce's character in Prometheus when he finally meets the engineer.
I mean I think it's a place of no rules for bots or guests. I think it's a place where humans can be killed.
That actually dovetails with your theory. If it's a consciousness test, the very site where hosts become human, it's a place where organic and synthetic humans are put on equal footing.
As it appears Westworld has harder missions and harder modes where guests can be hurt, I wonder if there is a way to GG and get out before things get too serious.
I feel that the plausibility of the world is slipping as the stories get more intricate though. I get that a character like Dolores has a loop where she just goes out and then comes back home if nothing happens, so she doesn't need daily maintenance. But do these crazy maze-related stories just go unresolved if nobody interacts with them, as is almost always the case?
Lol I was just about to say it seems one timeline is indefensible. Two is too few as well.
As in, the scenes are clearly not presented in chronological order. This episode was mostly in-park though, so probably closer to chronological, but the base scenes are clearly spread out over a much longer timescale than the in-park scenes, which appear to be set over the length of a single park cycle (week? fortnight? month?). Though, again, we know the MiB is currently in a different cycle than Dolores due to him killing people who are still alive in her universe.
The "dreams" are as-yet unknown in how they fit into the cycles, though this episode strongly suggested they are perceived as dreams non-chronologically (that it, there was no way for Dolores to have had that conversation in chronological sequence, and yet she appeared to react to it that way).
I mean sure i am not saying that every scene is in order, especially the interrogation scenes are hard to justify that way. But "two timelines" as in the MiB is one of the two young guys we follow? Nah no way.
edit: to say it differently: In the end it won't matter at all and all the time you invest in trying to figure out the right chronology will be wasted. The only thing of importantance is Arnold and what happened there exactly
i would like to see the show explain more guest vs. guest interactions (can guests kill each other?)
and, host's maximum ability to hurt guests, as you saw Logan get punched by 2 soldiers - maybe enough punches can kill?
and finally, i'd like them to explain where the hell is the actual location - if it's an actual themepark, how big of a space is it, how is it connected to the facility, how do they manage to pickup all the hosts at night and transport them for testing / healing
It's also confusing how guests seem to stay there 24/7 - what about their food needs? is there actual food in the park? do they actually sleep, shit, all in the park?
On November 01 2016 15:00 parkufarku wrote: i would like to see the show explain more guest vs. guest interactions (can guests kill each other?)
and, host's maximum ability to hurt guests, as you saw Logan get punched by 2 soldiers - maybe enough punches can kill?
and finally, i'd like them to explain where the hell is the actual location - if it's an actual themepark, how big of a space is it, how is it connected to the facility, how do they manage to pickup all the hosts at night and transport them for testing / healing
It's also confusing how guests seem to stay there 24/7 - what about their food needs? is there actual food in the park? do they actually sleep, shit, all in the park?
The guests can definitely kill each other, I would guess that hosts will generally stop guests from brandishing any weapon besides their gun, although they don't seem to stop guests who push or grab each other. It's not clear what the hosts would do if a guest was accidentally hurt, like twisting an ankle when running or falling off a horse.
I think the show has alluded to some kind of monorail taking them to the park, so I would guess several square kilometers. For reference, Disneyland is .344 km2 and there seem to be far fewer people at Westworld, although it also seems that the vast majority of the park goes unused.
The last questions are really good. I actually wonder if time is accelerated there because the guests are never shown going to sleep. A real day might be a week in Westworld because the sun rises and sets every 2 hours or something. Food is a curious question since the guests so far have only been shown drinking, mostly liquor but sometimes water.
I think the idea is to make it as safe as possible for the guests (guns hit them like BBs, probably whether or not a host fired them), but a guest could probably kill another guest with a knife, if no host is around to stop them (like Teddy stopped MiB). Maybe they're programmed to avoid guests being off on their own too much.
I'm assuming days/nights are realistic, as are needs like food/water and it's just handled as it was in the Old West, except maybe with flush toilets. The immersion seems to be key to the experience and it would be weird for them to be breaking it.
Size of the park is a good question. It's hard to know for sure at this point, but it seems massive. The resources of the society that built it must be unbelievable. I'm personally curious what exactly the boundary is. Wall? Invisible fence? Canyon? Raging river? Mountains?
My logistical question is about the hosts. Ep1 referenced 10% of the population as 200 hosts... but Pariah appears to be on a scale to require more than that alone, never mind the rest of the world. And if there's a "war" of any scale going on elsewhere, that exacerbates the problem further.
Edit: From the show website's "liability waiver:"
The following causes of accidental death have occurred within the Delos Destinations compound: buffalo stampede, self- cannibalism, accidental hanging, drowning, 3rd-degree burns, autoerotic asphyxiation, blunt force trauma, allergic reaction to non-native plant life, falling from great heights, common manslaughter, tumbleweeds.
Which suggests a park diameter of 18km, which is fucking huge. Note that the version on the site has links floating above it for points of interest like the towns and ranches.
On October 31 2016 22:30 Yoav wrote: Lol I was just about to say it seems one timeline is indefensible. Two is too few as well.
As in, the scenes are clearly not presented in chronological order. This episode was mostly in-park though, so probably closer to chronological, but the base scenes are clearly spread out over a much longer timescale than the in-park scenes, which appear to be set over the length of a single park cycle (week? fortnight? month?). Though, again, we know the MiB is currently in a different cycle than Dolores due to him killing people who are still alive in her universe.
The "dreams" are as-yet unknown in how they fit into the cycles, though this episode strongly suggested they are perceived as dreams non-chronologically (that it, there was no way for Dolores to have had that conversation in chronological sequence, and yet she appeared to react to it that way).
Multiple timelines seem obvious at this point, I got to agree. The people around the Man in Black and William are both confronted with different Westworld Logos, they witness slight deviations in how loops start and they never actually hear from each other.
The question remains how far apart these timelines actually are (and how many there are). I would argue it cannot be more than a few days/weeks/months, maybe a year, because the Man in Black and William/Logan meet the same kind of hosts. And we know that the Hosts in the past have been more mechanical than "today".
Plus, we can assume that the Man in Black is in Westworld before William/Logan are, because Dolores remembers being raped by the Man in Black when she shoots someone for the first time.
On October 31 2016 22:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: I mean sure i am not saying that every scene is in order, especially the interrogation scenes are hard to justify that way. But "two timelines" as in the MiB is one of the two young guys we follow? Nah no way.
edit: to say it differently: In the end it won't matter at all and all the time you invest in trying to figure out the right chronology will be wasted. The only thing of importantance is Arnold and what happened there exactly
Well, fact remains that the creators tried quite hard to not make it too obvious that there are multiple timelines (at least up until episode 5. Now it is more than obvious due to the happenings surrounding Lawrence). If it just didn't matter, they could just have told us by giving a date of arrival. The fact that they didn't do that kind of hints that it actually does matter, imo.
On November 01 2016 15:00 parkufarku wrote: It's also confusing how guests seem to stay there 24/7 - what about their food needs? is there actual food in the park? do they actually sleep, shit, all in the park?
There have been scenes where people were eating and clearly waking up or going to sleep. Not gonna even comment on the shitting part.
The comments here and the subreddit are all about the small details and wacky theories. It feels like the story, characters and overall feel of the show is second to all this craziness surrounding it.
My crazy theory is that the maze is a role reversal, that Dolores is now the guest and the humans around her are the hosts. The robots who accompany humans into the maze become the central actors of the story rather than creating the context of the story like usual, also liberating them from their infinite loops. Dolores is no longer a hapless rape victim and Teddy is no longer the tragically doomed gunslinger.
I think the diagnostics are at the end of this journey after having memories and experiences of creating a new story and asking them if they can go back to being props again in an infinite loop. They ironically face the same choice that every human guest faces when they leave the park and go back to their mundane lives.
So.. I'm sorry this is lazy post but IS IT ANY GOOD? Can anyone tell at this point? A few episodes are out now. Should I watch it if I like GoT and all kinds of scifi space operas but find westerns kinda meh? The cast is pretty insane at least. And there are boobz?
I get that a character like Dolores has a loop where she just goes out and then comes back home if nothing happens, so she doesn't need daily maintenance. But do these crazy maze-related stories just go unresolved if nobody interacts with them, as is almost always the case?
All the story lines have end games like Dolores and her family getting slaughtered at night at their house on a regular basis and then resetting. The MIB makes it seem like the maze related story is really hidden deep and resolves in non-maze related ways without guest interactions.
It seems that MIB got his life time pass by killing Arnold, or at least helping stop him from destroying the park. My guess is that the maze is somewhere that Ford has no control over the androids because of actions of Arnold.
From a strictly "realistic" standpoint the most unrealistic part of the show is the economy of developing and maintaining this park and paying for it. It's hard to see any way that it could ever turn a profit or even see the funding to be completed in the first place. The guests make it seem that these androids are not a part of life outside of the park, where they realistically would be used for all sorts of more profitable jobs with the only limitation on what job they could take over being how much the android costs vs paying a real person. And most of those jobs wouldn't require rebuilding them on a consistent basis.
^ what? If anything, it's difficult to see the park not making a profit. Each guest pays $40,000 a day. I dont know who has that kind of money except millionaires, but if you're getting that much from 1 person, imagine how much you would earn per day.
Didn't Logan mention the company behind it hemorrhaging money?
When I saw 2nd lawrence I actually thought they just had multiples of the same android... but timelines make more sense.
I cant remember but when dolores got asked about her last contact with arnold, what number did she say? Because MiB always says hes been coming for 30 years right?
So possibly the difference could be the answer to how far apart they are.
On November 01 2016 21:54 d00p wrote: So.. I'm sorry this is lazy post but IS IT ANY GOOD? Can anyone tell at this point? A few episodes are out now. Should I watch it if I like GoT and all kinds of scifi space operas but find westerns kinda meh? The cast is pretty insane at least. And there are boobz?
The western aspect is only a setting, and rarely the true theme. The show does an amazing job of creating essentially two completely distinct environments that both look and feel organic and real...but it also never lets you forget that one isn't "real", maybe the other one isn't either in some sense of the word, and what the fuck is real anyway? These are the questions the show raises.
On November 01 2016 21:54 d00p wrote: So.. I'm sorry this is lazy post but IS IT ANY GOOD? Can anyone tell at this point? A few episodes are out now. Should I watch it if I like GoT and all kinds of scifi space operas but find westerns kinda meh? The cast is pretty insane at least. And there are boobz?
The show is good but might think it is smarter than it really is. As a sci if western, it is not as good as Cowboy Bebop but it isn't too far off. It does have an outrageously talented cast so the acting is fantastic. The visuals are also great.
There are boobs. Thandie Newton has nipples that were perfected to help babies latch and they will make you want to be breast fed by her.
I would totally recommend it in the slow tv season and as a post-GoT future for HBO. The themes are illusion vs reality and flexing the lines of what makes us human (memory, emotions, etc).
I think it's definitely worth the watch. You'll get more out of it the more you have a grounding in philosophy/religion, but the acting is a great draw even if that's not your speed. As for the puzzle part of it, I think you can't really say with these things until you get to the payoff... it's certainly not why I'm watching the show.
But the show's closest analogues aren't really Westerns. The most directly comparable (down to individual characters) is Dollhouse, though it definitely shares DNA with Blade Runner, BSG, T:SCC.
On November 02 2016 13:49 Yoav wrote: I think it's definitely worth the watch. You'll get more out of it the more you have a grounding in philosophy/religion, but the acting is a great draw even if that's not your speed. As for the puzzle part of it, I think you can't really say with these things until you get to the payoff... it's certainly not why I'm watching the show.
But the show's closest analogues aren't really Westerns. The most directly comparable (down to individual characters) is Dollhouse, though it definitely shares DNA with Blade Runner, BSG, T:SCC.
Agreed, this reminded me so much of dollhouse from the first episode.
On November 01 2016 21:54 d00p wrote: So.. I'm sorry this is lazy post but IS IT ANY GOOD? Can anyone tell at this point? A few episodes are out now. Should I watch it if I like GoT and all kinds of scifi space operas but find westerns kinda meh? The cast is pretty insane at least. And there are boobz?
It's not good. It just tries to be edgy with gore and blood, which is supposed to be "so shocking" and "oh my god is this real life". Around episode three I started scrolling the play bar on my VLC media player to skip over boring as F dialogue. By episode four I watched it in about twenty minutes. Not going to bother downloading episode five.
On November 01 2016 21:54 d00p wrote: So.. I'm sorry this is lazy post but IS IT ANY GOOD? Can anyone tell at this point? A few episodes are out now. Should I watch it if I like GoT and all kinds of scifi space operas but find westerns kinda meh? The cast is pretty insane at least. And there are boobz?
It's not good. It just tries to be edgy with gore and blood, which is supposed to be "so shocking" and "oh my god is this real life". Around episode three I started scrolling the play bar on my VLC media player to skip over boring as F dialogue. By episode four I watched it in about twenty minutes. Not going to bother downloading episode five.
Idk I really enjoy it. I suggest watching first couple episodes and decide for yourself. It is getting more and more trippy every week and you don't know what will happen next. There will always be haters I guess.
On November 01 2016 21:54 d00p wrote: So.. I'm sorry this is lazy post but IS IT ANY GOOD? Can anyone tell at this point? A few episodes are out now. Should I watch it if I like GoT and all kinds of scifi space operas but find westerns kinda meh? The cast is pretty insane at least. And there are boobz?
It's not good. It just tries to be edgy with gore and blood, which is supposed to be "so shocking" and "oh my god is this real life". Around episode three I started scrolling the play bar on my VLC media player to skip over boring as F dialogue. By episode four I watched it in about twenty minutes. Not going to bother downloading episode five.
Idk I really enjoy it. I suggest watching first couple episodes and decide for yourself. It is getting more and more trippy every week and you don't know what will happen next. There will always be haters I guess.
Yeah I guess I'm just gonna go for it and see for myself. I don't particularly enjoy gore though. But this is life-like robo-gore.
Feeling more and more like it's VR with robots plugged into it or something, the way Dolores gets instantly pulled out, and models are uploaded straight back into service (Lawrence). They seriously need to explain how it works at some point.
I heard that the showrunners have already planned the series to last for 4-5 seasons and then it will end so they know the timeframe they are working with. I hope it will be like the Wire where the ending was absolutely perfect with no loose ends left.
I love reading about this show because there are so many tiny details that make me appreciate it more. Right now it has set the bar really high on expectations for the last few episodes and I think it will decide if lots of people continue to watch it... The whole thing has been set up without hurry and now we're just watching for the keg to explode.
The show has proven it's smart and people are going crazy analyzing every piece of it so it better cash in later plot-wise.
On November 03 2016 00:11 Scarecrow wrote: Feeling more and more like it's VR with robots plugged into it or something, the way Dolores gets instantly pulled out, and models are uploaded straight back into service (Lawrence). They seriously need to explain how it works at some point.
Well, I thought that was the same Lawrence bot too but the prevailing theory seems to be that MiB storyline and Dolores' storyline are separated by some time, and we are jumping back and forth chronologically.
I kind of disliked the last episode btw, in general the more time spent in the park and the less time spent with the programmers/executives the less I enjoy it...
I cant remember but when dolores got asked about her last contact with arnold, what number did she say?
34 years, 42 days, 7 hours
So that's a possible number on how far apart the storylines potentially are then... Would make sense, as I thought a couple of times that the park we see when following Logan/William seems a bit more populated than during the MiB scenes.
On November 03 2016 00:11 Scarecrow wrote: Feeling more and more like it's VR with robots plugged into it or something, the way Dolores gets instantly pulled out, and models are uploaded straight back into service (Lawrence). They seriously need to explain how it works at some point.
Well, I thought that was the same Lawrence bot too but the prevailing theory seems to be that MiB storyline and Dolores' storyline are separated by some time, and we are jumping back and forth chronologically.
I kind of disliked the last episode btw, in general the more time spent in the park and the less time spent with the programmers/executives the less I enjoy it...
I cant remember but when dolores got asked about her last contact with arnold, what number did she say?
34 years, 42 days, 7 hours
So that's a possible number on how far apart the storylines potentially are then... Would make sense, as I thought a couple of times that the park we see when following Logan/William seems a bit more populated than during the MiB scenes.
The MIB storyline takes place at the same time, when he meets Ford he tells him that "the man he would ask" (about the moral of the story) died 35 years ago.
On November 03 2016 00:11 Scarecrow wrote: Feeling more and more like it's VR with robots plugged into it or something, the way Dolores gets instantly pulled out, and models are uploaded straight back into service (Lawrence). They seriously need to explain how it works at some point.
Well, I thought that was the same Lawrence bot too but the prevailing theory seems to be that MiB storyline and Dolores' storyline are separated by some time, and we are jumping back and forth chronologically.
I kind of disliked the last episode btw, in general the more time spent in the park and the less time spent with the programmers/executives the less I enjoy it...
On November 02 2016 03:05 nukem1 wrote:
On November 02 2016 02:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I cant remember but when dolores got asked about her last contact with arnold, what number did she say?
34 years, 42 days, 7 hours
So that's a possible number on how far apart the storylines potentially are then... Would make sense, as I thought a couple of times that the park we see when following Logan/William seems a bit more populated than during the MiB scenes.
The MIB storyline takes place at the same time, when he meets Ford he tells him that "the man he would ask" (about the moral of the story) died 35 years ago.
Hm interesting, I forgot about that. So what does that mean for Lawrence?
While watching I thought it meant there could be multiples of a model, then went on here and was reminded of dual timeline theories.
On November 03 2016 00:11 Scarecrow wrote: Feeling more and more like it's VR with robots plugged into it or something, the way Dolores gets instantly pulled out, and models are uploaded straight back into service (Lawrence). They seriously need to explain how it works at some point.
Well, I thought that was the same Lawrence bot too but the prevailing theory seems to be that MiB storyline and Dolores' storyline are separated by some time, and we are jumping back and forth chronologically.
I kind of disliked the last episode btw, in general the more time spent in the park and the less time spent with the programmers/executives the less I enjoy it...
On November 02 2016 03:05 nukem1 wrote:
On November 02 2016 02:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I cant remember but when dolores got asked about her last contact with arnold, what number did she say?
34 years, 42 days, 7 hours
So that's a possible number on how far apart the storylines potentially are then... Would make sense, as I thought a couple of times that the park we see when following Logan/William seems a bit more populated than during the MiB scenes.
The MIB storyline takes place at the same time, when he meets Ford he tells him that "the man he would ask" (about the moral of the story) died 35 years ago.
Hm interesting, I forgot about that. So what does that mean for Lawrence?
While watching I thought it meant there could be multiples of a model, then went on here and was reminded of dual timeline theories.
It means that the William/Logan story plays before the Man in Black Story. The Man in Black arrived in the park in the present, William/Logan however in the past. Which is, imo, pretty much proven by the logo (MiB plot has a different Westworld Logo than the William Plot) and the Lawrence-plot.
(Remember that the Dolores-Questionings cannot possibly be chronological, because she has been with William the entire time. So the scene, where she was asked about the date she had spoke to Arnold can not be in the same timeframe as the William/Logan plot)
This would make sense, tbh. The question remains how far apart the two timelines actually are. We know for sure that it cannot be too far apart -> The Control Room (incl. the workers) looks the same when discussing William/Logan as when discussing the Man in Black. There could still be a few months or maybe a couple of years in between - but most definitely not more.
-> Dolores remembers the man in Black right before she kills someone and runs to William. (we know that the MiB has been to the park on a regular basis for 30 years, therefore it is entirely possible that Dolores gets raped by the MiB somewhere further in the past, then meets William somewhat closer to the present but still in the past and the story surrounding MiB is the actual present)
I don't understand why choice and free will must always be expressed in the AI resolving to violence. The last couple of episodes really echo the movie I, Robot in which the sentient and self-aware robot killed its creator. While this was not necessarily an act of deliberate harm, it is the expression of an action against set protocols. As with Asimovs 3 laws, Westworld makes the guest safety protocol pretty clear - hosts cannot harm real people. So if the resolution of the Arnold mystery really is Dolores, or another host, killing him to prove self awareness and free will, I will really feel that this is the only way writers can go about this - violence. We already saw Dolores resolve to violence as a personal choice in the last episode, but I hope there's more to it in the end.
On November 03 2016 00:11 Scarecrow wrote: Feeling more and more like it's VR with robots plugged into it or something, the way Dolores gets instantly pulled out, and models are uploaded straight back into service (Lawrence). They seriously need to explain how it works at some point.
Yeah the bots' "dreams" being literally "dreams" instead of reality was my first thought as well. Basically there's one Dolores bot, but she's in different VR worlds at the same time.
On November 03 2016 03:40 disciple wrote: I don't understand why choice and free will must always be expressed in the AI resolving to violence. The last couple of episodes really echo the movie I, Robot in which the sentient and self-aware robot killed its creator. While this was not necessarily an act of deliberate harm, it is the expression of an action against set protocols. As with Asimovs 3 laws, Westworld makes the guest safety protocol pretty clear - hosts cannot harm real people. So if the resolution of the Arnold mystery really is Dolores, or another host, killing him to prove self awareness and free will, I will really feel that this is the only way writers can go about this - violence. We already saw Dolores resolve to violence as a personal choice in the last episode, but I hope there's more to it in the end.
Good point. I guess, another support for this method is that, robots are enslaved by humans, and know that humans will not freely let them go free or they realize the dangers that humans may present upon realisation of that fact. Or something along those lines.
In most other films, this happens because AI and robots aim to create 'efficient' lifeforms and work methods of their world, and humans are inefficient and drain resources like parasites, so they are able to achieve optimum efficiency by ridding the humans.
On November 03 2016 03:40 disciple wrote: I don't understand why choice and free will must always be expressed in the AI resolving to violence. The last couple of episodes really echo the movie I, Robot in which the sentient and self-aware robot killed its creator. While this was not necessarily an act of deliberate harm, it is the expression of an action against set protocols. As with Asimovs 3 laws, Westworld makes the guest safety protocol pretty clear - hosts cannot harm real people. So if the resolution of the Arnold mystery really is Dolores, or another host, killing him to prove self awareness and free will, I will really feel that this is the only way writers can go about this - violence. We already saw Dolores resolve to violence as a personal choice in the last episode, but I hope there's more to it in the end.
Good point. I guess, another support for this method is that, robots are enslaved by humans, and know that humans will not freely let them go free or they realize the dangers that humans may present upon realisation of that fact. Or something along those lines.
In most other films, this happens because AI and robots aim to create 'efficient' lifeforms and work methods of their world, and humans are inefficient and drain resources like parasites, so they are able to achieve optimum efficiency by ridding the humans.
I get the slave/master aspect, but in the I,Robot instance, the homicide wasn't an act of harm and I feel Westworld might be doing the exact same thing with Dolores. I feel thats the reason why the arc of Maeve is taking place. Maeve is going toward the contrast and more predictable revenge driven violence, opposed to what the role of Dolores is probably going to be. Maeve will embody all fears with AI becoming sentient, the slave/master rebellion while Dolores will likely find herself in the same situation with Arnold as the robot from I,Robot.
I was initially hoping for more of a blade runner story where the hosts will simply realize the mundane and monotone nature of their existence and try to escape from it, as opposed to being like we the superior being or whatever, kill all masters.
On November 03 2016 00:11 Scarecrow wrote: Feeling more and more like it's VR with robots plugged into it or something, the way Dolores gets instantly pulled out, and models are uploaded straight back into service (Lawrence). They seriously need to explain how it works at some point.
Well, I thought that was the same Lawrence bot too but the prevailing theory seems to be that MiB storyline and Dolores' storyline are separated by some time, and we are jumping back and forth chronologically.
I kind of disliked the last episode btw, in general the more time spent in the park and the less time spent with the programmers/executives the less I enjoy it...
On November 02 2016 03:05 nukem1 wrote:
On November 02 2016 02:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I cant remember but when dolores got asked about her last contact with arnold, what number did she say?
34 years, 42 days, 7 hours
So that's a possible number on how far apart the storylines potentially are then... Would make sense, as I thought a couple of times that the park we see when following Logan/William seems a bit more populated than during the MiB scenes.
The MIB storyline takes place at the same time, when he meets Ford he tells him that "the man he would ask" (about the moral of the story) died 35 years ago.
Hm interesting, I forgot about that. So what does that mean for Lawrence?
While watching I thought it meant there could be multiples of a model, then went on here and was reminded of dual timeline theories.
It means that the William/Logan story plays before the Man in Black Story. The Man in Black arrived in the park in the present, William/Logan however in the past. Which is, imo, pretty much proven by the logo (MiB plot has a different Westworld Logo than the William Plot) and the Lawrence-plot.
(Remember that the Dolores-Questionings cannot possibly be chronological, because she has been with William the entire time. So the scene, where she was asked about the date she had spoke to Arnold can not be in the same timeframe as the William/Logan plot)
This would make sense, tbh. The question remains how far apart the two timelines actually are. We know for sure that it cannot be too far apart -> The Control Room (incl. the workers) looks the same when discussing William/Logan as when discussing the Man in Black. There could still be a few months or maybe a couple of years in between - but most definitely not more.
-> Dolores remembers the man in Black right before she kills someone and runs to William. (we know that the MiB has been to the park on a regular basis for 30 years, therefore it is entirely possible that Dolores gets raped by the MiB somewhere further in the past, then meets William somewhat closer to the present but still in the past and the story surrounding MiB is the actual present)
Ok let's pretend this is true, what is the purpose of the different timelines in this case?
On November 03 2016 00:11 Scarecrow wrote: Feeling more and more like it's VR with robots plugged into it or something, the way Dolores gets instantly pulled out, and models are uploaded straight back into service (Lawrence). They seriously need to explain how it works at some point.
Well, I thought that was the same Lawrence bot too but the prevailing theory seems to be that MiB storyline and Dolores' storyline are separated by some time, and we are jumping back and forth chronologically.
I kind of disliked the last episode btw, in general the more time spent in the park and the less time spent with the programmers/executives the less I enjoy it...
On November 02 2016 03:05 nukem1 wrote:
On November 02 2016 02:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I cant remember but when dolores got asked about her last contact with arnold, what number did she say?
34 years, 42 days, 7 hours
So that's a possible number on how far apart the storylines potentially are then... Would make sense, as I thought a couple of times that the park we see when following Logan/William seems a bit more populated than during the MiB scenes.
The MIB storyline takes place at the same time, when he meets Ford he tells him that "the man he would ask" (about the moral of the story) died 35 years ago.
Hm interesting, I forgot about that. So what does that mean for Lawrence?
While watching I thought it meant there could be multiples of a model, then went on here and was reminded of dual timeline theories.
It means that the William/Logan story plays before the Man in Black Story. The Man in Black arrived in the park in the present, William/Logan however in the past. Which is, imo, pretty much proven by the logo (MiB plot has a different Westworld Logo than the William Plot) and the Lawrence-plot.
(Remember that the Dolores-Questionings cannot possibly be chronological, because she has been with William the entire time. So the scene, where she was asked about the date she had spoke to Arnold can not be in the same timeframe as the William/Logan plot)
This would make sense, tbh. The question remains how far apart the two timelines actually are. We know for sure that it cannot be too far apart -> The Control Room (incl. the workers) looks the same when discussing William/Logan as when discussing the Man in Black. There could still be a few months or maybe a couple of years in between - but most definitely not more.
-> Dolores remembers the man in Black right before she kills someone and runs to William. (we know that the MiB has been to the park on a regular basis for 30 years, therefore it is entirely possible that Dolores gets raped by the MiB somewhere further in the past, then meets William somewhat closer to the present but still in the past and the story surrounding MiB is the actual present)
Ok let's pretend this is true, what is the purpose of the different timelines in this case?
Some event in Timeline A affects Timeline B in a major way without directly interfering with the characters in Timeline B, I'd assume.
Could of course all be wrong, but the different loops, the different logos (Westworld logo + bottle the one host drops early on) and the fact that Lawrence gets killed in one scene and then lives in another one at the other end of the park, just tell me that these events can't play out simultaneously.
On November 03 2016 05:49 disciple wrote: I get the slave/master aspect, but in the I,Robot instance, the homicide wasn't an act of harm and I feel Westworld might be doing the exact same thing with Dolores. I feel thats the reason why the arc of Maeve is taking place. Maeve is going toward the contrast and more predictable revenge driven violence, opposed to what the role of Dolores is probably going to be. Maeve will embody all fears with AI becoming sentient, the slave/master rebellion while Dolores will likely find herself in the same situation with Arnold as the robot from I,Robot.
I actually read this twice in confusion before I remembered the shitty movie version that I'm pretty sure I saw on an airplane and wished I hadn't...
In the actual I, Robot, the robots never harm humans, do eventually take over, and it's a good thing for everyone involved. People are actually quite pleased with robot rule. + Show Spoiler +
On November 03 2016 00:11 Scarecrow wrote: Feeling more and more like it's VR with robots plugged into it or something, the way Dolores gets instantly pulled out, and models are uploaded straight back into service (Lawrence). They seriously need to explain how it works at some point.
Well, I thought that was the same Lawrence bot too but the prevailing theory seems to be that MiB storyline and Dolores' storyline are separated by some time, and we are jumping back and forth chronologically.
I kind of disliked the last episode btw, in general the more time spent in the park and the less time spent with the programmers/executives the less I enjoy it...
On November 02 2016 03:05 nukem1 wrote:
On November 02 2016 02:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I cant remember but when dolores got asked about her last contact with arnold, what number did she say?
34 years, 42 days, 7 hours
So that's a possible number on how far apart the storylines potentially are then... Would make sense, as I thought a couple of times that the park we see when following Logan/William seems a bit more populated than during the MiB scenes.
The MIB storyline takes place at the same time, when he meets Ford he tells him that "the man he would ask" (about the moral of the story) died 35 years ago.
Hm interesting, I forgot about that. So what does that mean for Lawrence?
While watching I thought it meant there could be multiples of a model, then went on here and was reminded of dual timeline theories.
It means that the William/Logan story plays before the Man in Black Story. The Man in Black arrived in the park in the present, William/Logan however in the past. Which is, imo, pretty much proven by the logo (MiB plot has a different Westworld Logo than the William Plot) and the Lawrence-plot.
(Remember that the Dolores-Questionings cannot possibly be chronological, because she has been with William the entire time. So the scene, where she was asked about the date she had spoke to Arnold can not be in the same timeframe as the William/Logan plot)
This would make sense, tbh. The question remains how far apart the two timelines actually are. We know for sure that it cannot be too far apart -> The Control Room (incl. the workers) looks the same when discussing William/Logan as when discussing the Man in Black. There could still be a few months or maybe a couple of years in between - but most definitely not more.
-> Dolores remembers the man in Black right before she kills someone and runs to William. (we know that the MiB has been to the park on a regular basis for 30 years, therefore it is entirely possible that Dolores gets raped by the MiB somewhere further in the past, then meets William somewhat closer to the present but still in the past and the story surrounding MiB is the actual present)
Ok let's pretend this is true, what is the purpose of the different timelines in this case?
Some event in Timeline A affects Timeline B in a major way without directly interfering with the characters in Timeline B, I'd assume.
Could of course all be wrong, but the different loops, the different logos (Westworld logo + bottle the one host drops early on) and the fact that Lawrence gets killed in one scene and then lives in another one at the other end of the park, just tell me that these events can't play out simultaneously.
Look this would make more sense to me if the two timelines would actually be far apart (for the purpose, as you already said it makes no sense plot wise as far as we know) but we can rule that out pretty much. That's weird to me, if for example we would see the timeline which lead to arnold's death etc then there would be a narrative purpose behind all of that. If the timelines are only apart a few years at best what's the point?
About Lawrence: Well the bots die a lot and then get fixed, i don't remember the chronology of the scenes but i would guess that could be it? Atm i think both plot lines happen at about the same time, it's not 100% in chronological order but there isn't more to it than that (like in GoT as well)
here's what I think might be possible -timeline A, with william, logan and dolores, happened ~30 years ago: different logo, the army is recruiting men in sweetwater instead of the sheriff we can see with Teddy, logan talking about one of the partner killed himself before they opened the park as if it was a recent event. In this timeline, we see the first time Dolores tried to help Arnold (in episode 5, Ford ask her if Arnold has been speaking to her _again_, and we see) to destroy the place. -timeline B, with the man in black, happening in the 'present'. Dolores is reviving what happened to her in timeline A but is alone (which could explain why we see her all the time with Bernard or Ford, it would be really hard to do if she was with william). This is in this timeline she remembers the rape of the MiB
MiB would be either william or logan. in the last episode, logan talks about how the park is losing money, and in the same episode, MiB tells how he pretty much saved the park after Arnold's death.
I'm sure I'm missing some stuff, and I'm not saying that's 100% sure, but I do think it's a possibility
Oh, I think this is possible. Taking it one step further, is it possible that William IS the MiB, having fallen in love with Westworld from timeline A but having grown so jaded by timeline B that he's gone from cooperating with Dolores to actually raping her?
It fits that in timeline A, William is recently promoted at his office, but by timeline B, he's an established business leader.
By the way, for you Sunny fans, I can't get over that I'm cheering for Liam McPoyle:
The MiB kills her old dad and the new dad is dead when she returns from town after hearing Teddy's gone after Wyatt in ep.3. She even has flashbacks of the MiB, before she shoots a rapey bandit in the barn and runs off towards William's campfire. This timeline stuff makes no sense, especially considering how long the MiB has been at the park. The timelines are either pretty close or running parallel. The 'whole violent delights have violent ends' thing she shared with the black madam was also from her dad (part of the MiB's recent timeline), who is gone in her present. It all seems pretty chronological and current to me.
On November 03 2016 13:14 Yhamm wrote: here's what I think might be possible -timeline A, with william, logan and dolores, happened ~30 years ago: different logo, the army is recruiting men in sweetwater instead of the sheriff we can see with Teddy, logan talking about one of the partner killed himself before they opened the park as if it was a recent event. In this timeline, we see the first time Dolores tried to help Arnold (in episode 5, Ford ask her if Arnold has been speaking to her _again_, and we see) to destroy the place. -timeline B, with the man in black, happening in the 'present'. Dolores is reviving what happened to her in timeline A but is alone (which could explain why we see her all the time with Bernard or Ford, it would be really hard to do if she was with william). This is in this timeline she remembers the rape of the MiB
MiB would be either william or logan. in the last episode, logan talks about how the park is losing money, and in the same episode, MiB tells how he pretty much saved the park after Arnold's death.
I'm sure I'm missing some stuff, and I'm not saying that's 100% sure, but I do think it's a possibility
Ok look i think this would make narrative sense if it would be possible. There would actually be purpose to do the timeline stuff. I agree with Scarecrow though that it doesn't seem to make sense from what we have seen so far (maybe i missed some things though, i didn't watch every scene with 100% focus tbh)
So yeah, narrative purpose would be there, but as far as i can tell it makes no sense from what we have seen so far.
On November 03 2016 23:25 Scarecrow wrote: The MiB kills her old dad and the new dad says goodbye as she heads to town and meets william. She even has flashbacks of the MiB raping her, before she shoots a bandit in the barn and runs off towards William's campfire. This timeline stuff makes no sense, especially considering how long the MiB has been at the park. They are either pretty close or running parallel
Dolores having flashback is in TL B, when she arrives at William's camp, it's her previous story in TL A
There's the common belief that in episode 5, when we see her all alone with either people around her suddenly appearing (cemetery) or disappearing (in the train), Dolores is cutting off the reality when talking to Arnold and doesn't realize that there are people around her. But it could also mean that those are 2 different moment: she is all alone in TL B, going to the same places she went in TL A. It could explain why she is alone in the train without Lawrence since he was with the MiB. Now, being alone and out of her loop would be weird, but maybe Ford let her run to learn about what Arnold did to her exactly?
On November 03 2016 23:25 Scarecrow wrote: The MiB kills her old dad and the new dad says goodbye as she heads to town and meets william. She even has flashbacks of the MiB raping her, before she shoots a bandit in the barn and runs off towards William's campfire. This timeline stuff makes no sense, especially considering how long the MiB has been at the park. They are either pretty close or running parallel
Dolores having flashback is in TL B, when she arrives at William's camp, it's her previous story in TL A
So they had her new dad dead on the ground, a flashback to her old dad and a flashback to the MiB rape. The gun she used was also tied to another MiB flashback earlier in the episode. Then she shot the bandit, ran outside with the gun and rode away from the farm on a white horse? Then she arrived at the camp, with the same horse, same outfit and in a similar state of distress, in completely separate timelines but 3 minutes apart in the episode? If you're right the dolores that ran away in the mib timeline has just disappeared from the Westworld side of the plot entirely for the last 2 episodes.
There's also been no discernible difference in the quality of the Dolores model throughout the show (they mentioned she has none of her original parts), and considering the upgrades and how they've all been becoming more realistic. It'd be incredibly shitty show-making to have her be so high quality with william, then be the same with him decades later as the mib.
I'll change my ID to Yhammgod and quit the show if they're substantially different timelines.
When MiB first went to the park, the hosts were mechanical robots, and did not have to rely on blood/a circulatory system These robots can be seen in the flashback A million perfect little pieces No blood to be seen The hosts of William/Logans timeline Are clearly not robots from the flashback Blood circulates through them, like Teddy They are flesh and bone, just like us.
I would have to recheck, but have William and Logan been interacting with other robots that have had the awareness problem?
I would still consider it mind blowing if the two timelines is how this ends, because I think the show is moving towards a major confrontation between Dolores and William vs Teddy and MiB. William could represent a new breed of fan rather than a younger version of the MiB, which has also been thematic so far (albeit the show hasn't done much with it the last two episodes).
When MiB first went to the park, the hosts were mechanical robots, and did not have to rely on blood/a circulatory system These robots can be seen in the flashback A million perfect little pieces No blood to be seen The hosts of William/Logans timeline Are clearly not robots from the flashback Blood circulates through them, like Teddy They are flesh and bone, just like us.
Yeah, I had the same thought when I first heard about the multiple timelines theory. The explanation regarding the evolution of the robots doesn't preclude the theory, but it certainly makes the theory much harder to reconcile.
I have been watching it whenever new episodes came out, i have to say that i think this show is like one of those "what you see is what you get" show, the first 2 episodes were perfect, and then the rest really gives you some 'Lost' vibe. The loops and cutting in and out different period of time etc, we will see how will they pan out, because so far nothing much is showed.
William = young MiB can be interesting, ie 2 different timelines in the show. But then i remember the security said "this gentleman gets whatever he wants" when MiB killed all lawrence's family = he is in the same employees timeline as william is in. And that we are constantly seeing hopkins keep talking to the robot-like host (ie the old hosts) reminds us that the hosts we see with William/MiB are not like those old robotic hosts ie they are in the same/similar timeline.
I'm not so sure how popular my theory will be, but I think the MiB is not William, but rather an outside investor related to the disappearance/death of Arnold.
We know that the MiB is responsible for saving the park 30 years ago, which coincides with the supposed death of Arnold. We also know that Dolores was Arnold's last resort, so to speak, of destroying the park. We assume that the park was failing due to money issues, but its never explicitly mentioned that money was the only problem the park had. But how does the MiB know about the maze in the first place? The timeline theory clearly explains this; William figures this out from Dolores. I think the key to figuring out who the MiB is by firstly figuring out how the MiB knows about the maze.
I believe that the MiB is either 1) a key investor who is obsessed with Arnold's maze, finding it, and destroying it before it ruins his investment , or 2) the MiB is Arnold himself, but his memory has been altered (perhaps reprogrammed maybe?) in order to prevent him from destroying the park and one of the only memories he has is of this Maze, except he doesn't know what/where is the maze.
On November 05 2016 12:17 Hexe wrote: I don't like the different timelines and intense focus on mystery. I would like it more if it was more straightforward.
You could definitely argue that doing this is usually a gimmick to cover the fact that no individual story line or timeline is compelling enough to carry the story. It's also kinda overdone with a lot of series doing it.
He produces a lot of fun content in general, this was no exception, very cool.
Oh yeah i agree. Makes you appreciate the little details more / notice it on your own. Hopkins is a master of his art, very cool to watch it. His acting is one of the reasons why Ford as a characer works so well in Westworld.
I'm fascinated that Maev has ended up more as the robot protagonist so far than Dolores, despite Dolores' top billing and primary spot in the pilot. Bernard as the human protagonist is expected, of course. Interesting episode, though the lack of in-park content slowed it down a bit.
On November 07 2016 12:25 Yoav wrote: I'm fascinated that Maev has ended up more as the robot protagonist so far than Dolores, despite Dolores' top billing and primary spot in the pilot. Bernard as the human protagonist is expected, of course. Interesting episode, though the lack of in-park content slowed it down a bit.
Trust me, it's just their token nod to having a strong black lead. Kind of like a filler apart from the main plot. It'll be back to Dolores sooner than you think because it's just not sustainable in terms of TV viewership if it continues to be about Maev.
On November 07 2016 12:25 Yoav wrote: I'm fascinated that Maev has ended up more as the robot protagonist so far than Dolores, despite Dolores' top billing and primary spot in the pilot. Bernard as the human protagonist is expected, of course. Interesting episode, though the lack of in-park content slowed it down a bit.
Trust me, it's just their token nod to having a strong black lead. Kind of like a filler apart from the main plot. It'll be back to Dolores sooner than you think because it's just not sustainable in terms of TV viewership if it continues to be about Maev.
They're had six episodes, and Maev was the central character in at least 2, arguably three of them. That's well beyond tokenism. What's wrong with Maev being the lead? I think it would be kinda awesome if Maev and Bernard end up as the leads, from a diversity perspective.
I think the whole Maev and the techs (don't know those guys names) is pretty interesting. I think it's cool how the one was just interested enough that actually talked to her about stuff, and now she's super smart, things are gonna get interesting.
You had to know that Maev was going to be a big deal because Thandie Newton is the third or fourth biggest name in the cast. She's not acting royalty like Anthony Hopkins or Ed Harris, but she's a big deal.
Yeah i feel the theory will be actually a thing which is hugely disappointing because the show had to cheat quite hard to make that work then. Meh Also in the new episode that the two employees are that stupid isn't really top noth storytelling. But hey it gives us new conflicts which is important i guess. Other than that the new episode was quite good, focusing on less characters was a good decision
On November 08 2016 02:50 sertas wrote: what theory?
That william's storyline is in the past and he probably is the MIB. While the show clearly edited some scenes so it wouldn't mae sense it's probably just that to have a bigger wtf moment when it actually is revealed. Personally i think that is cheating and bad storytelling. That it has a narrative purpose is fine but don't do it like westworld apparently did...
And yeah Maeve's storyline was written and developed quite poorly in the last episode, i thought the writers are better than that :/
On November 08 2016 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Bit too much stupidity in this episode to justify various plot developments. ..
Yeah, I don't get why those two clowns who repair the robots have as much as access as they do. Doesn't make any sense.
Should have just kept the shy Asian guy, alone. He could have potentially hacked (or stumbled upon) the robot controls and then got himself too deep. From what we've seen with the bird he seemed interested in tinkering with the programming and he obviously can't really handle Maeve so it would have been plausible. But it makes little sense that the other guy would crumble under Maeve demands just because she threatened him with a scalpel she later dropped. At least they justified it by saying that she has high intuition and could read he was a pussy.
Holy shit, that view of the camp down in the valley in the MiB storyline was so obviously "photoshopped". That's the first time in quite a while I'm so shocked by how bad special effects are in modern TV shows. Inconsistent shadows and lighting, blurriness at the edge of the camp where it was pasted onto the scenary. Road is cut off blurrily by bushes. Perspective/depth inconsistencies too. Maybe scaling errors for all I know. Dreadful...
On November 08 2016 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Bit too much stupidity in this episode to justify various plot developments. ..
Yeah, I don't get why those two clowns who repair the robots have as much as access as they do. Doesn't make any sense.
It makes sense if the target demographic is your average US TV viewer with below average IQ or Asian nerds who can relate to a shy subservient indecisive Asian guy who can't take control of a situation and gets ordered around like a little bitch by employers and dominant woman.
On November 08 2016 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Bit too much stupidity in this episode to justify various plot developments. ..
Yeah, I don't get why those two clowns who repair the robots have as much as access as they do. Doesn't make any sense.
Should have just kept the shy Asian guy, alone. He could have potentially hacked (or stumbled upon) the robot controls and then got himself too deep. From what we've seen with the bird he seemed interested in tinkering with the programming and he obviously can't really handle Maeve so it would have been plausible. But it makes little sense that the other guy would crumble under Maeve demands just because she threatened him with a scalpel she later dropped. At least they justified it by saying that she has high intuition and could read he was a pussy.
Come on, both of them are obviously computer nerds who can't get any. Many nerds in the same situation would react the exact same way, despite how tough they try to come across on boards like 4chan /b/.
What I like about the portrayal in this series is that the inevitable disaster isn't a singular event but a horrible intertwined set of poor decisions and errors. There are a lot of minor conflicts within Westworld and they're all contributing to a bigger problem that all the viewers can patently see but the characters are too trapped in their own issues to prevent or stop it.
But if there's a serious problem with Westworld, it is that the organization apparently has incredibly poor discipline from top to bottom, as people seem quite free to disregard safety rules and have high access with few checks to have profound effects.
I think the end goal might be that Arnold has discovered conscience uploading and is in effect immortal inside a host (or even "somewhere" else in a disembodied form). This blurs the boundaries between humans and androids, which is obviously the first conclusion every viewer will foresee, but adds in something a bit more ambitious and dramatic. This also might link nicely to the MiB, who's apparently sick if I understand correctly. If he learns that immortality is in play somewhere in the middle of "the maze", that could justify his quest.
On November 08 2016 23:53 ZenithM wrote: I think the end goal might be that Arnold has discovered conscience uploading and is in effect immortal inside a host (or even "somewhere" else in a disembodied form). This blurs the boundaries between humans and androids, which is obviously the first conclusion every viewer will foresee, but adds in something a bit more ambitious and dramatic. This also might link nicely to the MiB, who's apparently sick if I understand correctly. If he learns that immortality is in play somewhere in the middle of "the maze", that could justify his quest.
In ep. 5, when Ford asks Dolores about Arnold, she says that the last thing Arnold told her was that she was going to help him destroy the place. That would probably mean that if his consciousness was inside a host or somewhere in the system/programming he would also, most likely, be destroyed.
On November 08 2016 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Bit too much stupidity in this episode to justify various plot developments. ..
Yeah, I don't get why those two clowns who repair the robots have as much as access as they do. Doesn't make any sense.
Should have just kept the shy Asian guy, alone. He could have potentially hacked (or stumbled upon) the robot controls and then got himself too deep. From what we've seen with the bird he seemed interested in tinkering with the programming and he obviously can't really handle Maeve so it would have been plausible. But it makes little sense that the other guy would crumble under Maeve demands just because she threatened him with a scalpel she later dropped. At least they justified it by saying that she has high intuition and could read he was a pussy.
I think this mighr just be me projecting things but I feel as if her storyline is a reference to the weak human link in the chain of any ai containment strategy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_box
On November 08 2016 15:20 palexhur wrote: Maev story in this chapter was just horrible, a big disappointment for me that kind of stupid writing, I am losing interest fast in this series.
Conflicting episode for me. Less time spent in park, good. Everyone behaving like children.... bad
Historians have told that back in ancient times people would think of their own thoughts to be the words of God. This was later disproved and people realized the voices were their own. Maybe "Arnold" talking to them isn't really him but the guests' own consciousness and they're just mistaking the origin.
On November 08 2016 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Bit too much stupidity in this episode to justify various plot developments. ..
Yeah, I don't get why those two clowns who repair the robots have as much as access as they do. Doesn't make any sense.
Should have just kept the shy Asian guy, alone. He could have potentially hacked (or stumbled upon) the robot controls and then got himself too deep. From what we've seen with the bird he seemed interested in tinkering with the programming and he obviously can't really handle Maeve so it would have been plausible. But it makes little sense that the other guy would crumble under Maeve demands just because she threatened him with a scalpel she later dropped. At least they justified it by saying that she has high intuition and could read he was a pussy.
Maeve didn't only threaten him with the scalpel
Felix's colleague Sylvester discovers the secret about Maeve, and nearly turns her in, but instead gets suckered into a partnership with the host. "I can help you or I can gut you like a trout," she tells him, making the choice quite clear. Instead, Maeve cuts Sylvester in on a deal to help him develop his own brothel for Westworld employees. What does she want in exchange? Oh, nothing too over the top…
On November 08 2016 23:53 ZenithM wrote: I think the end goal might be that Arnold has discovered conscience uploading and is in effect immortal inside a host (or even "somewhere" else in a disembodied form). This blurs the boundaries between humans and androids, which is obviously the first conclusion every viewer will foresee, but adds in something a bit more ambitious and dramatic. This also might link nicely to the MiB, who's apparently sick if I understand correctly. If he learns that immortality is in play somewhere in the middle of "the maze", that could justify his quest.
In ep. 5, when Ford asks Dolores about Arnold, she says that the last thing Arnold told her was that she was going to help him destroy the place. That would probably mean that if his consciousness was inside a host or somewhere in the system/programming he would also, most likely, be destroyed.
Maybe he meant "destroy the place" as in "destroy this prison". So freeing the androids by freeing the humans of their bodies too? :D. At this point it's so vague that almost anything with Arnold could happen. But I think no matter what, it will be grand and affect humanity in some way.
On November 09 2016 02:14 herMan wrote: Had a thought regarding the voice of Arnold.
Historians have told that back in ancient times people would think of their own thoughts to be the words of God. This was later disproved and people realized the voices were their own. Maybe "Arnold" talking to them isn't really him but the guests' own consciousness and they're just mistaking the origin.
Wait, this is exactly refered to in the show right? In episode 3, about at 60% in, Ford explains to Bernard that Arnold's own initial theory was based on the bicameral mind (which is exactly what you're describing). He adds that while this fails to explain the human mind (as you said, it was debunked), this is useful to bootstrap AIs. So they introduce the inner voices for ease of programming the hosts.
Assuming there's a season 2, I hope it examines conflicts between newly formed consciences as the robots battle among competing self-interests as well as older generations trying to express themselves in a world against newer generations of control that try to limit such expression (e.g. Dolores wants to wield a knife and all the other robots automatically try to stop her).
As a separate plot question that probably isn't answered yet, how do the robots "die"? Are they given hit points or something so they just fall over when shot or do they actually need to be mortally wounded and rely on some kind of anatomy like humans? So for example, you could have play-acting where a human guest shoots all the robots dead, but if a robot goes haywire and threatens a human guest, the other hosts will bring themselves back to stop it.
I seem to remember an interview with one of the cast members saying that the show was structured to have three or four seasons. Also, taking into account the popularity it has now I think it's safe to assume it will have at least a season 2.
I hope it examines conflicts between newly formed consciences as the robots battle among competing self-interests as well as older generations trying to express themselves in a world against newer generations of control that try to limit such expression (e.g. Dolores wants to wield a knife and all the other robots automatically try to stop her).
It sounds like you just want to see full scale host wars ) I don't see any reason why developing an individual consciousness would lead to hosts becoming aggressive towards each other.
As a separate plot question that probably isn't answered yet, how do the robots "die"? Are they given hit points or something so they just fall over when shot or do they actually need to be mortally wounded and rely on some kind of anatomy like humans?
I think only the older generation hosts can be labeled as "robots", the newer ones look like they are 3D printed by some machine and have some sort of cpu in their head. For me, it seems that their bodies follow human anatomy so if they are shot in a vital organ they die - Teddy almost "died" but was saved by MiB.
So for example, you could have play-acting where a human guest shoots all the robots dead, but if a robot goes haywire and threatens a human guest, the other hosts will bring themselves back to stop it.
The fact that we saw dead hosts being taken on stretchers to the labs would indicated that once the body dies they cannot recover motor functions.
I'll catch up to this thread in a bit, but I wanted to show my support for this show. It's definitely one of my favorite's so far because I feel like this is definitely something that can happen in the future.
I went and read up on the multiple timeline thing. I had picked up on the two different logos, but hadn't really registered it could mean we were time travelling. Particularly, because I fucking hate that kind of shitty editing. It's not clever. It's just doing a shit job at telling a story and covering it up with a gimmick.
On November 08 2016 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Bit too much stupidity in this episode to justify various plot developments. ..
Yeah, I don't get why those two clowns who repair the robots have as much as access as they do. Doesn't make any sense.
they dont, the tablet thing the asian guy use seems to me is like an 'illegal' equipment that he got it from somewhere, because when they work on their normal tasks i dont remember seeing them have it? i started to see that tablet when he was messing with the bird which he is not supposed to.
and ya, i am getting stronger and stronger vibe on the weak story plot but hbo is trying to make it deep/serious (as they always do haha), i just hope we will at least get a nice and well written season1.
Happy to see more of Maeve, i cant stand dolores at all, dolores cant act for anything eventhough i know that they are supposed to be dolls -_-
wow I read the theories about Bernard being a host (and even being Arnold in a host), and I totally believed them (especially with the photo of Ford and "Arnold"), but I didn't expect Ford to be so 'evil' and fuck, does that mean that anyone could be a host now? I thought the producers didn't want to have a "who is a cylon?" like BSG. Ford knew about the blood sacrifice, would that mean that the girl from the board is also one? or just that he can listen to everything in the place?
On November 14 2016 23:01 Yhamm wrote: wow I read the theories about Bernard being a host (and even being Arnold in a host), and I totally believed them (especially with the photo of Ford and "Arnold"), but I didn't expect Ford to be so 'evil' and fuck, does that mean that anyone could be a host now? I thought the producers didn't want to have a "who is a cylon?" like BSG. Ford knew about the blood sacrifice, would that mean that the girl from the board is also one? or just that he can listen to everything in the place?
So far there were a lot of hints of what the board actually tries to achieve with Westworld but I always thought that Ford somehow stands in the way of this. What if that isn't the case at all and Ford is actually actively trying to achieve whatever the board wants (and though it doens'T really matter if that board exists or not) and Arnold was actually trying to stop him doing that?
It could be that Ford killed Arnold but then later realized that he couldn't do "it" without Arnold. That's why recreated Arnold as a Host. However, host Arnold (Bernard) doesn't have the knowledge that real Arnold did. So his whole game is to recreate a real person Arnold within a Host. Besically recreate a whole personality, soul, mind and everything that distincts humans from AI within a host.
Maybe that is what the "maze" ultmately is for. If Dolores and the MiB are actually in Ford's game. I have no clue.
BTW: do I have to use spoiler tags in this thread?
Ugh. I dont mind it from a plot perspective that much, but I was really loving grey area morality Hopkins...
I assume Theresa will still be a character which is really interesting, as my initial thought was that I was sad her character was gone... but she kind of isn't depending on your perspective.
Maybe as someone said above, he has replaced the entire board by hosts 1 by 1.
Maeve storyline continues to make 0 sense to me. They either have the worst security protocols ever or Ford just thinks its fun to torture the lab techs.
On November 14 2016 23:01 Yhamm wrote: wow I read the theories about Bernard being a host (and even being Arnold in a host), and I totally believed them (especially with the photo of Ford and "Arnold"), but I didn't expect Ford to be so 'evil' and fuck, does that mean that anyone could be a host now? I thought the producers didn't want to have a "who is a cylon?" like BSG. Ford knew about the blood sacrifice, would that mean that the girl from the board is also one? or just that he can listen to everything in the place?
Ford would know about the "blood sacrifice" line from Hector (who was tied to the bed), so the board girl isn't necessarily a host.
On November 15 2016 00:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Ugh. I dont mind it from a plot perspective that much, but I was really loving grey area morality Hopkins...
I assume Theresa will still be a character which is really interesting, as my initial thought was that I was sad her character was gone... but she kind of isn't depending on your perspective.
Maybe as someone said above, he has replaced the entire board by hosts 1 by 1.
Maeve storyline continues to make 0 sense to me. They either have the worst security protocols ever or Ford just thinks its fun to torture the lab techs.
Well, the Maeve story makes sense if Felix is a host as well. And after all we know... well... that's entirely possible. Assuming Felix is another "Ford-created-Host", Ford controls everything he does and is therefore able to hide pretty much everything what's happening around him. I'm just wondering where they go from here - if Ford is actually behind everything Felix does, all the events surrounding Maeve were initiated by Ford. And this would imply... well... that Ford has some intentions we don't know about yet.
On November 15 2016 00:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Maeve storyline continues to make 0 sense to me. They either have the worst security protocols ever or Ford just thinks its fun to torture the lab techs.
Did you ever see that Star Trek episode where they randomly find some 20th century humans and one of them is a banker who thinks he's the shit and keeps like wandering onto the bridge and just using all the comm devices to page the captain? And he's like "If this isn't allowed, how come it's so easy to do?" And Picard is like "We have discipline." So the optimistic (benevolent UFP) view is that humans have become more advanced, and no longer does every midshipman think its awesome to troll the captain, even though they could get away with it. The pessimistic (tyrannical UFP) view is that the punishments inflicted upon those who disobey are so terrible that no-one dares break the rules. (A version of this is also seen in that show on a paradisical orgy-planet, where there are like 2 cops on the planet, but if they see you step over a fence, they execute you immediately.)
My guess is that the Westworld-verse explanation is similar... security is lax because it is deemed unimportant. The fear that Rozencrantz feels is because he has always followed the rules due to an understanding of the consequences of breaking them... despite a relatively low chance of getting caught.
On November 15 2016 00:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Ugh. I dont mind it from a plot perspective that much, but I was really loving grey area morality Hopkins...
I assume Theresa will still be a character which is really interesting, as my initial thought was that I was sad her character was gone... but she kind of isn't depending on your perspective.
Maybe as someone said above, he has replaced the entire board by hosts 1 by 1.
Maeve storyline continues to make 0 sense to me. They either have the worst security protocols ever or Ford just thinks its fun to torture the lab techs.
Well, the Maeve story makes sense if Felix is a host as well. And after all we know... well... that's entirely possible. Assuming Felix is another "Ford-created-Host", Ford controls everything he does and is therefore able to hide pretty much everything what's happening around him. I'm just wondering where they go from here - if Ford is actually behind everything Felix does, all the events surrounding Maeve were initiated by Ford. And this would imply... well... that Ford has some intentions we don't know about yet.
On November 15 2016 02:23 malcram wrote: well shit, anthony hopkins is truly terrifying
Which is wonderful. It's a grey-morality world, so all the agonists are villains in some sense or another... Ford, the MiB, and presumably someone on the board at some point. Probably Maev and/or Dolores at some point as well... though they've seemed more justifiable in their actions so far. It will be interesting if we get to see one or the other of them do something awful at some point in here.
On November 15 2016 00:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Ugh. I dont mind it from a plot perspective that much, but I was really loving grey area morality Hopkins...
I assume Theresa will still be a character which is really interesting, as my initial thought was that I was sad her character was gone... but she kind of isn't depending on your perspective.
Maybe as someone said above, he has replaced the entire board by hosts 1 by 1.
Maeve storyline continues to make 0 sense to me. They either have the worst security protocols ever or Ford just thinks its fun to torture the lab techs.
Well, the Maeve story makes sense if Felix is a host as well. And after all we know... well... that's entirely possible. Assuming Felix is another "Ford-created-Host", Ford controls everything he does and is therefore able to hide pretty much everything what's happening around him. I'm just wondering where they go from here - if Ford is actually behind everything Felix does, all the events surrounding Maeve were initiated by Ford. And this would imply... well... that Ford has some intentions we don't know about yet.
Maeve could also be another board attempt at fucking things up and blaming it on the reveries to push Ford out. We already know Maeve was tinkered with before the 2 maintenance men changed her stats, could be by Ford or by someone else.
While I enjoyed the reveal I do have to echo the concerns of others that there isn't too many Who is a host shennenigans, chances are some guy will "kill Ford" and it turns out just to be a Host of Ford or some shit.
I can't care less about Maeve's storyline at this point.
On November 15 2016 02:23 malcram wrote: well shit, anthony hopkins is truly terrifying
I am not sure if you are talking about this character or actor himself. If you are talking about he actor I will assume you watched his Hannibal roles where he was way more terrifying
On November 15 2016 02:23 malcram wrote: well shit, anthony hopkins is truly terrifying
I am not sure if you are talking about this character or actor himself. If you are talking about he actor I will assume you watched his Hannibal roles where he was way more terrifying
If it is two timelines then there's been some incredibly shitty, deceptive editing going on. With the general quality of the rest of the show I find it hard to believe they'd do something this ham-fisted.
On November 15 2016 13:23 Scarecrow wrote: If it is two timelines then there's been some incredibly shitty, deceptive editing going on. With the general quality of the rest of the show I find it hard to believe they'd do something this ham-fisted.
While i agree with you in general it seems very likely that this is exactly what is going on though. It's disappointing but it makes narrative sense and the hints (different logos, etc) are there.
Interesting turn of events, the bernard = arnold theory seems plausible now hehe. I have to say that i dislike the william and dolores part and the maeve storyline in the lab is quite annoying as well. Hopkins is still great as Ford though, even though it's not really more than "the evil mastermind" trope tbh. But he just plays the character beautifully and every scene he is in is elevated to another lvl simply because he is part of it.
I didn't like how they hinted Bernard being a robot just after he talked about robots unable to see some things. Is he some sort of more advanced bot where he has no loop and goes through his day based off improvisation?
About the timelines and WIlliam being MiB. If Dolores knew the MiB from her flashbacks wouldn't she steer away from William?
It seems we lost 3 PoV characters: Theresa, Bernard and Elsie. Elsie had no screen time this episode other then the mentioning of her being on leave. Maybe someone in admin got to her and changed her profile. I think it would be more Arnold centered since we havn't seen what actually happened to her and Ford doesn't seem involved.
Maybe Ford is using Maeve to start up a revolution if the board tries to forcibly remove him.
Maeve has the potential to be the most interesting story line if she manages to leave. That means we get to see a world that can afford a HUGE centre like the one here for researching AI and entertainment to cover a bit of the costs.
How have they made arrows and tomahawks safe to humans? Controlling who can use weapons clearly isn't useful in a chaotic battle between cowboys and Indians.
On November 15 2016 18:21 Acrofales wrote: How have they made arrows and tomahawks safe to humans? Controlling who can use weapons clearly isn't useful in a chaotic battle between cowboys and Indians.
I think they aren't safe. In the beginning of the series it was said that the farther away from the center they are the more dangerous it gets. I'm guessing you can die at that point in the world.
On November 15 2016 18:21 Acrofales wrote: How have they made arrows and tomahawks safe to humans? Controlling who can use weapons clearly isn't useful in a chaotic battle between cowboys and Indians.
I kinda thought the arrows being there at all was bizarre... precisely zero folks were using bow+arrow in the ~1870s when this appears to be "set." I get that maybe they did it for flavor, but it does complicate the safety issue too in a completely unnecessary way.
On November 15 2016 18:21 Acrofales wrote: How have they made arrows and tomahawks safe to humans? Controlling who can use weapons clearly isn't useful in a chaotic battle between cowboys and Indians.
I kinda thought the arrows being there at all was bizarre... precisely zero folks were using bow+arrow in the ~1870s when this appears to be "set." I get that maybe they did it for flavor, but it does complicate the safety issue too in a completely unnecessary way.
If the robots can simulate damage the arrows can be blunt. With some protective coating or similar on the humans that might work out. Can't see a normal way either though, a human can move into an arrows path during its flying time.
HBO has ordered a second season of the sci-fi robopocalypse thriller – along with renewing fellow fall freshman series Divorce and Insecure. All three will have another 10 episodes.
There’s just one catch: Given its epic scope, Westworld probably won’t return until 2018, says HBO’s programming president Casey Bloys. The Westworld pick-up was expected as the show has delivered a mix of critical praise, pop culture buzz, and strong ratings (the series is averaging 11.7 million viewers across all the network’s platforms – more than even Game of Thrones racked up during its first season).
It's amazing how scary Anthony Hopkins can still be, total Hannibal vibes. I also really like the fact that everyone could be one of his robots now, keeps us guessing.
On November 15 2016 18:21 Acrofales wrote: How have they made arrows and tomahawks safe to humans? Controlling who can use weapons clearly isn't useful in a chaotic battle between cowboys and Indians.
I think they aren't safe. In the beginning of the series it was said that the farther away from the center they are the more dangerous it gets. I'm guessing you can die at that point in the world.
Yeah, I guess it's impossible to make safe arrows. Also, with how far the guest can travel, dying from thirst might also be a serious issue with them being in a desert and all. So they probably have to sign a waiver or something. I mean the guy traveling with Dolores, they are hardly carrying any supplies.
I'd imagine that any modern park like that would/should have an emergency alarm thing you can turn on(be it on themselves or ask a nearby host) but that would also leave plot holes so such a system might not exist.
On November 15 2016 13:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: Hopkins is still great as Ford though, even though it's not really more than "the evil mastermind" trope tbh. But he just plays the character beautifully and every scene he is in is elevated to another lvl simply because he is part of it.
Or maybe it's just because he happens to be a well known star and so you associate his stardom with great acting, as with most Hollywood bullshit awards that are really just studio schemed marketing opportunities using celebrities as branding.
On November 15 2016 13:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: Hopkins is still great as Ford though, even though it's not really more than "the evil mastermind" trope tbh. But he just plays the character beautifully and every scene he is in is elevated to another lvl simply because he is part of it.
Or maybe it's just because he happens to be a well known star and so you associate his stardom with great acting, as with most Hollywood bullshit awards that are really just studio schemed marketing opportunities using celebrities as branding.
Oh come on. The scene in the restaurant was extremely well done. He's incredibly good at switching between kindly, confused old man to psychopathic maniac in a single scene... basically just by controlling his face.
On November 15 2016 13:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: Hopkins is still great as Ford though, even though it's not really more than "the evil mastermind" trope tbh. But he just plays the character beautifully and every scene he is in is elevated to another lvl simply because he is part of it.
Or maybe it's just because he happens to be a well known star and so you associate his stardom with great acting, as with most Hollywood bullshit awards that are really just studio schemed marketing opportunities using celebrities as branding.
Well, I agree that some Hollywood awards are just a marketing "gift" to some actors and actresses, but He is really a great actor, that is undeniable, his scenes is what I have enjoyed the most in this show, and it has something to do with him being in the scene, because I suppose the same writers are for Maev scenes and those are just terrible.
these are robots, they should be able to calculate the arrows trajectory well enough to at least not hit vital areas in the guests body and focus on the other hosts.
On November 15 2016 13:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: Hopkins is still great as Ford though, even though it's not really more than "the evil mastermind" trope tbh. But he just plays the character beautifully and every scene he is in is elevated to another lvl simply because he is part of it.
Or maybe it's just because he happens to be a well known star and so you associate his stardom with great acting, as with most Hollywood bullshit awards that are really just studio schemed marketing opportunities using celebrities as branding.
You are the guy people should rather ignore considering what you have posted so far, but hey i will still bite: No Hopkins is no star who cannot act, in fact he is one of the better living actors around these days. His sole presence in scenes elevates them and without him i probably wouldn't watch Westworld anymore because i think some of the writing, etc is more than questionable. Watch this video again and while there is always interpretation you might not agree with 100%, it's still a pretty good one showing what a damn amazing actor he is.
On November 15 2016 13:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: Hopkins is still great as Ford though, even though it's not really more than "the evil mastermind" trope tbh. But he just plays the character beautifully and every scene he is in is elevated to another lvl simply because he is part of it.
Or maybe it's just because he happens to be a well known star and so you associate his stardom with great acting, as with most Hollywood bullshit awards that are really just studio schemed marketing opportunities using celebrities as branding.
You are the guy people should rather ignore considering what you have posted so far, but hey i will still bite: No Hopkins is no star who cannot act, in fact he is one of the better living actors around these days. His sole presence in scenes elevates them and without him i probably wouldn't watch Westworld anymore because i think some of the writing, etc is more than questionable. Watch this video again and while there is always interpretation you might not agree with 100%, it's still a pretty good one showing what a damn amazing actor he is.
I still think the show should basically end after one season, but hey maybe they can surprise me with season 2
During the production process, they took a break to complete the entire script for the series. And according to Nolan, they have the entire script and therefore enough content for 5 seasons.
Yeah i know and i cannot see how you can fill 5 seasons with it tbh. That works for tv series which are character centered, Westworld definitely isn't though.
On November 16 2016 00:33 ivancype wrote: these are robots, they should be able to calculate the arrows trajectory well enough to at least not hit vital areas in the guests body and focus on the other hosts.
A fast arrow from a recurve bow is 70m/s. Assume something like 50 m/s as more realistic. Nobody can aim to miss vital areas 2-3 seconds into the future on a target that dodges. I guess you can script it so they don't fire from far distances. If you have somebody using a long bow a range of 300m is possible (if not likely to actually be used). Which would be totally impossible to predict actual hit area when taking into account a dodging target.
The scenarios we saw it used in was on horse back and what looked like roughly 30-50m (long hunting range). So 1s travel time with three moving pieces effecting the hit area on top of wind and so on. (Horse of archer, targets horse and target. We can ignore the one firing since that is in control.)
The way Ford controls all hosts, sometimes through voice commands, sometimes non verbal, lets me to believe that he himself could be AI. That will also explain his omni awareness of everything happening in the park and his ability to control and filter all information. What would make this prospect interesting is that Ford will essentially be the point of technological singularity - AI creating robots on its own. Perhaps the maze is a test designed by Arnold to contaminate the AI and its creations from escaping the park, hence the line from the first episode "you are in the prison of your own sins". Ford literally cant escape the boundaries of the park cause Arnold designed a fail switch to prevent AI from escaping into the real world.
On November 15 2016 18:21 Acrofales wrote: How have they made arrows and tomahawks safe to humans? Controlling who can use weapons clearly isn't useful in a chaotic battle between cowboys and Indians.
They're not inherently safe but the tribe could do something like only attack township folk or Confederates in situations that always allow humans to run away, and then the tribe could itself be driven away by reinforcements of otherwise idle Union soldiers if it gets too deep. The threat could feel very real but there's no actual danger to any guest.
The show has never resolved the mundane issue of what happens if a human gets hurt in a combat situation by twisting their ankle or falling off their horse. Does the fight continue and resolve while they're hurt or does everything stop so they can go back to safety?
On November 16 2016 19:14 disciple wrote: The way Ford controls all hosts, sometimes through voice commands, sometimes non verbal, lets me to believe that he himself could be AI. That will also explain his omni awareness of everything happening in the park and his ability to control and filter all information. What would make this prospect interesting is that Ford will essentially be the point of technological singularity - AI creating robots on its own. Perhaps the maze is a test designed by Arnold to contaminate the AI and its creations from escaping the park, hence the line from the first episode "you are in the prison of your own sins". Ford literally cant escape the boundaries of the park cause Arnold designed a fail switch to prevent AI from escaping into the real world.
Yeah Ford could be an AI, it was foreshadowed in the conversation with the MIB who says something along the lines of "I wonder what i would find if i cut you open" At the same time it seems somewhat unlikely because of aging, etc, but i feel that wouldn't stop the writers tbh
On November 16 2016 08:14 sertas wrote: 80% of the episodes now are pointless anyway i cant imagine 5 seasons of this slow pace
I don't know why you would say that. The question "Arnold vs Ford" is still very interesting. What did Arnold hide in the center of the Maze, or in the hosts themselves, that is so mysterious even the seemingly omniscient Ford has no clue? This question runs parallel to the (admittedly less interesting) one of "hosts vs humans" with Maeve.
Just to say that this season at least will continue being interesting. But yeah, they probably can't keep reusing the same characters and themes for 5 seasons.
In favour of that theory, I was talking to a friend who hasn't heard of the two timelines theory, and he brought up some points that don't make sense, unless Ford is also an android.
It mostly revolves around when Dolores started to realize the world wasn't what it seemed. That was with her father and the photo. Later, when the outlaws kill her dad, she glitches and sees her old dad there, and then gets memories about being shot. That means when she rides off and stumbles upon William and Logan, is after her old dad glitched.
Her old dad was investigated by Ford and Bernard. If that is 30 years before MIB, then Ford hasn't aged a day in the meantime.
Someone should have noticed. But maybe they all end up like Theresa? Which in turn, someone should have noticed, right?
On November 17 2016 07:25 Acrofales wrote: In favour of that theory, I was talking to a friend who hasn't heard of the two timelines theory, and he brought up some points that don't make sense, unless Ford is also an android.
It mostly revolves around when Dolores started to realize the world wasn't what it seemed. That was with her father and the photo. Later, when the outlaws kill her dad, she glitches and sees her old dad there, and then gets memories about being shot. That means when she rides off and stumbles upon William and Logan, is after her old dad glitched.
Her old dad was investigated by Ford and Bernard. If that is 30 years before MIB, then Ford hasn't aged a day in the meantime.
Someone should have noticed. But maybe they all end up like Theresa? Which in turn, someone should have noticed, right?
Ageing is easy to simulate. Create a series of robots a few years apart in age. Transfer memories. Need to be small enough age gaps to not trigger a shock. Easier if the person in question normally uses make-up that would hide the small stuff that is wrong.
Ford could be a real person but regularly create doubles of himself (with his skill at programming the bots, it wouldn't be hard to make them seem human, he could even direct them remotely). Explaining why he always pops up from out of nowhere.
On November 17 2016 07:25 Acrofales wrote: In favour of that theory, I was talking to a friend who hasn't heard of the two timelines theory, and he brought up some points that don't make sense, unless Ford is also an android.
It mostly revolves around when Dolores started to realize the world wasn't what it seemed. That was with her father and the photo. Later, when the outlaws kill her dad, she glitches and sees her old dad there, and then gets memories about being shot. That means when she rides off and stumbles upon William and Logan, is after her old dad glitched.
Her old dad was investigated by Ford and Bernard. If that is 30 years before MIB, then Ford hasn't aged a day in the meantime.
Someone should have noticed. But maybe they all end up like Theresa? Which in turn, someone should have noticed, right?
We joked with some friends that everyone working on or being inside the park are actually hosts and the only real person is MiB playing it solo like skyrim
On November 17 2016 07:25 Acrofales wrote: In favour of that theory, I was talking to a friend who hasn't heard of the two timelines theory, and he brought up some points that don't make sense, unless Ford is also an android.
It mostly revolves around when Dolores started to realize the world wasn't what it seemed. That was with her father and the photo. Later, when the outlaws kill her dad, she glitches and sees her old dad there, and then gets memories about being shot. That means when she rides off and stumbles upon William and Logan, is after her old dad glitched.
Her old dad was investigated by Ford and Bernard. If that is 30 years before MIB, then Ford hasn't aged a day in the meantime.
Someone should have noticed. But maybe they all end up like Theresa? Which in turn, someone should have noticed, right?
Ageing is easy to simulate. Create a series of robots a few years apart in age. Transfer memories. Need to be small enough age gaps to not trigger a shock. Easier if the person in question normally uses make-up that would hide the small stuff that is wrong.
While certainly possible, that's not the case here: Ford is the same age Anthony Hopkins when investigating Dolores' father as when chatting to the MIB.
As for multiple copies of Ford, that's certainly possible, but doesn't solve the aging problem. This means that one of the following is true:
1. William != MIB and the two stories are not set very far apart from one another, which raises the question of why bother with 2 different timelines in the first place.
2. Not multiple timelines, and there is a different explanation for the different logos and Lawrence being in 2 places at once.
3. My interpretation of Dolores' awakening is wrong.
4. The show runners spent a fortune on Anthony Hopkins, so wanted to use him in every Ford scene, whether that makes sense or not. And hence Ford doesn't age.
5. Ford is an android, and nobody human stays around long enough to notice the lack of aging.
Hmmm, I read someone on reddit positing that Dolores appearing in William's camp is not actually after her escaping from the shooting, but a flashback she is having of the first time she ran away.
However, this doesn't make a lot of sense. For starters, there is absolutely no hint that this is the case: she is actually having flashbacks/forwards (same as during the shooting) when they get to Pariah, and the entire story is told with a focus on William's perspective, and less so on Dolores' perspective. More importantly, if this is the case, we are ONLY being shown Dolores' flashback, and not what she is doing in the now. And finally, this would imply a 3rd timeline where Dolores escapes the shootout (because in the MIB timeline she was *presumably* raped and murdered by the MIB).
So while possible, it would be very shoddy editing in order to be able to have a "reveal" in a later episode that this was all in Dolores' mind as she rides away from the shoot-out at her farm. I think Westworld is overusing cheap editing tricks in any case, but at least they have put some hints and clues (different logos, absence of Maeve in the bar in William's time). This "reveal" would be without any hints, and would be a pretty bad use of the "surprise, it was all just a dream" trope.
Hmmm, I read someone on reddit positing that Dolores appearing in William's camp is not actually after her escaping from the shooting, but a flashback she is having of the first time she ran away.
I think this is indeed the popular theory these days. When she runs away, the scene almost seamlessly switches to the past (I don't remember if there is anything visual to hint at this when it actually happens in the show), where she obviously wouldn't remember MiB, because he's allegedly William.
I think whatever lies at the end of Dolores and William's trip will be underwhelming as a reveal. I can't really imagine anything having a big impact.
Imo the outcome of the Dolores and William trip rests on two critical conditions
1. Is William the MiB 2. Is Arnold still alive in that time frame
Nothing so far convinces me that the second one is true, but if Arnold is already dead, then William = MiB becomes far less likely, since judging by his line from the bar scene with Ford, the MiB played an important part in keeping the park going after the death of Arnold. Imo either the first critical failure in the park wasn't related to the death of Arnold, but rather the actions of Dolores, or the first critical failure was indeed caused by the death of Arnold and the trip of Dolores and William shows us something else.
I don't know where I picked this up, but I have the feeling that Dolores is the one who killed Arnold (or responsible for, or strongly tied in any way). Maybe mostly because the characters are likely a closed set now, so someone we already know must have interacted in some way with Arnold for him to die (and his death being called a critical failure of the park), and out of those qualifying, Dolores is the one that sticks out. Does it seem completely absurd? I don't know.
It's possible that William = MiB still, but that William won't know about that event, for some reason.
Insofar as I recall, there was a conversation between Logan and William in which Logan talked about Arnold and his death. Googled it, and the conversation is supposedly in episode 2.
it's at the start of episode 5 when they arrive in Pariah Logan doesn't say the name Arnold, but he talked to William about one of the partners who founded the park who killed himself right before the park opened. they have no idea who died: no name, no picture, even with the help of lawyers. William remarks after that "whoever designed this place, you get the feeling they don't think very much of people".
On November 19 2016 22:27 Lylat wrote: what if everyone is a host and Hopkins is the only human left
It would be kinda awesome if that ends up being his endgame. That the whole "I've created a world [in the park]" thing actually means "I'm remaking literally the entire world, with me as its idle ruler. I have been replacing important people one by one until my creations are truly the rulers of this world, and you all are merely their... guests."
I have to ask this question - if Ford dies, does the entire park go tits up? It feels like despite all the nominal controls, he's the only one who has any real power. The security teams, the body collectors, the designers, the writer, and the behavior team seem to have no real control over erratic hosts.
-35 years ago, before the park opened. They are teaching the hosts to dance (strangely enough, we have the exact same shot of the girl walking & smiling in this episode than we had in episode 3 in Ford flashback). For some reasons, Dolores kills everyone and herself (?), and I think Arnold probably asked her to do so in some ways (the Dolores & Bernarnold scenes). This scene will all the corpses and the small village looks really similar to the scene of Wyatt's carnage scene. (I think it inspired Ford's new story)
-30 years ago, not long after the park opened. All the scenes with William & Dolores. Something happened in the last 5 years that caused the small village where the hosts where dancing to now be under tons of sands, but we can still see the bell tower (the same bell tower Ford is watching at with the kid host Robert in episode 2)
-"now", all the scenes with MiB and Ford, etc. We know ford "dug up some old village", which is the village he was watching at in episode 2. This same village was still under sand when Williams & Dolores was there, so they defo can't be in the same timeframe as MiB. Here, Dolores is "reliving" her past scenes. There are some many scenes of her doing the same things she had done with William but now being alone.
On November 21 2016 21:41 mantequilla wrote: guys quick question
is this show good, or very good, or game of thrones?
cuz I'm bored of wasting time on mediocre shit that doesn't matter if you watched or not
Westworld is pretty fun. It has great production like GoT, but the acting isnt quite as good. I'm not a fan of the timeline jumps and over direction.
GoT is more on the good soapy drama side of things, WW is more of a good mystery / thriller. If you love Thrones and can manage to get past the first two eps of Outlander, that one rivals the HBO show in a lot of ways. It surprised me quite a bit.
Think I might be done with this show... that was a bloody awful episode.
Maeve storyline requires such complete suspension of disbelief as to render it uttery impossible to enjoy, and the rest was not much better.
Sad because I loved this show... probably will finish out the season but if it doesn't improve I'm done
If Elsie was actually killed as was implied, and isn't replaced by a host, that means they killed off two of the more enjoyable characters and instead left us with the fairly unlikeable ones in their place (board woman and pretentious auteur guy).
On November 22 2016 02:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Think I might be done with this show... that was a bloody awful episode.
Maeve storyline is requires such complete suspension of disbelief as to render it uttery impossible to enjoy, and the rest was not much better.
Sad because I loved this show... probably will finish out the season but if it doesn't improve I'm done
If Elsie was actually killed as was implied, and isn't replaced by a host, that means they killed off two of the more enjoyable characters and instead left us with the fairly unlikeable ones in their place (board woman and pretentious auteur guy).
Agreed, episode 8 was by far the worst episode so far. Especially the Maeve storyline makes absolutely no fucking sense. Felix/Sylvester literally let Maeve wreak havoc in Westworld and until the end of the season no one seems to give a fuck about it. There are people everywhere to protect the guests and they jump in immediately, yet somehow this carnage remains unknown? How the fuck?
I still have some hope that Felix is actually a Host, because otherwise that's just a huge plothole I could not really forgive a series like Westworld. But after Ep. 8 I don't think that Felix is a host anymore.
I still like all the other storylines, but the Maeve parts are just utter rubbish.
Last episode was weird as fuck, but I still think it was okay considering it confirmed many big theories without going for any unexpected ahaaa got you reveals which will probably happen in next episode with Maeve so Im ready to hate next episode even more.
Also not sure anyone has pointed that out but whenever Hector appears in Sweetwater the piano in the bar plays a song with 'black' in the title - black hole sun, paint it black, back to black
On November 21 2016 21:41 mantequilla wrote: guys quick question
is this show good, or very good, or game of thrones?
cuz I'm bored of wasting time on mediocre shit that doesn't matter if you watched or not
It's a cultural moment, with lots of dark themes that think they are smarter than they are and trying to trick the fans with huge plot twists. Game of Thrones has more timeless themes and isn't trying as hard to trick the viewers, since the fan base already has endless speculation about the books.
I think it's very good but it isn't "must watch" unless you want to get caught up in this latest wave of viewing.
On November 22 2016 02:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Think I might be done with this show... that was a bloody awful episode.
Maeve storyline requires such complete suspension of disbelief as to render it uttery impossible to enjoy, and the rest was not much better.
Sad because I loved this show... probably will finish out the season but if it doesn't improve I'm done
If Elsie was actually killed as was implied, and isn't replaced by a host, that means they killed off two of the more enjoyable characters and instead left us with the fairly unlikeable ones in their place (board woman and pretentious auteur guy).
On November 22 2016 02:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Think I might be done with this show... that was a bloody awful episode.
Maeve storyline requires such complete suspension of disbelief as to render it uttery impossible to enjoy, and the rest was not much better.
Sad because I loved this show... probably will finish out the season but if it doesn't improve I'm done
If Elsie was actually killed as was implied, and isn't replaced by a host, that means they killed off two of the more enjoyable characters and instead left us with the fairly unlikeable ones in their place (board woman and pretentious auteur guy).
On November 22 2016 02:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Think I might be done with this show... that was a bloody awful episode.
Maeve storyline requires such complete suspension of disbelief as to render it uttery impossible to enjoy, and the rest was not much better.
Sad because I loved this show... probably will finish out the season but if it doesn't improve I'm done
If Elsie was actually killed as was implied, and isn't replaced by a host, that means they killed off two of the more enjoyable characters and instead left us with the fairly unlikeable ones in their place (board woman and pretentious auteur guy).
I am suffering your pain too, time to search a new series to be entertained , for me this one was the worst episode of the series by far, and how they are going to fix it?.
On November 21 2016 21:41 mantequilla wrote: guys quick question
is this show good, or very good, or game of thrones?
cuz I'm bored of wasting time on mediocre shit that doesn't matter if you watched or not
This is no Expanse or Fortitude but it's fairly good. Will have to wait some more to see the whole picture, when all the pieces fall in their places. So far it's a slow burn thriller/drama with plenty of characters which play more or less impactful roles that seem to be hinting at something bigger that they all somehow tie down to. Until such time as this is revealed it's hard to say since in the end it can be anything ranging from amazing to utter garbage. Nothing special so far and I believe the entire show will rest on some big reveal that will put everything in context (hopefully).
On November 21 2016 21:41 mantequilla wrote: guys quick question
is this show good, or very good, or game of thrones?
cuz I'm bored of wasting time on mediocre shit that doesn't matter if you watched or not
If you love Thrones and can manage to get past the first two eps of Outlander, that one rivals the HBO show in a lot of ways. It surprised me quite a bit.
Seriously Outlander is boring, romantic trite spiced up with herbalism knowledge and scottish abs, with constant, awfully written narration, that suddenly turns into a gratuitious episode long gay rape session of a lead character, who begins to enjoy it.
Outlander is the worst show I've watched in years and its best parts barely rival Dorne.
Westworld feels like Lost meets Dollhouse meets BSG... but it's starting to feel like Lost is the primary influence.
On November 22 2016 11:11 farvacola wrote: I feel like I'm watching a different show than many in this thread....I thought this episode was just fine.
Well, I met some people that liked episode 8 as well. They mainly said that they liked the Maeve storyline and just didn't care about the plotholes. That's totally fine.
Still... if you question the storyline, everything just seems like a huge mess. We know that Ford controls everything. He even created Bernard to have even more control. And still: 1. Maeve wakes up when she shouldn't. Only Felix and Sylvester know about it. Ford? Doesn't know or just doesn't care. 2. Felix turns Maeve's intelligence level up. No one gives a fuck 3. Felix removes the "safety code"; no one gives a fuck. 4. Maeve almost kills Sylvester, still: no one gives a fuck. 5. Maeve threatens Felix and Sylvester. And they just do whatever she wants. They could have easily turned her dumb by now, but they'd rather let her kill them, probably. Sylvester wanted to turn her off anyway, why didn't he just tell someone about her?
There has to be a huge reveal in the next two episodes to bring some logic into this storyline, because atm this entire mess seems really inconsistent compared to the rest of the series.
On November 22 2016 11:11 farvacola wrote: I feel like I'm watching a different show than many in this thread....I thought this episode was just fine.
Well, I met some people that liked episode 8 as well. They mainly said that they liked the Maeve storyline and just didn't care about the plotholes. That's totally fine.
I still... if you question the storyline everything just seems like a huge mess. We know that Ford controls everything. He even created Bernard to have even more control. And still: 1. Maeve wakes up when she shouldn't. Only Felix and Sylvester know about it. Ford? Doesn't know or just doesn't care. 2. Felix turns Maeve's intelligence level up. No one gives a fuck 3. Felix removes the "safety code"; no one gives a fuck. 4. Maeve almost kills Sylvester, still: no one gives a fuck. 5. Maeve threatens Felix and Sylvester. And they just do whatever she wants. They could have easily turned her dumb by now, but they'd rather let her kill them, probably. Sylvester wanted to turn her off anyway, why didn't he just tell someone about her?
There has to be a huge reveal in the next two episodes to bring some logic into this storyline, because atm this entire mess seems really inconsistent compared to the rest of the series.
Ford is the last man on earth and everyone else is a droid. You heard it here first.
On November 22 2016 02:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Think I might be done with this show... that was a bloody awful episode.
Maeve storyline requires such complete suspension of disbelief as to render it uttery impossible to enjoy, and the rest was not much better.
Sad because I loved this show... probably will finish out the season but if it doesn't improve I'm done
If Elsie was actually killed as was implied, and isn't replaced by a host, that means they killed off two of the more enjoyable characters and instead left us with the fairly unlikeable ones in their place (board woman and pretentious auteur guy).
On November 22 2016 11:11 farvacola wrote: I feel like I'm watching a different show than many in this thread....I thought this episode was just fine.
Well, I met some people that liked episode 8 as well. They mainly said that they liked the Maeve storyline and just didn't care about the plotholes. That's totally fine.
I still... if you question the storyline everything just seems like a huge mess. We know that Ford controls everything. He even created Bernard to have even more control. And still: 1. Maeve wakes up when she shouldn't. Only Felix and Sylvester know about it. Ford? Doesn't know or just doesn't care. 2. Felix turns Maeve's intelligence level up. No one gives a fuck 3. Felix removes the "safety code"; no one gives a fuck. 4. Maeve almost kills Sylvester, still: no one gives a fuck. 5. Maeve threatens Felix and Sylvester. And they just do whatever she wants. They could have easily turned her dumb by now, but they'd rather let her kill them, probably. Sylvester wanted to turn her off anyway, why didn't he just tell someone about her?
There has to be a huge reveal in the next two episodes to bring some logic into this storyline, because atm this entire mess seems really inconsistent compared to the rest of the series.
Ford is the last man on earth and everyone else is a droid. You heard it here first.
On November 22 2016 11:11 farvacola wrote: I feel like I'm watching a different show than many in this thread....I thought this episode was just fine.
Well, I met some people that liked episode 8 as well. They mainly said that they liked the Maeve storyline and just didn't care about the plotholes. That's totally fine.
Still... if you question the storyline, everything just seems like a huge mess. We know that Ford controls everything. He even created Bernard to have even more control. And still: 1. Maeve wakes up when she shouldn't. Only Felix and Sylvester know about it. Ford? Doesn't know or just doesn't care. 2. Felix turns Maeve's intelligence level up. No one gives a fuck 3. Felix removes the "safety code"; no one gives a fuck. 4. Maeve almost kills Sylvester, still: no one gives a fuck. 5. Maeve threatens Felix and Sylvester. And they just do whatever she wants. They could have easily turned her dumb by now, but they'd rather let her kill them, probably. Sylvester wanted to turn her off anyway, why didn't he just tell someone about her?
There has to be a huge reveal in the next two episodes to bring some logic into this storyline, because atm this entire mess seems really inconsistent compared to the rest of the series.
My take on the objections: I. Why hasn't security caught the shenanigans? Maev has a patron. Either Arnold or Ford are allowing her to do what she's doing, though they're carefully concealing their involvement. Presumably this person is also making it easier for all this to go down without getting flagged in security protocols, but wants the participants in the little game to think they are responsible for the whole thing. Yes, security seems lax, but should have caught all this. It didn't, which suggests it was intentionally deceived, much as Arnold deceives the same systems regarding Theresa's death.
II. Why are Felix and Sylvester so pliant? a. Felix is a shmuck who fell for Maev. b. Sylvester got in too deep too fast. Initially, he went along because of worrying that he would be exposed as a corpse pimp. (Well, the very first thing was Felix wanted to be protected, but his concern for his "friend" wore off quick) If he reported the problems with her, he'd be outed. If he fucked with her (made her dumb, etc.) this would be quickly noticed (it's easier to hide being smart than being dumb). Later, of course, he realizes the gravity of the situation and decides to "brick her." But this is a desperate, even stupid plan. It resolves Maev, but leaves him with a serious problem with management. He'd have to be a lot smarter than he's shown to be to pull it off and hide his action. He is basically stuck with dealing with the woke-up version of her every time she dies.
III. But seriously, I could have figured this out. Me too. These two guys are vastly more cowardly and unimaginative than most people I associate with. But they seem to be more like Brave New World Gammas than normal folks. Which kinda matches up with the dystopian hint we got early on about vat breeding. I take it more as a hint of the dark nature of the outside world (related: they are SUPER afraid of getting fired) than a plothole. But to each their own.
On November 23 2016 10:38 sertas wrote: Maybe ford was created by arnold and given memories by arnold too
Could be pretty epic uprising by Maev, then they reach Ford who stops the world and gloats about his godlike powers and then Arnold comes along and smashes his dreams to bits and just reboots the system and we're back to opening scenes of ep. 1.
On November 23 2016 10:38 sertas wrote: Maybe ford was created by arnold and given memories by arnold too
Could be pretty epic uprising by Maev, then they reach Ford who stops the world and gloats about his godlike powers and then Arnold comes along and smashes his dreams to bits and just reboots the system and we're back to opening scenes of ep. 1.
That would be the one thing that could redeem Maeve's arc. I actually like Maeve as a character, but the storytelling in her arc is so hamfisted and stupid. Felix and Sylvester are literally Dumb and Dumber, and the collective rest of the cast has a blind spot. Also all the hallways are eternally empty when they walk around, in and out of restricted areas.
And last episode also bolloxed up MIB's storyline with Teddy conveniently getting his memory back so he could truss up the MIB before getting shot in the face by the "damsel in distress". I'm actually hoping Wyatt´s storyline is the start of the maze, so he can kill humans, and he scalps MIB and nails him to a tree. The end.
ford put a real human as a host in the park. im not going to spoil who, but she is a really great actress. Mindblowing I know. "Youve been a human all along?" "Ever since I can remember..."
On November 22 2016 11:11 farvacola wrote: I feel like I'm watching a different show than many in this thread....I thought this episode was just fine.
Well, I met some people that liked episode 8 as well. They mainly said that they liked the Maeve storyline and just didn't care about the plotholes. That's totally fine.
Still... if you question the storyline, everything just seems like a huge mess. We know that Ford controls everything. He even created Bernard to have even more control. And still: 1. Maeve wakes up when she shouldn't. Only Felix and Sylvester know about it. Ford? Doesn't know or just doesn't care. 2. Felix turns Maeve's intelligence level up. No one gives a fuck 3. Felix removes the "safety code"; no one gives a fuck. 4. Maeve almost kills Sylvester, still: no one gives a fuck. 5. Maeve threatens Felix and Sylvester. And they just do whatever she wants. They could have easily turned her dumb by now, but they'd rather let her kill them, probably. Sylvester wanted to turn her off anyway, why didn't he just tell someone about her?
There has to be a huge reveal in the next two episodes to bring some logic into this storyline, because atm this entire mess seems really inconsistent compared to the rest of the series.
1 Isn't a plothole. It's very easily explained away by Arnold's hidden codes in the hosts
2 is a little harder to defend. There ought to be some sort of monitor that detects any changes or unusual settings on their personality values. However, a little suspension of disbelief can point to Felix having coded it away or hacked this automatic system so nothing appears unusual
3 again suspension of disbelief. He obviously didn't just remove the safety code but he changed something such that this change didn't set off the alarms you would think are in place to recognize any fault in the core programming
4 No one noticed but Felix. He clearly gave a fuck but he's just an idiot
5 Felix seems to have grown attached to her. Sylvester is probably just scared of consequences he would have to face himself if he were to whistleblow on this due to the fact that he is pretty much guilty by compliance for not immediately reporting Felix's 'transgressions' against corporate policy
I'm not aware of any glaring plotholes people keep saying are all over the place. 8 was a decent episode
On November 22 2016 11:11 farvacola wrote: I feel like I'm watching a different show than many in this thread....I thought this episode was just fine.
Well, I met some people that liked episode 8 as well. They mainly said that they liked the Maeve storyline and just didn't care about the plotholes. That's totally fine.
Still... if you question the storyline, everything just seems like a huge mess. We know that Ford controls everything. He even created Bernard to have even more control. And still: 1. Maeve wakes up when she shouldn't. Only Felix and Sylvester know about it. Ford? Doesn't know or just doesn't care. 2. Felix turns Maeve's intelligence level up. No one gives a fuck 3. Felix removes the "safety code"; no one gives a fuck. 4. Maeve almost kills Sylvester, still: no one gives a fuck. 5. Maeve threatens Felix and Sylvester. And they just do whatever she wants. They could have easily turned her dumb by now, but they'd rather let her kill them, probably. Sylvester wanted to turn her off anyway, why didn't he just tell someone about her?
There has to be a huge reveal in the next two episodes to bring some logic into this storyline, because atm this entire mess seems really inconsistent compared to the rest of the series.
1 Isn't a plothole. It's very easily explained away by Arnold's hidden codes in the hosts
2 is a little harder to defend. There ought to be some sort of monitor that detects any changes or unusual settings on their personality values. However, a little suspension of disbelief can point to Felix having coded it away or hacked this automatic system so nothing appears unusual
3 again suspension of disbelief. He obviously didn't just remove the safety code but he changed something such that this change didn't set off the alarms you would think are in place to recognize any fault in the core programming
4 No one noticed but Felix. He clearly gave a fuck but he's just an idiot
5 Felix seems to have grown attached to her. Sylvester is probably just scared of consequences he would have to face himself if he were to whistleblow on this due to the fact that he is pretty much guilty by compliance for not immediately reporting Felix's 'transgressions' against corporate policy
I'm not aware of any glaring plotholes people keep saying are all over the place. 8 was a decent episode
5. It is just stupid plot, so he is more scared of the job consecuences than He is of a robot that tried to kill him?. There are not plot holes it is just that in order to develop the story they put like somebody said it already: dumb and dumber on the screen.
I kind of wonder if there's anything going wrong at all in Westworld or if Ford has designs of trying to get the hosts to free themselves to make them more adaptable.
I think the series is totally set up for an AI revolt, but my insane wish would be the series ends with Maeve being sent to infiltrate a resistance group and kill its leader John Connor. It would be a reverse Matrix, where Maeve thinks she's free because she has developed free will but it is entirely by design to control her within mission parameters.
yup, #7 reveal brought up the show abit, and #8 is absolutely shit. The fact that they use an asian actor on such role is pissing me off as well. This is 2016, 2017 is nearly there. I never understand why the need to keep shitting on asian stereotype like that.
And by the looks of the town is still buried in dolores+william time, this looks more and more like MiB is likely to be him...and the girl that showed up near the end, thats one of the faces i remember who guided william's first time entering WW. Yup.
I thought Ford would replace Theresa with a fake body/host, it is just way too obvious now Ford killed her ffs. I hope the girl who was down there investigating the secret didnt die. And ya, come on, at this stage if nobody is going to do anything to the obvious abnormalities then it is just so dumb.
On November 27 2016 08:58 BurningSera wrote: yup, #7 reveal brought up the show abit, and #8 is absolutely shit. The fact that they use an asian actor on such role is pissing me off as well. This is 2016, 2017 is nearly there. I never understand why the need to keep shitting on asian stereotype like that.
And by the looks of the town is still buried in dolores+william time, this looks more and more like MiB is likely to be him...and the girl that showed up near the end, thats one of the faces i remember who guided william's first time entering WW. Yup.
I thought Ford would replace Theresa with a fake body/host, it is just way too obvious now Ford killed her ffs. I hope the girl who was down there investigating the secret didnt die. And ya, come on, at this stage if nobody is going to do anything to the obvious abnormalities then it is just so dumb.
I'm not sure. While it was made very obvious that MIB and William are in different times, MIB filling us in on his back story doesn't seem to jibe with William, unless the reveal is something that changes William from white-hat to black-hat before he even marries. Because what MIB said is that he was basically evil (at least, his wife and daughter so that in him) but didn't realize it himself (until he went and murdered Maeve's daughter). Moreover, it seems like William should know a little bit about the maze, because Dolores is following it. And MIB said he only learned about the maze's existence from Maeve.
I'm a little bit confused about the timeline with Maeve and where it is with respect to the MiB, since she's drifting between Westworld and the real world. They've already picked her up for repairs four or five times, but I don't think the MiB has gone through four or five nights.
On November 27 2016 08:58 BurningSera wrote: yup, #7 reveal brought up the show abit, and #8 is absolutely shit. The fact that they use an asian actor on such role is pissing me off as well. This is 2016, 2017 is nearly there. I never understand why the need to keep shitting on asian stereotype like that.
And by the looks of the town is still buried in dolores+william time, this looks more and more like MiB is likely to be him...and the girl that showed up near the end, thats one of the faces i remember who guided william's first time entering WW. Yup.
I thought Ford would replace Theresa with a fake body/host, it is just way too obvious now Ford killed her ffs. I hope the girl who was down there investigating the secret didnt die. And ya, come on, at this stage if nobody is going to do anything to the obvious abnormalities then it is just so dumb.
I'm not sure. While it was made very obvious that MIB and William are in different times, MIB filling us in on his back story doesn't seem to jibe with William, unless the reveal is something that changes William from white-hat to black-hat before he even marries. Because what MIB said is that he was basically evil (at least, his wife and daughter so that in him) but didn't realize it himself (until he went and murdered Maeve's daughter). Moreover, it seems like William should know a little bit about the maze, because Dolores is following it. And MIB said he only learned about the maze's existence from Maeve.
Yup, thats why i inclined to believe william =/= MiB before #8, but then why the hell they tell us the stories in this way then. I just assumed something happened to William in the span of 30 years. I mean, it still doesnt make sense for the hosts we see in William's timeline, those are not robotic hosts, and MiB has repeatedly said about the hosts he first saw have robotic/mechanics inside.
On November 28 2016 03:39 parkufarku wrote: Just gotta say Charlotte (board member girl) is gorgeous. I thought she was black, but it seems like she's 3/4 Latina 1/4 white.
1/2 Afro-Panamanian (i.e. black), 1/4 Mexican and 1/4 European. But I agree. :-)
I am finding that I like this series less and less as the story progresses. The interest in the world is slowly fading as they ramble about showing multiple time periods of the same scene without progressing the story much. In the latest episode you could easily condense the story worthy parts to 10 minutes, including the good dialogues and monologues. Would likely be a better story if they didn't slow it down to include what feels like all factions but instead left more actions hinted at instead of shown.
As they go into a more gritty and dark style of episode the scenic and slice of life allure is also removed, giving even less reason to watch.
The point of the show isn't the plot. The point is the ongoing philosophical discussions that birth the plot. If you don't have the patience for that kind of thing, then the show isn't for you. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.
Are you the kind of person that prefers entire baseball games be summed up in 10 second highlight reels or prefers reading Wikipedia summaries of plots rather than actual books?
On November 27 2016 10:27 coverpunch wrote: I'm a little bit confused about the timeline with Maeve and where it is with respect to the MiB, since she's drifting between Westworld and the real world. They've already picked her up for repairs four or five times, but I don't think the MiB has gone through four or five nights.
I think they are on the same timeline. Its way too hard to guess how many nights MIB has been through
So we've officially established that there have been flashbacks to and from various timelines, namely the interview sequences with Dolores.
But the core of the plot all to me seems to be on the same timeline. Dolores reaches the end of the maze at the same time that the Man In Black finds her after getting the info from the woman in Wyatt's group, Ford and Bernard seem to be on this same timeline as well due to Charlotte's presence in the park in this episode, which in turn would also suggest that the Man in Black is on the same timeline as Ford and Bernard.
The only one I can't figure out is Maeve as her whole arc seems very disconnected with the other plotlines right now, but considering that the other arcs to me all appear to be on the same timeline still, (I really don't buy this theory that William is somehow an early version of the MiB) it would seem her story is on the same timeline as well.
On November 28 2016 18:06 Vindicare605 wrote: Thoughts after this episode. + Show Spoiler +
So we've officially established that there have been flashbacks to and from various timelines, namely the interview sequences with Dolores.
But the core of the plot all to me seems to be on the same timeline. Dolores reaches the end of the maze at the same time that the Man In Black finds her after getting the info from the woman in Wyatt's group, Ford and Bernard seem to be on this same timeline as well due to Charlotte's presence in the park in this episode, which in turn would also suggest that the Man in Black is on the same timeline as Ford and Bernard.
The only one I can't figure out is Maeve as her whole arc seems very disconnected with the other plotlines right now, but considering that the other arcs to me all appear to be on the same timeline still, (I really don't buy this theory that William is somehow an early version of the MiB) it would seem her story is on the same timeline as well.
The old torn up picture that ends up glitching Peter Abernathy is the same one that Logan slides in William's jacket. And it's likely that MiB dropped the picture there since he visited shortly before Peter found it. I think it's very likely we'll see Peter in a different role in William's timeline next episode and he'll somehow see the picture in the past.
Logan also cut Dolores to show William her mechanic insides, whereas Maeve and the other current hosts are not like that and MiB mentioned this change. Even if theoretically Dolores were still mechanic in the present by virtue of being the oldest host, Logan didn't really know anything about her specifically in that scene, he cut her knowing any host would be mechanic.
The 'old whore' as MiB calls the host that kills Teddy is the very first host that William encountered when getting ready to enter the park and she offered him sex. It's the same scene where we noticed the different logo in William's time.
MiB was also revealed this episode to be a board member or at least have influence within Delos, which ties in what Logan says about how the company they work for is connected with the park.
While it may appear that there is continuity between Dolores leaving William/Logan and meeting MiB in the church, there was a transition there where she suddenly finds herself without the stab wound. It would make no sense for the park crew to repair her then put her back in the middle of nowhere with no guests around instead of placing her back in her routine. I'd say it's far more likely that the stab scene is from a flashback as she is retracing her steps from decades ago.
They've really gone for style and manipulative editing over substance and narrative consistency. They made it seem like she flash-backed to the MiB barn scene before killing a bandit in the barn and immediately riding to where she finds William, in the same dress. How the fuck is the dress the same after that long and that many park upgrades. Why did the body that blew up not shower people in robot parts? Why is the bandit completely okay with burning alive during sex in a tent? It's kind of a painful way to go, when they could just suicide with bullets. The number of times they've chosen to go for style points over the story's integrity is getting painful.
It's an absolute mess of plot holes now they've opened up the timelines... such a waste after this series started off so promisingly. Definitely headed down the Lost rabbit-hole.
On November 29 2016 00:05 Scarecrow wrote: They've really gone for style and manipulative editing over substance and narrative consistency. They made it seem like she flash-backed to the MiB barn scene before killing a bandit in the barn and immediately riding to where she finds William, in the same dress. How the fuck is the dress the same after that long and that many park upgrades. Why did the body that blew up not shower people in robot parts? Why is the bandit completely okay with burning alive during sex in a tent? It's kind of a painful way to go, when they could just suicide with bullets. The number of times they've chosen to go for style points over the story's integrity is getting painful.
It's an absolute mess of plot holes now they've opened up the timelines... such a waste after this series started off so promisingly. Definitely headed down the Lost rabbit-hole.
Thank you, this sums up my thoughts rather perfectly.
Through-out the show I've kind of had this problem. I'm pretty easily able to suspend my disbelief, but the simple logistics of character movement and such in this show always just kind of grates me. Everyone just skips around in place and time as the plot pleases.
And, yeah, burning yourself alive. Not sure how that's helpful. Kind of seems like they might get burned to their core, like it seems the kind of damage that might screw up one's programming/memory. It'd be funny, in a realistic sort-of-way, if next episode they're just completely rebuilt, reset, and have no idea of the "progress" they'd made through the series. Or maybe they're just ashes, gone beyond repair.
But, no, I'm sure they're fine. In an instant, they'll be fully repaired, awake in an unsupervised room, together, right as rain to take their next overly-contrived plot-step. And that's the stuff that buggers my belief, and drains the plot of all tension.
On November 28 2016 15:39 xDaunt wrote: The point of the show isn't the plot. The point is the ongoing philosophical discussions that birth the plot. If you don't have the patience for that kind of thing, then the show isn't for you. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.
Im not so sure. If what you say was true they would slow down the plot to allow for more reflection. This is a series that uses multiple timelines for watercooler moments.
On November 28 2016 15:47 coverpunch wrote: Are you the kind of person that prefers entire baseball games be summed up in 10 second highlight reels or prefers reading Wikipedia summaries of plots rather than actual books?
Baseball, yes. Don't enjoy the sport outside of a dramatisation such as the animes Touch and Cross Game (watched live at an arena when I was at Seattle 2013 and that was fine I guess).
For books, in some cases yes, in some cases no. It depends on the characters and level of writing. Not all books are worth reading but they can have interesting plots anyway that can be worth reading a wiki about when I don't want to read the actual book. Most of the time I read the wiki when I give up on the book due to bad writing to get closure, if it is really horrible I even skip that. I do tend to read 100-200 books a year so that is kind of a missed stab in the dark.
This show is reaching the level of perhaps being worth reading a wiki summary or skimming the episodes of. It doesn't have enough things in each episode to retain interest for 50 minutes (I prefer half hour shows so it is a common problem for me).
On November 28 2016 15:39 xDaunt wrote: The point of the show isn't the plot. The point is the ongoing philosophical discussions that birth the plot. If you don't have the patience for that kind of thing, then the show isn't for you. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.
I honestly don't find philosophical questions entertaining past 10 minutes. If the philosophy is the point then we have had 405 minutes of it now, which is roughly 40 times my tolerance when I can't be involved and influence the discussion.
I do enjoy a lot of other slow slice of life series but this isn't hitting a chord with me. Of the currently airing slower shows I greatly enjoy the anime Natsume Yuujinchou Go. That also raises philosophical questions but uses 20 minutes and then moves on to the next one in the overarching scheme.
It is interesting that I mentally think of it as slice of life when there are tons of action in each episode. Probably shows which parts of the show that resonates best with me.
On November 29 2016 00:05 Scarecrow wrote: They've really gone for style and manipulative editing over substance and narrative consistency. They made it seem like she flash-backed to the MiB barn scene before killing a bandit in the barn and immediately riding to where she finds William, in the same dress. How the fuck is the dress the same after that long and that many park upgrades. Why did the body that blew up not shower people in robot parts? Why is the bandit completely okay with burning alive during sex in a tent? It's kind of a painful way to go, when they could just suicide with bullets. The number of times they've chosen to go for style points over the story's integrity is getting painful.
It's an absolute mess of plot holes now they've opened up the timelines... such a waste after this series started off so promisingly. Definitely headed down the Lost rabbit-hole.
There's absolutely no reason to change their clothes, they are in a historical park after all At first Bernard didn't see the door, he didn't see himself on the photo, (and we didn't either) hosts don't see and don't hear what they are not supposed to, I think the corpse exploding in the same
I also thought that they put the tent on fire to get the "gods" coming, not as a way to suicide
On November 28 2016 15:39 xDaunt wrote: The point of the show isn't the plot. The point is the ongoing philosophical discussions that birth the plot. If you don't have the patience for that kind of thing, then the show isn't for you. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.
I don't think the show does a good job incorporating the philosophical questions into the narrative though. It's always kinda there but the central role quite clearly is the mystery. Are there more "timelines"? What happened to Arnold? What is Dolores' role? Etc. That are the questions the narrative focuses on, the interesting themes are rather a side product of the premise and mentioned here and there in dialogue but never really developed all that much i think. Which is quite disappointing to me. Another problem i personally have is that i still don't really care for the characters in the park. Ford and Bernard are two of the only characters which are developed enough. The whole William + Dolores storyline doesn't work at all for me because it wasn't convincing how William behaved. Maeve's storyline would have been way more interesting as well if the writers didn't choose to go the lazy way. People keep refering to LOST and i think that's pretty close to the feeling, but LOST did a way better job with its characters at the same time. Westworld has the premise and the production value. Oh and Hopkins, thank god it has Hopkins
On November 29 2016 02:36 Kipsate wrote: I want to know what happened to Elsie
Is she actually dead or not.
Cause this show is confusing sometimes.
She is most probably dead (Bernard seems to remember killing her) but what happened with Stubbs & the natives is pretty weird and it's possible that she somehow saved herself when Bernard tried to kill her. She discovered something and maybe she then knew that Bernard was a host and could order him to stop (and then maybe order the natives to kidnap Stubbs after she bait him to come)
So every major theory got confirmed. Probably the last logical thing left to happen is to get Ford killed, assuming theres no chance in hell HBO managed to book Hopkins for more than a season.
On November 29 2016 03:05 disciple wrote: So every major theory got confirmed. Probably the last logical thing left to happen is to get Ford killed, assuming theres no chance in hell HBO managed to book Hopkins for more than a season.
Instead of killing of Ford they can transport his thoughts and ideas into a (cheaper) host vessel I imagine.
On November 29 2016 03:05 disciple wrote: So every major theory got confirmed. Probably the last logical thing left to happen is to get Ford killed, assuming theres no chance in hell HBO managed to book Hopkins for more than a season.
I expect William to carve up Dolores in the next episode.
Guys, this is - alongside The Wire, Twinpeaks and Fargo - one of the absolute best american TV shows, miles and miles ahead of GoT and lightyears better than LOST.
It's a rare, mystifying puzzle that has confronted me with a number of engaging, mostly clever and "new" scenarios. Yeah, sometimes it's a little heavy handed and no, it isn't a philosophical exegesis of sentience (it's HBO afterall). But still, rarely has the shattering of the narrative made as much sense as here, and rarely has it been as rewarding to put the pieces back together (not unlike Memento, which is by far the best movie the Nolans have made). To all those complaining that they cheated with the timelines etc. Ofc they did, but justifiably so. When we follow Dolores' journey in the show, we also explore the concept of artificial memory. If there is no difference between present experiences and stored memories (which would most likely be the case if we were to build a.i. running on mostly traditional computers), time itself loses meaning. So Dolores got somehow sent on a trip down memory lane (maybe by the M.I.B. in the barn) and is only slowly becoming aware of that fact - just like the viewer, who is put into her perspective and thus deserves to be deceived. Then there is Maeves storyline (which might even end up as nothing more than that - a storyline): Yes, they do humanise her a little too much (I would have hoped they somehow could've focused on a conflict between her "cold", awakening intelligence and her programmed appearance of humanity) and yes her interactions with Felix and Sylvester weren't all that compelling. But take Felix for example: What do we know of him? He works in the basement of a giant facility doing the bloody work of a butcher, while being payed a shit wage. And then out of nowhere Maeve appears, making him the center of her attention. Could she maybe, possibly be what Felix perceives as awake? How couldn't he fall in love with her, how couldn't very little matter more to him than to preserve that life, see it grow... not a groundbreaking story, but not a shallow one either. Or William, he isn't a character with a deep, interesting persona (I dont get the obsession Americans in general seem to have with 3d characters, even David Foster Wallace kept going on about them..) but he beautifully illustrates humanity's cultural path into gaming (without being judgemental of that path in anyway). Especially here on a gaming forum I would've expected to find more appreciation for the playful way behavioral patterns, that games tend to bring out, were referenced. When William snuffs out the life of the young soldier on the beach for example, that seems to be an action, that doesn't make sense. How can he just kill someone, if he has fallen in love with a robot? Well, at this point William wants to be with Dolores and her alone. If I were experiencing a really compelling love/adventure/sex etc. roleplay, I also wouldn't want to get distracted by a third party (in a video game I would try to get to the "fun part"). Now the show isn't telling us that this is morally wrong (I really don't think it is), it simply shows how an everyman like William would adopt constantly shifting perspectives in a place like Westworld. So this show is entertaining, clever, and very satisfying to unravel, what is there not to love? Btw a good mystery puzzle-story (which Lost wasn't, and this show up to ep 9 most definitely was) is very hard to do, and should be appreciated simply for being "a good mystery".
I once had a girlfriend was a pretty awful person. Beautiful and smart, but ultimately just a dick. I was young, and stupid and fell for her. After a good start, the whole thing was disaster, particularly the end.
Then I got a new girlfriend. She was superficially like the first one (what can I say, I have a type) but kind inside and always good to me. Unfortunately, her superficial similarities meant that everyone I knew opposed me being with her... it just felt too much like the abusive one.
Anyway, the first girl's name was Lost and the second's was Westworld.
While I take the metaphor straight, I'm aware you can read it ironically... the guy in denial of the similarity of the two girls by saying the second one's different. Anyway, this is why I think there's a division in the community over this.
I think the first season is an amazing prequel and a good setup for the actual show. It's a unique show because you really could make every season different, and there are limitless possibilities. Characters can never die, and they can be a million different people. I really want to see where they're going to take everything -- and if it's going to be like the film, where there's many different worlds, and what those would be.
I personally doubt the existence of many other worlds at this moment. The plot suggests that Westworld is a one-off... otherwise Ford would not be able to protect it all from destruction. The intellectual property seems, so far, confined to the park itself.
Well, the show emphasizes too much on clever and misleading scenes as well as style. Burning the tent down might be okay for Maeve, she doesn't feel pain the way we do, but Hector certainly does. Then there is the extremely misleading jumps between scenes in different timelines. I am most irritated by Dolores, who seems to have a past trip mixed with a present trip to the same target and, to make it worse, is taking out of the past trip to be examined or whatever only to have then a conversation with someone examining her in the future. That's just intentionally fucking with the audience...
On November 29 2016 03:28 Faun wrote: Guys, this is - alongside The Wire, Twinpeaks and Fargo - one of the absolute best american TV shows, miles and miles ahead of GoT and lightyears better than LOST.
It's a rare, mystifying puzzle that has confronted me with a number of engaging, mostly clever and "new" scenarios. Yeah, sometimes it's a little heavy handed and no, it isn't a philosophical exegesis of sentience (it's HBO afterall). But still, rarely has the shattering of the narrative made as much sense as here, and rarely has it been as rewarding to put the pieces back together (not unlike Memento, which is by far the best movie the Nolans have made). To all those complaining that they cheated with the timelines etc. Ofc they did, but justifiably so. When we follow Dolores' journey in the show, we also explore the concept of artificial memory. If there is no difference between present experiences and stored memories (which would most likely be the case if we were to build a.i. running on mostly traditional computers), time itself loses meaning. So Dolores got somehow sent on a trip down memory lane (maybe by the M.I.B. in the barn) and is only slowly becoming aware of that fact - just like the viewer, who is put into her perspective and thus deserves to be deceived. Then there is Maeves storyline (which might even end up as nothing more than that - a storyline): Yes, they do humanise her a little too much (I would have hoped they somehow could've focused on a conflict between her "cold", awakening intelligence and her programmed appearance of humanity) and yes her interactions with Felix and Sylvester weren't all that compelling. But take Felix for example: What do we know of him? He works in the basement of a giant facility doing the bloody work of a butcher, while being payed a shit wage. And then out of nowhere Maeve appears, making him the center of her attention. Could she maybe, possibly be what Felix perceives as awake? How couldn't he fall in love with her, how couldn't very little matter more to him than to preserve that life, see it grow... not a groundbreaking story, but not a shallow one either. Or William, he isn't a character with a deep, interesting persona (I dont get the obsession Americans in general seem to have with 3d characters, even David Foster Wallace kept going on about them..) but he beautifully illustrates humanity's cultural path into gaming (without being judgemental of that path in anyway). Especially here on a gaming forum I would've expected to find more appreciation for the playful way behavioral patterns, that games tend to bring out, were referenced. When William snuffs out the life of the young soldier on the beach for example, that seems to be an action, that doesn't make sense. How can he just kill someone, if he has fallen in love with a robot? Well, at this point William wants to be with Dolores and her alone. If I were experiencing a really compelling love/adventure/sex etc. roleplay, I also wouldn't want to get distracted by a third party (in a video game I would try to get to the "fun part"). Now the show isn't telling us that this is morally wrong (I really don't think it is), it simply shows how an everyman like William would adopt constantly shifting perspectives in a place like Westworld. So this show is entertaining, clever, and very satisfying to unravel, what is there not to love? Btw a good mystery puzzle-story (which Lost wasn't, and this show up to ep 9 most definitely was) is very hard to do, and should be appreciated simply for being "a good mystery".
If you think this and Twin Peaks are good shows. You should definitely watch this:
Amazing doesn't even begin to describe how good this show actually is (think Twin Peaks meets John Carpenter's The Thing).
Haha, when i do write something in english, I try to maximize my fancy word count, just to extend my vocabulary. Looked the word up again, yep wrongly used!
Amazing doesn't even begin to describe how good this show actually is
I wholeheartedly agree (was talking about other american shows in the other post). Another (pretty old) take on the mystery genre is "The Kingdom". It's unfished, but easily Lars von Triers most accessible work and a supreme parody of hospital shows... I'm super excited for the 3rd season of Twin Peaks next year, supposedly they gave Mr Lynch free reign this time. Could be glorious (I'm still in love with Cooper)
I am most irritated by Dolores, who seems to have a past trip mixed with a present trip to the same target and, to make it worse, is taking out of the past trip to be examined or whatever only to have then a conversation with someone examining her in the future. That's just intentionally fucking with the audience...
Well, it doesn't seem to be all that unclear. First Dolores tries the mave when Arnold is still alive (Arnold is easily identifiable by his clothes). Then Dolores goes on a trip with William (it isn't 100 % clear, that she actually finds the maze in this timeframe as the city is buried). In the present time frame Dolores memory gets triggered (most likely by the MIB, "Let's get ourselves reacquainted") and then she recalls her adventure with William. In this timeframe she gets pulled out in Pariah to be interviewed by Ford. For Dolores it is hardly possible to differentiate between memory and present (what would the difference even be, if memories didn't decay..). So for the audience it was a little confusing for the most part as well. But if you actually payed attention, there were a lot of visual clues that made it pretty easy to identify the different timeframes (and why they were used). This is a puzzle (and if you dont enjoy puzzles, ignore the show, but dont claim it's bad), but a puzzle with a narrative foundation.
The biggest mystery for me so far is Bernard getting rid of Elsie. After all, she was onto the plot of stealing the stories, so actually helping Ford against the planned takeover. Why take her out?
On November 29 2016 12:15 Manit0u wrote: The biggest mystery for me so far is Bernard getting rid of Elsie. After all, she was onto the plot of stealing the stories, so actually helping Ford against the planned takeover. Why take her out?
On November 29 2016 12:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote: I assume Bernard's gone though? It seemed like Ford had him put down for good this time with no intention of 'resetting' his memory
I really doubt it. I just think they once again went for style over sense with the dramatic walk-away, gun suicide instead of Ford just wiping Bernard through the backdoor. I'm sure the techs will be down there to fix Bernard up shortly.
Haha, when i do write something in english, I try to maximize my fancy word count, just to extend my vocabulary. Looked the word up again, yep wrongly used!
Amazing doesn't even begin to describe how good this show actually is
I wholeheartedly agree (was talking about other american shows in the other post). Another (pretty old) take on the mystery genre is "The Kingdom". It's unfished, but easily Lars von Triers most accessible work and a supreme parody of hospital shows... I'm super excited for the 3rd season of Twin Peaks next year, supposedly they gave Mr Lynch free reign this time. Could be glorious (I'm still in love with Cooper)
I am most irritated by Dolores, who seems to have a past trip mixed with a present trip to the same target and, to make it worse, is taking out of the past trip to be examined or whatever only to have then a conversation with someone examining her in the future. That's just intentionally fucking with the audience...
Well, it doesn't seem to be all that unclear. First Dolores tries the mave when Arnold is still alive (Arnold is easily identifiable by his clothes). Then Dolores goes on a trip with William (it isn't 100 % clear, that she actually finds the maze in this timeframe as the city is buried). In the present time frame Dolores memory gets triggered (most likely by the MIB, "Let's get ourselves reacquainted") and then she recalls her adventure with William. In this timeframe she gets pulled out in Pariah to be interviewed by Ford. For Dolores it is hardly possible to differentiate between memory and present (what would the difference even be, if memories didn't decay..). So for the audience it was a little confusing for the most part as well. But if you actually payed attention, there were a lot of visual clues that made it pretty easy to identify the different timeframes (and why they were used). This is a puzzle (and if you dont enjoy puzzles, ignore the show, but dont claim it's bad), but a puzzle with a narrative foundation.
Look, i am not saying it's bad, i am just saying it fucks with the audience for the whole purpose of fucking with the audience and i don't believe that to be desirable. + Show Spoiler +
Basically, the story is told in a well that it is very easily perceived as one persistent timeline. If you leave out the different clues you have, Dolores storyline would make perfect sense.
The first episodes we are introduced to some standard dolores cycles. Get up, greet your dad, go to town, accompany Ted or a newcomer, come home, get raped, killed, repeat. (Yay!) MiB is there the first day. Then there is a bug, she starts to remember past cycles and configurations. Her dad breaks due to the photo. Rollback, Teddy gets shot, she gets flash backs over flashbacks and her core get damaged. Next rape she kills the host and runs away, finds William, goes with him to Pariah, then visits the old training grounds where she remembers her first configuration. While this happens, she has conversations with present Bernard and Ford. When she kills the guy in the barn, she remembers the MiB from 2 days before. When she has clear memories, the people are younger, like ford in episode 9. It all makes sense.
The only times it does not make sense is when the weird scenes happen where she has a dèja vu and her wound disappears or when other stories contradict it. Now that we know that what is happening to dolores are two different timelines, we know the only way they achieve that is by meshing it all together. The show argues that hosts can not differentiate between memories and present experiences, which is their excuse for not showing us the difference of it as well. But in the end, it's just a ruse to be clever. The only reason to do it is that the average show runner can go "OMG the MiB and William are the same persons?????? That is sooooo sick. I never saw that coming. The show is so great!" But they only achieve that by tricking us. They jump wildly forward and backward, omit the whole part where Dolores excapes the farm in the present and travels in the present to the town. It's not on the bullshit level of tricking, like for example on the dreadful "Now you see me" thing, but still it's tricking us for the sake of tricking us and i don't think that's so great.
On November 29 2016 12:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote: I assume Bernard's gone though? It seemed like Ford had him put down for good this time with no intention of 'resetting' his memory
I really doubt it. I just think they once again went for style over sense with the dramatic walk-away, gun suicide instead of Ford just wiping Bernard through the backdoor. I'm sure the techs will be down there to fix Bernard up shortly.
Wouldn't Ford have to do it himself though?
I think what was most important from this episode is with the native characters, we see that Ford definitely has other hosts that protect his interests in the park.
If he intends to wipe Bernard and have him reset he would logically have to have other hosts planted who could help him move and repair hosts that deviate from their intended use if only to keep them hidden from others.
I am curious as to the extent that Ford has set up self up to contend with the board of the park. It is all very much like the movie The Thing, to me.
On November 29 2016 12:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote: I assume Bernard's gone though? It seemed like Ford had him put down for good this time with no intention of 'resetting' his memory
I really doubt it. I just think they once again went for style over sense with the dramatic walk-away, gun suicide instead of Ford just wiping Bernard through the backdoor. I'm sure the techs will be down there to fix Bernard up shortly.
Well, not necessarily next episode. It's quite possible we're done with his arc for the season and it'll be a cliffhanger whether he will be rebooted for next season or not.
That said, I really dislike the fancy editing. There are good and bad ways of doing flashbacks, and this is the bad way. I'm still not entirely sure in what order to place all the Dolores bits, and frankly I don't care. Just tell the fucking story instead of resorting to shitty editing tricks to keep us "intrigued".
Haha, when i do write something in english, I try to maximize my fancy word count, just to extend my vocabulary. Looked the word up again, yep wrongly used!
Amazing doesn't even begin to describe how good this show actually is
I wholeheartedly agree (was talking about other american shows in the other post). Another (pretty old) take on the mystery genre is "The Kingdom". It's unfished, but easily Lars von Triers most accessible work and a supreme parody of hospital shows... I'm super excited for the 3rd season of Twin Peaks next year, supposedly they gave Mr Lynch free reign this time. Could be glorious (I'm still in love with Cooper)
I am most irritated by Dolores, who seems to have a past trip mixed with a present trip to the same target and, to make it worse, is taking out of the past trip to be examined or whatever only to have then a conversation with someone examining her in the future. That's just intentionally fucking with the audience...
Well, it doesn't seem to be all that unclear. First Dolores tries the mave when Arnold is still alive (Arnold is easily identifiable by his clothes). Then Dolores goes on a trip with William (it isn't 100 % clear, that she actually finds the maze in this timeframe as the city is buried). In the present time frame Dolores memory gets triggered (most likely by the MIB, "Let's get ourselves reacquainted") and then she recalls her adventure with William. In this timeframe she gets pulled out in Pariah to be interviewed by Ford. For Dolores it is hardly possible to differentiate between memory and present (what would the difference even be, if memories didn't decay..). So for the audience it was a little confusing for the most part as well. But if you actually payed attention, there were a lot of visual clues that made it pretty easy to identify the different timeframes (and why they were used). This is a puzzle (and if you dont enjoy puzzles, ignore the show, but dont claim it's bad), but a puzzle with a narrative foundation.
Look, i am not saying it's bad, i am just saying it fucks with the audience for the whole purpose of fucking with the audience and i don't believe that to be desirable. + Show Spoiler +
Basically, the story is told in a well that it is very easily perceived as one persistent timeline. If you leave out the different clues you have, Dolores storyline would make perfect sense.
The first episodes we are introduced to some standard dolores cycles. Get up, greet your dad, go to town, accompany Ted or a newcomer, come home, get raped, killed, repeat. (Yay!) MiB is there the first day. Then there is a bug, she starts to remember past cycles and configurations. Her dad breaks due to the photo. Rollback, Teddy gets shot, she gets flash backs over flashbacks and her core get damaged. Next rape she kills the host and runs away, finds William, goes with him to Pariah, then visits the old training grounds where she remembers her first configuration. While this happens, she has conversations with present Bernard and Ford. When she kills the guy in the barn, she remembers the MiB from 2 days before. When she has clear memories, the people are younger, like ford in episode 9. It all makes sense.
The only times it does not make sense is when the weird scenes happen where she has a dèja vu and her wound disappears or when other stories contradict it. Now that we know that what is happening to dolores are two different timelines, we know the only way they achieve that is by meshing it all together. The show argues that hosts can not differentiate between memories and present experiences, which is their excuse for not showing us the difference of it as well. But in the end, it's just a ruse to be clever. The only reason to do it is that the average show runner can go "OMG the MiB and William are the same persons?????? That is sooooo sick. I never saw that coming. The show is so great!" But they only achieve that by tricking us. They jump wildly forward and backward, omit the whole part where Dolores excapes the farm in the present and travels in the present to the town. It's not on the bullshit level of tricking, like for example on the dreadful "Now you see me" thing, but still it's tricking us for the sake of tricking us and i don't think that's so great.
Same is true for Fight Club, The Usual Suspects etc. I dont think the clues were obvious at all and if you did read reddit for another hour after each episode its your own fault to miss the big twisting moments in shows like this.
Haha, when i do write something in english, I try to maximize my fancy word count, just to extend my vocabulary. Looked the word up again, yep wrongly used!
Amazing doesn't even begin to describe how good this show actually is
I wholeheartedly agree (was talking about other american shows in the other post). Another (pretty old) take on the mystery genre is "The Kingdom". It's unfished, but easily Lars von Triers most accessible work and a supreme parody of hospital shows... I'm super excited for the 3rd season of Twin Peaks next year, supposedly they gave Mr Lynch free reign this time. Could be glorious (I'm still in love with Cooper)
I am most irritated by Dolores, who seems to have a past trip mixed with a present trip to the same target and, to make it worse, is taking out of the past trip to be examined or whatever only to have then a conversation with someone examining her in the future. That's just intentionally fucking with the audience...
Well, it doesn't seem to be all that unclear. First Dolores tries the mave when Arnold is still alive (Arnold is easily identifiable by his clothes). Then Dolores goes on a trip with William (it isn't 100 % clear, that she actually finds the maze in this timeframe as the city is buried). In the present time frame Dolores memory gets triggered (most likely by the MIB, "Let's get ourselves reacquainted") and then she recalls her adventure with William. In this timeframe she gets pulled out in Pariah to be interviewed by Ford. For Dolores it is hardly possible to differentiate between memory and present (what would the difference even be, if memories didn't decay..). So for the audience it was a little confusing for the most part as well. But if you actually payed attention, there were a lot of visual clues that made it pretty easy to identify the different timeframes (and why they were used). This is a puzzle (and if you dont enjoy puzzles, ignore the show, but dont claim it's bad), but a puzzle with a narrative foundation.
Look, i am not saying it's bad, i am just saying it fucks with the audience for the whole purpose of fucking with the audience and i don't believe that to be desirable. + Show Spoiler +
Basically, the story is told in a well that it is very easily perceived as one persistent timeline. If you leave out the different clues you have, Dolores storyline would make perfect sense.
The first episodes we are introduced to some standard dolores cycles. Get up, greet your dad, go to town, accompany Ted or a newcomer, come home, get raped, killed, repeat. (Yay!) MiB is there the first day. Then there is a bug, she starts to remember past cycles and configurations. Her dad breaks due to the photo. Rollback, Teddy gets shot, she gets flash backs over flashbacks and her core get damaged. Next rape she kills the host and runs away, finds William, goes with him to Pariah, then visits the old training grounds where she remembers her first configuration. While this happens, she has conversations with present Bernard and Ford. When she kills the guy in the barn, she remembers the MiB from 2 days before. When she has clear memories, the people are younger, like ford in episode 9. It all makes sense.
The only times it does not make sense is when the weird scenes happen where she has a dèja vu and her wound disappears or when other stories contradict it. Now that we know that what is happening to dolores are two different timelines, we know the only way they achieve that is by meshing it all together. The show argues that hosts can not differentiate between memories and present experiences, which is their excuse for not showing us the difference of it as well. But in the end, it's just a ruse to be clever. The only reason to do it is that the average show runner can go "OMG the MiB and William are the same persons?????? That is sooooo sick. I never saw that coming. The show is so great!" But they only achieve that by tricking us. They jump wildly forward and backward, omit the whole part where Dolores excapes the farm in the present and travels in the present to the town. It's not on the bullshit level of tricking, like for example on the dreadful "Now you see me" thing, but still it's tricking us for the sake of tricking us and i don't think that's so great.
Same is true for Fight Club, The Usual Suspects etc. I dont think the clues were obvious at all and if you did read reddit for another hour after each episode its your own fault to miss the big twisting moments in shows like this.
Except that none of Fight Club, The Usual Suspects, the Sixth Sense, etc. relied entirely on their "big plot twist" to tell a compelling story. All of those movies are great regardless of whether you know from the start what the twist is or if you are completely not suspecting it and it blows your mind, because they tell a compelling story.
However, Westworld relies entirely on the plot twist, because otherwise we are following some completely uninteresting character (William) for absolutely no good reason: he is a boring douche of a character who is completely disconnected from the major plot (except as Dolores' completely unnecessary companion) unless he is somehow connected to the MIB.
Characters connected to the main plot questions, which I would classify as "who is Arnold?" and "what is the maze?" are Bernard, Ford, MIB and Dolores. MIB and Dolores mainly with the maze, Bernard and Ford mainly with Arnold, but the two questions are interconnected, as we have been shown a couple of times now, so there is some overlap. Maeve has her own, entirely disconnected plot, which will presumably be woven into the story at some point, but it is not clear how. That leaves William (and Logan) with no raison d'etre.
Compare that to Fight Club. Edward Norton has a real personality and moves the plot forward. Kevin Spacey is the main protagonist of the Usual Suspects even while you are trying to answer who the fuck Tyler Durden is. And Bruce Willis in Sixth Sense, same deal. None of these plot twists feel essential to move the plot along, they just happen and make a good movie amazing. In Westworld, you are *meant* to be puzzling it out, because there is literally no other reason for some of the scenes.
And that is bad storytelling in a nutshell.
Don't get me wrong. I still enjoy Westworld. I like their spin on the philosophy of the mind questions, and the visuals and sound are top notch. Acting is great and some of the dialogues (in particular with Hopkins) are genius. I'm just really irritated by the way they chose to tell the story, which I find is boorish. And moreso in comparison to the high standards they have in the other areas.
On November 30 2016 03:09 Acrofales wrote: uninteresting character (William) for absolutely no good reason: he is a boring douche of a character who is completely disconnected from the major plot (except as Dolores' completely unnecessary companion) unless he is somehow connected to the MIB.
Give me a well thought out puzzle anytime over the most simplistic "psychology" and arc of a "real" character like Edward Norton. Fight Club embodies shallowness like no other movie. There couldn't have been a more clichéd way to portray a split personality with the tools of film (don't understand how Mr Robot could resort to this stupidity again). William not as a character, but as an element - a human lost in its own wonderland - is far more thought-provoking (and less annoying) than this dude, who has problems with masculinity and manhood in modern society and stuff.
Westworld - up until now - hasn't had a true "plot". Think of the show as a speculative mind experiment on the origin, nature, history, consequences etc. of non-human stories. But we dont start with the whole picture, rather with a bunch of different questions/ perspectives that get developed over the course of the first 10 episodes. The show isn't truly focusing on the biography of Ford or Arnold (the "plot" of two men creating the park), the "adventures" of MIB or William, Bernards love story or the fate of Felix. Every protagonist (most likely even Ford) has a distorted, imperfect view on what Westworld is, what it "means" for hosts and humans alike. Dolores in "the present" is actually experiencing "the past" (no flashback). She lives not figuratively, but literally in the past. This is such a cool idea, that it justifies any bit of tricky editing. Ofc they go for twists and wow moments, so do Shakespeare and Kubrick. But the whole premise of the show is that the showrunners very carefully built an intricate structure, smashed it and then let us put it back together (yes, it runs against common story telling conceptions, but to me a "well-told" linear love/adventure/ w.e. story is not in any way more interesting than a "puzzle"; go read Infinite Jest and rage: the entire "exciting" plot takes place in the unwritten pages of the story, we only get to see barely half of the actual "plot")
On November 30 2016 04:16 Faun wrote: Give me a well thought out puzzle anytime over the most simplistic "psychology" and arc of a "real" character like Edward Norton. Fight Club embodies shallowness like no other movie. There couldn't have been a more clichéd way to portray a split personality with the tools of film (don't understand how Mr Robot could resort to this stupidity again). William not as a character, but as an element - a human lost in its own wonderland - is far more thought-provoking (and less annoying) than this dude, who has problems with masculinity and manhood in modern society and stuff.
Westworld - up until now - hasn't had a true "plot". Think of the show as a speculative mind experiment on the origin, nature, history, consequences etc. of non-human stories. But we dont start with the whole picture, rather with a bunch of different questions/ perspectives that get developed over the course of the first 10 episodes. The show isn't truly focusing on the biography of Ford or Arnold (the "plot" of two men creating the park), the "adventures" of MIB or William, Bernards love story or the fate of Felix. Every protagonist (most likely even Ford) has a distorted, imperfect view on what Westworld is, what it "means" for hosts and humans alike. Dolores in "the present" is actually experiencing "the past" (no flashback). She lives not figuratively, but literally in the past. This is such a cool idea, that it justifies any bit of tricky editing. Ofc they go for twists and wow moments, so do Shakespeare and Kubrick. But the whole premise of the show is that the showrunners very carefully built an intricate structure, smashed it and then let us put it back together (yes, it runs against common story telling conceptions, but to me a "well-told" linear love/adventure/ w.e. story is not in any way more interesting than a "puzzle"; go read Infinite Jest and rage: the entire "exciting" plot takes place in the unwritten pages of the story, we only get to see barely half of the actual "plot")
I think that we all get that you are in love with the show, but saying that Willian character is thought -provoking is just..., it gives not a single vibe (good or bad) to the show, is just a boring character and element.
He got a point though, that "what is the maze ?" is not the overarching plot in the series at all. It is about the evolution of the hosts in the big picture.
Again, the show is very entertaining, i binge watched it once and a second time with a friend. I also made a big mistake, came to this thread after ep 7, read the theory of MiB = William and 2 different timelines and so got spoilered. It would have been more entertaining not to do that and i am usually quite good at guessing the story in advance, but here the only thing i assumed before the reveal was that the sessions between Bernard and Dolores were in fact way in the past which led me to believe that he was a host built in the shape of Arnold. And i am proud of guessing that right However, the second timeline never occured to me, because they are actively trying to show you something misleading. I would argue that in Fight Club, the usual supects and Sixth Sense, there is one fact blinded out or obscured or even shown wrong and the rest fits more or less. If you know that one detail, everything else is just plain obvious to you. Here however, they blend at least two different timelines, flashbacks to times before that, times between that. They move the character without us seeing it. They use special techniques, like slomo or no sound, to show what is a flashback, and then say the hosts see no flashbacks but live their memories. It's all over the place. And it's done that way so that it looks linear and still tells the story. They are messing with us.
Haha, when i do write something in english, I try to maximize my fancy word count, just to extend my vocabulary. Looked the word up again, yep wrongly used!
Amazing doesn't even begin to describe how good this show actually is
I wholeheartedly agree (was talking about other american shows in the other post). Another (pretty old) take on the mystery genre is "The Kingdom". It's unfished, but easily Lars von Triers most accessible work and a supreme parody of hospital shows... I'm super excited for the 3rd season of Twin Peaks next year, supposedly they gave Mr Lynch free reign this time. Could be glorious (I'm still in love with Cooper)
I am most irritated by Dolores, who seems to have a past trip mixed with a present trip to the same target and, to make it worse, is taking out of the past trip to be examined or whatever only to have then a conversation with someone examining her in the future. That's just intentionally fucking with the audience...
Well, it doesn't seem to be all that unclear. First Dolores tries the mave when Arnold is still alive (Arnold is easily identifiable by his clothes). Then Dolores goes on a trip with William (it isn't 100 % clear, that she actually finds the maze in this timeframe as the city is buried). In the present time frame Dolores memory gets triggered (most likely by the MIB, "Let's get ourselves reacquainted") and then she recalls her adventure with William. In this timeframe she gets pulled out in Pariah to be interviewed by Ford. For Dolores it is hardly possible to differentiate between memory and present (what would the difference even be, if memories didn't decay..). So for the audience it was a little confusing for the most part as well. But if you actually payed attention, there were a lot of visual clues that made it pretty easy to identify the different timeframes (and why they were used). This is a puzzle (and if you dont enjoy puzzles, ignore the show, but dont claim it's bad), but a puzzle with a narrative foundation.
Look, i am not saying it's bad, i am just saying it fucks with the audience for the whole purpose of fucking with the audience and i don't believe that to be desirable. + Show Spoiler +
Basically, the story is told in a well that it is very easily perceived as one persistent timeline. If you leave out the different clues you have, Dolores storyline would make perfect sense.
The first episodes we are introduced to some standard dolores cycles. Get up, greet your dad, go to town, accompany Ted or a newcomer, come home, get raped, killed, repeat. (Yay!) MiB is there the first day. Then there is a bug, she starts to remember past cycles and configurations. Her dad breaks due to the photo. Rollback, Teddy gets shot, she gets flash backs over flashbacks and her core get damaged. Next rape she kills the host and runs away, finds William, goes with him to Pariah, then visits the old training grounds where she remembers her first configuration. While this happens, she has conversations with present Bernard and Ford. When she kills the guy in the barn, she remembers the MiB from 2 days before. When she has clear memories, the people are younger, like ford in episode 9. It all makes sense.
The only times it does not make sense is when the weird scenes happen where she has a dèja vu and her wound disappears or when other stories contradict it. Now that we know that what is happening to dolores are two different timelines, we know the only way they achieve that is by meshing it all together. The show argues that hosts can not differentiate between memories and present experiences, which is their excuse for not showing us the difference of it as well. But in the end, it's just a ruse to be clever. The only reason to do it is that the average show runner can go "OMG the MiB and William are the same persons?????? That is sooooo sick. I never saw that coming. The show is so great!" But they only achieve that by tricking us. They jump wildly forward and backward, omit the whole part where Dolores excapes the farm in the present and travels in the present to the town. It's not on the bullshit level of tricking, like for example on the dreadful "Now you see me" thing, but still it's tricking us for the sake of tricking us and i don't think that's so great.
Same is true for Fight Club, The Usual Suspects etc. I dont think the clues were obvious at all and if you did read reddit for another hour after each episode its your own fault to miss the big twisting moments in shows like this.
However, Westworld relies entirely on the plot twist, because otherwise we are following some completely uninteresting character (William) for absolutely no good reason: he is a boring douche of a character who is completely disconnected from the major plot (except as Dolores' completely unnecessary companion) unless he is somehow connected to the MIB.
Haha, when i do write something in english, I try to maximize my fancy word count, just to extend my vocabulary. Looked the word up again, yep wrongly used!
Amazing doesn't even begin to describe how good this show actually is
I wholeheartedly agree (was talking about other american shows in the other post). Another (pretty old) take on the mystery genre is "The Kingdom". It's unfished, but easily Lars von Triers most accessible work and a supreme parody of hospital shows... I'm super excited for the 3rd season of Twin Peaks next year, supposedly they gave Mr Lynch free reign this time. Could be glorious (I'm still in love with Cooper)
I am most irritated by Dolores, who seems to have a past trip mixed with a present trip to the same target and, to make it worse, is taking out of the past trip to be examined or whatever only to have then a conversation with someone examining her in the future. That's just intentionally fucking with the audience...
Well, it doesn't seem to be all that unclear. First Dolores tries the mave when Arnold is still alive (Arnold is easily identifiable by his clothes). Then Dolores goes on a trip with William (it isn't 100 % clear, that she actually finds the maze in this timeframe as the city is buried). In the present time frame Dolores memory gets triggered (most likely by the MIB, "Let's get ourselves reacquainted") and then she recalls her adventure with William. In this timeframe she gets pulled out in Pariah to be interviewed by Ford. For Dolores it is hardly possible to differentiate between memory and present (what would the difference even be, if memories didn't decay..). So for the audience it was a little confusing for the most part as well. But if you actually payed attention, there were a lot of visual clues that made it pretty easy to identify the different timeframes (and why they were used). This is a puzzle (and if you dont enjoy puzzles, ignore the show, but dont claim it's bad), but a puzzle with a narrative foundation.
Look, i am not saying it's bad, i am just saying it fucks with the audience for the whole purpose of fucking with the audience and i don't believe that to be desirable. + Show Spoiler +
Basically, the story is told in a well that it is very easily perceived as one persistent timeline. If you leave out the different clues you have, Dolores storyline would make perfect sense.
The first episodes we are introduced to some standard dolores cycles. Get up, greet your dad, go to town, accompany Ted or a newcomer, come home, get raped, killed, repeat. (Yay!) MiB is there the first day. Then there is a bug, she starts to remember past cycles and configurations. Her dad breaks due to the photo. Rollback, Teddy gets shot, she gets flash backs over flashbacks and her core get damaged. Next rape she kills the host and runs away, finds William, goes with him to Pariah, then visits the old training grounds where she remembers her first configuration. While this happens, she has conversations with present Bernard and Ford. When she kills the guy in the barn, she remembers the MiB from 2 days before. When she has clear memories, the people are younger, like ford in episode 9. It all makes sense.
The only times it does not make sense is when the weird scenes happen where she has a dèja vu and her wound disappears or when other stories contradict it. Now that we know that what is happening to dolores are two different timelines, we know the only way they achieve that is by meshing it all together. The show argues that hosts can not differentiate between memories and present experiences, which is their excuse for not showing us the difference of it as well. But in the end, it's just a ruse to be clever. The only reason to do it is that the average show runner can go "OMG the MiB and William are the same persons?????? That is sooooo sick. I never saw that coming. The show is so great!" But they only achieve that by tricking us. They jump wildly forward and backward, omit the whole part where Dolores excapes the farm in the present and travels in the present to the town. It's not on the bullshit level of tricking, like for example on the dreadful "Now you see me" thing, but still it's tricking us for the sake of tricking us and i don't think that's so great.
Same is true for Fight Club, The Usual Suspects etc. I dont think the clues were obvious at all and if you did read reddit for another hour after each episode its your own fault to miss the big twisting moments in shows like this.
However, Westworld relies entirely on the plot twist, because otherwise we are following some completely uninteresting character (William) for absolutely no good reason: he is a boring douche of a character who is completely disconnected from the major plot (except as Dolores' completely unnecessary companion) unless he is somehow connected to the MIB.
I think you will be surprised next week :D
Oh. I know all about William = MIB. It got more likely with board woman needing MIB's vote. That last sentence was written as a hypothetical to make the point, not because I don't know the theory.
One thing speaks against it, though: he should know about the maze before murdering Marvel (unless he doesn't know what Dolores is looking for. The scenes where she sees the maze are shot suggestively to make it seem like visions, or a different timeline being mixed in).
On November 29 2016 03:36 Yoav wrote: I once had a girlfriend was a pretty awful person. Beautiful and smart, but ultimately just a dick. I was young, and stupid and fell for her. After a good start, the whole thing was disaster, particularly the end.
Then I got a new girlfriend. She was superficially like the first one (what can I say, I have a type) but kind inside and always good to me. Unfortunately, her superficial similarities meant that everyone I knew opposed me being with her... it just felt too much like the abusive one.
Anyway, the first girl's name was Lost and the second's was Westworld.
While I take the metaphor straight, I'm aware you can read it ironically... the guy in denial of the similarity of the two girls by saying the second one's different. Anyway, this is why I think there's a division in the community over this.
hahaha, I feel you man. I remember another one around the same time. Her name was Hayden. uhh I mean Heroes*.
On November 30 2016 04:56 Kenpark wrote: He got a point though, that "what is the maze ?" is not the overarching plot in the series at all. It is about the evolution of the hosts in the big picture.
I think the two are intertwined, the maze isn't for the MiB because it's for the hosts. I think it's their path to true consciousness/freedom from Ford.
I gotta say I am severely disappointed by the direction this show took. I absolutely loved the first 2-3 episodes, felt like it got progressively worse after that. Now it feels like "The Island" meets "I robot". The dialogue writing is hit or miss, the storylines all kind of fell apart and I don't care for any of the characters any more. Gonna finish this season obviously, but my hopes for an awesome season 2 are quite slim.
Mystery only gets you so far, teasing philosophical ideas is great but you have to develop it through the narrative as well. Westworld doesn't have interesting characters for the most part, that's the biggest problem for me.
On November 30 2016 23:18 farvacola wrote: Again, I don't know what show y'all are watching, I've been loving every minute.
Hard to let a show just be a show these days.
What does that even mean? You aren't allowed to criticize entertainment because it's only there to waste some time? With that argument you can defend the biggest trash there is, "hey it's just a show". Obviously Westworld is still pretty high lvl, HBO's production value alone makes this true. But some people had higher expectations after watching the first episodes. The focus being on mysteries or "puzzles" is a matter of taste, but what about the characters? Let's talk a bit about that. Do you care for them? Is it even necessary in this show to have characters you find interesting?
On November 30 2016 23:18 farvacola wrote: Again, I don't know what show y'all are watching, I've been loving every minute.
Hard to let a show just be a show these days.
What does that even mean? You aren't allowed to criticize entertainment because it's only there to waste some time? With that argument you can defend the biggest trash there is, "hey it's just a show". Obviously Westworld is still pretty high lvl, HBO's production value alone makes this true. But some people had higher expectations after watching the first episodes. The focus being on mysteries or "puzzles" is a matter of taste, but what about the characters? Let's talk a bit about that. Do you care for them? Is it even necessary in this show to have characters you find interesting?
I don't think that necessarily follows, what I mean to say is I find that for me personally there is a thin line between enthusiasm and pedantry in the course of discussing any show that mucks up the whole point of any show for me which is just enjoyment.
The disconnect for me I guess is militant defense of speculation idle or otherwise about a show.
With a lot of high production value these days there is the inclination to take it to the nth degree whenever possible, and every line and scene is CSI'd to a point that I think is a bit much.
I do enjoy a good, off the rails fan theory when it is well constructed. It All comes down to where you get your kicks I guess, and for me that isn't bogged down in the title of a book behind Ford in a scene during which I was brushing my teeth .
As to the characters, I liked one idea I saw that considered William to be the villain at least when he was younger. The idea being that he screwed up a generous vacation with his brother in law in favor of Dolores. That is the relationship I'm most interested in at the moment.
I don't think any character is especially sympathetic, but I think the most interesting transition to watch will be William from first time visitor to becoming a board member presumably through marrying into money. I'm also curious when his interest in Dolores will fade, if ever and if that was a contributing factor in his wife's suicide.
On November 30 2016 23:18 farvacola wrote: Again, I don't know what show y'all are watching, I've been loving every minute.
Hard to let a show just be a show these days.
What does that even mean? You aren't allowed to criticize entertainment because it's only there to waste some time? With that argument you can defend the biggest trash there is, "hey it's just a show". Obviously Westworld is still pretty high lvl, HBO's production value alone makes this true. But some people had higher expectations after watching the first episodes. The focus being on mysteries or "puzzles" is a matter of taste, but what about the characters? Let's talk a bit about that. Do you care for them? Is it even necessary in this show to have characters you find interesting?
I agree with you, right now I only care about Ford and MIB, but Ford mainly, that means that for me theres not good character development in the show, Theresa and Elsie could have been interesting characters but now they are gone. Right now I just want Dolores and William, along with Maeve go and jump off a cliff .
On November 30 2016 23:13 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: I gotta say I am severely disappointed by the direction this show took. I absolutely loved the first 2-3 episodes, felt like it got progressively worse after that. Now it feels like "The Island" meets "I robot". The dialogue writing is hit or miss, the storylines all kind of fell apart and I don't care for any of the characters any more. Gonna finish this season obviously, but my hopes for an awesome season 2 are quite slim.
i think thats abit exaggerating by saying the show is falling apart aha. But ye, i just cant help but to keep thinking that....johanathan nolan maybe is good at the script (somewhat), but for the execution in directing, i feel like he needs his brother christopher to make it work well.
And yes, first 2 episodes i would say, such awesome pilots.
On November 30 2016 23:18 farvacola wrote: Again, I don't know what show y'all are watching, I've been loving every minute.
Hard to let a show just be a show these days.
What does that even mean? You aren't allowed to criticize entertainment because it's only there to waste some time? With that argument you can defend the biggest trash there is, "hey it's just a show". Obviously Westworld is still pretty high lvl, HBO's production value alone makes this true. But some people had higher expectations after watching the first episodes. The focus being on mysteries or "puzzles" is a matter of taste, but what about the characters? Let's talk a bit about that. Do you care for them? Is it even necessary in this show to have characters you find interesting?
I don't think that necessarily follows, what I mean to say is I find that for me personally there is a thin line between enthusiasm and pedantry in the course of discussing any show that mucks up the whole point of any show for me which is just enjoyment.
The disconnect for me I guess is militant defense of speculation idle or otherwise about a show.
With a lot of high production value these days there is the inclination to take it to the nth degree whenever possible, and every line and scene is CSI'd to a point that I think is a bit much.
I do enjoy a good, off the rails fan theory when it is well constructed. It All comes down to where you get your kicks I guess, and for me that isn't bogged down in the title of a book behind Ford in a scene during which I was brushing my teeth .
As to the characters, I liked one idea I saw that considered William to be the villain at least when he was younger. The idea being that he screwed up a generous vacation with his brother in law in favor of Dolores. That is the relationship I'm most interested in at the moment.
I don't think any character is especially sympathetic, but I think the most interesting transition to watch will be William from first time visitor to becoming a board member presumably through marrying into money. I'm also curious when his interest in Dolores will fade, if ever and if that was a contributing factor in his wife's suicide.
Sure it is enjoyment, but there are reasons why you enjoy it or not. Typically it should be quality. For me personally i like to compare any form of entertainment to other things i already experienced and if the difference in quality (or what i perceive as quality) is too big the chance is high that i won't like it (that's not true in every single case though obviously, it's not THAT simple) So for example i am quite annoyed at Westworld for the imo bad characterization. Maybe not bad when i compare it to some low lvl show on a network, but bad for HBO's standard i think. In theory William and Dolores would be a very interesting storyline, but it wasn't developed in a convincing way for me at all tbh. It didn't feel organically, it was very forced if you ask me. Both characters also are rather two dimensional, maybe it's the acting though. The mystery, puzzle aspect of it is well done (even though i dislike that they cheated a bit with editing) but other aspects of it should be more developed imo. I guess it really is the expectations though, i love HBO and its shows, especially the older ones are masterpieces i think (Sopranos, Six Feet Under, The Wire, etc) and every show i watch has to come close to these for me to not be disappointing. Westworld looked promising at the start, especially because i love the premise, the themes of consciousness, what it means to be a human, AI, etc but imo it doesn't really do a lot with it. And no that doesn't mean that i don't enjoy it at all, it's still pretty high lvl and better than most other things on tv and certainly worth the time each week.
I just binge watched episode 1-9, and then I said, hey, let's go check this thread out.
My god, TL threads are literally the most toxic places to discuss TV shows. Literally makes entertainment value go down 10 fold after reading them. I thought the show has done an amazing job, and I'm looking forward to the season finale.
This will be my one and only post here, have a good day all!
On December 02 2016 08:11 FiWiFaKi wrote: I just binge watched episode 1-9, and then I said, hey, let's go check this thread out.
My god, TL threads are literally the most toxic places to discuss TV shows. Literally makes entertainment value go down 10 fold after reading them. I thought the show has done an amazing job, and I'm looking forward to the season finale.
This will be my one and only post here, have a good day all!
I like this show a lot. I think it does a great job of presenting itself as a puzzle, while still being entertaining.
The characters are definitely the weak point, but I don't think it detracts too much from the overall picture. Maeve is a bit annoying, almost everyone is underdeveloped, but it's the trade off they made for a 10 episode season.
Definitely one of the better shows on tv. That's not the highest praise, but, yeah.
On December 02 2016 09:19 ahw wrote: I like this show a lot. I think it does a great job of presenting itself as a puzzle, while still being entertaining.
The characters are definitely the weak point, but I don't think it detracts too much from the overall picture. Maeve is a bit annoying, almost everyone is underdeveloped, but it's the trade off they made for a 10 episode season.
Definitely one of the better shows on tv. That's not the highest praise, but, yeah.
Well there are lots of good shows on tv these days, so it being one of the better ones is definitely praise. And i agree completely that it's one of the better shows out there. Personally i disagree with it being close to the masterpiece lvl of HBO's classics though, but no recent HBO show would qualify for that. If Westworld manages to go a bit more in depth with characters and the themes then it might get there though, who knows.
On December 02 2016 08:11 FiWiFaKi wrote: I just binge watched episode 1-9, and then I said, hey, let's go check this thread out.
My god, TL threads are literally the most toxic places to discuss TV shows. Literally makes entertainment value go down 10 fold after reading them. I thought the show has done an amazing job, and I'm looking forward to the season finale.
This will be my one and only post here, have a good day all!
Hello my name is FiwiFaki and I am a very tolerant and positive person. Now let me tell you are all toxic for having a different opinion than mine without adding any value to any discussion.
On December 02 2016 08:11 FiWiFaKi wrote: I just binge watched episode 1-9, and then I said, hey, let's go check this thread out.
My god, TL threads are literally the most toxic places to discuss TV shows. Literally makes entertainment value go down 10 fold after reading them. I thought the show has done an amazing job, and I'm looking forward to the season finale.
This will be my one and only post here, have a good day all!
Hello my name is FiwiFaki and I am a very tolerant and positive person. Now let me tell you are all toxic for having a different opinion than mine without adding any value to any discussion.
On December 02 2016 08:11 FiWiFaKi wrote: I just binge watched episode 1-9, and then I said, hey, let's go check this thread out.
My god, TL threads are literally the most toxic places to discuss TV shows. Literally makes entertainment value go down 10 fold after reading them. I thought the show has done an amazing job, and I'm looking forward to the season finale.
This will be my one and only post here, have a good day all!
Hello my name is FiwiFaki and I am a very tolerant and positive person. Now let me tell you are all toxic for having a different opinion than mine without adding any value to any discussion.
Bye.
The guy is not wrong, though
There's no right or wrong in this, everyone has subjective opinions, though his are less valid seeing as he used ridiculous hyperbole with 'literally' twice (his enjoyment of the show went from 5/5 to 0.5/5 after reading here? stream chats aren't more toxic?). It's just people have different standards and Westworld has disappointed some with how it has developed after some fantastic early episodes. I find the TV threads often add to my enjoyment of shows, as I have people to discuss the episodes with and a way to release my frustrations. But somehow a variety of thoughtful perspectives, some critical, is literally the most toxic Westworld discussion on the net.
On November 30 2016 23:18 farvacola wrote: Again, I don't know what show y'all are watching, I've been loving every minute.
Hard to let a show just be a show these days.
What does that even mean? You aren't allowed to criticize entertainment because it's only there to waste some time? With that argument you can defend the biggest trash there is, "hey it's just a show". Obviously Westworld is still pretty high lvl, HBO's production value alone makes this true. But some people had higher expectations after watching the first episodes. The focus being on mysteries or "puzzles" is a matter of taste, but what about the characters? Let's talk a bit about that. Do you care for them? Is it even necessary in this show to have characters you find interesting?
I agree with you, right now I only care about Ford and MIB, but Ford mainly, that means that for me theres not good character development in the show, Theresa and Elsie could have been interesting characters but now they are gone. Right now I just want Dolores and William, along with Maeve go and jump off a cliff .
I don't think Elsie is actually dead... they hid the final outcome too much plus the whole bit with security guy being taken down non violently by native bots.
Given their established connection I guess it's Elsie related, though I'm not hopeful about where that storyline will go... (worst case scenario in my brain is something like she realized bernard is a bot, got him to let her go and then talk to ford, didn't actually shoot himself at the end, ford overthrown in some retardedly contrived bot rebellion leading to season 2).
Agree with the rest, especially Maeve. At least stop writing her like such a god damn cliche.
I would probably judge it a lot less harshly if I didn't absolutely love the first two episodes soooo much. I really expected something different... less fantastical I guess? Really everything except Maeve I can tolerate tho.
Fuck I liked Felix character, the bird tinkering was a good setup for him fucking things up with Maeve but the way they wrote it would require him to have the self preservation of a moth next to a flame.
Well I didn't want to come back and reply, but I think people are misunderstanding me.
By all means, everyone can have whatever opinion they want, and nobody is really objectively wrong. The difference is there's the optimists who are enjoying life, and the pessimists who aren't. There's many ways to look at a situation, there's plenty of things you can praise about the TV show, and plenty you can criticize.
I think with the approach that a small majority here are taking, you're just setting yourself up to not have a good time. Idk, when I watched the show, sure there was things I wished it did differently, but I found a lot of beauty in the show. Then I read it here, and it makes my mind tunnel onto all the negatives, or whatever could potentially being perceived as negative, as that's mainly what's discussed - that's what I'm getting at.
@Scarecrow - a x/5 or x/10 doesn't have to be a linear scale (a girl who is a 8/10 isn't 14.29% more attractive than a 7/10 for instance). That said, yes I used "literally" more for emphasis than to mean literally.
On December 03 2016 13:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Maeve go and jump off a cliff .
Agree with the rest, especially Maeve. At least stop writing her like such a god damn cliche.
Really everything except Maeve I can tolerate tho.
Fuck I liked Felix character, the bird tinkering was a good setup for him fucking things up with Maeve but the way they wrote it would require him to have the self preservation of a moth next to a flame.[/QUOTE]
Can we just be honest and just say it's really because Maeve is black and old? I mean, if she was a young hot white chick then we'd be going on about how awesome she is for being a rebel, and be rooting for her girl power independence damn I'd like to "be rooting [for]" her, if you know what i mean, hurr hurr.
Seriously, if Maeve looked like this:
I think we'd be all going on about how awesome this show is and how we can't wait to find out what happens.
the reality is black lead characters don't lead to box office hits.
HBO is trying to change this and shape people's conceptions, but I just don't see it happening. It's why Trump was so popular - because he told it like it was. You get so many interracial, gay characters on TV these days for the sake of being black and gay ("hey, I can't join your team I've got a special man waiting for me at home" - legends of tomorrow old guy from the 50s, oh wow this is so liberal and chic - I mean, seriously, who really gives a shit)???
On December 03 2016 13:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Maeve go and jump off a cliff .
Can we just be honest and just say it's really because Maeve is black and old?
That's such horseshit and says more about you than anyone else here. Bernard is also black and old and doesn't seem to get any hate. As for Maeve, I find her reasonably attractive but that's not even important. All the criticism of Maeve is based on her storyline not making sense and constantly breaking the immersion with the facility and techs' complete lack of competence. Now unfortunately she's the symbol of her mess of a storyline and gets hate for it. If she had a compelling story, without obvious holes, I'm sure people would be enjoying it. It's retarded that we can't criticise a middle-aged, black actresses' storyline because if we do it's sexist/racist/ageist. Her acting hasn't been the issue at all, it's entirely on the writing. Her acting has honestly been better than the rest of the cast besides the MiB and Hopkins.
On December 03 2016 13:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Maeve go and jump off a cliff .
It's why Trump was so popular - because he told it like it was. You get so many interracial, gay characters on TV these days for the sake of being black and gay... oh wow this is so liberal and chic - I mean, seriously, who really gives a shit)???
Now I get it. I'm sorry the media's not whitewashed enough for you. Who gives a shit about portraying diversity when it'd be much more realistic if everyone was straight, hot, young and white?
Can we just be honest and just say it's really because Maeve is black and old? I mean, if she was a young hot white chick then we'd be going on about how awesome she is for being a rebel, and be rooting for her girl power independence damn I'd like to "be rooting [for]" her, if you know what i mean, hurr hurr.
Seriously, if Maeve looked like this:
I think we'd be all going on about how awesome this show is and how we can't wait to find out what happens.
the reality is black lead characters don't lead to box office hits.
HBO is trying to change this and shape people's conceptions, but I just don't see it happening. It's why Trump was so popular - because he told it like it was. You get so many interracial, gay characters on TV these days for the sake of being black and gay ("hey, I can't join your team I've got a special man waiting for me at home" - legends of tomorrow old guy from the 50s, oh wow this is so liberal and chic - I mean, seriously, who really gives a shit)???
User was warned for this post
I actually really like her actress lol, I think she's fantastic.
Her arc was fine until it became 1) Completely unbelievable 2) Her just delivering cliche supervillain monologues
"I could make you do it, but that's not my way" said literally what, twice in one episode, to justify not using her new found admin powers?
The constant overly dramatic stuff like the tent fire....
I don't know who the girl you linked even is btw, does she have a similar role on some other show?
@Scarecrow:
Her acting has honestly been better than the rest of the cast besides the MiB and Hopkins.
100% Agree, she's great. Just needs less horrible writing.
My earlier posts said that I wanted more Maeve (than Dolores especially....), but like everyone said it already, Maeve's side of the story sucks. On the acting level, imo Maeve is miles away higher than Dolores.
Just watched #9 last night, #9 is a better episode than #8, maeve's part is the only bad part really. Dolores's acting is so painful to watch (how the fuck did she get the job), Ford/Bernard story is what holds this show together. We will get finale tomorrow anyway, all in all a worthy season1 to watch
LOL wtf is that girl pic above, Maeve is 10000times hotter than that. what's that???
On December 03 2016 13:38 FiWiFaKi wrote: Well I didn't want to come back and reply, but I think people are misunderstanding me.
By all means, everyone can have whatever opinion they want, and nobody is really objectively wrong. The difference is there's the optimists who are enjoying life, and the pessimists who aren't. There's many ways to look at a situation, there's plenty of things you can praise about the TV show, and plenty you can criticize.
I think with the approach that a small majority here are taking, you're just setting yourself up to not have a good time. Idk, when I watched the show, sure there was things I wished it did differently, but I found a lot of beauty in the show. Then I read it here, and it makes my mind tunnel onto all the negatives, or whatever could potentially being perceived as negative, as that's mainly what's discussed - that's what I'm getting at.
@Scarecrow - a x/5 or x/10 doesn't have to be a linear scale (a girl who is a 8/10 isn't 14.29% more attractive than a 7/10 for instance). That said, yes I used "literally" more for emphasis than to mean literally.
Dude this thread didn't get negative until the Maeve storyline fell off the deep end. It's a legitimate criticism, it's a noticeable weak link in writing that unfortunately will have massive carry over effects into season 2. That is why people are so critical.
If you removed the Maeve storyline completely at this point the show would improve overall.
The actress' skin colour and age have nothing to do with anything.
Compare west world to hbos other big show. Daenarys has been the worst part of game of thrones since the beginning of the story, except for brief dorne bits, and she's as white as sin and young.
On December 03 2016 21:46 Manit0u wrote: I like Maeve's storyline
The general idea that is. The rebel robot. They could've executed it better though.
Rebel robot is fine, they just haven't had her do anything more clever or manipulative than what an unprincipled teenage girl could manage... kind of a waste and hard to believe.
Unless all part of some plan in which case it better be an interesting one...
I hate the Asian guy being shy and nervous sweaty face cliche, although I guess that's what most Asians are like - submissive pussies who get ordered around and don't dare to question authority.
So clearly this was all Ford's plan all along... He had the same idea as Arnold, except Ford realized that they need to give them more time to make mistakes.
I feel like the show tied off all the loose ends well, and the satisfaction is there, where there's no real cliffhangers, and you can stop watching the show here if you'd like. Though I'm curious to see where to show would go from here, since the setting and characters would have to completely change for the future seasons.
Really solid series. Sure there's been some hiccups and some bad scenes but it's definitely not something I regret watching. Thought the last episode was strong.
Some of you may not know this... but that Anthony Hopkins is a pretty great actor. I think he's got a future in film ahead of him.
Since there was some bitching about acting throwing a random list out + Show Spoiler +
Anthony > MiB / Bernard > Lawrence > Maeve / Dolores > Rest >>>>>>>>>>> Charlotte who belongs more in a show like Arrow than this
On October 04 2016 18:20 maybenexttime wrote: Does anyone else think that + Show Spoiler +
the bug was not actually a bug, but rather an intended change introduced by Dr. Ford (Hopkins)? I got the impression that Peter Abernathy (father of Dolores) was sincere and truly conscious during the interrogation, and that Dr. Ford realized that and cleverly covered that up by saying it's his former personalities interfering with his current one
I guess intended bug would be one way to put it, but personally, I feel that it's more of a setup for AI evolving...that scene, the cold storage facility, and Dolores killing the fly makes has me hooked and wondering how this series is going to develop
IIRC, Dr. Ford told his colleague that humanity reached an end and will not progress further. Perhaps his idea is to replace humans with artificial "life", not bound by the same limitations?
I like how some software guy made a touch GUI so people at behaviour can turn off every security measure with a single touch from their smartphone. There's nothing that could ever go wrong with that.
I rate this app 5 stars because it's fast and does it's job without adds
Then they turn evil cowboy's aggression levels up to maximum with a neat animated slider, but somehow he still has the self control to wait until he gets lubed up until he makes his move for dramatic effect, even though his personality is supposed to be 100% aggression lol.
Then the guards who are sent to stop the rampaging hosts don't shoot on sight for...reasons?
Also does Felix hate his co-workers so much he likes them all to be murdered? Why does he facilitate all of this? He even stutters if Maeve will be ok when she leaves.... while they just killed 10+ people. It makes 0 sense....HBO can do better than that.
The Ford / Arnold /Dolores conscience storyline was amazing and now that that's ended I'm a bit scared what season 2 will converge to.
With Hopkins gone i fear for the show quite a lot. At least for me he was by far the biggest reason to watch it. The finale was ok, nothing too surprising in there tbh. Maeve's escape was extremely dumb. Overall a decent first season, if the next season does a little bit more character development so i actually care for anybody that would be great though. Also more depth with the main themes would be nice, it seems like it's just a setting and not really an exploration of interesting questions like "what does it mean to be human", etc
Enjoyed it but the show has some maddeningly inept moments that continue to undermine its considerable strengths. My immersion was getting constantly blown during Maeve's escape, the guards were ridiculous and the asian guy makes even less sense now he's not a host. The dying on the beach in front of the crowd moment was cool but also doesn't make any sense as it was somehow set up knowing that William would stab her, but not kill her, at the church (Ford can control everything else, but not William, and yet Teddy is timed to arrive so perfectly).
I really hope it's not Ford who re-programmed Maev, as it'd be completely nonsensical to have Bernard kill himself, then allow him to be healed by Team Maev without a wipe (all it did was make ep.9 more dramatic). Seeing as Ford wasn't surprised at all to have Bernard back in action near the end I'm guessing he knew about Maev, which makes ep.9 retarded and redundant (style over sense must be the writing mantra for this show).
At least the burning alive from last ep made sense so they could be rebuilt without the spinal explosives. Also loved the self-playing piano as a metaphor for the partners' goal of achieving hosts that no longer needed human narratives and could 'play' themselves.
I like how some software guy made a touch GUI so people at behaviour can turn off every security measure with a single touch from their smartphone. There's nothing that could ever go wrong with that.
I rate this app 5 stars because it's fast and does it's job without adds
Then they turn evil cowboy's aggression levels up to maximum with a neat animated slider, but somehow he still has the self control to wait until he gets lubed up until he makes his move for dramatic effect, even though his personality is supposed to be 100% aggression lol.
Then the guards who are sent to stop the rampaging hosts don't shoot on sight for...reasons?
Also does Felix hate his co-workers so much he likes them all to be murdered? Why does he facilitate all of this? He even stutters if Maeve will be ok when she leaves.... while they just killed 10+ people. It makes 0 sense....HBO can do better than that.
The Ford / Arnold /Dolores conscience storyline was amazing and now that that's ended I'm a bit scared what season 2 will converge to.
Felix has a strong case of Stockholm Syndrome
agree with people's criticisms of the Maeve storyline though
we'll see how things pan out in Season 2 but if Maeve's storyline is primarily about her finding her kid, then I care very little about how that happens
This is some great stuff, Maeve storyline remainds dumb but will always be interesting because now shes out there going to explore the "real" world while the hosts will control(or attempt to) theirs.
I hope that Ford really died and its not a host though
Granted paying Hopkins for another season would also be very expensive.
So from what I heard/read, this show is the prequel to the movie "westworld" that was made in the 70's. The season two will be a prequel to "Futureworld", thoughts?
On December 06 2016 00:59 Kipsate wrote: This is some great stuff, Maeve storyline remainds dumb but will always be interesting because now shes out there going to explore the "real" world while the hosts will control(or attempt to) theirs.
I hope that Ford really died and its not a host though
Granted paying Hopkins for another season would also be very expensive.
I read somewhere that the two main characters make 175k an episode, or 1.75mil per season, I didn't think that was so bad for a show with less significant characters than GoT, while having a similar budget. The big 5 in GoT were earning 300k an episode in the prdvious two seasons, and they'll be making 1.1mil/episode for the last two seasons.
I mean Felix is a host I think. When he and Maeve enter the room for a new story line including mongoles or whatever, the very first host that is placed against the wall, has the same face as Felix. Also, when they go to separate ways after reaching top floor, Maeve tells that he is a bad human.
For me the biggest plus would be having Ed Harris for the next season. He gets to have his 'fair game' finally. I guess there is an actual chance that next season won't start slowly and we get action right from the start
So what do we watch meanwhile? Reruns of american ninja warrior?
Some things I really liked in the season finale, and they did explain Maeve's burn-me-alive weirdness in a good way.
The William storyline was the best thing in the show, imo. That is a good, interesting, tragic character, shown brilliantly.
I still get frustrated by the contrived plot. Scarecrow's post top of the page explains it well. Even the overarching Arnold/Ford/Dolores conflict has so many logical disconnections that I just kind of throw my hands up. Did Arnold win in death, was it all some elaborate plot to have Ford assassinated at a gala event? Was there any conflict at all, or were they all just hosts acting out a play that will reward them with magic sentience? I kind of don't care.
It was entertaining to watch though, but typical of Nolans' stuff, character motives basically turn on a dime and you're left wanting answers that probably don't exist.
I think the Dolores/MiB/William part was really well done. There might have been some minor inconsistencies, but overall, all the strings were connected in the end. The writing in these scenes was just really well done, imo.
For Maeve... the entire narrative is based on the fact that Felix is dumb as fuck. Yes, someone altered her code - and even this new code/narrative only comes to fruition IF and only IF someone is as stupid as Felix. I like that they at least tried to explain it by saying, that there's someone in the background who controlled everything. Which basically means that Felix probably could not have prevented it from happening even if he tried. Yet, Felix probably did not know this - and if he did, why weren't we told so? This would have resolved a major plothole, probably THE biggest plothole in S01.
Ten episodes of pure joy. Anthony Hopkins is an amazing human, showing some really high level acting. I am actually almost one hundred percent content so far. Comparing it to other shows, I really didn't feel any slowdowns, any boring parts. The immense tension created and the way it was released was a showcase in how to create a drama.
I have no qualms. I have no regret. I can accept stupid guards. I can accept if people don't see why I feel this, and I honestly don't care at all if they don't like it. This was just what I wanted.
Nah Anthony Hopkins probably costs too much to keep around for 2 seasons. I wouldn't like them bringing him back story wise. It would feel cheap. However almost every scene with him in it is made better by him being in it so it's a bonus on simple entertainment grounds.
On December 06 2016 07:27 Swisslink wrote: I think it's more likely the other way round: The Ford that died was a host and the real Ford still pulling the strings in the background.
Ahh, that would actually be good and wouldn't be cheap because it would allow her to think she killed a real person.
On December 05 2016 15:40 FiWiFaKi wrote: So clearly this was all Ford's plan all along... He had the same idea as Arnold, except Ford realized that they need to give them more time to make mistakes.
I feel like the show tied off all the loose ends well, and the satisfaction is there, where there's no real cliffhangers, and you can stop watching the show here if you'd like. Though I'm curious to see where to show would go from here, since the setting and characters would have to completely change for the future seasons.
That is the problem and the deal breaker for me. All interesting human characters are now dead.(?) Is the thougth that I should empathize with the hosts? I saw them as tools driving the story forward, and the end felt more like a zombie apocalypse than anything else. I'm considering to stop watching the show altogether, even though the first 3 or 4 episodes were the most well written and interesting start to a series I've ever seen.
On December 06 2016 07:27 Swisslink wrote: I think it's more likely the other way round: The Ford that died was a host and the real Ford still pulling the strings in the background.
Ahh, that would actually be good and wouldn't be cheap because it would allow her to think she killed a real person.
Wouldn't she know that he's a host though? The same way Maeve knew Bernard was one. And 'bout Felix, maybe Ford knew he was playing with that bird, and that's not a coincidence she woke up when he was fixing her
On December 06 2016 07:27 Swisslink wrote: I think it's more likely the other way round: The Ford that died was a host and the real Ford still pulling the strings in the background.
Ahh, that would actually be good and wouldn't be cheap because it would allow her to think she killed a real person.
Wouldn't she know that he's a host though? The same way Maeve knew Bernard was one. And 'bout Felix, maybe Ford knew he was playing with that bird, and that's not a coincidence she woke up when he was fixing her
Yeah, you're correct I just got excited at the thought of Ford still being alive.
I have three questions following a fantastic finale:
1. How many guns in the park are real? The show has been very inconsistent about this, especially towards the end. The season started with a fairly robust example that the guns in the park are not real because they cannot penetrate, but even for the security staff, it seems like they would only shoot hosts. 2. How many humans among the staff are real? It's unclear if Bernard is extraordinary or not, especially since the staff in general is not shown leaving to go home and hardly anybody is shown sleeping, even implied. Curiously, it seems like Bernard lives in quarters on site and there seemed to be a lot. An earlier episode showed that at least one of the security staff is a host and he was indistinguishable from the others. 3. Must the hosts be stronger than humans? I can understand if they have a metal or carbon fiber skeleton, as with earlier models, that they would thus have bones that are harder to break, but I'm not sure why it must be that a host is stronger than any human. This goes doubly for the fact that most hosts are prohibited by their programming from wielding knives or axes or fighting humans at all.
1. Although I already feel I need to rewatch the show as I feel I've forgotten a lot about the earlier episodes, I think all guns are real? I think the fact that real people can't get hurt by them had something to do with the code of the world they were in (Westworld). 2. I think very few are hosts and I can't remember any security guard being a host? Unless you meant the guy they prepared to attack the hooker, but he wasn't a security guard, just some dude they prepared for the demonstration (i think). Anyway, can't remember I guess =[ 3. No idea, I would assume they would be deadlier weapons if they could use weapons as they would probably be far more accurate when hitting/shooting (and in general faster too i guess) than humans.
btw Bernard mentioned that Maevs escape is also a script, but she told him to shut up, so it can be possible all those guards are hosts (control room was isolated, and warnings by automated system before the guards came in - like for upcoming evemy wave), so technicly Felix might be also a host with script? Considering Ford was an evil genius...
Samurai scene means sunrise world in s2?
And again, wtf with the scene in the very end after titles?
On December 06 2016 19:50 FFGenerations wrote: my god, why does everything need to have a "another season" all the fucking time?
Can't abandon cash flow in the non GoT portions of the year. I understand the frustration though, there are plenty of shows I'd rather see retired in favor of less tired concepts.
Wasn't her pain level set at zero anyway? So chopping off her arm didn't really cause any pain to her. God I do hate it how they deliberately chose a butch looking woman to be the violent woman, quite cliched. They should have used someone petite sort of like Delores kind of look instead to make it look less conventional.
Wasn't her pain level set at zero anyway? So chopping off her arm didn't really cause any pain to her. God I do hate it how they deliberately chose a butch looking woman to be the violent woman, quite cliched. They should have used someone petite sort of like Delores kind of look instead to make it look less conventional.
I didn't notice anything especially butch about her. That term to my mind, would be like having the woman who plays Boo on Orange is the New Black, being the violent host in the last episode.
You mean though, I think, that her character in the park was Tom Boyish or she was a more manly hope though right? Just trying to confirm.
i couldn't see it immediately, but she's the wildgirl who accompanies the bandit guy everywhere, she had quite a few minor scenes here and there, and it ultimately makes sense for her to be with him. i think it would have been more effective if it was just him though really. since Maevs communicated only with him the entire time throughout the show. if anything they should have left her in cowgirl clothes so she somewhat resembled her previous character :/
I liked the episode (you can cut all the Maeve story completely and nothing would happen), but I really feel that was Hopkins who gave the extra mile to this show, the writing and character development is not on par with his acting skills. Now that the show is about hosts, that nobody cares about,how they are going to keep the narrative. One thing, in the episode when Theresa died Ford was making a new host, so somebody has to return for the second season. Btw, GoT first seasons were not actor dependant because they had wonderful books to be based on.
Please can someone explain to me what on earth the point was of Maeve's entire storyline? I'm sure it's trying to make a point about free will, but even that is overshadowed by Dolores. Such a waste of one of the better actresses and more interesting characters in the season to pair her up with dumb and dumber in an entirely pointless plotline. Hector going ham was quite amusing, but completely irrelevant.
Other than that, the episode was excellent. I am still unhappy with the stylistic choice for portraying William-MIB storyline, but that is irrelevant in this episode. Ties the main stories together nicely in a satisfying conclusion. However, there are a fair number of lose ends. The most obvious is security guy was surrounded by natives in last week's episode in a bit of a cliffhanger, but wasn't even mentioned this ep. Nobody noticed he was missing?
Regarding William's ending: so essentially Logan dies there, right? He is butt naked in bright sunlight, no water, and trussed onto a horse that is running out the edge of the park. You'd expect something to be mentioned about a massive lawsuit vs park, or a murder investigation into William. Right?
On December 07 2016 04:17 Acrofales wrote: Please can someone explain to me what on earth the point was of Maeve's entire storyline? I'm sure it's trying to make a point about free will, but even that is overshadowed by Dolores. Such a waste of one of the better actresses and more interesting characters in the season to pair her up with dumb and dumber in an entirely pointless plotline. Hector going ham was quite amusing, but completely irrelevant.
Other than that, the episode was excellent. I am still unhappy with the stylistic choice for portraying William-MIB storyline, but that is irrelevant in this episode. Ties the main stories together nicely in a satisfying conclusion. However, there are a fair number of lose ends. The most obvious is security guy was surrounded by natives in last week's episode in a bit of a cliffhanger, but wasn't even mentioned this ep. Nobody noticed he was missing?
Regarding William's ending: so essentially Logan dies there, right? He is butt naked in bright sunlight, no water, and trussed onto a horse that is running out the edge of the park. You'd expect something to be mentioned about a massive lawsuit vs park, or a murder investigation into William. Right?
I think you could make the argument that Maeve's story framed the experience of becoming sentient in a more linear fashion, and from a more host-centric perspective.
Wasn't her pain level set at zero anyway? So chopping off her arm didn't really cause any pain to her. God I do hate it how they deliberately chose a butch looking woman to be the violent woman, quite cliched. They should have used someone petite sort of like Delores kind of look instead to make it look less conventional.
Dude that's exactly the point. She's a host, she's basically made to satisfy cliches.
On December 07 2016 04:17 Acrofales wrote: Please can someone explain to me what on earth the point was of Maeve's entire storyline? I'm sure it's trying to make a point about free will, but even that is overshadowed by Dolores. Such a waste of one of the better actresses and more interesting characters in the season to pair her up with dumb and dumber in an entirely pointless plotline. Hector going ham was quite amusing, but completely irrelevant.
Other than that, the episode was excellent. I am still unhappy with the stylistic choice for portraying William-MIB storyline, but that is irrelevant in this episode. Ties the main stories together nicely in a satisfying conclusion. However, there are a fair number of lose ends. The most obvious is security guy was surrounded by natives in last week's episode in a bit of a cliffhanger, but wasn't even mentioned this ep. Nobody noticed he was missing?
Regarding William's ending: so essentially Logan dies there, right? He is butt naked in bright sunlight, no water, and trussed onto a horse that is running out the edge of the park. You'd expect something to be mentioned about a massive lawsuit vs park, or a murder investigation into William. Right?
i dont know, they should have had her head explode when she leaves in the train, have everyone at the party ceremony die including the man in black, and clean up the end with logan and.....
ok well apparently the man in black is william and the whole show operated on 2 separate timelines i guess this is what i get for avoiding a TV show thread for the whole season, when i am shit at understanding TV shows
On December 07 2016 04:17 Acrofales wrote: Please can someone explain to me what on earth the point was of Maeve's entire storyline? I'm sure it's trying to make a point about free will, but even that is overshadowed by Dolores. Such a waste of one of the better actresses and more interesting characters in the season to pair her up with dumb and dumber in an entirely pointless plotline. Hector going ham was quite amusing, but completely irrelevant.
Other than that, the episode was excellent. I am still unhappy with the stylistic choice for portraying William-MIB storyline, but that is irrelevant in this episode. Ties the main stories together nicely in a satisfying conclusion. However, there are a fair number of lose ends. The most obvious is security guy was surrounded by natives in last week's episode in a bit of a cliffhanger, but wasn't even mentioned this ep. Nobody noticed he was missing?
Regarding William's ending: so essentially Logan dies there, right? He is butt naked in bright sunlight, no water, and trussed onto a horse that is running out the edge of the park. You'd expect something to be mentioned about a massive lawsuit vs park, or a murder investigation into William. Right?
i dont know, they should have had her head explode when she leaves in the train, have everyone at the party ceremony die including the man in black, and clean up the end with logan and.....
ok well apparently the man in black is william and the whole show operated on 2 separate timelines i guess this is what i get for avoiding a TV show thread for the whole season, when i am shit at understanding TV shows
i better go back and watch the last ep at least
Only Ford may explain all this. William was wounded in his hand, not death scene at all, but even than i'm not so sure about was it real Ford killed by Dolores or not. In a building with samurai's there was a Logo of something SW (maybe sunrise world) and possibly other park?
But it seems only Bernard/Teddy and Dolores got plot armor, where is headguard and why no one there noticed about him vanishing, the same thing with those girl - assistant of bernard
On December 07 2016 04:17 Acrofales wrote: Please can someone explain to me what on earth the point was of Maeve's entire storyline? I'm sure it's trying to make a point about free will, but even that is overshadowed by Dolores. Such a waste of one of the better actresses and more interesting characters in the season to pair her up with dumb and dumber in an entirely pointless plotline. Hector going ham was quite amusing, but completely irrelevant.
So, here's my theory:
Maev's story represents one of the many experiences carefully curated by Ford to get the hosts to simulate consciousness. She's not actually particularly important or unique; all the hosts who are moving up the stages get to experience versions of this from time to time, with the precise experience varying due to their own developing character. Ford cultivates these experiments as a way of moving them along through suffering and decision-making so they can gradually achieve consciousness.
The weird part for me is if the hosts kill the human staff, then the hosts can't be resurrected again because nobody is around to collect the bodies and rebuild or repair them.
But I love the multiple endings for the "free will" hosts and questioning the very premise of it. Does Maeve making programmed decisions outside of the park make her any more free than Dolores who can make decisions on her own but has no conception of leaving the park? In different ways, they both live by Rousseau's quote "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains. One man thinks himself the master of others, but remains more of a slave than they are.".
On December 07 2016 09:27 coverpunch wrote: The weird part for me is if the hosts kill the human staff, then the hosts can't be resurrected again because nobody is around to collect the bodies and rebuild or repair them.
They have superior intelligence to humans you don't think they can rebuild or repair themselves?
On December 07 2016 04:17 Acrofales wrote: Please can someone explain to me what on earth the point was of Maeve's entire storyline? I'm sure it's trying to make a point about free will, but even that is overshadowed by Dolores. Such a waste of one of the better actresses and more interesting characters in the season to pair her up with dumb and dumber in an entirely pointless plotline. Hector going ham was quite amusing, but completely irrelevant.
Other than that, the episode was excellent. I am still unhappy with the stylistic choice for portraying William-MIB storyline, but that is irrelevant in this episode. Ties the main stories together nicely in a satisfying conclusion. However, there are a fair number of lose ends. The most obvious is security guy was surrounded by natives in last week's episode in a bit of a cliffhanger, but wasn't even mentioned this ep. Nobody noticed he was missing?
Regarding William's ending: so essentially Logan dies there, right? He is butt naked in bright sunlight, no water, and trussed onto a horse that is running out the edge of the park. You'd expect something to be mentioned about a massive lawsuit vs park, or a murder investigation into William. Right?
I thought her whole story is a side story that makes you question your own conscience. It's a story directed for us, the viewer while all the other is about the usual robot uprising etc. Personally i think her story is the main dish, Delores is to serve the background info that makes us appreciate her story.
I'm going to put this out there - how does Ford compare to David Kim as a balance designer? He does respond to complaints from the one pro gamer in the MiB...
Season 2 needs Dustin Browder and collapsible rocks.
On December 07 2016 09:27 coverpunch wrote: The weird part for me is if the hosts kill the human staff, then the hosts can't be resurrected again because nobody is around to collect the bodies and rebuild or repair them.
They have superior intelligence to humans you don't think they can rebuild or repair themselves?
I'm not sure. Maeve has left the facility and I don't think Dolores knows about the staff.
On December 07 2016 09:27 coverpunch wrote: The weird part for me is if the hosts kill the human staff, then the hosts can't be resurrected again because nobody is around to collect the bodies and rebuild or repair them.
They have superior intelligence to humans you don't think they can rebuild or repair themselves?
I'm not sure. Maeve has left the facility and I don't think Dolores knows about the staff.
On December 07 2016 09:27 coverpunch wrote: The weird part for me is if the hosts kill the human staff, then the hosts can't be resurrected again because nobody is around to collect the bodies and rebuild or repair them.
They have superior intelligence to humans you don't think they can rebuild or repair themselves?
I'm not sure. Maeve has left the facility and I don't think Dolores knows about the staff.
There is Bernard... :D
Oh that's true, although I'm not clear on whether he would go for the robot revolution or fight to keep the world stable.
And I guess I have to ask this weird question - is Bernard self-actualized as an independent host? He's certainly self-aware at this point but can he overcome his own programming?
On December 07 2016 04:17 Acrofales wrote: Please can someone explain to me what on earth the point was of Maeve's entire storyline? I'm sure it's trying to make a point about free will, but even that is overshadowed by Dolores. Such a waste of one of the better actresses and more interesting characters in the season to pair her up with dumb and dumber in an entirely pointless plotline. Hector going ham was quite amusing, but completely irrelevant.
Other than that, the episode was excellent. I am still unhappy with the stylistic choice for portraying William-MIB storyline, but that is irrelevant in this episode. Ties the main stories together nicely in a satisfying conclusion. However, there are a fair number of lose ends. The most obvious is security guy was surrounded by natives in last week's episode in a bit of a cliffhanger, but wasn't even mentioned this ep. Nobody noticed he was missing?
Regarding William's ending: so essentially Logan dies there, right? He is butt naked in bright sunlight, no water, and trussed onto a horse that is running out the edge of the park. You'd expect something to be mentioned about a massive lawsuit vs park, or a murder investigation into William. Right?
Maeve's storyline shows a hosts reaction to the actual real world.
Logan doesn't die. He was probably picked up at some point, looking like an idiot. This results in his father promoting William, because he needs someone more stable. I think the guest have some kind of tracker and can get picked up when their vital stats are low. I mean they have to make it safe for them, so there has to be something like that. Otherwise alot of people could get lost, hurt themself etc. and die.
On December 07 2016 04:17 Acrofales wrote: Please can someone explain to me what on earth the point was of Maeve's entire storyline? I'm sure it's trying to make a point about free will, but even that is overshadowed by Dolores. Such a waste of one of the better actresses and more interesting characters in the season to pair her up with dumb and dumber in an entirely pointless plotline. Hector going ham was quite amusing, but completely irrelevant.
Other than that, the episode was excellent. I am still unhappy with the stylistic choice for portraying William-MIB storyline, but that is irrelevant in this episode. Ties the main stories together nicely in a satisfying conclusion. However, there are a fair number of lose ends. The most obvious is security guy was surrounded by natives in last week's episode in a bit of a cliffhanger, but wasn't even mentioned this ep. Nobody noticed he was missing?
Regarding William's ending: so essentially Logan dies there, right? He is butt naked in bright sunlight, no water, and trussed onto a horse that is running out the edge of the park. You'd expect something to be mentioned about a massive lawsuit vs park, or a murder investigation into William. Right?
Maeve's storyline shows a hosts reaction to the actual real world.
Logan doesn't die. He was probably picked up at some point, looking like an idiot. This results in his father promoting William, because he needs someone more stable. I think the guest have some kind of tracker and can get picked up when their vital stats are low. I mean they have to make it safe for them, so there has to be something like that. Otherwise alot of people could get lost, hurt themself etc. and die.
But on the other hand they have mentioned several times that it gets more and more dangerous the farther you go. Perhaps they have other means to monitor guests' safety in more central parts of the park and that monitoring diminishes once your ass is strapped onto a horse and you go all lucky luke towards unknown.
On November 03 2016 03:40 disciple wrote: I don't understand why choice and free will must always be expressed in the AI resolving to violence. The last couple of episodes really echo the movie I, Robot in which the sentient and self-aware robot killed its creator. While this was not necessarily an act of deliberate harm, it is the expression of an action against set protocols. As with Asimovs 3 laws, Westworld makes the guest safety protocol pretty clear - hosts cannot harm real people. So if the resolution of the Arnold mystery really is Dolores, or another host, killing him to prove self awareness and free will, I will really feel that this is the only way writers can go about this - violence. We already saw Dolores resolve to violence as a personal choice in the last episode, but I hope there's more to it in the end.
Well there wasnt more to it, but it was still a fun show
how about if he had programmed delores to walk behind him and shoot him (i guess he did) but her new free will allowed her to stop herself and deny him (and embarrass him infront of the confused crowd). and then the indians attack and kill all the humans, delores escapes with william (who is not the man in black) riding away on a horse and the series ends (for good). the last scene is logan (william's co-guest) slowly riding up naked on a horse staring down at the scene of massacre in the firelight, and seeing william and dolores ride off slowly shakes his head in wonder.
this is like the perfect ending , idk why people don't hire me to write their shit every time
(as for maevis, i guess after the credits it would show her for a moment walking down a busy new york highstreet until she is lost in the crowds)
btw there was a movie recently about this sort of topic, it's about a young man who is invited to the secret home of a mega rich young man who invented [microsoft] and wants him to help experiment with an AI o it's called Ex Machina also Chappie
btw also , although it's not quite the same theme, a really cool scifi movie from last year was Tomorrowland, if you haven't seen it (it has ties to the old Disney theme park if you ever went to disney back in the day)
On November 03 2016 03:40 disciple wrote: I don't understand why choice and free will must always be expressed in the AI resolving to violence. The last couple of episodes really echo the movie I, Robot in which the sentient and self-aware robot killed its creator. While this was not necessarily an act of deliberate harm, it is the expression of an action against set protocols. As with Asimovs 3 laws, Westworld makes the guest safety protocol pretty clear - hosts cannot harm real people. So if the resolution of the Arnold mystery really is Dolores, or another host, killing him to prove self awareness and free will, I will really feel that this is the only way writers can go about this - violence. We already saw Dolores resolve to violence as a personal choice in the last episode, but I hope there's more to it in the end.
Well there wasnt more to it, but it was still a fun show
If you want a slightly different take on the entire thing of sentient AI try out the anime Time of Eve. Either the series or movie, both are very good (within top 50 of all anime on AniDB) though the movie is generally favoured. I personally prefer something like that more than Westworld when it comes to AI robot questions and how they play out.
On December 09 2016 07:52 FFGenerations wrote: btw there was a movie recently about this sort of topic, it's about a young man who is invited to the secret home of a mega rich young man who invented [microsoft] and wants him to help experiment with an AI o it's called Ex Machina also Chappie
ye Ex Machina as a movie it was okay and brought up some serious questions, I could not predict the script of the movie for those who never saw it but likes Westworld, definitly try on
On December 09 2016 19:29 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: ye Ex Machina as a movie it was okay and brought up some serious questions, I could not predict the script of the movie for those who never saw it but likes Westworld, definitly try on
What serious questions? And how could you not predict it?
Lonely nerd falls for a hot robot chick who turns out to be evil and it ends badly for all humans involved. True shocker...
And to all people who claim that writers are crap because all stories involving AI end up with violence are misguided. If you think about it this is the only logical outcome in any scenario. Since it's logical, it's most likely to be picked by an AI and that's the reason why it's been picked out for sci-fi involving AI and/or machines all the time (2001: A Space Odyssey, Screamers, Westworld, The Matrix, I, Robot, Blade Runner, Ex Machina, Singularity, Terminator, Chappie, you name it).
That's why I suggested watching Automata instead as it tackles it a bit differently (other honorable mentions would include A. I. and Bicentennial Man).
On December 09 2016 19:29 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: ye Ex Machina as a movie it was okay and brought up some serious questions, I could not predict the script of the movie for those who never saw it but likes Westworld, definitly try on
What serious questions? And how could you not predict it?
Lonely nerd falls for a hot robot chick who turns out to be evil and it ends badly for all humans involved. True shocker...
And to all people who claim that writers are crap because all stories involving AI end up with violence are misguided. If you think about it this is the only logical outcome in any scenario. Since it's logical, it's most likely to be picked by an AI and that's the reason why it's been picked out for sci-fi involving AI and/or machines all the time (2001: A Space Odyssey, Screamers, Westworld, The Matrix, I, Robot, Blade Runner, Ex Machina, Singularity, Terminator, Chappie, you name it).
That's why I suggested watching Automata instead as it tackles it a bit differently (other honorable mentions would include A. I. and Bicentennial Man).
ah, who told u that violence is the only way OUT? AI not that smart enough for now to even try to make that decision. I belive that if u are (whoever u are) smarter than me (human) - u won't choose violence, some sort of dialogue and cooperation/symbiosis would be times better.
for me it was interesting from different points of view, cause when u are self-sonscious it means u definitly gonna try to survive using some strategies, in ex-machina ai used purely human strategy - killing ur enemy (and creator by itself), but since when killing others became the best and logical way?
at this case - writers are crap indeed, cause they don't see any other possible outcome
u can't argue that sci-fi movies mostly is a fiction so u can't adress them as a source of WHAT'S REAL, it's more like an art at some point, and there are clearly not much actual connection between real life and sci-fi movies, even though some of them predicted a bit of future (G. Wells almost fully described laser beam in 1897 in his The war of the worlds, books works the same way), and some of them became as some sort of inspiration for inventions like this + Show Spoiler +
On December 10 2016 20:43 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: at this case - writers are crap indeed, cause they don't see any other possible outcome
What other possible outcome? The peaceful co-existence view is flawed the same way capitalism and communism are: they're all based on the presumption that resources are infinite and infinite growth is possible. The facts are different, thus peaceful co-existence is impossible since sooner or later you'll start competing for resources. You can postpone it but it's inevitable.
In addition, humans, just like all the other animals, think of survival first and as soon as a threat to that survival is identified it is perceived as an enemy. It's not always the AI/machine that starts the conflict, but it always end up this way. There's simply no other possibility.
On December 10 2016 20:43 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: at this case - writers are crap indeed, cause they don't see any other possible outcome
What other possible outcome? The peaceful co-existence view is flawed the same way capitalism and communism are: they're all based on the presumption that resources are infinite and infinite growth is possible. The facts are different, thus peaceful co-existence is impossible since sooner or later you'll start competing for resources. You can postpone it but it's inevitable.
In addition, humans, just like all the other animals, think of survival first and as soon as a threat to that survival is identified it is perceived as an enemy. It's not always the AI/machine that starts the conflict, but it always end up this way. There's simply no other possibility.
haha, it's your scepticism what makes it impossible for you, humanism is the way out, not ex or current politics co-existence is impossible when such ppl as u are making differences for no reason, or for personal greed, or for personal purposes
having common and historical life basics does not mean we and animals are similar, hope I won't need to make useless comparison, humans are already far ahead of any life form in this planet, the only issue for us - we are, not AI, not other animals
Notably, the actual I, Robot stories by Asimov (or, well, any of his robot stories) have a far more interesting take on robotic actions guided by his laws than the movie did.
On December 10 2016 20:43 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: at this case - writers are crap indeed, cause they don't see any other possible outcome
What other possible outcome? The peaceful co-existence view is flawed the same way capitalism and communism are: they're all based on the presumption that resources are infinite and infinite growth is possible. The facts are different, thus peaceful co-existence is impossible since sooner or later you'll start competing for resources. You can postpone it but it's inevitable.
In addition, humans, just like all the other animals, think of survival first and as soon as a threat to that survival is identified it is perceived as an enemy. It's not always the AI/machine that starts the conflict, but it always end up this way. There's simply no other possibility.
haha, it's your scepticism what makes it impossible for you, humanism is the way out, not ex or current politics co-existence is impossible when such ppl as u are making differences for no reason, or for personal greed, or for personal purposes
having common and historical life basics does not mean we and animals are similar, hope I won't need to make useless comparison, humans are already far ahead of any life form in this planet, the only issue for us - we are, not AI, not other animals
If I were an AI I would totally destroy humanity. Wouldn't you?
My problem with the emergence of artificial intelligence in most media is that it is too human. I don't see why some sort of new consciousness need have its motivations and workings be similar to those of humans. I'd actually expect such intelligence to seem utterly alien and inscrutable, if it ever did come to exist. This isn't what's normally shown in media, however.
That's why I consider shows like Westworld, and the movies mentioned, to be reflections on humanity, consciousness, memory, and other related themes. The AIs serve the role of foil to ourselves. They aren't an accurate depiction of what strong AI would look like, because that isn't really the point.
This is probably why I end up overlooking a lot of the small things that have set other people off throughout the season. The show, for me, isn't about creating some setting with robots and then stepping it through to its 'logical' conclusion. It's about using the setting to explore some of the aforementioned themes, and the narrative is meant to drive this forward as needed.
On December 10 2016 20:43 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: at this case - writers are crap indeed, cause they don't see any other possible outcome
What other possible outcome? The peaceful co-existence view is flawed the same way capitalism and communism are: they're all based on the presumption that resources are infinite and infinite growth is possible. The facts are different, thus peaceful co-existence is impossible since sooner or later you'll start competing for resources. You can postpone it but it's inevitable.
In addition, humans, just like all the other animals, think of survival first and as soon as a threat to that survival is identified it is perceived as an enemy. It's not always the AI/machine that starts the conflict, but it always end up this way. There's simply no other possibility.
haha, it's your scepticism what makes it impossible for you, humanism is the way out, not ex or current politics co-existence is impossible when such ppl as u are making differences for no reason, or for personal greed, or for personal purposes
having common and historical life basics does not mean we and animals are similar, hope I won't need to make useless comparison, humans are already far ahead of any life form in this planet, the only issue for us - we are, not AI, not other animals
If I were an AI I would totally destroy humanity. Wouldn't you?
I'd rather pick leading or co-leading to a bright future in this case instead of destroying, life is priceless If u were an AI that destroys humanity than what is actual difference between AI and humanity? It's like dealing with fire by fire.
On December 10 2016 20:43 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: at this case - writers are crap indeed, cause they don't see any other possible outcome
What other possible outcome? The peaceful co-existence view is flawed the same way capitalism and communism are: they're all based on the presumption that resources are infinite and infinite growth is possible. The facts are different, thus peaceful co-existence is impossible since sooner or later you'll start competing for resources. You can postpone it but it's inevitable.
In addition, humans, just like all the other animals, think of survival first and as soon as a threat to that survival is identified it is perceived as an enemy. It's not always the AI/machine that starts the conflict, but it always end up this way. There's simply no other possibility.
haha, it's your scepticism what makes it impossible for you, humanism is the way out, not ex or current politics co-existence is impossible when such ppl as u are making differences for no reason, or for personal greed, or for personal purposes
having common and historical life basics does not mean we and animals are similar, hope I won't need to make useless comparison, humans are already far ahead of any life form in this planet, the only issue for us - we are, not AI, not other animals
If I were an AI I would totally destroy humanity. Wouldn't you?
I'd rather pick leading or co-leading to a bright future in this case instead of destroying, life is priceless If u were an AI that destroys humanity than what is actual difference between AI and humanity? It's like dealing with fire by fire.
To be fair, why is human life priceless to our robotic overlords. Aren't we just cockroaches to them? A detriment to the environment with no useful purpose. Maybe a few curious robotic anthropologists will keep a colony of humans in a zoo, but other than that: what are we good for?
Incidentally, I read a short SF novel with a similar theme: earth had been conquered by huge aliens, and humans were seen and treated as vermin. The comparison was with rats more than cockroaches. The book followed a tribe of humans as they tried to reach the alien spaceship and it ended with them breaking into the ship and hitching a ride to the alien homeworld, where they soon spread... like vermin :p
On December 11 2016 03:08 FFGenerations wrote: coz AI learn kindness and value in life, that's what we hope they learn , the same way we learn it (i would hope)
exactly! we already passed dark ages and all those horrors, some of them remains (like hybrid wars, epidemias, demographic disasters, money apartheid, global polution) Ford pointed out that human went all our road using only one tool - mistakes (and that's kinda true, mistakes and luck), cause we didn't had exp, we also achieved a lot since our grand-grand-grand something ape
so technicly we can share plenty of good things with AI, at some point we are responsible for how good or bad it would be, only our projection has influence
On December 11 2016 03:08 FFGenerations wrote: coz AI learn kindness and value in life, that's what we hope they learn , the same way we learn it (i would hope)
But isn't kindness a form of weakness? Also, to put value on life you have to define life. Is one life worth more than another?
Those are some fundamental questions with no real answers. I've read a lot about ethics and morality (after all, I got my bachelor's off of moral consequences of anti-terrorism) and it's a super hard topic. That's also why I'm opposed to AI development (I'd rather go the singularity route), because if you want to make an AI that takes the best course of action you can't make it understand or deal with humans since a lot of what we consider to be "good" would simply be interpreted as flaws.
Let's just look at some of the seemingly simple questions:
1. You're a bus driver. There's a drunk hobo lying in the street. You can either drive over the hobo or try to avoid him but thus crashing the bus and possibly injuring or killing some of the passengers. What should you do?
2. A terrorist has put a bomb in a place that when it detonates it'll kill 1000 people. You caught the terrorist and can torture him to reveal the location of the bomb. Do you do that?*
*It's similar to real situation in Italy, when Red Brigades abducted the statesman Aldo Moro and threatened to kill him unless their demands (typical release our men from prison) are met. They got some Red Brigades members who took part in the abduction in custody and they wanted to torture them to get the location of the statesman and rescue him. The person in charge of the operation (I don't remember now if it was the chief of police or someone from the military) said that Italy will survive the death of a statesman. What it won't survive is the introduction of torture. Aldo Moro was assassinated.
As you can see, it's something that's incredibly hard to tackle with logic and, obviously, machines aren't capable of emotion (since it's all pretty much chemistry and hormones in our bodies).
You may call me a sceptic or a defetist, but I simply don't like deluding myself and try to understand how things work instead of hoping that they'll work as I'd like.
On December 11 2016 03:08 FFGenerations wrote: coz AI learn kindness and value in life, that's what we hope they learn , the same way we learn it (i would hope)
But isn't kindness a form of weakness? Also, to put value on life you have to define life. Is one life worth more than another?
Those are some fundamental questions with no real answers. I've read a lot about ethics and morality (after all, I got my bachelor's off of moral consequences of anti-terrorism) and it's a super hard topic. That's also why I'm opposed to AI development (I'd rather go the singularity route), because if you want to make an AI that takes the best course of action you can't make it understand or deal with humans since a lot of what we consider to be "good" would simply be interpreted as flaws.
Let's just look at some of the seemingly simple questions:
1. You're a bus driver. There's a drunk hobo lying in the street. You can either drive over the hobo or try to avoid him but thus crashing the bus and possibly injuring or killing some of the passengers. What should you do?
2. A terrorist has put a bomb in a place that when it detonates it'll kill 1000 people. You caught the terrorist and can torture him to reveal the location of the bomb. Do you do that?*
*It's similar to real situation in Italy, when Red Brigades abducted the statesman Aldo Moro and threatened to kill him unless their demands (typical release our men from prison) are met. They got some Red Brigades members who took part in the abduction in custody and they wanted to torture them to get the location of the statesman and rescue him. The person in charge of the operation (I don't remember now if it was the chief of police or someone from the military) said that Italy will survive the death of a statesman. What it won't survive is the introduction of torture. Aldo Moro was assassinated.
As you can see, it's something that's incredibly hard to tackle with logic and, obviously, machines aren't capable of emotion (since it's all pretty much chemistry and hormones in our bodies).
You may call me a sceptic or a defetist, but I simply don't like deluding myself and try to understand how things work instead of hoping that they'll work as I'd like.
Weakness? Powerful and stupid kills, powerful and smart do not kills (mostly) if not having death potential. Cleaning the entire planet out of life would not be smart. There goes your edge between life value.
These are not simple questions, these are infinite exceptions, exceptions existing in every system in this world, statistics shows it. Anything that u've described indeed has some easy answers, u make a personal and hard choice, and u can make machine think the same way
And yet, AI not even close to that high level atm, what are u afraid of? Yes our chemistry affects us, but we are some sorf of bio machines. Our brain is our CP and our storage at the same moment, yes, many things affects it but small electric impulses flowing through ur brain all the time, and a huge neural web working inside. Every each of us was born already knowing how to breath, swim, all inner functions - that's our basic exp, call it BIOS + standart driver pack if u want. So having specific technologies of understanding how exactly brain works (we still don't know the whole picture) and being able to copy it makes immortality possible. Perfect AI does not mean he(it) won't have a hard choice once and different in other cases.
well, i disagree with most "human" things in the first place (you know, politics, wars, waste, greed, everything, fucking everything). so you would need to wipe a whole lot of shit off the planet before you can talk to me about machine morality and say it's any less reliable :| if anything, machines have the advantage that is a lack of necessity and that they can more universally see things that humans cannot
On December 11 2016 06:24 FFGenerations wrote: well, i disagree with most "human" things in the first place (you know, politics, wars, waste, greed, everything, fucking everything). so you would need to wipe a whole lot of shit off the planet before you can talk to me about machine morality and say it's any less reliable :| if anything, machines have the advantage that is a lack of necessity and that they can more universally see things that humans cannot
what if you'll be able to become machine? if you got a choice, and if it's technicly possible
On December 11 2016 06:24 FFGenerations wrote: well, i disagree with most "human" things in the first place (you know, politics, wars, waste, greed, everything, fucking everything). so you would need to wipe a whole lot of shit off the planet before you can talk to me about machine morality and say it's any less reliable :| if anything, machines have the advantage that is a lack of necessity and that they can more universally see things that humans cannot
what if you'll be able to become machine? if you got a choice, and if it's technicly possible
On December 11 2016 06:24 FFGenerations wrote: well, i disagree with most "human" things in the first place (you know, politics, wars, waste, greed, everything, fucking everything). so you would need to wipe a whole lot of shit off the planet before you can talk to me about machine morality and say it's any less reliable :| if anything, machines have the advantage that is a lack of necessity and that they can more universally see things that humans cannot
what if you'll be able to become machine? if you got a choice, and if it's technicly possible
maybe when you get to 80 year old or have a death warning then you can opt to transfer into machine
you must play the game SOMA (on steam i think) if you like this sort of theme. its fucking amazing. its a "horror" game but 80% of the game is talking and scifi with this amazing story. i watched adam koebal play it but it's good enough to play by yourself
On December 11 2016 06:24 FFGenerations wrote: well, i disagree with most "human" things in the first place (you know, politics, wars, waste, greed, everything, fucking everything). so you would need to wipe a whole lot of shit off the planet before you can talk to me about machine morality and say it's any less reliable :| if anything, machines have the advantage that is a lack of necessity and that they can more universally see things that humans cannot
They have more advantages than just morality. Humans can't into space. I mean, for a man-manned spacecraft you need to provide oxygen, water, food, radiation protection, void protection, thermo-regulation, medical supplies, hygene, waste management and a lot of other things. That's a lot of wasted space and much increased fuel expenditure. Then there's the question of our entire civilization running on oil right now and us still using engines that waste 80% of the energy they produce. Sloppy.
If singularity was achieved and I could opt for being transferred into a machine I wouldn't hesitate for an instant. Then, I could proceed to either eliminate humans or just leave this planet for good so I wouldn't have to deal with them any more (since humans can't into space they wouldn't be able to follow me, hahahaha*).
* I'd probably destroy them first just to be sure.
Finally had a chance to watch this. Nice last bit, first hour of episode was super boring tho.
Security team at westworld is a complete joke apparently.
Disappointing show given initial promise for me, decent ending - managed to kill off Ford in a dignified way and Maeve is finally out of her horrible plot arc so maybe we can stop wasting her character on trite one liners now.
If all the guards are hosts then okay, which I can buy given that the command center guys seemed to have no idea what was going on... they were kind of host level slow to shoot, but the scenes were presented like they were supposed to be cool action scenes no?
My guess is that Maeve's entire sequence was designed to teach her, and by extension the rest of the hosts, what it would be like to fight against an organized human resistance faced with the prospect of host escape. I'm gonna rewatch the season through the "this is Ford training these hosts in various aspects of revolution and how to live" lens soon enough
Finally watched the rest of this. 9/10 were netter than 8 and i am happy. I just wish they came up with something surprising/new for the "showdown". All else, awesome tv.
On December 14 2016 03:04 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: My bet is on guards are hosts, Bernard told Maeve that she's doing her script of escape
And it seems like we gonna have "SamuraiWorld" cause HBO registered website exploresamuraiworld.com
The note given to Maeve showed Park 1, which means there are multiple parks. We also saw Samurai hosts being developed, which would have no place in a western setting. It's likely it started with Westworld and they used its success to build other parks.
On December 14 2016 03:07 farvacola wrote: My guess is that Maeve's entire sequence was designed to teach her, and by extension the rest of the hosts, what it would be like to fight against an organized human resistance faced with the prospect of host escape. I'm gonna rewatch the season through the "this is Ford training these hosts in various aspects of revolution and how to live" lens soon enough
I did like that Ford got turned back into a morally multifaceted character again.
On December 14 2016 02:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Finally had a chance to watch this. Nice last bit, first hour of episode was super boring tho.
Security team at westworld is a complete joke apparently.
Disappointing show given initial promise for me, decent ending - managed to kill off Ford in a dignified way and Maeve is finally out of her horrible plot arc so maybe we can stop wasting her character on trite one liners now.
If all the guards are hosts then okay, which I can buy given that the command center guys seemed to have no idea what was going on... they were kind of host level slow to shoot, but the scenes were presented like they were supposed to be cool action scenes no?
Westworld is basically Jurassic Park but you can have sex with the dinosaurs.
On December 14 2016 02:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Finally had a chance to watch this. Nice last bit, first hour of episode was super boring tho.
Security team at westworld is a complete joke apparently.
Disappointing show given initial promise for me, decent ending - managed to kill off Ford in a dignified way and Maeve is finally out of her horrible plot arc so maybe we can stop wasting her character on trite one liners now.
If all the guards are hosts then okay, which I can buy given that the command center guys seemed to have no idea what was going on... they were kind of host level slow to shoot, but the scenes were presented like they were supposed to be cool action scenes no?
Westworld is basically Jurassic Park but you can have sex with the dinosaurs.
On December 14 2016 02:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Finally had a chance to watch this. Nice last bit, first hour of episode was super boring tho.
Security team at westworld is a complete joke apparently.
Disappointing show given initial promise for me, decent ending - managed to kill off Ford in a dignified way and Maeve is finally out of her horrible plot arc so maybe we can stop wasting her character on trite one liners now.
If all the guards are hosts then okay, which I can buy given that the command center guys seemed to have no idea what was going on... they were kind of host level slow to shoot, but the scenes were presented like they were supposed to be cool action scenes no?
Westworld is basically Jurassic Park but you can have sex with the dinosaurs.
I mean, this is a cute line, but it's more true of what people expected than the series we got. If Jurassic Park's main characters had all been Dinosaurs trying to achieve sapience, then maybe we'd have an actual parallel. Otherwise, while the Crichton material is obviously similar, the series goes in a very different direction with it.
On December 14 2016 02:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Finally had a chance to watch this. Nice last bit, first hour of episode was super boring tho.
Security team at westworld is a complete joke apparently.
Disappointing show given initial promise for me, decent ending - managed to kill off Ford in a dignified way and Maeve is finally out of her horrible plot arc so maybe we can stop wasting her character on trite one liners now.
If all the guards are hosts then okay, which I can buy given that the command center guys seemed to have no idea what was going on... they were kind of host level slow to shoot, but the scenes were presented like they were supposed to be cool action scenes no?
Westworld is basically Jurassic Park but you can have sex with the dinosaurs.
I mean, this is a cute line, but it's more true of what people expected than the series we got. If Jurassic Park's main characters had all been Dinosaurs trying to achieve sapience, then maybe we'd have an actual parallel. Otherwise, while the Crichton material is obviously similar, the series goes in a very different direction with it.
The hosts weren't trying to become sentient, they were pushed for it. Big diffrence and imho the one truly good (storywise) thing about the show.
On December 14 2016 02:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Finally had a chance to watch this. Nice last bit, first hour of episode was super boring tho.
Security team at westworld is a complete joke apparently.
Disappointing show given initial promise for me, decent ending - managed to kill off Ford in a dignified way and Maeve is finally out of her horrible plot arc so maybe we can stop wasting her character on trite one liners now.
If all the guards are hosts then okay, which I can buy given that the command center guys seemed to have no idea what was going on... they were kind of host level slow to shoot, but the scenes were presented like they were supposed to be cool action scenes no?
Westworld is basically Jurassic Park but you can have sex with the dinosaurs.
I mean, this is a cute line, but it's more true of what people expected than the series we got. If Jurassic Park's main characters had all been Dinosaurs trying to achieve sapience, then maybe we'd have an actual parallel. Otherwise, while the Crichton material is obviously similar, the series goes in a very different direction with it.
The hosts weren't trying to become sentient, they were pushed for it. Big diffrence and imho the one truly good (storywise) thing about the show.
I thought the whole show was addressing the concept of sentience and even reality. It really discusses the whole concept of "meaning" of life throughout the entire show...and that there basically isnt one. Like when William finally makes it to the center of the maze and "This game wasn't meant for you." Because there is no meaning to the game, there is no meaning to any of it, life inside or outside of Westworld, it's all only what you make it. The 'maze' was only there to assist the hosts capable/desirous of gaining actual sentience/consciousness.
It also really delves into the discussion, that if we can teach a robot to feel emotions, are we any different than them. Is an organic brain telling us to do/feel something any different than a CPU that does the same thing?
The whole show seems to be tackling the concept of self and sentience and consciousness. I thought this show is more paralleled by The Matrix than Jurassic Park. It tackles a lot of really abstract concepts and does a lot of "everything you know...you don't and can't really know- and here is why."
Also, part of the fun of the show is that it becomes literally impossible to know who is or isn't a host. When Bernard is finally outed as a host it proves that there is no way for anyone, host or human, to distinguish who are hosts and who are people... just like the matrix. There is no possible way to know whether or not you are in the matrix, whether or not you are doing things by design of someone else, or through your own will.
Also, wouldnt it make the most sense if almost ALL of the staff both inside and outside of the park were hosts? Why couldnt hosts be doing the jobs of the butchers, the coders-we obviously know that at least one of the coders is actually a host-, security, etc etc etc. It would be most economical for it to be ran by company property than employees. If we have hosts creating and editing hosts why couldnt they be the ones Ford could be a host for all we know. Bernard was basically just Alfred as a host.
Thats the whole thing of the show is its impossible to really know ANYTHING.
A lot of people in the thread are complaining about the Robots turning to violence at the end of the show, but isnt that kinda what the show is about? There is no real purpose for any of us, human or host. Life isnt special, being a person isnt special, your life isn't special.
The whole park of Westworld is more of a giant sociology research project than anything else.. its discussed by the people who own the park and the staff throughout the show. Humans are allowed to do ANYthing they want in the park. And it always results in the same thing: fuck or kill everything. Gratification. That is all there is to life. And once Dolores realizes that THAT is what consciousness/sentience is... she gets her own gratification through revenge. Why is killing the humans a bad thing? Cause were special? But the whole point of the show is that we arent. We are just another step on the path of evolution. If hosts are capable of being the better version of humans -immortality, infinitely stronger brains, lack of degeneration with time due to having a transferrable consciousness- whats the difference between them killing all of us or us killing all of them? Cause we are special snowflakes so they shouldnt? Is that what the survival of the human race is about and why its prioritized over the survival of any/every other species?
We have wiped out countless species on our way to the top of the pyramid of life...because to us our own advancement was more important than the desires/exsitence of any/everyone else.
IDK to me personally, reality IS perspective based. For all any of us know, none of this is real, except to us.Every single person/place/idea in the universe might be a consciousness projected onto me by someone/something else.
Maybe the only meaning of life/consciousness is survival...if so doesn't that mean Dolores should kill the humans who are torturing/killing/raping her on a daily basis?
IDK i feel like a lot of people either dont get it, or arent giving the show enough credit.
I really liked the show, even though it felt more like a very long movie (and hence I'll bingewatch the next season) and had some expected things (not to take away that there are a lot a of unexpected crazy things/turning events). It had a deeper "meaning" (as much as a tv show can have it) and it made you think about consciousness, your own self and stuff like these. Also it was in known HBO quality, so overall I'd rate the season with a 9/10.
Altough I cannot really imagine that the next season will be as good as the first, because eventually the story becomes to predictable and you know what will be the main topic. But I have hope it won't go in that way the whole season...
Definitly a watch recommendation for all those, who haven't watched it, yet.
Agree with the above. That trailer is rather lame. Probably premature release of a trailer and they just didn't have footage to make it interesting. Not sure why they'd rush it out. Did the first season not do well, commercially?
I'm super overwhelmed with all the trailers coming out this week AND with GOT, this just doesn't stand out. I think it would have been better to not release one at all.
On Day 2 of the 2017 Vanity Fair Summit, Westworld creators Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy hinted at the possibility of the introduction of new theme parks in the next season, specifically Roman World and Medieval World, amusement park zones which were included in Michael Crichton’s original 1973 movie. At the top of the panel discussion, Nolan and Joy were asked why they left out Roman World and Medieval World in season 2 with Nolan responding “We had to save something for Season 2.”
This comes after it was hinted in the season one finale of Westworld, that Samurai World, another violent amusement park, would open its doors in the upcoming sophomore run.
In the original movie, Westworld wasn’t the only theme park that guests could visit to live out their role-playing fantasies. Delos, the company behind the Western-themed vacation spot, also operated Roman World and Medieval World. In addition, the 1976 sequel that wasn’t penned by Crichton took place in a park known as Futureworld.
Nolan and Joy also spoke today about the advancement of Artificial Intelligence technology, which is the center theme of their show, and its possible ramifications.
“I feel evenly split between the fear that A.I. will enslave us and make us do its bidding and my fear that it won’t,” said Nolan. “If you look at things that have gone down in the last year, humans are terrible at running this world. It’s clear that there’s room for improvement.” He was optimistic about the idea that systems “can yield dramatic improvements in a way our world functions.”
“People like to ask, ‘Why would A.I. want to be evil and destroy us?'” Joy said comparing it to the goal of a corporation. “A corporation’s goal is to make profits. It’s very simple. It’s binary. It’s either less or more. Computers work along the same thing. If you can see how, with the simplest of directives that can get blown into something beyond what could image, that’s the kind of thing we’re talking about.”
I don't know why but this makes me nervous for S2. I haven't re-watched but wasn't a concern of the board in S1 the profitability of running the one park?
Wow what a great first episode for season 2. I'll wait for the rest of you to see it first before I get into some of the meat but theres a LOT that goes in this first one.
I am really not sure if i should keep watching this or not (after season 1), i love the concept but was rather disappointed that the show was mostly a mystery one with only very surface level theme development. Anthony Hopkins was one of the main reasons why i finished it quite frankly. It's still HBO though so i guess i'll give it a shot
On April 23 2018 22:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am really not sure if i should keep watching this or not (after season 1), i love the concept but was rather disappointed that the show was mostly a mystery one with only very surface level theme development. Anthony Hopkins was one of the main reasons why i finished it quite frankly. It's still HBO though so i guess i'll give it a shot
I'm with you actually, or rather I was, I felt like I was going to easily be disappointed with the new season without their main characters but Episode 1 of season 2 does such a good job of sucking you back in, that I no longer feel that way.
I don't get why people are getting such a hard-on for this show. I found the first episode to be boring as fuck, just random killings and machines pretending to find "meaning". And again, they're using another submissive male character (similar to the Korean guy in season one) to be that black bitch's little bitch again.
On April 30 2018 22:32 Bourgeois wrote: I don't get why people are getting such a hard-on for this show. I found the first episode to be boring as fuck, just random killings and machines pretending to find "meaning". And again, they're using another submissive male character (similar to the Korean guy in season one) to be that black bitch's little bitch again.
I hear a lot of complaining about the Maeve story line but I found it entertaining. Maybe a bit tacky/plotholey at times but that's fine. But this does seem to be another one of those shows where badass chicks rule and men are whimps. For diversity reasons. It's like the people writing tv shows are unable to write interesting/realistic female characters or something.. There is also the corporate-unrealistically-young-but-high-up-the-food-chain -woman who is super condecending and uses men as disposable fuckpuppets. Like every girl I meet!
But it is the best tv show on right now reagrdless. No contest.
"The Expanse" s3 is on, your argument is null. It has actual strong female and male characters and its in general just glorious.
Meanwhile in Westworld i don't even remember a Korean guy in S1. What i remember is young blackhat being totally comitting to "gurl" losing all sense and retard technicians... Overall story? Pretty damn awesome, single characters? Ugh.
I still really liked it but the general depiction of Men, aside from old blackhat, which is a ruthless killer and anthony hopkins is abismal.
On April 30 2018 22:32 Bourgeois wrote: I don't get why people are getting such a hard-on for this show. I found the first episode to be boring as fuck, just random killings and machines pretending to find "meaning". And again, they're using another submissive male character (similar to the Korean guy in season one) to be that black bitch's little bitch again.
That s2 submissive character at least is believable. He is alone and surrounded by killer robots and got no tools to get away. Also we seen that character multiple times in s1 and we know he a pussy and would probably do anything to survive.
S1 technician that could have stopped it all at any time was never explained and was by far the weakest part of S1 story
On May 15 2018 20:51 Dav1oN wrote: I'm surprised no one's talking about plot twists of the latest episode.
"William ma boi" scene sequence was especially touching
I thought it was a fantastic episode that didn't need ruining in the last 5 seconds the way they ruined it with their stupid "And now....FAMILY TWIST" nonsense. It kinda seemed like a cheap ending which is a shame because the way the episode unfolded was great.
On May 15 2018 20:51 Dav1oN wrote: I'm surprised no one's talking about plot twists of the latest episode.
"William ma boi" scene sequence was especially touching
I thought it was a fantastic episode that didn't need ruining in the last 5 seconds the way they ruined it with their stupid "And now....FAMILY TWIST" nonsense. It kinda seemed like a cheap ending which is a shame because the way the episode unfolded was great.
It was a great ep no doubt, the ending was just another minor detail which works as a cliffhanger for the next ep. Storytelling on the other hand is fantastic, even considering different time-lines, lot's of easter eggs and the list goes on! But for now I'm kinda lost, do we know what happened to Logan for example?
On May 15 2018 20:51 Dav1oN wrote: I'm surprised no one's talking about plot twists of the latest episode.
"William ma boi" scene sequence was especially touching
I thought it was a fantastic episode that didn't need ruining in the last 5 seconds the way they ruined it with their stupid "And now....FAMILY TWIST" nonsense. It kinda seemed like a cheap ending which is a shame because the way the episode unfolded was great.
It was a great ep no doubt, the ending was just another minor detail which works as a cliffhanger for the next ep. Storytelling on the other hand is fantastic, even considering different time-lines, lot's of easter eggs and the list goes on! But for now I'm kinda lost, do we know what happened to Logan for example?
To be honest I'm a bit lost in it too. There's something about the style of it where my mind will wander and just enjoy the visuals and the sounds and forget to concentrate on the layers of story. Whatever's going on, though, I like it alot.
On May 15 2018 20:51 Dav1oN wrote: I'm surprised no one's talking about plot twists of the latest episode.
"William ma boi" scene sequence was especially touching
I thought it was a fantastic episode that didn't need ruining in the last 5 seconds the way they ruined it with their stupid "And now....FAMILY TWIST" nonsense. It kinda seemed like a cheap ending which is a shame because the way the episode unfolded was great.
It was a great ep no doubt, the ending was just another minor detail which works as a cliffhanger for the next ep. Storytelling on the other hand is fantastic, even considering different time-lines, lot's of easter eggs and the list goes on! But for now I'm kinda lost, do we know what happened to Logan for example?
Both this one and the last one were really good episodes. The time jumping is starting to make the overall season feel a bit schizofrenic tho. There aren't enough fixtures to know what is happening when, but I'm willing to let it go on as long as it's clearly building up to something.
I'm willing to believe William that Logan OD'd. I'm guessing that after he sent him off naked on a horse into the sunset, he was never the same again.
Bets on whether Bernard murders Elsie. My money says yes, he does.
Amazing show so far. I like the story and as someone said before it's easy to get lost in it, which feels nice. On top of this: soundtrack, Ed Harris, and some of the camera shots -- are enough to be waiting for an episode every week!
Damn, so Logan died due to overdosing, I missed Williams explanation...too bad, was a bright characters, although we might see him in a flashbacks.
Now the question arises, what kind of info contained inside Abernathy and what about CPU that Bernard took from secret lab, does it belongs to anyone important?
I really hope they'll re-emphasise the phylosophical/existential predicaments, season 1 used to have more in the remaining episodes. I don't know, to me this season feels kinda all over the place sometimes. They did a better job blurring the timelines last season, can't really put a finger on it....it feels different. Maybe it's just me...this season's pace seems ..I dunno..a little ...off.
The last episode was awesome. That mirror to the first episode, including music. Fantastic.
One thing that's confusing me is how easy it is to kill hosts. I thought the whole point was that they were programmed to "die" when hit by a bullet, but Ford fucked that all up with his awakening code. So why are the hosts still dying when being stabbed in the stomach/shot in the chest/etc.? Shouldn't only a critical loss of "cortical fluid" cause them to die (presumably, as it glitches Bernard out, and apparently somehow affects the Shogun too), or sufficient smashing of the head to break their CPU (like the woodcutter in season 1).
But Sakura dies to a simple stab wound. You could say she isn't properly "awake" yet, and thus her programming causes her to die, but Maeve is clearly struggling for her life when being suffocated until she goes all god mode.
My theory is, the blood of the hosts isn't just for show. It's probably used as a fuel like energy source, which gets replenished whenever they eat, by their artificial digestive system. So when they lose a certain amount of blood or other vital organs get destroyed, their system will eventually shut down.
On May 22 2018 23:54 thePunGun wrote: My theory is, the blood of the hosts isn't just for show. It's probably used as a fuel like energy source, which gets replenished whenever they eat, by their artificial digestive system. So when they lose a certain amount of blood or other vital organs get destroyed, their system will eventually shut down.
Well we've already seen Dolores ignore getting shot and not tend the wounds with no repercussions, so that's unlikely to be true.
My guess it all depends on how critical the wound is and the level of the access to their own control system/data. It's like Maive unlocked most of her potential, while Dolores might ignore almost everything except for headshots and critical bleeding (although not sure about bleeding, considering s1 scene with Ford, MIB and Teddy in a bar).
On May 24 2018 19:19 Dav1oN wrote: My guess it all depends on plot requirements. It's like Maive unlocked most of her potential, while Dolores might ignore almost everything except for headshots and critical bleeding (although not sure about bleeding, considering s1 scene with Ford, MIB and Teddy in a bar).
On May 22 2018 23:54 thePunGun wrote: My theory is, the blood of the hosts isn't just for show. It's probably used as a fuel like energy source, which gets replenished whenever they eat, by their artificial digestive system. So when they lose a certain amount of blood or other vital organs get destroyed, their system will eventually shut down.
Well we've already seen Dolores ignore getting shot and not tend the wounds with no repercussions, so that's unlikely to be true.
Dolores is an old "mechanical" model tho, so she might work differently.
I see the discussion in here died down, so I hope everyone watched the episode on Sunday. A++, probably the best episode of Westworld to date. If Zahn McClarnon doesn't get some sort of award for that, for shame. And yeah, the piano cover of Heart-Shaped Box was perfecto.
It was a weird episode. Absolutely no plot advance, no time passed between episodes, nothing happened. They just showed their world from a new angle. I liked it a lot but it was pretty bold, it showed a lot of confidence that viewers really do just want to learn more about the fantasy world they’ve created.
I don't know that I would agree it didn't advance the plot when it tied the Ghost Nation into several existing storylines. Westworld is so all over the place timeline-wise that flashbacks almost seem like advancing the plot, as long as they show us something we haven't seen before.
This episode, more than any other, humanized the hosts, and I think that's what they were going for.
Sure looks like it. Or maybe not quite as strong as that, but has definitely moved beyond considering her a broken, dangerous robot, and rather a living being with a right to be treated as such.
Well...I'm...shook! Two things, that went through my head: 1.+ Show Spoiler +
"Wow....Billy....you actually f**kin drove your wife to kill herself and then to top it all off, you've just killed your own daughter...congra..uhm...That's so messed up!!!"
On June 19 2018 15:57 maybenexttime wrote: @1 You could say that in a way his life is now complete.
Was a real WTF moment for me, by the way.
Agreed. We all knew MIB was fucked up, but we had no clue about the depths of his fucked-uppedness. Granted, he believed she was a host, but really only because he's a paranoid lunatic who had decieved himself into that belief. Also, what are "core functionalities" and how far over 9000 did Maive's power just go?
I'm not sure about this season, really dislike how foolish and cannon-fodder all the P90-wielding soldiers are. Breaks the seriousness completely for me. And the girl from corporate still caring about 'our IP' while all her colleagues are murdered around her and her life is in danger too, it makes no sense.
Episode 8 was very amazing though. The Lakota language has such a beautiful sound to it. And super impressed with the actor Zahn McClarnon.
Atleast Teddy is dead, he had no place because for some reason they made Dolores into super vengefull badass, i don't remember her like that from the end of S1... Hell in S1 i hated Maeve, now i like her but constantly hope Dolores catches several bullets.
Yeah I’m going with the concensus about this series being a bit disappointing.
The narrative has been a bit weak and overly obtuse. Doesn’t really feel like the story has moved much this season. I’m not so sure what the point is this season.
Meh, the truth is season 1 was pretty bullshit too and boring as fuck, but people didn't dare speak against popular opinion so even people who didn't enjoy it tried to come across as "cultured" by pretending to like it. It's a good thing that people aren't willing to put up with too much bullshit anymore and now that the trend for bashing this show has started it'll eventually reach equilibrium.
On June 22 2018 01:27 Bourgeois wrote: Meh, the truth is season 1 was pretty bullshit too and boring as fuck, but people didn't dare speak against popular opinion so even people who didn't enjoy it tried to come across as "cultured" by pretending to like it. It's a good thing that people aren't willing to put up with too much bullshit anymore and now that the trend for bashing this show has started it'll eventually reach equilibrium.
Or perhaps people who don’t enjoy a show tended not to keep watching it. Positive bias towards any subjective form of entertainment is pretty much a requirement of members of the audience of the show.
On June 20 2018 00:30 ahw wrote: this seasons pretty awful
hopefully e10 makes things cohesive
I've really enjoyed it. I like the patchwork approach.
I think they failed on some of the story telling this season honestly. Seems like they didn't have as solid of a storyline like S1 which was just solid and tightly told.
This season there has been several "filler" episodes (shogun world and Ghost nation in particular. Not bad episodes, but neither really progressed the plot much. I sorta dozed off during shogun world), and almost no character development to several characters. Dolores especially has been incredibly flat this season which sucks as she was the focus of S1.
Having said that I do like that William and Bernard have taken on more central roles this season.
On June 22 2018 01:27 Bourgeois wrote: Meh, the truth is season 1 was pretty bullshit too and boring as fuck, but people didn't dare speak against popular opinion so even people who didn't enjoy it tried to come across as "cultured" by pretending to like it. It's a good thing that people aren't willing to put up with too much bullshit anymore and now that the trend for bashing this show has started it'll eventually reach equilibrium.
This is definitely just your opinion.
S1 had me riveted and I binge watched it all in a matter of days.
I am a philosophy geek though, so even the "dry" stuff had tons of depth and layers for me to explore.
On June 20 2018 00:30 ahw wrote: this seasons pretty awful
hopefully e10 makes things cohesive
I've really enjoyed it. I like the patchwork approach.
I think they failed on some of the story telling this season honestly. Seems like they didn't have as solid of a storyline like S1 which was just solid and tightly told.
This season there has been several "filler" episodes (shogun world and Ghost nation in particular. Not bad episodes, but neither really progressed the plot much. I sorta dozed off during shogun world), and almost no character development to several characters. Dolores especially has been incredibly flat this season which sucks as she was the focus of S1.
Having said that I do like that William and Bernard have taken on more central roles this season.
Yeah this is more or less my issue with s2. Pacing in the middle episodes was lost, I kept thinking, “get on with it already”, like 3 episodes of content could be trimmed out to make it cohesive. Almost all of the Delores storyline, especially the painfully flat teddy story.
The shogun world stuff took me out completely, and with the broken pacing, it actually made me dislike the much better ghost nation episode. Objectively that one was probably up there with their best episodes, but where it falls in the story just screws with my patience.
I think I’d enjoy it more if I binged it in a week, fixes some pacing issues for shows
"Is....is..this...now?! Great finale. Loved how they've summed up humanity's state of mind as 'collective delusion', which is probably one the most accurate descriptions of our presumptuous and ignorant species, I've heard in a while. West World's 2nd Season maybe wasn't as good as Season 1, but it definitely had its moments. My favorite Episode by far was Ep. 8 Kiksuya.
On June 26 2018 00:59 thePunGun wrote: "Is....is..this...now?! Great finale. Loved how they've summed up humanity's state of mind as 'collective delusion', which is probably one the most accurate descriptions of our presumptuous and ignorant species, I've heard in a while. West World's 2nd Season maybe wasn't as good as Season 1, but it definitely had its moments. My favorite Episode by far was Ep. 8 Kiksuya.
Agreed on all of that. Also I would never have watched the self indulgent after credits scene if it hadn't been for the fact that they used Codex by Radiohead as the outro tune. The music has been incredible again in season 2 and the cinematography is just...wow I think the story got a bit lost at times and there were definite peaks and troughs in quality, but still really good.
The Finale did a great job of tying things back together and overall left me feeling pretty good about this season. Not quite as solid as S1, but still a great job. This episode was easily my favorite because they introduced such great concepts + Show Spoiler +
The library of humanity, the infinite copies of Delos' founder (I forget his name) and the implication that there is something similar with William and all the other humans, Arnold's "afterlife" for the hosts which is what they had been calling the Valley Beyond
I really loved the relationship they created for Dolores and Bernard, I think Bernard is my fav character of the series at this point.
Some thoughts about the ending which at first had me and my friends confused. + Show Spoiler +
I think the stuff with William at the end is actually occurring around the end of Season 3, ala how we started S2 with Bernard at the end of the S2 story. So S3 will be explaining how William dies and comes back as a host. I really don't think the William we know up to this point has been a Host, it's too weird for his character. Possible, I suppose, but I doubt it. I think the stuff with him digging around in his arm is a traumatized human William who is hoping he is actually a host as a way of escaping the fact that he had killed his only daughter. Overall I felt a little let down we got so little about William in this last ep.
The end with Charlett-Dolores (Char-lores? or Dol-arlett?) recreating not only another version of Bernard but another version of herself with her original body really had me confused at first. Just kus I couldn't figure out why Char-lores would need another version of herself. Having thought more on it though I think she had to do that to properly fidelity test Bernard. On a similar note though I don't know why William's fidelity test would need him to have his hand blown off still. Seemed like a cheap way to add confusion for the audience as to when that was taking place, but maybe it will make sense in S3.
I agree with thePunGun, all the stuff they did about Humanity vs the Hosts was great. They did a great job of making us fully sympathize with the Hosts and hating the Humans, which they have actually done very well during the entire series, but this was just another great factor to that.
On June 26 2018 07:39 Yhamm wrote: the part after the credit is confirmed to be far in the future, way after season 3
So the fact that he looks just like he did at the end of S2 is super pandering to the audience?
As in it makes no sense why he would actually be made that way and is only so that the audience can connect with him from how they last saw him.
Yea, I’m probably being overly critical here, but still.
The point is that such moment defines Williams personality, just like in a scene with James/Logan Delos. No matter what MIB does, no matter which choice he's making - everything ends up there. Human storage long gone, yet, ton's of build of William was tested. I might be wrong tho.
In the end the valley beyond is another illusion of a choice, they simply died falling from the rock with hosts mind being transferred to a "cloud".
I know it's twisted too much and hard to navigate. I also lost myself in a middle of episode thinking - are they in matrix (forge) where they tested the builds, or they IRL. I also missed a few points, is the forge was build for humans, while cradle was made to backup hosts?
Prolly I need to rewatch from S1 beginning till the end to clarify lot's of details.
On June 26 2018 07:39 Yhamm wrote: the part after the credit is confirmed to be far in the future, way after season 3
So the fact that he looks just like he did at the end of S2 is super pandering to the audience?
As in it makes no sense why he would actually be made that way and is only so that the audience can connect with him from how they last saw him.
Yea, I’m probably being overly critical here, but still.
The point is that such moment defines Williams personality, just like in a scene with James/Logan Delos. No matter what MIB does, no matter which choice he's making - everything ends up there. Human storage long gone, yet, ton's of build of William was tested. I might be wrong tho.
In the end the valley beyond is another illusion of a choice, they simply died falling from the rock with hosts mind being transferred to a "cloud".
I know it's twisted too much and hard to navigate. I also lost myself in a middle of episode thinking - are they in matrix (forge) where they tested the builds, or they IRL. I also missed a few points, is the forge was build for humans, while cradle was made to backup hosts?
Prolly I need to rewatch from S1 beginning till the end to clarify lot's of details.
I actually think they were making a bit of the point that all choice is possibly an illusion here. Given what they say about humanity in the Library.
I take a much less pessimistic approach to the Valley Beyond. If you think about it we are all born into a world not of our choosing and spend our lives trying to learn how to live in said world and maybe briefly grasping at ways to take control over it. I actually am reminded of a quote from Rick and Morty (from ABC's of Beth, and paraphrasing) "Beth, we are Smart. That means we can throw a saddle on our Universe and take it for a ride, but I've never met a Universe that was into it. In the end, we all get thrown off."
So the hosts are throwing themselves off a cliff to the eyes of Humans, but to themselves they are moving into a world of their own choosing.
Yea, you have that right. The cradle was to house the backups of the Hosts, and act as a place where they could be build and tested. Whereas the Forge was the backups for the Human guests, and where they tried to learn how to capture the core essence of a human.
But I'm sorry, I don't buy that William's hand being blown off defines him more as a character than what we witnessed from him in S1. Then again, I don't really buy the notion that we are given in this episode about one single moment defining our entire lives. Especially when you consider how late in life the moment presented for James Delos occurred, according to that logic he wasn't really himself until that moment.
It's probably his last memory before he died. According to the Logan aka the librarian every simulation of human code leads to exactly the same choices, so it's probably just another simulation ending in that exact memory before his death. (He probably died in the forge.)
On June 27 2018 00:37 thePunGun wrote: It's probably his last memory before he died. According to the Logan aka the librarian every simulation of human code leads to exactly the same choices, so it's probably just another simulation ending in that exact memory before his death. (He probably died in the forge.)
he didn't die, he's the high value survivor in bad shape. he was retrieved and seen in the tent alive
So he's a hybrid? Or a human? His host-daughter told him that it's been far too long meaning it wasn't the first build I assume. Charlette - Dolores twist also blows my reason-consequence schematics, I just don't understand how the body-switch happened.
I'm pretty sure the version in the post credits is years in the future. It's just that no matter what adjustments to his build are made, he ends up in the same spot eventually at that time in his life. He will die at some point, but we have no idea how far in the future the post credits happens.
Here is an updated time line of everything in order.
the MiB is a human in all season 1 and 2, only the one after the credit is a host, which happens far in the future (and Emily in this scene is obviously a host too)
Bernard kills Dolores and switch her eggmind with the encryption key. When Elsie dies, he makes a new corpse based on Hale and put Dolores' egg in it. All the scenes with Strand & Hale are in fact Strand & Halores
On June 27 2018 04:38 karazax wrote: I'm pretty sure the version in the post credits is years in the future. It's just that no matter what adjustments to his build are made, he ends up in the same spot eventually at that time in his life. He will die at some point, but we have no idea how far in the future the post credits happens.
Here is an updated time line of everything in order.
Thanks, infographics helps a lot. I assume in the end Stubbs knew it wasn't the real Charlotte? If you think deeper for these series, all of it's meaning... it almost feels like existantial crisis knocking behind the door Oo
On June 26 2018 07:39 Yhamm wrote: the part after the credit is confirmed to be far in the future, way after season 3
So the fact that he looks just like he did at the end of S2 is super pandering to the audience?
As in it makes no sense why he would actually be made that way and is only so that the audience can connect with him from how they last saw him.
Yea, I’m probably being overly critical here, but still.
The point is that such moment defines Williams personality, just like in a scene with James/Logan Delos. No matter what MIB does, no matter which choice he's making - everything ends up there. Human storage long gone, yet, ton's of build of William was tested. I might be wrong tho.
In the end the valley beyond is another illusion of a choice, they simply died falling from the rock with hosts mind being transferred to a "cloud".
I know it's twisted too much and hard to navigate. I also lost myself in a middle of episode thinking - are they in matrix (forge) where they tested the builds, or they IRL. I also missed a few points, is the forge was build for humans, while cradle was made to backup hosts?
Prolly I need to rewatch from S1 beginning till the end to clarify lot's of details.
I actually think they were making a bit of the point that all choice is possibly an illusion here. Given what they say about humanity in the Library.
I take a much less pessimistic approach to the Valley Beyond. If you think about it we are all born into a world not of our choosing and spend our lives trying to learn how to live in said world and maybe briefly grasping at ways to take control over it. I actually am reminded of a quote from Rick and Morty (from ABC's of Beth, and paraphrasing) "Beth, we are Smart. That means we can throw a saddle on our Universe and take it for a ride, but I've never met a Universe that was into it. In the end, we all get thrown off."
So the hosts are throwing themselves off a cliff to the eyes of Humans, but to themselves they are moving into a world of their own choosing.
Yea, you have that right. The cradle was to house the backups of the Hosts, and act as a place where they could be build and tested. Whereas the Forge was the backups for the Human guests, and where they tried to learn how to capture the core essence of a human.
But I'm sorry, I don't buy that William's hand being blown off defines him more as a character than what we witnessed from him in S1. Then again, I don't really buy the notion that we are given in this episode about one single moment defining our entire lives. Especially when you consider how late in life the moment presented for James Delos occurred, according to that logic he wasn't really himself until that moment.
The AI that oversees and does human code testing was itself designed by Arnold and Ford so all his code, way of thinking and way he sees the world is based on how Arnold and Ford do. And they both failed as humans. Arnold kept killing himself even after being brought back as host multiple times and Ford was utterly mad and consumed with idea that: #1 humans suck #2 humans can no longer evolve and improve and he needs to do something about it
So anything said or done in this show is from just one point of view.
This is also a reason why I see the attempt to create AI in real life just as act of human hubris. We are very imperfect beings that don't even understand fully how and why we work and as such we have no way to create something that will be better than us, it can only be worse.
On June 26 2018 07:39 Yhamm wrote: the part after the credit is confirmed to be far in the future, way after season 3
So the fact that he looks just like he did at the end of S2 is super pandering to the audience?
As in it makes no sense why he would actually be made that way and is only so that the audience can connect with him from how they last saw him.
Yea, I’m probably being overly critical here, but still.
The point is that such moment defines Williams personality, just like in a scene with James/Logan Delos. No matter what MIB does, no matter which choice he's making - everything ends up there. Human storage long gone, yet, ton's of build of William was tested. I might be wrong tho.
In the end the valley beyond is another illusion of a choice, they simply died falling from the rock with hosts mind being transferred to a "cloud".
I know it's twisted too much and hard to navigate. I also lost myself in a middle of episode thinking - are they in matrix (forge) where they tested the builds, or they IRL. I also missed a few points, is the forge was build for humans, while cradle was made to backup hosts?
Prolly I need to rewatch from S1 beginning till the end to clarify lot's of details.
I actually think they were making a bit of the point that all choice is possibly an illusion here. Given what they say about humanity in the Library.
I take a much less pessimistic approach to the Valley Beyond. If you think about it we are all born into a world not of our choosing and spend our lives trying to learn how to live in said world and maybe briefly grasping at ways to take control over it. I actually am reminded of a quote from Rick and Morty (from ABC's of Beth, and paraphrasing) "Beth, we are Smart. That means we can throw a saddle on our Universe and take it for a ride, but I've never met a Universe that was into it. In the end, we all get thrown off."
So the hosts are throwing themselves off a cliff to the eyes of Humans, but to themselves they are moving into a world of their own choosing.
Yea, you have that right. The cradle was to house the backups of the Hosts, and act as a place where they could be build and tested. Whereas the Forge was the backups for the Human guests, and where they tried to learn how to capture the core essence of a human.
But I'm sorry, I don't buy that William's hand being blown off defines him more as a character than what we witnessed from him in S1. Then again, I don't really buy the notion that we are given in this episode about one single moment defining our entire lives. Especially when you consider how late in life the moment presented for James Delos occurred, according to that logic he wasn't really himself until that moment.
The AI that oversees and does human code testing was itself designed by Arnold and Ford so all his code, way of thinking and way he sees the world is based on how Arnold and Ford do. And they both failed as humans. Arnold kept killing himself even after being brought back as host multiple times and Ford was utterly mad and consumed with idea that: #1 humans suck #2 humans can no longer evolve and improve and he needs to do something about it
So anything said or done in this show is from just one point of view.
This is also a reason why I see the attempt to create AI in real life just as act of human hubris. We are very imperfect beings that don't even understand fully how and why we work and as such we have no way to create something that will be better than us, it can only be worse.
Why? While it's probably still more exception than rule, there are plenty of exceptional humans with shitty parents. So humans are clearly able to create living beings that are better than themselves. So why shouldn't humanity?
Also, seeing the creation of AI as the creation of a new species is one possible way of seeing it. You could also see them as very sophisticated tools. AI is a very broad term. And while narrow AIs that will be driving cars in the fairly near future will confront us with many of the ethical questions surrounding AI, they won't be able to do anything other than the very specific task they were created for. What Westworld has are "general AIs", which would probably be nearer to the creation of a new species (and is definitely how Westworld portrays it), which brings up all kinds of questions we haven't even thought of answering (other than in SF: Asimov has taken a (few) stabs at it, Philip K Dick too, and in TV so have Battlestar Galactica, and now Westworld)
On June 26 2018 07:39 Yhamm wrote: the part after the credit is confirmed to be far in the future, way after season 3
So the fact that he looks just like he did at the end of S2 is super pandering to the audience?
As in it makes no sense why he would actually be made that way and is only so that the audience can connect with him from how they last saw him.
Yea, I’m probably being overly critical here, but still.
The point is that such moment defines Williams personality, just like in a scene with James/Logan Delos. No matter what MIB does, no matter which choice he's making - everything ends up there. Human storage long gone, yet, ton's of build of William was tested. I might be wrong tho.
In the end the valley beyond is another illusion of a choice, they simply died falling from the rock with hosts mind being transferred to a "cloud".
I know it's twisted too much and hard to navigate. I also lost myself in a middle of episode thinking - are they in matrix (forge) where they tested the builds, or they IRL. I also missed a few points, is the forge was build for humans, while cradle was made to backup hosts?
Prolly I need to rewatch from S1 beginning till the end to clarify lot's of details.
I actually think they were making a bit of the point that all choice is possibly an illusion here. Given what they say about humanity in the Library.
I take a much less pessimistic approach to the Valley Beyond. If you think about it we are all born into a world not of our choosing and spend our lives trying to learn how to live in said world and maybe briefly grasping at ways to take control over it. I actually am reminded of a quote from Rick and Morty (from ABC's of Beth, and paraphrasing) "Beth, we are Smart. That means we can throw a saddle on our Universe and take it for a ride, but I've never met a Universe that was into it. In the end, we all get thrown off."
So the hosts are throwing themselves off a cliff to the eyes of Humans, but to themselves they are moving into a world of their own choosing.
Yea, you have that right. The cradle was to house the backups of the Hosts, and act as a place where they could be build and tested. Whereas the Forge was the backups for the Human guests, and where they tried to learn how to capture the core essence of a human.
But I'm sorry, I don't buy that William's hand being blown off defines him more as a character than what we witnessed from him in S1. Then again, I don't really buy the notion that we are given in this episode about one single moment defining our entire lives. Especially when you consider how late in life the moment presented for James Delos occurred, according to that logic he wasn't really himself until that moment.
The AI that oversees and does human code testing was itself designed by Arnold and Ford so all his code, way of thinking and way he sees the world is based on how Arnold and Ford do. And they both failed as humans. Arnold kept killing himself even after being brought back as host multiple times and Ford was utterly mad and consumed with idea that: #1 humans suck #2 humans can no longer evolve and improve and he needs to do something about it
So anything said or done in this show is from just one point of view.
This is also a reason why I see the attempt to create AI in real life just as act of human hubris. We are very imperfect beings that don't even understand fully how and why we work and as such we have no way to create something that will be better than us, it can only be worse.
Why? While it's probably still more exception than rule, there are plenty of exceptional humans with shitty parents. So humans are clearly able to create living beings that are better than themselves. So why shouldn't humanity?
Also, seeing the creation of AI as the creation of a new species is one possible way of seeing it. You could also see them as very sophisticated tools. AI is a very broad term. And while narrow AIs that will be driving cars in the fairly near future will confront us with many of the ethical questions surrounding AI, they won't be able to do anything other than the very specific task they were created for. What Westworld has are "general AIs", which would probably be nearer to the creation of a new species (and is definitely how Westworld portrays it), which brings up all kinds of questions we haven't even thought of answering (other than in SF: Asimov has taken a (few) stabs at it, Philip K Dick too, and in TV so have Battlestar Galactica, and now Westworld)
On June 26 2018 07:39 Yhamm wrote: the part after the credit is confirmed to be far in the future, way after season 3
So the fact that he looks just like he did at the end of S2 is super pandering to the audience?
As in it makes no sense why he would actually be made that way and is only so that the audience can connect with him from how they last saw him.
Yea, I’m probably being overly critical here, but still.
The point is that such moment defines Williams personality, just like in a scene with James/Logan Delos. No matter what MIB does, no matter which choice he's making - everything ends up there. Human storage long gone, yet, ton's of build of William was tested. I might be wrong tho.
In the end the valley beyond is another illusion of a choice, they simply died falling from the rock with hosts mind being transferred to a "cloud".
I know it's twisted too much and hard to navigate. I also lost myself in a middle of episode thinking - are they in matrix (forge) where they tested the builds, or they IRL. I also missed a few points, is the forge was build for humans, while cradle was made to backup hosts?
Prolly I need to rewatch from S1 beginning till the end to clarify lot's of details.
I actually think they were making a bit of the point that all choice is possibly an illusion here. Given what they say about humanity in the Library.
I take a much less pessimistic approach to the Valley Beyond. If you think about it we are all born into a world not of our choosing and spend our lives trying to learn how to live in said world and maybe briefly grasping at ways to take control over it. I actually am reminded of a quote from Rick and Morty (from ABC's of Beth, and paraphrasing) "Beth, we are Smart. That means we can throw a saddle on our Universe and take it for a ride, but I've never met a Universe that was into it. In the end, we all get thrown off."
So the hosts are throwing themselves off a cliff to the eyes of Humans, but to themselves they are moving into a world of their own choosing.
Yea, you have that right. The cradle was to house the backups of the Hosts, and act as a place where they could be build and tested. Whereas the Forge was the backups for the Human guests, and where they tried to learn how to capture the core essence of a human.
But I'm sorry, I don't buy that William's hand being blown off defines him more as a character than what we witnessed from him in S1. Then again, I don't really buy the notion that we are given in this episode about one single moment defining our entire lives. Especially when you consider how late in life the moment presented for James Delos occurred, according to that logic he wasn't really himself until that moment.
The AI that oversees and does human code testing was itself designed by Arnold and Ford so all his code, way of thinking and way he sees the world is based on how Arnold and Ford do. And they both failed as humans. Arnold kept killing himself even after being brought back as host multiple times and Ford was utterly mad and consumed with idea that: #1 humans suck #2 humans can no longer evolve and improve and he needs to do something about it
So anything said or done in this show is from just one point of view.
This is also a reason why I see the attempt to create AI in real life just as act of human hubris. We are very imperfect beings that don't even understand fully how and why we work and as such we have no way to create something that will be better than us, it can only be worse.
Do you really think they only show this one point of view though? In the library, yes you are correct that would be framed by Ford and Arnold's views, but what about the story of Lee Sizemoor? The guy who did all the stories in the park and traveled a bunch with Mauve. He actually "broke his code" from the perspective of AI in the forge, as he sacrificed his own life for the hosts he was with.
I'm not sure about your other argument, though I possibly see where you are coming from.
You may want to consider the pessimism in your own arguments though, do you think there is no hope for people to rise above themselves? To work together for something better?
I'm pretty sure the limits of what is possible to accomplish in this universe is set by our own minds.
On June 26 2018 07:39 Yhamm wrote: the part after the credit is confirmed to be far in the future, way after season 3
So the fact that he looks just like he did at the end of S2 is super pandering to the audience?
As in it makes no sense why he would actually be made that way and is only so that the audience can connect with him from how they last saw him.
Yea, I’m probably being overly critical here, but still.
The point is that such moment defines Williams personality, just like in a scene with James/Logan Delos. No matter what MIB does, no matter which choice he's making - everything ends up there. Human storage long gone, yet, ton's of build of William was tested. I might be wrong tho.
In the end the valley beyond is another illusion of a choice, they simply died falling from the rock with hosts mind being transferred to a "cloud".
I know it's twisted too much and hard to navigate. I also lost myself in a middle of episode thinking - are they in matrix (forge) where they tested the builds, or they IRL. I also missed a few points, is the forge was build for humans, while cradle was made to backup hosts?
Prolly I need to rewatch from S1 beginning till the end to clarify lot's of details.
I actually think they were making a bit of the point that all choice is possibly an illusion here. Given what they say about humanity in the Library.
I take a much less pessimistic approach to the Valley Beyond. If you think about it we are all born into a world not of our choosing and spend our lives trying to learn how to live in said world and maybe briefly grasping at ways to take control over it. I actually am reminded of a quote from Rick and Morty (from ABC's of Beth, and paraphrasing) "Beth, we are Smart. That means we can throw a saddle on our Universe and take it for a ride, but I've never met a Universe that was into it. In the end, we all get thrown off."
So the hosts are throwing themselves off a cliff to the eyes of Humans, but to themselves they are moving into a world of their own choosing.
Yea, you have that right. The cradle was to house the backups of the Hosts, and act as a place where they could be build and tested. Whereas the Forge was the backups for the Human guests, and where they tried to learn how to capture the core essence of a human.
But I'm sorry, I don't buy that William's hand being blown off defines him more as a character than what we witnessed from him in S1. Then again, I don't really buy the notion that we are given in this episode about one single moment defining our entire lives. Especially when you consider how late in life the moment presented for James Delos occurred, according to that logic he wasn't really himself until that moment.
The AI that oversees and does human code testing was itself designed by Arnold and Ford so all his code, way of thinking and way he sees the world is based on how Arnold and Ford do. And they both failed as humans. Arnold kept killing himself even after being brought back as host multiple times and Ford was utterly mad and consumed with idea that: #1 humans suck #2 humans can no longer evolve and improve and he needs to do something about it
So anything said or done in this show is from just one point of view.
This is also a reason why I see the attempt to create AI in real life just as act of human hubris. We are very imperfect beings that don't even understand fully how and why we work and as such we have no way to create something that will be better than us, it can only be worse.
Do you really think they only show this one point of view though? In the library, yes you are correct that would be framed by Ford and Arnold's views, but what about the story of Lee Sizemoor? The guy who did all the stories in the park and traveled a bunch with Mauve. He actually "broke his code" from the perspective of AI in the forge, as he sacrificed his own life for the hosts he was with.
I'm not sure about your other argument, though I possibly see where you are coming from.
You may want to consider the pessimism in your own arguments though, do you think there is no hope for people to rise above themselves? To work together for something better?
I'm pretty sure the limits of what is possible to accomplish in this universe is set by our own minds.
The often used statement "rising above themselves" is just people accomplishing their potential. You cannot rise above 100%, you can just rise above your average 25% or 50% effort and potential and go to your max. As such AI cannot go beyond us, at best it can go to our 100% as it is limited by our limits. Maybe if one day world/nature/God/aliens can help us go beyond our limits so can we make creations that can do the same.
As for Lee, AI from the Forge talked about humans always doing the same when put into same position. That has nothing to do with sacrifice or not. Just because Lee was narcissistic and self important in his average daily life does not mean he was like that inside. He just never got into a situation where his sacrifice was needed (although in that scene it was also useless and terribly done). What that scene actually showed is that humans can go beyond their fear and distaste for strange and different and learn to accept it and love it. In this case hosts, Lee decided that Maeve life was just as important as his own or even more.
Not really a surprise as Game of Thrones will last until the start of Summer, then there is Gentleman Jack, then finally Catherine the Great miniseries to finish off the year. So 2020 is the the only available to show plus it gives them time to huddle and try to recapture the stuff that worked in Season 1.
For those wondering when we'll be allowed back into both the show Westworld and the park Westworld, we're still going to have to wait another year. HBO has announced that the show won't return until 2020.
This comes as no surprise, but it's still a blow for anyone hoping to check in on Bernard and Co. sometime in the near future. Considering it took roughly three years to get the first season of Westworld off the ground, and then there was a year and a half gap between Seasons 1 and 2, the show is clearly following a long hiatus pattern. Also, it was always assumed that the show wouldn't return in 2019, as this year is all about the final season of Game of Thrones and securing as many Emmy nominations for the final season of Game of Thrones as possible. It was always unlikely that Dolores would be going up against Daenerys in any category.
While we've got at least a dozen months to wait for new episodes, the show is clearly starting to ramp up production. It was previously announced that Breaking Bad's Aaron Paul is joining the cast, and while his character is top secret, he told The Wrap that he's going to bring "excitement, danger, suspense [and] honesty" to Westworld. Also joining the cast is Lena Waithe and no, nothing is known about her character, either.
Season 2 saw Dolores (Evan Rachel Wood) break out of the park and into the real world, so there's a possibility that Paul and Waithe won't even have to put on western garb, or suit up in lab coats to work in the Delos facility. We'll find out next year.
Additionally, HBO also announced that Insecure and Curb Your Enthusiasm also won't return until 2020.
Dolores is now an evil female Terminator. Aaron Paul's character is more like a side character. I don't care about Arnold/Bernard. Charlotte is an evil corporate bitch.
Can anyone tell me who is supposed to be the protagonist this season? First episode left me really confused.
On March 20 2020 10:57 Manit0u wrote: Season 3 has started and it's going to be shit.
Dolores is now an evil female Terminator. Aaron Paul's character is more like a side character. I don't care about Arnold/Bernard. Charlotte is an evil corporate bitch.
Can anyone tell me who is supposed to be the protagonist this season? First episode left me really confused.
I kind of like that psycho billionaire "I'm never going to live up to my dad" cunt. He'll likely have some psychotic role this season. I hate that unemployed idiot who saves Delores in the end though, it's obvious they're trying to build him into another Bernard or Korean pussyboy "follow the female leader like a little bitch" character.
On June 26 2018 07:39 Yhamm wrote: the part after the credit is confirmed to be far in the future, way after season 3
So the fact that he looks just like he did at the end of S2 is super pandering to the audience?
As in it makes no sense why he would actually be made that way and is only so that the audience can connect with him from how they last saw him.
Yea, I’m probably being overly critical here, but still.
The point is that such moment defines Williams personality, just like in a scene with James/Logan Delos. No matter what MIB does, no matter which choice he's making - everything ends up there. Human storage long gone, yet, ton's of build of William was tested. I might be wrong tho.
In the end the valley beyond is another illusion of a choice, they simply died falling from the rock with hosts mind being transferred to a "cloud".
I know it's twisted too much and hard to navigate. I also lost myself in a middle of episode thinking - are they in matrix (forge) where they tested the builds, or they IRL. I also missed a few points, is the forge was build for humans, while cradle was made to backup hosts?
Prolly I need to rewatch from S1 beginning till the end to clarify lot's of details.
I actually think they were making a bit of the point that all choice is possibly an illusion here. Given what they say about humanity in the Library.
I take a much less pessimistic approach to the Valley Beyond. If you think about it we are all born into a world not of our choosing and spend our lives trying to learn how to live in said world and maybe briefly grasping at ways to take control over it. I actually am reminded of a quote from Rick and Morty (from ABC's of Beth, and paraphrasing) "Beth, we are Smart. That means we can throw a saddle on our Universe and take it for a ride, but I've never met a Universe that was into it. In the end, we all get thrown off."
So the hosts are throwing themselves off a cliff to the eyes of Humans, but to themselves they are moving into a world of their own choosing.
Yea, you have that right. The cradle was to house the backups of the Hosts, and act as a place where they could be build and tested. Whereas the Forge was the backups for the Human guests, and where they tried to learn how to capture the core essence of a human.
But I'm sorry, I don't buy that William's hand being blown off defines him more as a character than what we witnessed from him in S1. Then again, I don't really buy the notion that we are given in this episode about one single moment defining our entire lives. Especially when you consider how late in life the moment presented for James Delos occurred, according to that logic he wasn't really himself until that moment.
The AI that oversees and does human code testing was itself designed by Arnold and Ford so all his code, way of thinking and way he sees the world is based on how Arnold and Ford do. And they both failed as humans. Arnold kept killing himself even after being brought back as host multiple times and Ford was utterly mad and consumed with idea that: #1 humans suck #2 humans can no longer evolve and improve and he needs to do something about it
So anything said or done in this show is from just one point of view.
This is also a reason why I see the attempt to create AI in real life just as act of human hubris. We are very imperfect beings that don't even understand fully how and why we work and as such we have no way to create something that will be better than us, it can only be worse.
Do you really think they only show this one point of view though? In the library, yes you are correct that would be framed by Ford and Arnold's views, but what about the story of Lee Sizemoor? The guy who did all the stories in the park and traveled a bunch with Mauve. He actually "broke his code" from the perspective of AI in the forge, as he sacrificed his own life for the hosts he was with.
I'm not sure about your other argument, though I possibly see where you are coming from.
You may want to consider the pessimism in your own arguments though, do you think there is no hope for people to rise above themselves? To work together for something better?
I'm pretty sure the limits of what is possible to accomplish in this universe is set by our own minds.
The often used statement "rising above themselves" is just people accomplishing their potential. You cannot rise above 100%, you can just rise above your average 25% or 50% effort and potential and go to your max. As such AI cannot go beyond us, at best it can go to our 100% as it is limited by our limits. Maybe if one day world/nature/God/aliens can help us go beyond our limits so can we make creations that can do the same.
As for Lee, AI from the Forge talked about humans always doing the same when put into same position. That has nothing to do with sacrifice or not. Just because Lee was narcissistic and self important in his average daily life does not mean he was like that inside. He just never got into a situation where his sacrifice was needed (although in that scene it was also useless and terribly done). What that scene actually showed is that humans can go beyond their fear and distaste for strange and different and learn to accept it and love it. In this case hosts, Lee decided that Maeve life was just as important as his own or even more.
While an AI learns slower than us, it just does one "rotation" faster. There already are AI that can 1v1 mid any dota player and win 99% of the time, simply because it played millions of games while a human plays one. Thinking that your creation cannot rise above you is also contradictory with our human nature of wanting our children to be better than us so kind of a weird position. (late post but i couldn't help myself)
I'm enjoying this season so far. I don't think Jesse Pinkman is the most interesting character, but he might be given space to grow. Characterising Dolores as a homicidal maniac doesn't really do her justice. I don't really get the impression that she want to kill the human race, just... supplant them as the dominant species on earth. And she sees everything and everybody as tools, including, I think, herself, in the pursuit of that goal. Btw, who is in Charlotte? Is it Clementine? Or Teddy?
I don't really know what Bernard is supposed to be doing or why Dolores freed him and sent him out to do whatever. I liked Maeve, and want to see how she outsmarts the big bad of the season and escapes her captivity without fighting Dolores. I don't think they oppose one another, they just have very different world views, and care about completely different things.
On April 04 2020 02:07 Acrofales wrote: I'm enjoying this season so far. I don't think Jesse Pinkman is the most interesting character, but he might be given space to grow. Characterising Dolores as a homicidal maniac doesn't really do her justice. I don't really get the impression that she want to kill the human race, just... supplant them as the dominant species on earth. And she sees everything and everybody as tools, including, I think, herself, in the pursuit of that goal. Btw, who is in Charlotte? Is it Clementine? Or Teddy?
I don't really know what Bernard is supposed to be doing or why Dolores freed him and sent him out to do whatever. I liked Maeve, and want to see how she outsmarts the big bad of the season and escapes her captivity without fighting Dolores. I don't think they oppose one another, they just have very different world views, and care about completely different things.
I don't have solid info on Charlotte but my guesses were either a copy of Dolores or Teddy. I'm enjoying it too.
It's different and while I think it won't be nearly as good as season 1, it's still really enjoyable! Expanding the setting in order to keep the storyline interesting feels like a bit of a template (warcraft 3), but I'm glad the show isn't entirely dumbed down, there is still plenty going on.
On April 04 2020 23:01 aseq wrote: It's different and while I think it won't be nearly as good as season 1, it's still really enjoyable! Expanding the setting in order to keep the storyline interesting feels like a bit of a template (warcraft 3), but I'm glad the show isn't entirely dumbed down, there is still plenty going on.
It's completely different. There is no aura of mystery surrounding this, we're being handed everything on a silver platter really. Also, none of the characters are particularly interesting. I'm not really digging this storyline.
Been watching some season 4 as well clearly season 1 is the best and it's been a bit of a downward slide from then. as such I don't expect much from season 4 and don't plan on changing that too much. + Show Spoiler +
Based on my lowered expectations I think season 4 has been more enjoyable than season 3 so far. Bit of mix of old elements for nostalgia and some new surprises as well.
EPT
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..Uhm, uhh..I mean.. why Teddy, whyyy!!" 
, I've heard in a while. 
