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Well it's quite arguable how much character development dragonball really has. It's not that much 
Well i would say "fiction" is like that. And in anime "fighting shonen" are still behind other forms where we get more sophisticated structures, more character development, etc. Though even there it gets better. I would say that dragonball is one of the weaker ones here for sure.
Well yes ofc giving cell the bean was stupid. But what about having faith in gohan? I might be wrong, but wasn't goku simply not strong enough for cell? But he "knew" gohan would be.
Not sure about your theory here, i think goku had actual reasons for what he did against cell (he trained with gohan and sensed that gohan can do the next step), right now it would be completely foolish.
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On June 26 2017 05:30 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I also have reason to believe that person Whis was talking about, the one stronger than a GoD, is Gohan.
So Beerus lost an arm-wrestling match against himself? 
I mean he quite literally says that person is from a universe with a GoD stronger than Beerus.
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On June 26 2017 05:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:Well it's quite arguable how much character development dragonball really has. It's not that much Well i would say "fiction" is like that. And in anime "fighting shonen" are still behind other forms where we get more sophisticated structures, more character development, etc. Though even there it gets better. I would say that dragonball is one of the weaker ones here for sure. Well yes ofc giving cell the bean was stupid. But what about having faith in gohan? I might be wrong, but wasn't goku simply not strong enough for cell? But he "knew" gohan would be. Not sure about your theory here, i think goku had actual reasons for what he did against cell (he trained with gohan and sensed that gohan can do the next step), right now it would be completely foolish.
Once Piccolo made Goku see that Gohan wasn't like him and that Cell could very well kill his kid, Goku realized that he made a mistake. It took for 16 dying and everyone basically being beaten to death, for Gohan to release SSJ2. If he hadn't then what? Goku messed up. He was strong enough and he could have gone the distance if he had tried. Instant Transmission to some remote planet would have taken care of Cell (or whatever).
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Goku always overestimates the ability of any specific character to have the ability to turn an advantage in power into a victory. He made that mistake with Cell Saga Gohan and got killed for it, in Buu saga with Trunks and Goten being assumed to have the maturity to finish things off (and also his "let's not waste the Hyperbolic Time Chamber while we still need it" BS), and the ability of Gohan in Buu saga to have the fighting sense to outdo Super Buu. People gave him shit for that in Super but Goku is and always has been one clumsy motherfucker.
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On June 26 2017 05:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2017 05:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:Well it's quite arguable how much character development dragonball really has. It's not that much Well i would say "fiction" is like that. And in anime "fighting shonen" are still behind other forms where we get more sophisticated structures, more character development, etc. Though even there it gets better. I would say that dragonball is one of the weaker ones here for sure. Well yes ofc giving cell the bean was stupid. But what about having faith in gohan? I might be wrong, but wasn't goku simply not strong enough for cell? But he "knew" gohan would be. Not sure about your theory here, i think goku had actual reasons for what he did against cell (he trained with gohan and sensed that gohan can do the next step), right now it would be completely foolish. Once Piccolo made Goku see that Gohan wasn't like him and that Cell could very well kill his kid, Goku realized that he made a mistake. It took for 16 dying and everyone basically being beaten to death, for Gohan to release SSJ2. If he hadn't then what? Goku messed up. He was strong enough and he could have gone the distance if he had tried. Instant Transmission to some remote planet would have taken care of Cell (or whatever).
Instant Transmission can only send Goku to energy signatures he can sense - uninhabited worlds are out of the question. He was weaker than Cell, so realistically, to kill Cell Goku would have probably had to blow up significant parts of Earth.
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Then he should have sensed something away from Earth and poofed there. There had to be more than one way for them to defeat Cell without destroying significant parts of the Earth. If they all teamed up (like they did at the end) and used their strongest attacks, I'm pretty sure they could have done it. I'm just saying, going off of his past idiotic moments, I'm expecting something similar in Super, where he hinges everything on Gohan being a fighter and reaching his level.
Elentos, I was messing around with the GoD rival being Gohan. I have no clue who or what that could be. We still have...5 universes without fighters present.
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On June 26 2017 05:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Elentos, I was messing around with the GoD rival being Gohan. I have no clue who or what that could be. We still have...5 universes without fighters present.
Much as I love Gohan, I can't see him reach Godmode / Kaioken-SSB Goku mode, in just the 48mins of the tournament. Especially since he mentioned he's going to 'reach for a new transform with a different method' than the standard Saiyan route', which hints that maybe this time for him it won't just be about rageing. IMHO he could do well against Kale (or at most, Toppo), but not Hit or Jiren.
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Agreed. I'm curious as to how he'll reach his newest level without going the route Goku or Vegeta did. I can only think that he's planning on doing more Kai training and push his Mystic level to something that reaches God level.
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On June 26 2017 04:47 Slaughter wrote:
The problem with Gohan has always been that he isn't a fighter. He has massive potential but isn't interested in fighting except when its needed.
I'm beginning to wonder whether we'll ever see him reach it. If current Goku/Freeza (and surely, newly trained Vegeta) are close to Godmode, then surely, fully developed Gohan should be a God slayer. Not sure how interesting the series gets at that point.
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On June 26 2017 08:02 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2017 04:47 Slaughter wrote:
The problem with Gohan has always been that he isn't a fighter. He has massive potential but isn't interested in fighting except when its needed. I'm beginning to wonder whether we'll ever see him reach it. If current Goku/Freeza (and surely, newly trained Vegeta) are close to Godmode, then surely, fully developed Gohan should be a God slayer. Not sure how interesting the series gets at that point.
More Gohan is always better. I just wish the dub would catch up. I'm suffering with the Japanese VAs.
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On June 26 2017 08:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2017 08:02 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On June 26 2017 04:47 Slaughter wrote:
The problem with Gohan has always been that he isn't a fighter. He has massive potential but isn't interested in fighting except when its needed. I'm beginning to wonder whether we'll ever see him reach it. If current Goku/Freeza (and surely, newly trained Vegeta) are close to Godmode, then surely, fully developed Gohan should be a God slayer. Not sure how interesting the series gets at that point. More Gohan is always better. I just wish the dub would catch up. I'm suffering with the Japanese VAs.
Totally. He's actually the guy you'd want to be in real life : a PhD scholar, married to a cute and rich girl with a loving family, and oh, only the third or fourth strongest dude in his universe without really even trying. Never understood the hate.
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On June 26 2017 08:17 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2017 08:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On June 26 2017 08:02 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On June 26 2017 04:47 Slaughter wrote:
The problem with Gohan has always been that he isn't a fighter. He has massive potential but isn't interested in fighting except when its needed. I'm beginning to wonder whether we'll ever see him reach it. If current Goku/Freeza (and surely, newly trained Vegeta) are close to Godmode, then surely, fully developed Gohan should be a God slayer. Not sure how interesting the series gets at that point. More Gohan is always better. I just wish the dub would catch up. I'm suffering with the Japanese VAs. Totally. He's actually the guy you'd want to be in real life : a PhD scholar, married to a cute and rich girl with a loving family, and oh, only the third or fourth strongest dude in his universe without really even trying. Never understood the hate.
He is no fighter and never properly appreciates the responsibility bestowed unto him as a gifted fighter. Perhaps he never wanted that legacy, but few can deny that he should be better prepared for battle in general. He always ends up fucking up because he isn't much of a fighter, and has none of that combat sense.
If I were born with godly powers, damn right I would realize that I have the responsibility to use them to protect the world from harm. Failing to do so would simply be utterly irresponsible. That jobber attitude of Gohan really murders his character appeal.
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I feel Toriyama assassinated his character and passed it over to ChiChi. Blame her for being overbearing on Gohan. But then you get Goten and it just...ugh. This family man...
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On June 26 2017 08:30 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2017 08:17 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On June 26 2017 08:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On June 26 2017 08:02 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On June 26 2017 04:47 Slaughter wrote:
The problem with Gohan has always been that he isn't a fighter. He has massive potential but isn't interested in fighting except when its needed. I'm beginning to wonder whether we'll ever see him reach it. If current Goku/Freeza (and surely, newly trained Vegeta) are close to Godmode, then surely, fully developed Gohan should be a God slayer. Not sure how interesting the series gets at that point. More Gohan is always better. I just wish the dub would catch up. I'm suffering with the Japanese VAs. Totally. He's actually the guy you'd want to be in real life : a PhD scholar, married to a cute and rich girl with a loving family, and oh, only the third or fourth strongest dude in his universe without really even trying. Never understood the hate. He is no fighter and never properly appreciates the responsibility bestowed unto him as a gifted fighter. Perhaps he never wanted that legacy, but few can deny that he should be better prepared for battle in general. He always ends up fucking up because he isn't much of a fighter, and has none of that combat sense. If I were born with godly powers, damn right I would realize that I have the responsibility to use them to protect the world from harm. Failing to do so would simply be utterly irresponsible. That jobber attitude of Gohan really murders his character appeal.
His father (as well as another spiky-haired family friend) traded equal blows with Gods of destruction and is best mates with the actual real God. His little brother promises to be even more of a fighting prodigy than him in a few years' time. His childhood friend berserked a God, admittedly in another timeline. He'd be forgiven for not feeling the urgency of imminent danger. If anything, to me, the arrogance of his not training because he knows his Mystic base is so strong adds to his humanity.
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Gohan comes through when needed. He always has. But with Goku, Vegeta, and Gotenks, he's not needed as nearly as much. I'm sure if he wanted to be a fighter, he could be a fighter. That's why he picked up Great Saiyaman. He wanted to keep being useful after Goku died and his little brother was growing up. He took up a lot of responsibility before Goku was brought back to life.
It's not that he's not a fighter, it's that he's not needed.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I love Gohan but man, the whole he stopped fighting and is now a scholar kills me. One of my favourite parts of dbz is how Gohan always went above and beyond all expectations. His mini power-ups and push backs against Raditz, freiza's various forms, his SSJ level-up, fight against Cell and leveling up to SSJ2, mystic Gohan etc... Heck, even though the Saiyaman arc is cringeworthy at times, I liked that we saw another side of Gohan and he still at least maintained something around fi ghting (watching over the city here etc...).
I think he can be strong as Goku and Vegeta but I question his approach to reach god like powers. What is he going to do, train in the time chamber for a long time? How much further can he actually go? I hope Toriyama doesn't string up along for the ride only to have Gohan say, ok, I'm done here, going back to my scholarly life and never training again etc...
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On June 26 2017 09:26 BigFan wrote:
I love Gohan but man, the whole he stopped fighting and is now a scholar kills me. One of my favourite parts of dbz is how Gohan always went above and beyond all expectations. His mini power-ups and push backs against Raditz, freiza's various forms, his SSJ level-up, fight against Cell and leveling up to SSJ2, mystic Gohan etc... Heck, even though the Saiyaman arc is cringeworthy at times, I liked that we saw another side of Gohan and he still at least maintained something around fi ghting (watching over the city here etc...).
I think he can be strong as Goku and Vegeta but I question his approach to reach god like powers. What is he going to do, train in the time chamber for a long time? How much further can he actually go? I hope Toriyama doesn't string up along for the ride only to have Gohan say, ok, I'm done here, going back to my scholarly life and never training again etc...
I think Toriyama's doing the right thing with Gohan going his own way :
- Gohan becomes lazy again after tournament -> boring
- Gohan trains with Beerus & Whis for ~under a year, learns SSB just like Goku & Vegeta but 20y younger -> boring
- Gohan combines kaioken + godly destruction ki + godly creation ki, becomes stronger than Gods -> series ends, boring
- Gohan murks around and finally becomes something new and special -> now we're talking.
Seems like the only rational plot choice. What's not clear to me is how to make him stronger than Goku, in accordance with the potential line, without making him overpowered. Especially if Goku ends up 'passing his limit' in the tournament.
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The second to last is something I would rather see. I don't want to see Gohan being bitch-slapped until Goku or Vegeta arrives.
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They kinda seemed to be pointing to Gohan learning to take his power more seriously with all the little pushes he has been getting and realizations. So maybe after this he at least part time trains, I don't see him giving up what he loves (scholar) totally but more so then what he had been.
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Was it episode 89 he went Mystic and fought Goku?
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EPT
