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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 16 2014 13:26 dormer wrote:
As always, I enjoyed the episode, but... No Tysha talk. Pretty "meh" Stannis arrival. I don't know. Couldn't they have cut out the pointless Grey Worm scene a few weeks back and had more time for important stuff?
Changing from Tysha to Shae was fine, given the how they treated Shae's character.
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I loved the episode. But then again, I watch the show without constantly comparing every scene to the books and start moaning when the books did it better. I seriously don't get people who do that and then end up surprised that the books have more detail and are better thought out. Well.. duh.
I mean, people complaining about the lack of Tysha? Seriously? There was zero build-up for her story and her importance in Tyrion's life in the last few episodes, let alone the entire season. What the heck did you expect? That she'll suddenly become a character so important that Tyrion will murder his own father over her? Even though only the most attentive unsullied would even know who the hell Tysha was in the first place? Yes, the books did that whole sequence much better. It was more impactful, it had more meaning, everything about it was better compared to the show. I'm not disputing that. But it's entirely unrealistic to expect the show to do a sequence just as good. All this time Shae has been built up as a replacement for Tysha, and while that made the overall story a good bit weaker, they still did the best they could with it.
I absolutely loved the Brienne/Hound fight, both of them fighting dirty made it feel so much more realistic than two brave knights clanging swords together for a few minutes. The whole scene was really well done, too. Also loved the skeleton fight, as cheesy and RPG-y as it was, it was still tons of fun to watch. Bit disappointed in the guy in the tree, though. Thought they'd use some awesome special effects for him, but in the end he was just a dude who was pretty much just sitting in a tree. Really looking forward to Bran-the-flashback-machine in the next season, though. Oh the possibilities..
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On June 16 2014 13:47 aokces wrote:
All the dialogue between Jaime/Tyrion was cut, nothing about
1. Tysha - implies she won't ever appear in the books
2. Joffrey hiring Bran's assassin - not relevant anymore, but has a nice sense of closure
3. Cersei sleeping with Lancel - in the Books that drives Jaime apart from her, but right now Jaime and Cersei seem closer than ever
Lack of UnCat is fine, she only has two scenes in all the books, they don't really have anything to work with. Besides, the episode is cramped enough as it is.
Stannis had way more cavalry than I imagined, I assume they get supplies from south of the wall to feed everyone.
Sad that Arya never got her wolf bread. Why mention Jaime Lannister when you should've mention Hot Pie? The 4 of them could've all exchanged stories over some delicious bread.
I think the Tyrion plot changes are fine. I always thought the book had too much dialogue in that escape.
The reason why I'm pissed about not getting LSH is not because it's important to the plot but because we got trolled hard.
Agreed that The Brienne / Hound encounter should have played out differently. But they need to get the storyline to converge with the book, so I think that was fitting.
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On June 16 2014 19:20 daemir wrote:
The whole Jaime - Cercei - Tyrion thing was completely out of whack. Wait, so now it's Cercei who wants to end the pretending and hiding and just up and goes to tell Tywin? What in the...and it looked almost like Jaime would be the one opposed.
Jaime - Tyrion relations are weird now, what's Jaime gonna think about Tyrion after they find Tywin dead?
Wildling host being a good 30 men and I'm being generous. Come on, there was talk of a hundred thousand men, that forest should have been crawling. Instead, what I'd say 600 mounted men charge in to the forest and...fight over? GG WP.
600? i just counted them, its 1500 from each side, so 3000 total. Thats what you can see from the formations that charge into the forest, I guess thats not all of them
edit:
proof:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xVzbtiS.jpg)
16 * 3 * 33 = 1584 man, same from the south
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They probably also have ground troops somewhere, but obviously the horsemen will get there first
Either way where's the 100k army and how did jon snow know exactl where to walk
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On June 16 2014 22:40 KOFgokuon wrote:
They probably also have ground troops somewhere, but obviously the horsemen will get there first
Either way where's the 100k army and how did jon snow know exactl where to walk
He was told by the writer the exact location of Mance so we don't need to watch him walk for the whole episode...
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France7248 Posts
wow, I don't get the negativity about this episode... I thought it was really good
-the entrance of Stannis was quite epic I think, but the poor part was the army of the wildlings, as if there were none. The scene with Jon and Mance was nice
-Brienne & the Hound, I was really afraid about that, but it actually was awesome. When Hound said he was protecting Arya, almost had tears :D the fight was excellent, and Arya staring him begging for death, that was strong
-Dany & the dragons was ok
-I was expecting a stronger scene between Jaime & Tyrion, that's maybe the only part of the episode where I am really disappointed. Tyrion & Tywin was good, I understand they let the tysha part out. I mean, who remember her? he talked about her once? and that was in season 2 I think, in the tent with Shae and Bronn
and no Uncat? well it's fine really... it's not like she will be a major character in season 5, so to have a cliffhanger on a character we will almost never see at all for the next season could have been bad after all. I still expect her to be here in S5, but no reason to be so mad for not being here in S4.
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who wants to compare LotR to GoT again after this battle?
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Personally I think leaving Jaime and Tyrion be buddies is fine, they had such good chemistry together, their hug at the end was so well done. Jaime and Cersei will have other reasons for their falling out, and if Jaime and Tyrion don't have significant interactions in the future I then I agree with disciple
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On June 16 2014 23:08 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
who wants to compare LotR to GoT again after this battle?
when gandalf arrived with the Rohirrim on the dawn of the fifth day it did a better job of portraying a darkest hour savior. also i know about budget differences but its a good example of how armies can be made to appear larger.
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I'm incredibly disappointed by them changing Tyrion's escape so much. Jaime and Tyrion being honest to each other (Tysha, Joffrey sending the assassin) was an incredibly strong book scene, defining both their characters a lot.
Very weak episode.
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What are they planning to do with Bran? With the scenes they sneaked in this episode, I think his story is almost done already (1 chapter from the books remaining?).
edit: I forgot, happy father's day to Tywin.
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Damn. How did they manage to FUCK UP this finale... Im glad i started reading the books last year.
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On June 16 2014 23:37 massivez wrote:
Damn. How did they manage to FUCK UP this finale... Im glad i started reading the books last year.
If you hadn't read the books, chances are you would have enjoyed the finale and not considered it a fuckup 
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Well theres a good amount of Reek stuff next season. A bit of Jon/Stannis/Melisandre stuff. Jaime has to set out. Cersei has to have her downward spiral. How they handle Arya's stuff is anybody's guess. Then we have Tyrion heading overseas and meeting fellow noblemen in exile Griff and Jorah. Dany and Barristan have some stuff to get through but nothing too meaty. No idea how much time will be spent on Dorne (Is Quentyn cut?) Then we have Sansa who is basically caught all the way up at this point, and Bran who needs maybe 1 or 2 more scenes with Bloodraven before he is also caught up. After that he is relegated to visions and flashbacks (flashbacks would be really hard to do in the show)
So if we're getting two more seasons, what do they do with Bran and Sansa is the question? Will it all go into one season? Will tWoW material start showing up?
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I absolutely expect to see TWOW material to show up next season already.
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Yeah, Stannis' arrival was really weak. Mance commands an army of a hundred thousand!... but somehow only has a handful of men camped just outside the wall. When I read the books I always imagined that there was miles and miles of people camping along the wall in the woods, massive chaos when Stannis attacks and a victory not because of numbers but because the wildlings were not disciplined at all and had no chance against a cavalry charge.
They BUTCHERED that scene.
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On June 16 2014 22:11 Conti wrote:
I loved the episode. But then again, I watch the show without constantly comparing every scene to the books and start moaning when the books did it better. I seriously don't get people who do that and then end up surprised that the books have more detail and are better thought out. Well.. duh.
I mean, people complaining about the lack of Tysha? Seriously? There was zero build-up for her story and her importance in Tyrion's life in the last few episodes, let alone the entire season. What the heck did you expect? That she'll suddenly become a character so important that Tyrion will murder his own father over her? Even though only the most attentive unsullied would even know who the hell Tysha was in the first place? Yes, the books did that whole sequence much better. It was more impactful, it had more meaning, everything about it was better compared to the show. I'm not disputing that. But it's entirely unrealistic to expect the show to do a sequence just as good. All this time Shae has been built up as a replacement for Tysha, and while that made the overall story a good bit weaker, they still did the best they could with it.
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agree, people bitch too much about show vs books T_T i would have liked stannis arrival be more epic but i enjoyed it nonetheless. i liked tyrion scenes even thought they probably rushed them.
still a GREAT season. roll on young griff, iron islands, dorne and stannis at the wall next season 
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On June 16 2014 18:29 Spaylz wrote:
Ehhhh. The episode was okay. I didn't like it all that much.
It felt very rushed for one. Also, they cut so much dialogue... How can they get rid of Jaime and Tyrion's exchange, really? It is so crucial to the conflicted relationship they have. Also, I was kind of baffled to see that Tyrion, out of nowhere, goes, "hey, I'll go see my dad's chambers". Without Jaime telling him all about Tysha, it makes little sense. It also makes less sense that he is able to find it without Varys, though I think these weren't secret passages, were they? If so, it's also a little bothersome, as there is literally no one around. He's supposed to be a highly guarded prisoner. And does Varys get on the same ship when he hears the bells? That's what I got from the scene.
Yeah it had to be a secret passage because Tyrion came up thru a floor tile into Tywin's chambers. The problem is that Shae never visited him this way, Varys never took him thru any secret tunnels and it was never mentioned on the show, but some how Tyrion not only knows they exist, but knows exactly which one goes to Tywin's chamber? In the books Tyrion literally has no one he loves left, no connections with the Lannisters to call on for money or aid, and now he still has Jaime, someone he loves who loves him back because they didn't have this falling out over learning that Tysha actually wasn't a whore.
I knew they were going to cut Tysha as soon as the story wasn't retold on the "previously on game of thrones" prelude though, which would have been a perfectly reasonable way to remind viewers who she was. The loss of Tysha greatly weakened all of Tyrion's scenes. They could have easily reminded viewers via the prelude, via talking to Jaime, hell they could have took out the long winded beetle story and talked about it then too, or had a conversation with Varys and Tyrion to further touch on the subject. There are a number of ways they could have reminded the viewers. It was so weak to have him kill Shae in self defense and then kill Tywin because he called Shae a whore.. Even if you are going to make this change, and say that Tyrion still loves Shae even after she betrayed him and then slept with his dad, and then tried to kill him (which is opposite of how his book character felt), shouldn't he at least confront him about the hypocrisy of sleeping with a whore after all the shit he has given Tyrion? Speaking of shit, how do you not include a line referencing that Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold? Yes Tyrion thought it and didn't say it in the books, but still.
I liked the Arya scenes. I don't like that Brienne can kick Sandor's ass though. To all the supporters of the Cleganebowl theory, I have a question: if Sandor can't beat Brienne, how do you imagine that he'll beat UnGregor? As powerful as Brienne is, I think Sandor should beat her. On that same arc, I feel like they handled it well though. I like Sandor at the end. He outright admits he's watching over her, because, well, short of ransoming her or anything else, it's really the only purpose he can give to himself as the fugitive he is. Then he goes back to being hateful and bitter, and then he begs. It just illustrates well how lost he truly is. I liked it.
The ending confrontation with Hound and Arya was great. The Brienne vs Hound confrontation made little sense.
Westeros.org sums it up pretty well:
The logic of the scene of the Hound and Arya at the Bloody Gate escaped us. Lysa was dead, fine—but Robin Arryn was alive, so why wouldn’t the Hound hope Arya’s cousin might pay a ransom fro her? Fine, Littlefinger was in charge—isn’t he a man the Hound can consider striking a deal with? Fine, Littlefinger can’t be trusted—but wouldn’t the Knight of the Bloody Gate and his men decide that the long-missing niece of their recently-deceased lady, accompanied by a former Kingsguard to Joffrey, should be held until the Eyrie was informed? All such questions could have been avoided readily enough—the Hound and Arya are within sight of the Bloody Gate when a wayfarer shares the news that Lysa’s wed and Littlefinger is in charge, Arya laughs, and the Hound turns them around—but instead they seemed to have pushed for the “funnier” scene and abandoned cause and effect. So when we see Arya and the Hound again… what happened? They just left? Nothing more than that? There’s a strange myopia, at times, to the production, the big moments existing for their own sake, questions about plausibility be damned.
The confrontation between Brienne and the Hound itself might seem to fall afoul of this, as well, when Brienne is looked at in the context of the novels. But the scene actually emphasizes how far the Brienne of the show is from the character of the novels; her sharp, almost brutish aggression (she is, after all, the one who draws steel first and makes a fight inevitable) is a stark contrast to the character of the novel, who fights for the good and the true but without a giant chip on her shoulder. It’s a valid turn—the character is older, somewhat more worldly-wise, less romantic (although this particular aspect of the character means she’s moved further away from being a parallel not to Arya—as the show toys with here—but with Sansa)—but one that does lead to a confrontation that feels like it could very well have been avoided. Perhaps that’s the meaning of it all: its sheer meaningless, as Brienne and the Hound fight over who will better protect Arya, rather than whether one of them is good and the other is bad.
A tragic misunderstanding? Maybe. It certainly does lead to a brutal, ugly fight (whose choppy editing I dislike up to a point; once it becomes teeth-and-nails-and-fists-and-rocks, it’s much more suitable) that resolves dramatically, and leads to the finest performance Rory McCann has given to date as he declares that it’s the end of the road for the Hound, and for Maisie Williams, whose watchful eyes, almost dead, take it all in as she comes to a decision.
Brienne also doesn't answer the question of where she would take Arya to "protect her" and seems to ignore Arya's desire to stay where she is. In the books she doesn't know Lysa is dead and doesn't actually find either Arya or Sansa making it moot. How Brienne and Pod could be searching for Arya and give up in time for Arya to go visit the Hound I don't know.
And lastly, I feel like they are ruining Cersei's character. She is nothing like she is in the books. Cersei would NEVER admit to the truth in front of her father, let alone be all passionnate about it to Jaime afterwards, if not to manipulate him. They are whitewashing her character a lot... But I guess it serves its purposes. Nonetheless, I prefer the absolute bitch that Cersei is in the books.
Cersei should be right in line with Joffrey as villains that viewers want to see get their just due, but show Cersei just isn't the same character and Jaime randomly switches from being at the state of the books where he is devoted to restoring his honor, and not giving a damn about the white cloak in the show (he has already offered to sell it for Tyrion's life and then despoiled the King's Guard room and his vows by fucking Cersei there). He is on good terms with Cersei and Tyrion, so why not give more help to Tyrion? He could willingly become heir to Casterly Rock like his father wanted AND not marry someone else, have the money to support Tyrion, and still have Cersei who all the sudden is back in love with him randomly after being raped last time they were together (I know the writers didn't intend for it to come across that way, but even so it's 100% opposite of her book character to be in love with Jaime and not care what the people think. She cares, and Jaime not caring and being a threat to reveal their relationship is the major wedge, even more than Tyrion's comments that push them apart. Cersei revealing her relationship with Jaime to Tywin and that being a "win" also made no sense. Book Tywin would likely respond with “Oh, go ahead—reveal it all, just don’t expect me or my Lannister army to be here any longer if you do, and don’t be surprised at what the Tyrells and Martells will make of your incestuous bastards.” Cersei wanted the power and Cersei wanted to protect her children. Her threat to reveal their true nature would cause both to be lost.
Oh, and as expected, I was disappointed by their portrayal of Stannis yet again. They made him look like a savior, a tiny bit, but he barely showed up... Overall, Stannis has had like, what, a half hour of screen time the whole season? Hopefully, and logically, he should have a lot more in S5. But eh... Him coming to the Wall was not the great relief and moment of glory that it was in the books. Also, and even more importantly, no "Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!". And is Stannis too proud to speak his own name? "Do you know who I am?" and Davos answers. It's like they're a two-headed freak. Bleh... I could keep ranting, but no point. Stannis character assassination: complete. Well done, D&D.
Yep, first they made Mance basicly give 100% peace terms to Jon. Now Jon has some reason to not trust Mance of course, but they didn't even bring up that the wildlings would not be willing to follow the laws of the 7 kingdoms. They made the wildlings switch from bloody raiders, rapers and killers with an army to be feared to an army that just wants peace and to get south of the wall in one episode, and then had Stannis butcher the "peaceful" wildlings, and Mance doesn't even try to fight.
I thought the Dany scenes were a great adaptation, and locking up the dragons, Dany actually showed some real emotions that were lacking in her dismissal of Jorah. The Bran scenes were rather cheesy. Fireball throwing Children of the Forest? Instead of wights we have super fast skeletons?
I'm not even that disappointed about no Lady Stoneheart, as long as she shows up in later seasons, though I did think it would have been a great ending scene.
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Whelp, that's that. Will be another year before tWoW is out so time to wipe my brain of everything GoT until season 5.
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EPT
