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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 13 2014 19:46 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 19:29 Conti wrote:
While spoilers in the other thread annoy me as much as the next guy, I'm really not sure there was any need for them for people to figure out who'd fight in the trial. There's just too many hints that were thrown around to figure it out:
* The trailer showing Oberyn and the Mountain fighting.
* Oberyn saying how much he hates the Mountain.
* The Mountain having been recast, thus implying that he'll making an appearance.
* The title of the episode being a blatantly obvious reference to the two.
And once the suggestion is made that it's the two fighting, it just makes perfect sense, since everything quite obviously has been set up for just that. I think this is more of a case of the show's creators spoiling themselves with far too many hints thrown out here and there. I agree to an extent, but I'm reluctant to completely agree, simply because Oberyn has yet to be named as The Red Viper. At least, I believe so. Correct me if I'm wrong. The rest is enough to put two and two together, but the Viper could be anybody really. It could mean the Mountain was poisoned without even fighting, or something. But, yeah, the trailers gave/give too much away.
I agree, I can't recall Oberyn ever having been called the red viper on the show to this point.
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On May 13 2014 21:37 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 21:28 Redox wrote:On May 13 2014 21:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On May 13 2014 21:18 Redox wrote:On May 13 2014 20:19 Bowzar wrote:
Im not sure how people will react to Tyrion strangling Shae. In the book she was clearly trying to humiliate Tyrion with all the bullshit and the fake tears but it felt like in the show that she was being threatened by Tywin. I thought it was total bs that he killed her in the book. She was just a whore. Why would she stay true to her former customer, especially when pressured by the queen? There is no way Tyrion could have ever expected something different from her. Varys also tells him so "you knew what she was". Tyrion basically killed her because of some delusions he had because she had been good at her job. But I also learned by now that most book readers seem to think killing her was somehow justfied. I just can not agree. Shae's end is largely inconsequential given the more serious act of Tyrion killing Tywin. Yeah but that one is fully justified imo. How is it justified? He knowingly threw the realm into chaos for what? Because his father tormented him? The whole vanguard thing from season 1, I'm not convinced the intended was to have Tyrion sacrificed.
The horrible thing he did there was murdering his father. If that is a problem for the realm or not is a problem that ranks much lower and nothing that you would even consider at that point.
His own father betrayed him and denied him a fair trial, leading to a death sentence. I think that alone justifies it not even counting all the other stuff like Tysha etc.
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The real spoiler for the red viper vs the mountain would be telling everyone that the mountain wins.
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On May 13 2014 21:47 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 19:46 Spaylz wrote:On May 13 2014 19:29 Conti wrote:
While spoilers in the other thread annoy me as much as the next guy, I'm really not sure there was any need for them for people to figure out who'd fight in the trial. There's just too many hints that were thrown around to figure it out:
* The trailer showing Oberyn and the Mountain fighting.
* Oberyn saying how much he hates the Mountain.
* The Mountain having been recast, thus implying that he'll making an appearance.
* The title of the episode being a blatantly obvious reference to the two.
And once the suggestion is made that it's the two fighting, it just makes perfect sense, since everything quite obviously has been set up for just that. I think this is more of a case of the show's creators spoiling themselves with far too many hints thrown out here and there. I agree to an extent, but I'm reluctant to completely agree, simply because Oberyn has yet to be named as The Red Viper. At least, I believe so. Correct me if I'm wrong. The rest is enough to put two and two together, but the Viper could be anybody really. It could mean the Mountain was poisoned without even fighting, or something. But, yeah, the trailers gave/give too much away. I agree, I can't recall Oberyn ever having been called the red viper on the show to this point.
guys, the preview shows Oberyn fighting the mountain.. I mean...
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Zurich15366 Posts
On May 13 2014 22:21 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 21:47 karazax wrote:On May 13 2014 19:46 Spaylz wrote:On May 13 2014 19:29 Conti wrote:
While spoilers in the other thread annoy me as much as the next guy, I'm really not sure there was any need for them for people to figure out who'd fight in the trial. There's just too many hints that were thrown around to figure it out:
* The trailer showing Oberyn and the Mountain fighting.
* Oberyn saying how much he hates the Mountain.
* The Mountain having been recast, thus implying that he'll making an appearance.
* The title of the episode being a blatantly obvious reference to the two.
And once the suggestion is made that it's the two fighting, it just makes perfect sense, since everything quite obviously has been set up for just that. I think this is more of a case of the show's creators spoiling themselves with far too many hints thrown out here and there. I agree to an extent, but I'm reluctant to completely agree, simply because Oberyn has yet to be named as The Red Viper. At least, I believe so. Correct me if I'm wrong. The rest is enough to put two and two together, but the Viper could be anybody really. It could mean the Mountain was poisoned without even fighting, or something. But, yeah, the trailers gave/give too much away. I agree, I can't recall Oberyn ever having been called the red viper on the show to this point. guys, the preview shows Oberyn fighting the mountain.. I mean...
The shot is like 0.5 seconds, and you can't see any faces or any features. No one has ever seen the new mountain actor either.
I am not saying it is impossible to deduct what's going to happen - HBO really made it easy this time. But it's not like you know what's going on just by watching the trailer once or even a couple of times.
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On May 13 2014 21:37 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 21:28 Redox wrote:On May 13 2014 21:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On May 13 2014 21:18 Redox wrote:On May 13 2014 20:19 Bowzar wrote:
Im not sure how people will react to Tyrion strangling Shae. In the book she was clearly trying to humiliate Tyrion with all the bullshit and the fake tears but it felt like in the show that she was being threatened by Tywin. I thought it was total bs that he killed her in the book. She was just a whore. Why would she stay true to her former customer, especially when pressured by the queen? There is no way Tyrion could have ever expected something different from her. Varys also tells him so "you knew what she was". Tyrion basically killed her because of some delusions he had because she had been good at her job. But I also learned by now that most book readers seem to think killing her was somehow justfied. I just can not agree. Shae's end is largely inconsequential given the more serious act of Tyrion killing Tywin. Yeah but that one is fully justified imo. How is it justified? He knowingly threw the realm into chaos for what? Because his father tormented him? The whole vanguard thing from season 1, I'm not convinced the intended was to have Tyrion sacrificed.
Tywin made Jaime lie about his wife being a whore, then had her raped by the entire garrison, and made Tyrion go last, when in reality she wasn't a whore and really did love him for him, the only person other than Jaimie in his life who ever did. Then Tyrion catches him with Shae wearing his Hand of the King necklace, after all his anti-whore rhetoric for the entire series, followed by Tywin provoking Tyrion over and over again while Tyrion has a crossbow aimed at him and Tyrion already facing a death sentence... If you believe murder is ever justified when not in self defense then Tywin is a good arguement.
As for Shae, if she had been forced to testify under threats maybe it would be different, but in exchange for her testimony Cersei Lannister offered her a manse in King's Landing and a knight to wed, so she basicly she was chose to kill him for money, then ended up in his father's bed. And she didn't exactly have a typical whore relationship with Tyrion. She was his paid mistress, not sleeping with a bunch of other people when she wasn't sleeping with him. Against his better judgement he fell for her, in part because of her lies, and even if he knew she loved the gold more than him, that doesn't mean he expected her to betray him to his death for gold. Considering nobody but Varys knew about Shae and Tyrion, it is likely she volunteered to testify for her reward, because if she was coerced by force they wouldn't reward her and she wouldn't be in Tywin's bed.
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I guess I just have a different moral compass than the rest of you.
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i have a feeling that fiwifaki is a book reader
sucks that people need to feel "smart"
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I dislike Kwark posting in that thread. It's one thing to correct people when they have their history wrong, it's another to argue points that he KNOWS are wrong for fun >_>
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United States44242 Posts
On May 13 2014 23:30 KOFgokuon wrote:
I dislike Kwark posting in that thread. It's one thing to correct people when they have their history wrong, it's another to argue points that he KNOWS are wrong for fun >_>
I know what happens but I don't feel I'm spoiling anything with my posts there, nor arguing anything that is wrong. When someone says something that makes no sense in terms of the show we've seen so far I call it out based upon the show. Tyrion has named Jaime his champion before, Jaime believes Tyrion innocent and Tywin, who is control of everything there, is established as needing Jaime to live. Saying Jaime is a bad pick as a champion is flat out wrong within the show story, Jaime is the perfect pick, if Jaime is champion he'll be fighting Ser Pounce. My post was entirely correct and entirely within the show story.
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On May 13 2014 23:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 23:30 KOFgokuon wrote:
I dislike Kwark posting in that thread. It's one thing to correct people when they have their history wrong, it's another to argue points that he KNOWS are wrong for fun >_> I know what happens but I don't feel I'm spoiling anything with my posts there, nor arguing anything that is wrong. When someone says something that makes no sense in terms of the show we've seen so far I call it out based upon the show. Tyrion has named Jaime his champion before, Jaime believes Tyrion innocent and Tywin, who is control of everything there, is established as needing Jaime to live. Saying Jaime is a bad pick as a champion is flat out wrong within the show story, Jaime is the perfect pick, if Jaime is champion he'll be fighting Ser Pounce. My post was entirely correct and entirely within the show story.
Ok, so you think you're clever, but the problem is people in that thread now (mainly urboss) are looking at people's post history and seeing whether or not they post in both threads. You're going to get a lot of people either a) asking what the hell you are doing or b) over-analyzing your posts trying to figure out if there is a book spoiler there.
I just don't see what it adds to their experience for you to play devil's advocate and put up false trails.
And you are assuming that Tyrion is willing to gamble with Jaime's life like that, because if it does end up being a real combat, he doesn't stand a chance against pretty much anyone Cersei would put into the ring. It would certainly teach Tywin a lesson, but at what cost? The life of the only person who ever gave a shit about Tyrion? I don't think he would be able to live with that.
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United States44242 Posts
I'm not playing devil's advocate or intentionally trying to misdirect people, as an intelligent human being I'm actually able to think about whether or not something makes sense within the show narrative. The post I responded to said that Tyrion wouldn't pick Jaime following an episode which establishes that Tywin needs Jaime alive and that Tywin is running shit (Tommen abdicated all control over the affair to him), that post is wrong whether or not Jaime is picked and you don't need to know Oberyn is the one picked to know that Jaime is still a solid choice.
I didn't say I thought it would be Jaime, or that I thought it would be Oberyn, I didn't speculate either way because I can't because I already know. But if someone says Jaime is a bad choice I can identify the reasons why that is wrong within the show narrative. That's not spoilers, that's not speculation, it's not devil's advocate, it's arguing about the nature of characters within the show as the show has shown them to us.
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And why exactly are you doing this ?
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Argueing anything when you know the answer seems rather pointless, and tempts other people who already know the answer or take 3 seconds to google it, to further post their "speculation". I think the other thread is better off in general when they limit the speculation topics, when the answer to those topics is so easy to find even for people who haven't read the books.
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Jaime being one-handed almost automatically disqualifies him. In terms of characters, it does not make sense for Tyrion to choose Jaime now, especially with the bond we've seen between the two. When Cersei names The Mountain, Tyrion would literally never name Jaime. Not a chance.
The situation in the Vale was different. Jaime had both his hands and was in his prime. It's unlikely a knight of the Vale could match him, much less Ser Vardis. To argue that Tyrion might choose Jaime, or that it makes perfect sense for him to do so, is sort of non-sense.
I feel like it's fine to discuss past events of the show, or to discuss the personality and traits of characters... But to discuss future events and major ones is a different deal. It's very, very hard to be unbiased because you know what happened.
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United States44242 Posts
On May 14 2014 00:18 Monsen wrote:
And why exactly are you doing this ?
![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)
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United States44242 Posts
On May 14 2014 00:24 Spaylz wrote:
Jaime being one-handed almost automatically disqualifies him. In terms of characters, it does not make sense for Tyrion to choose Jaime now, especially with the bond we've seen between the two. When Cersei names The Mountain, Tyrion would literally never name Jaime. Not a chance.
The situation in the Vale was different. Jaime had both his hands and was in his prime. It's unlikely a knight of the Vale could match him, much less Ser Vardis. To argue that Tyrion might choose Jaime, or that it makes perfect sense for him to do so, is sort of non-sense.
You're assuming that The Mountain being chosen is certain, in the show it is far from certain. We've not seen him in a while, we don't know that Cersei necessarily does the choosing (Lysa chose in Tyrion's last trial, not Catelyn). If Tyrions plea for trial by combat is not a suicide attempt then there is only one obvious champion that comes to mind and everyone, including Tywin, knows that that is Jaime. Now we, as book readers, know Oberyn volunteers but at this point in the show Tyrion and Oberyn have met just the once whereas Jaime has been Tyrion's friend and ally throughout and has already bargained with Tywin for his life. Oberyn comes out of the blue as a surprise ally to Tyrion when we expect Jaime, Jaime is the default, Jaime is the one Tyrion named last time. It's shocking precisely because it's not Jaime, we're book readers so we know how it turns out but that doesn't mean that Oberyn was likely.
At this point the only reasonable assumptions for a champion for Tyrion are Jaime and Bronn. Tywin has Bronn out of the way, you really think he names The Mountain (Lysa precedent says the reigning lord gets to name and even without the precedent he speaks as the king, if he wants to name then he gets to name) before making sure it's not Jaime he'll be fighting? No way.
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Trial by combat doesn't have to end with the death of one of the fighters as far as i know.
So i don't see how Jaime would be a good choice either way.
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Tywin already disowned Jaime (this never changed in the books) once, and so you can't assume he would just give up and put a patsy out there to spare Jaime's life. Just as likely he would tell Jaime that if he wants to die he is welcome to it, and Tyrion can follow him, or he can accept the deal they made and even if Tyrion's champion looses he will send him to the Wall. If there was an obvious candidate going in, it was Bronn to me, I don't recall anything about Tywin getting him out of the way on the show to this point.
Regardless we know the answer, so what is the point of debating other possiblities?
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Jaime straight up tells Tyrion he can't fight anymore, why would you argue think he'd pick Jaime as champion? I think Tyrion is smart enough to realize that you don't just become a master swordsmen with your offhand in a few weeks.
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EPT
