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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
On May 08 2014 00:56 Lylat wrote: I can't remember because I read the books a long time ago but is Jorah still with Daenarys at this point of the story in the books ? And where is the big dude with scars on his belly ?! Jorah is already banishes and strong belwas was cut TT | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On May 08 2014 01:01 GumBa wrote: Jorah is already banishes and strong belwas was cut TT I get why they aren't including Strong Belwas, but he was such a cool character in the books, and would have made the Champion of Mereen sequence in the show much more interesting than it ended up being with Daario. The whole "I let them cut me once" thing that Belwas does is badass. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
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SoulTakerz
Canada353 Posts
Catelyn: Indirectly started the whole war when she arrested Tyrion. Honestly, pissing off the Lannisters when Ned was still in the capitol was NOT a good idea. Cersei: Not even half as smart as she thinks she is. Ruined everything after Tywin died. Dany: Probably the luckiest yet stupidest character in the whole book. She was given Dragons, an Unsullied army, and ships. She should have sail to Westeros like Barristan suggested, but nope, she stayed and pissed off the entire continent instead. You guys might think I'm nuts, but I think Sansa will be one of the most powerful woman in Westeros because she can learn from a guy like littlefinger. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 08 2014 18:21 SoulTakerz wrote: I don't know if you guys notice, but most of the women in these books are really really stupid. Catelyn: Indirectly started the whole war when she arrested Tyrion. Honestly, pissing off the Lannisters when Ned was still in the capitol was NOT a good idea. Cersei: Not even half as smart as she thinks she is. Ruined everything after Tywin died. Dany: Probably the luckiest yet stupidest character in the whole book. She was given Dragons, an Unsullied army, and ships. She should have sail to Westeros like Barristan suggested, but nope, she stayed and pissed off the entire continent instead. You guys might think I'm nuts, but I think Sansa will be one of the most powerful woman in Westeros because she can learn from a guy like littlefinger. This is not nearly the most. You forgot many others including people like Queen of Thorns or mother to Jayne Westerling or Mizzi Mar Dur. Or Red Lady. Or Arya. And then I don't agree with your statements about Catelyn. At the time of her actions Robert was still alive and could be trusted to take their side, and Littlefinger told her Tyrion was the owner of the dagger. Dany is not lucky, she just used well the gifts of her birth. Even Varys and Ilyrio didn't expect her to accomplish anything. Dany was as "lucky" as Alexander the Great or other great people in history. None of them would accomplish much without some degree of luck. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
Cersei isn't without cunning, but she is WAY too proud. She simply believes everything she does is outstanding, and it leads her to make very moronic decisions without ever questioning herself. Her chapters are full of "heh, I did that way better than any man I know, I am perfection incarnate" moments of self-reflection. Sansa isn't stupid at the beginning, but she is quite naive. I too believe she will become very powerful in the future, and will impose herself as a major player of the game. Catelyn... She's not stupid either, but she let herself be driven by her emotions and her wish to protect her children, which did lead her to make stupid decisions. I mean, despite her wrong moves, she did give decent advice to Robb from time to time. What I remember the most was Robb dismissing Grey Wind when Catelyn put so much trust into the direwolf. I feel like that was crucial. There's also Arianne, who isn't the brightest I think. She knows how to use her body, but her moves aren't that smart, and she hasn't really shown anything promising. The idea of crowning Myrcella had some merit, but it was bound to fail. Women are portrayed the way women were in a medieval society: as the weaker sex. It doesn't make them stupid, if anything, it requires them to be smarter in order to overcome the premise that men should be in charge. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 08 2014 23:35 ComaDose wrote: and there at least as many examples of men doing similar stupid things like rob getting his whole army / family killed for sex, theon fucking everything up with the worst plan ever and ned telling the enemy he knew their secret to give them time to get away. There is also Davos advising Stannis to not take Melissandre with them to the Battle of Blackwater (although later books show her as half illusionist so she probably would not have made a difference). | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On May 09 2014 00:06 Conti wrote: Don't forget everything Theon ever did since the war started. Difference is Theon paid. Dearly. So did Rob, but not Dany. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On May 09 2014 00:23 Redox wrote: Difference is Theon paid. Dearly. So did Rob, but not Dany. ..not yet. I believe/think that Dany won't get a very happy ending. | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
On May 08 2014 18:47 Spaylz wrote: Sansa isn't stupid at the beginning, but she is quite naive. I too believe she will become very powerful in the future, and will impose herself as a major player of the game. I genuinely disagree with this. I actually don't think she will, and I suspect that she's going to end up fading away into the background. I believe that she'll find a life of some happiness somewhere, but she will end up being anonymous or with someone you do not expect. GRRM is setting it up like she's going to learn from Littlefinger, but when has something he's implied like that (both Littlefinger and GRRM) ever turn out to be the case? I also strongly suspect that Sansa's storyline is going to be accurately described overall by the metaphorical story told in the Bear and the Maiden Fair. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
On May 09 2014 00:57 BallinWitStalin wrote: I genuinely disagree with this. I actually don't think she will, and I suspect that she's going to end up fading away into the background. I believe that she'll find a life of some happiness somewhere, but she will end up being anonymous or with someone you do not expect. GRRM is setting it up like she's going to learn from Littlefinger, but when has something he's implied like that (both Littlefinger and GRRM) ever turn out to be the case? I also strongly suspect that Sansa's storyline is going to be accurately described overall by the metaphorical story told in the Bear and the Maiden Fair. maybe i'm missing part of the metaphore but are you suggesting shes going to have stockholm syndrome with a rapist | ||
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Gladness
United States59 Posts
On May 08 2014 18:21 SoulTakerz wrote: I don't know if you guys notice, but most of the women in these books are really really stupid. Catelyn: Indirectly started the whole war when she arrested Tyrion. Honestly, pissing off the Lannisters when Ned was still in the capitol was NOT a good idea. Cersei: Not even half as smart as she thinks she is. Ruined everything after Tywin died. Dany: Probably the luckiest yet stupidest character in the whole book. She was given Dragons, an Unsullied army, and ships. She should have sail to Westeros like Barristan suggested, but nope, she stayed and pissed off the entire continent instead. You guys might think I'm nuts, but I think Sansa will be one of the most powerful woman in Westeros because she can learn from a guy like littlefinger. If you want to blame the war on Cat, I would invoke her convincing Ned to accept the job of Hand of the King. The Lannisters believed he would refuse, he was going to refuse, but Cat changed his mind. Both causes go back to her being manipulated by Littlefinger, so I find it hard to truly blame her. To me, Cat's mortal sin is to convince Robb that Bolton should be given command of his second army. Robb's first pick is his most loyal commander. Cat's first pick is the guy who's been feuding with the Starks for centuries. Cersei never seemed incompetent to me, just petty. She's quite a scary presence in both books 1 and 2 -- dangerous and short-sighted, but those are character flaws more than being "really really stupid". I thought she was becoming an alcoholic in book 4, which causes the her to drift toward making more and more terrible choices. I think that's different than intrinsic stupidity, but if you blame her insanity or just the corruption of power then you might conclude otherwise. Dany wasn't given the Unsullied, she took them. That is extremely clear in the books. The army she was given was Khal Drogo's, which she lost by being too merciful. She learned her lesson from that, and swung towards brutality in Astapor, using what she learned in Qarth about mankind's lust for dragons. She stayed in Meereen because of what she learned from conquering Yunkai and Astapor. She might be ignorant, she might be insane, she might be wrong, but she is learning from her mistakes and changing her behavior. That's pretty much the opposite of stupid. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On May 09 2014 01:05 Gladness wrote: If you want to blame the war on Cat, I would invoke her convincing Ned to accept the job of Hand of the King. The Lannisters believed he would refuse, he was going to refuse, but Cat changed his mind. Both causes go back to her being manipulated by Littlefinger, so I find it hard to truly blame her. To me, Cat's mortal sin is to convince Robb that Bolton should be given command of his second army. Robb's first pick is his most loyal commander. Cat's first pick is the guy who's been feuding with the Starks for centuries. Cersei never seemed incompetent to me, just petty. She's quite a scary presence in both books 1 and 2 -- dangerous and short-sighted, but those are character flaws more than being "really really stupid". I thought she was becoming an alcoholic in book 4, which causes the her to drift toward making more and more terrible choices. I think that's different than intrinsic stupidity, but if you blame her insanity or just the corruption of power then you might conclude otherwise. Dany wasn't given the Unsullied, she took them. That is extremely clear in the books. The army she was given was Khal Drogo's, which she lost by being too merciful. She learned her lesson from that, and swung towards brutality in Astapor, using what she learned in Qarth about mankind's lust for dragons. She stayed in Meereen because of what she learned from conquering Yunkai and Astapor. She might be ignorant, she might be insane, she might be wrong, but she is learning from her mistakes and changing her behavior. That's pretty much the opposite of stupid. To be fair, Bolton was the best choice for second-in-command if you go purely by ability, but they should have considered his ambition and ruthlessness when raising him to such a position. From what I remember, it almost never crosses their minds that the Boltons might betray them. As for Cersei, I never blamed her incompetence on alcohol...her developing a drinking problem was more a character flaw than the reason for her ineptitude in my opinion. She has a certain level of cunning, but draws a lot of parallels to Robert in that plotting to rule (winning) is not the same as ruling. She gets tied up in her own personal little vendettas and grabs for power instead of actually ruling the kingdom she worked so hard to get power over. I probably can't count on two hands the number of times in the books I'd roll my eyes at something she says or does and say "Is that really what you should be focusing your attention on?" Like sending assassins to the wall for Jon Snow, her crusade against Tyrion, putting loyal idiots on her council instead of able pragmatists. Hell she spends half of her time at least thinking about Margaery and how to reveal her for something she probably isn't instead of actually ruling. These idle activities were fine, if unproductive, while Tywin was alive and actually taking care of business, but now that he's not and Varys killed the only sensible person left, it's only a matter of time before King's Landing falls apart, and it will be largely on her. I can't remember who said it, and it's possibly a very popular prediction, but I like the theory that as she descends further into alcoholism/madness, Jaime is forced to kill her the same way he was forced to kill Aerys to save the city from wildfire. | ||
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
Concerning Sansa I think she's a prime candidate for "oops, I killed a main character again". She's likeable and plays no major role in the plot (so far). | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
Cersei thinks she is the best thing since the Targs even though she is fairly mediocre with regards to cunning and playing the game. Not to mention she is paranoid/batshit crazy and a pretty horrible person as a whole. Sansa was just naive, not necessarily overly emotional or stupid. In fact, she learned pretty quickly to hide her emotions in the Lannister court and is now very good at it. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
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pokerface
507 Posts
On May 08 2014 00:56 Lylat wrote: I can't remember because I read the books a long time ago but is Jorah still with Daenarys at this point of the story in the books ? And where is the big dude with scars on his belly ?! RIP Strong Belwas.I really like that guy and I was looking forward to his scene when he eats the poisioned stuff.Btw since Belwas is cut,will Daario play everything for him instead? Not sure about your question about Jorah,it was long time ago. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On May 10 2014 01:44 GGTeMpLaR wrote: I don't think so. Catelyn straight up acted stupid and hypocritical on multiple occasions. It might have stemmed from her emotions but it still led her to make stupid/irrational decisions that were not in her or her families best benefit, even if she thought so at the time. I agree. Cat's an emotional, irrational person who only has power by virtue of marriage. She has no business holding actual authority, but she does, and things go bad as a result. Repeatedly. 'I have to protect my family!!!' is no excuse for starting a war, and then proceeding to lose control of two extremely valuable hostages. | ||
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