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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 05 2014 16:48 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 16:40 Steveling wrote:On May 05 2014 16:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 05 2014 15:12 Steveling wrote:
I like danny, she's one of very few characters that push for their ideals without paying the price for it so far, like poor Ned. Thing is, the only reason she HASN'T paid for her ideals yet is because she's fucking lucky. She hasn't gotten as far as she has on her brains, the only really intelligent thing she did was conning the Unsullied army into her pocket. She's surrounded by far more capable people than she who support her 100% because of what she represents not because of who she is, (except Jorah who is just pussy whipped, can't really blame him for that.) Dany has gotten all of the luck that the other characters that people actually like in the series didn't get. That I think is why so many resent her. It's just her character being like that, she's not a good fighter leader or cunning or smart, she's just fucking hot. And I like her because all characters in this series are all grey and if not grey, downright evil(like ramsay). Characters like brienne, sam, dany are so scarcely present in this world. Fixed that for you. Charisma she might have, but if she wasn't so awe strikingly beautiful according to Martin's description or just as importantly a TARGARYEN it wouldn't mean shit. Nothing that Dany has she earned, it's all been given to her. She's just lucky.
Well you wouldn't say that to her face would you? xD
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On May 05 2014 17:04 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 16:48 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 05 2014 16:40 Steveling wrote:On May 05 2014 16:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 05 2014 15:12 Steveling wrote:
I like danny, she's one of very few characters that push for their ideals without paying the price for it so far, like poor Ned. Thing is, the only reason she HASN'T paid for her ideals yet is because she's fucking lucky. She hasn't gotten as far as she has on her brains, the only really intelligent thing she did was conning the Unsullied army into her pocket. She's surrounded by far more capable people than she who support her 100% because of what she represents not because of who she is, (except Jorah who is just pussy whipped, can't really blame him for that.) Dany has gotten all of the luck that the other characters that people actually like in the series didn't get. That I think is why so many resent her. It's just her character being like that, she's not a good fighter leader or cunning or smart, she's just fucking hot. And I like her because all characters in this series are all grey and if not grey, downright evil(like ramsay). Characters like brienne, sam, dany are so scarcely present in this world. Fixed that for you. Charisma she might have, but if she wasn't so awe strikingly beautiful according to Martin's description or just as importantly a TARGARYEN it wouldn't mean shit. Nothing that Dany has she earned, it's all been given to her. She's just lucky. Not true. She was sold to be a wife to a Khal and it would have stayed like that if SHE didn't change her position there. Then it was SHE who managed to unlock the power that gave birth to dragons. Her brother had same power, but he could not do it. After that things do get lucky for her, but she still makes these decisions like cheating the Unsulied merchant and taking the city as the result, turning the Second Sons and the other company to her side and so on.
We don't know that. We don't know for a fact that all Targaryens have the ability to hatch dragons, or that they have special powers for that matter. It seems to be only certain Targaryens. GRRM himself has said the Targaryens are not immune to fire (though in the show Dany seems to be...), so it's definitely not the whole line that's special.
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On May 05 2014 17:09 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 17:04 -Archangel- wrote:On May 05 2014 16:48 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 05 2014 16:40 Steveling wrote:On May 05 2014 16:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 05 2014 15:12 Steveling wrote:
I like danny, she's one of very few characters that push for their ideals without paying the price for it so far, like poor Ned. Thing is, the only reason she HASN'T paid for her ideals yet is because she's fucking lucky. She hasn't gotten as far as she has on her brains, the only really intelligent thing she did was conning the Unsullied army into her pocket. She's surrounded by far more capable people than she who support her 100% because of what she represents not because of who she is, (except Jorah who is just pussy whipped, can't really blame him for that.) Dany has gotten all of the luck that the other characters that people actually like in the series didn't get. That I think is why so many resent her. It's just her character being like that, she's not a good fighter leader or cunning or smart, she's just fucking hot. And I like her because all characters in this series are all grey and if not grey, downright evil(like ramsay). Characters like brienne, sam, dany are so scarcely present in this world. Fixed that for you. Charisma she might have, but if she wasn't so awe strikingly beautiful according to Martin's description or just as importantly a TARGARYEN it wouldn't mean shit. Nothing that Dany has she earned, it's all been given to her. She's just lucky. Not true. She was sold to be a wife to a Khal and it would have stayed like that if SHE didn't change her position there. Then it was SHE who managed to unlock the power that gave birth to dragons. Her brother had same power, but he could not do it. After that things do get lucky for her, but she still makes these decisions like cheating the Unsulied merchant and taking the city as the result, turning the Second Sons and the other company to her side and so on. We don't know that. We don't know for a fact that all Targaryens have the ability to hatch dragons, or that they have special powers for that matter. It seems to be only certain Targaryens. GRRM himself has said the Targaryens are not immune to fire (though in the show Dany seems to be...), so it's definitely not the whole line that's special.
GRRM said she used blood magic to wake the dragons. She knew how to do it by intuition. That same spell was what gave her fire immunity.
Still, it was her decisions and her action which got her other things.
And if she is proclaimed as lucky and such, how would you call so many people in our own history that would conquer half the world? Great Khans, Roman conquerors and such. I am sure from the view of others their actions also seems lucky or unfair.
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BTW in case you guys didn't see this. It's a summary of the Dance of Dragons Civil War that is often referenced in the books.
http://imgur.com/a/im45I
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I'm wondering where the show is going to go with the hound. Arya doesn't have the strength to drive a sword through the hounds front(as evidenced in the show), and Arya doesn't strike me as the kind of person to simply stab the hound in the back. Pretty far cry from slowly dying of an infected wound.
Pod is pretty awesomely terrible at doing most life tasks. He's literally a maid masquerading as a squire.
Pretty shocking death on Karl's part though. Definitely did not expect sword from back of head out through mouth. Hodor also, I don't even know the proper term for that. Displaced the head from the body?
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Karls death was too cartoonish. Everything up to the sword through the head was fine
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Hmm, this has to be the first episode where every single scene was at least decent and enjoyable. This one definitely ranks very high on the ladder methinks!
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Enjoy Dany not doing anything for 2 years you unsullied fools in the other thread
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Zurich15366 Posts
On May 05 2014 23:06 KOFgokuon wrote:
Enjoy Dany not doing anything for 2 years you unsullied fools in the other thread
I fully expect the show to diverge further from the book story line from now on. They already showed that with the Bran / Wall story lines being changed significantly. And for Dany they basically have to change it or nobody is going to want to watch anymore.
For example, how about her taking a trip to Valyria? It's right around the corner after all.
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I thought it was reasonably entertaining, but a poor adaptation. The whole mutineer story line was the definition of filler material that had an end result of nothing happening. Likewise they kind of wasted Locke's character, when he could have been a longer term thorn in the side for Jon. It seems pretty likely that there will be no Coldhands this season, if ever.
I generally liked the Sansa/Littlefinger scenes, but I don't really get why they changed her to his neice. Littlefinger has no siblings that we know about, and if she is his neice that would naturally bring up talk of who her parents are, and why she is with Littlefinger instead of them? Why no one has heard of this sibling or his neice before? It also strips Sansa's experience of living as a commoner, to be treated like a bastard instead of a noble by the outside world. Lysa telling Sansa not to call her aunt doesn't make much sense if she is Littlefinger's niece, since if Littlefinger is her uncle, Lysa would be her aunt by marriage.
Cersei's attempted manipulations of the judges further distanced herself from her book character's style, and it's questionable how much she was really offering the judges that they weren't already lined up to get regardless of her consent. It seems she should have been talking to Mace instead of Margeary at the start, the Tywin discussion was generally fine (except for the whole "the mines are all empty now" thing), and the Oberyn discussion could have used a bit of attempted seduction which TVCersei has pretty much dropped as a tool.
The Lannister's mines being dry for 3 years is a fairly silly turn, much like Xaro's "wealthiest man in Qarth is in fact bankrupt" thing -- It would be virtually impossible to hide such a thing in a land where credit cards don't exist, and loans would result in actually getting the gold you borrowed, not just credit for that gold.
It seems fairly obvious that the change is there to whitewash Cersei still further. She's not going to tell the Iron Bank she won't pay up because she's recklessly arrogant on the topic... but because she'll have no choice. TVCersei is such a bland character in comparison.
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France7248 Posts
good episode, but the scene between Margaery & Cersei felt really wrong to me, it looks like they are old good friends now, wth?
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Yeah, I'm wondering why Cersei wants Margaery to marry Tommen now? What does she get out of it?
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Were the books trying to make Cersei pitiable at this point? I feel like all of her scenes were trying to make us like her for some silly reason
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I think the scenes were meant to show Cersei being cunning and trying to manipulate her foes.
She has a look at the end of her conversation with Margaery that definitely suggests if not shows her hatred for her son's soon-to-be wife.
I think the scenes just missed their purpose a little bit and weren't clear enough. It was a bit clumsy.
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think they missed the boat with cersei, she definitely doesn't seem like the crazy bitch that she is in the books
lysa however is fucking perfect
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The point of all of Cersei's scenes was that she was trying to manipulate the judges in Tyrion's trial, I just don't think they did a good job, and it certainly wasn't the style BookCersei would have employed.
BookCersei would never have even considered suggesting to marry Tommen to Margeary at that point, even if it was to manipulate someone else. It might have been workable if the conversation had been with Mace Tyrell instead of Margeary, but the scene starts with Cersei giving the icy glare and then transitions into I can't wait to marry you to my other son and Joffrey was a monster is just so dramatically different from the way BookCersei works. Equally problematic is that everything she "offered" to try to get the judges on her side was stuff the judges were already likely to get anyway. We know Olena and Margeary already had eyes on Tommen, and the Lannister's obviously still needed to seal their alliance with the Tyrells. She tries to seduce Oberyn in the books, but that's not a tool TVCersei really uses.
I think Atia of the Julii from HBO's Rome is closer to BookCersei. It's unfortunate that TVCersei isn't more like her.
If you haven't seen Rome, I recommend it. Here is the character description for Atia:
Niece of Caesar, Atia of the Julii is snobbish, willful, cunning, and sexually voracious. In a culture in which women lack formal power and men leave for years on military campaigns, the wives, daughters, and mothers have built powerful networks and alliances completely independent of the men's worlds. Atia is among the women who serve as the shadow rulers of Rome.
Portrayed as the anti-heroine and femme fatale of the series, Atia is greedy and ambitious, and will do virtually anything to get what she wants. Seduction, humiliation and violence (including murder) are all tools acceptable to her; Atia's occasional hypocrisy is overshadowed by her general acceptance of her own extremely corrupt and unethical nature.
Fiercely protective of her family and their social status, Atia's motives usually involve advancement or self-preservation for the Julii. Her manipulations often extend to her own relatives; feeling that she knows best, Atia will not let even her children thwart her plans.
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Atia is far more intelligent and cunning that Cersei.
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On May 05 2014 17:04 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 16:48 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 05 2014 16:40 Steveling wrote:On May 05 2014 16:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 05 2014 15:12 Steveling wrote:
I like danny, she's one of very few characters that push for their ideals without paying the price for it so far, like poor Ned. Thing is, the only reason she HASN'T paid for her ideals yet is because she's fucking lucky. She hasn't gotten as far as she has on her brains, the only really intelligent thing she did was conning the Unsullied army into her pocket. She's surrounded by far more capable people than she who support her 100% because of what she represents not because of who she is, (except Jorah who is just pussy whipped, can't really blame him for that.) Dany has gotten all of the luck that the other characters that people actually like in the series didn't get. That I think is why so many resent her. It's just her character being like that, she's not a good fighter leader or cunning or smart, she's just fucking hot. And I like her because all characters in this series are all grey and if not grey, downright evil(like ramsay). Characters like brienne, sam, dany are so scarcely present in this world. Fixed that for you. Charisma she might have, but if she wasn't so awe strikingly beautiful according to Martin's description or just as importantly a TARGARYEN it wouldn't mean shit. Nothing that Dany has she earned, it's all been given to her. She's just lucky. if SHE didn't change her position there.
Literally.
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On May 06 2014 01:12 farvacola wrote:
Atia is far more intelligent and cunning that Cersei.
Perhaps, but she is still much closer to BookCersei, than TVCersei is just based on the way she conducts herself and the manner she gets what she wants. They add all this extra whore sex scenes to up the sex quota, but cast an actor who won't do nude sex scenes for a role that could have warranted more of them. Seduction is one of BookCersei's main tools, and it is completely missing from her TV version. They also cut her role in ordering the murder of all of Robert's bastards and gave it to Joffrey and have generally made her into a bland character who was stuck with an evil kid, rather than an evil bitch who had an evil kid in large part because of her own influence.
TV viewers shouldn't be asking themselves who the villain is that replaces Joffrey because Cersei should have been right up there with him thru this point of the story in her own ways.
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Zurich15366 Posts
And Atia is about as dumb as Cersei too. Completely lacks understanding how people other than herself tick. Shown by her ignorance in situations like
- Reconciling with Cevilla by sending her slave cock
- Thinking her son actually seduced Cesar
- Completely botch manipulating a simple guy like Marcus by failing to understand him
- Actually believes she gets to marry him later
- Fails to understand her daughter hates her to death and why
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EPT
