|
SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 02 2013 02:18 moopie wrote:
The problem with dany isn't just that her story is long and boring, its that she as a character is a spoiled brat. she's a female viserys, but written in a way that tries to elicit sympathy for her. the fact that her story goes fucking nowhere just compounds that.
They are quite different. Viserys sold her to get what he wanted, she would never sell her brother nor anyone for that matter because she was sold herself.
She settled into being a Khaleesi and lost everything she had for a second time. I think she sees her own responsibility in her loss and that resulted in her outward directed anger and perceived bratishnes. She wants to beat the world into a form she desires but because it was cruel and hard and unfair to her and because she hates that about the world. her demanding to be queen is partially to better achieve that. Viserys onyl wanted it because it was his by right and for his personal gain.
I think those two are very different in certain aspects.
|
People are definitely going to end up frustrated with Dany as they are all theorizing about how she could invade very soon but whatever they end up having her do on the show it wont be invading Westeros. Her story is really detached from everything else and she spends most of her time ranting about how she deserves the iron throne and getting hot and bothered over Daario.
I'm not convinced she isn't showing a touch of Targ madness either. At the very least she is becoming prophecy obsessed.
|
On May 02 2013 02:48 CobaltBlu wrote:
People are definitely going to end up frustrated with Dany as they are all theorizing about how she could invade very soon but whatever they end up having her do on the show it wont be invading Westeros. Her story is really detached from everything else and she spends most of her time ranting about how she deserves the iron throne and getting hot and bothered over Daario.
I'm not convinced she isn't showing a touch of Targ madness either. At the very least she is becoming prophecy obsessed.
Do most people really want her to invade though? I myself always saw her as a potential danger for Westeros.
And she was always one of my most disliked charactrs. Puzzling to me when I read that others were loving her.
Actually I dont really like the whole book parts that deal with the eastern continent. Martin seems to have way more trouble with describing the eastern countries and societies in a realistic way than Westeros.
|
On May 02 2013 02:41 Doppelganger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:18 moopie wrote:
The problem with dany isn't just that her story is long and boring, its that she as a character is a spoiled brat. she's a female viserys, but written in a way that tries to elicit sympathy for her. the fact that her story goes fucking nowhere just compounds that. They are quite different. Viserys sold her to get what he wanted, she would never sell her brother nor anyone for that matter because she was sold herself. She settled into being a Khaleesi and lost everything she had for a second time. I think she sees her own responsibility in her loss and that resulted in her outward directed anger and perceived bratishnes. She wants to beat the world into a form she desires but because it was cruel and hard and unfair to her and because she hates that about the world. her demanding to be queen is partially to better achieve that. Viserys onyl wanted it because it was his by right and for his personal gain. I think those two are very different in certain aspects.
she wants to invade and conquer a land she hasn't been to since she was an infant, killing anyone that gets in her way. she fucked up slaver's bay beyond recognition leading to the deaths of tens of thousands and doesn't even admit that she fucked up.
she goes out to conquer and slaughter, but then when it all goes to shit its "oh, she's just a 16 year old girl, poor thing". she may have had good intentions, but she has proven herself to be a whiny, lying, spoiled, incompetent little bitch who goes around demanding shit from everyone she meets, and then threatening them with fire and blood when they tell her to fuck off. her character actually showed maturity and growth at the end of AGoT and then dwindled down to shit.
she couldn't even rule over 1 city, and all she takes away from her experience in slaver's bay is that she still somehow thinks she would make a good ruler for all of westeros. she wants the iron throne because she thinks she deserves it, no different than viserys.
"i am the mother of dragons / blood of the dragon / blood of old valeriya /etc etc ... give me stuff!". every chapter with her is just more the same old self-entitled attitude because of her heritage (that she didn't even experience firsthand).
|
Russian Federation59 Posts
Was there ever any king who did not feel self-entitled and demanding?
They are all the same and Dany is no worse in this regard than others who want the throne.
|
On May 02 2013 02:53 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:48 CobaltBlu wrote:
People are definitely going to end up frustrated with Dany as they are all theorizing about how she could invade very soon but whatever they end up having her do on the show it wont be invading Westeros. Her story is really detached from everything else and she spends most of her time ranting about how she deserves the iron throne and getting hot and bothered over Daario.
I'm not convinced she isn't showing a touch of Targ madness either. At the very least she is becoming prophecy obsessed. Do most people really want her to invade though? I myself always saw her as a potential danger for Westeros. And she was always one of my most disliked charactrs. Puzzling to me when I read that others were loving her. Actually I dont really like the whole book parts that deal with the eastern continent. Martin seems to have way more trouble with describing the eastern countries and societies in a realistic way than Westeros.
I don't but show watchers sure seem excited about it. And even if you don't want her to it is still frustrating how much time she takes up screwing up. She's hot headed and doesn't take counsel or advice when she doesn't want to and generally hasn't shown good leadership skills while ruling.
|
On May 02 2013 03:24 CobaltBlu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:53 Redox wrote:On May 02 2013 02:48 CobaltBlu wrote:
People are definitely going to end up frustrated with Dany as they are all theorizing about how she could invade very soon but whatever they end up having her do on the show it wont be invading Westeros. Her story is really detached from everything else and she spends most of her time ranting about how she deserves the iron throne and getting hot and bothered over Daario.
I'm not convinced she isn't showing a touch of Targ madness either. At the very least she is becoming prophecy obsessed. Do most people really want her to invade though? I myself always saw her as a potential danger for Westeros. And she was always one of my most disliked charactrs. Puzzling to me when I read that others were loving her. Actually I dont really like the whole book parts that deal with the eastern continent. Martin seems to have way more trouble with describing the eastern countries and societies in a realistic way than Westeros. I don't but show watchers sure seem excited about it. And even if you don't want her to it is still frustrating how much time she takes up screwing up. She's hot headed and doesn't take counsel or advice when she doesn't want to and generally hasn't shown good leadership skills while ruling.
I just realized, people probably want her to invade so that the different storylines get brought together and a purpose is given to her existence.
|
On May 02 2013 03:15 ecstazy wrote:
Was there ever any king who did not feel self-entitled and demanding?
They are all the same and Dany is no worse in this regard than others who want the throne.
Stannis. He doesn't want the throne particularly, he's just bound by his duty and honor to take it, as the rightful king. I've never viewed him as someone who's taking it for selfish reasons. Well, there's of course the draw of kingship, but that's not his driving force by any means.
|
Stannis also didn't tell his soldiers to kill every person over 12 years old wearing a particular item of clothing.
edit: I suppose it doesn't really matter that much that she told the unsullied to murder them all, since thanks to her all of Astapor is dying of war, famine and the bloody flux anyway. I suppose Dany murdering everyone wearing tokars in cold blood was a kindness compared to the poor bastards that she left behind.
|
Russian Federation59 Posts
Stannis is just as self-entitled and demanding as Dany. He assasinated his brother and wastefully assaulted the King's landing while being fully aware of the casualties his army would sustain. He wants that throne and his excuse for why he should have it is exactly the same as Dany's. He is as much a rightful king as Daenerys is a rightful queen. Just depends on whether you appreciate Aegon's conquest or Robert's conquest more.
As to Astapor? When she came there it was a disgusting place. Now that she left, it's still a disgusting place, but now she has an army. She'll take that trade any day. No one ever said she was a saint (ok some say it, but they are wrong).
|
Stannis is rightful king according to Stannis. He claims the throne because his brother had it. Well, before his brother had it, Dany's father had it, she is the rightful heir up to Aegon.
In the end it always comes to, that the throne belongs to whoever can keep it. It's the right of strength that gives a man or woman the throne. Stannis can tell he is the rightful king until the Long Winter comes, doesn't make it so.
|
To be perfectly honest, I actually believe GRRM never intended for Daenerys to be an important character.
He just fancied a wank one day, invented her and then kept her and gradually made her more meaningful.
I'm saying this because he speaks rather... fondly of her in interviews.
|
On May 02 2013 03:15 ecstazy wrote:
Was there ever any king who did not feel self-entitled and demanding?
They are all the same and Dany is no worse in this regard than others who want the throne.
Jon Snow.
|
Russian Federation59 Posts
On May 02 2013 05:31 Synocist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 03:15 ecstazy wrote:
Was there ever any king who did not feel self-entitled and demanding?
They are all the same and Dany is no worse in this regard than others who want the throne. Jon Snow.
If he has royal blood, he doesn't know about it. Knowing you are a king is the key part of having self-entitlement. Besides, in the current system, it wouldn't make a difference if he found out. He is in the night's watch. All his claims to the throne are nullified by this unless someone changes the rules.
|
On May 02 2013 07:05 ecstazy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 05:31 Synocist wrote:On May 02 2013 03:15 ecstazy wrote:
Was there ever any king who did not feel self-entitled and demanding?
They are all the same and Dany is no worse in this regard than others who want the throne. Jon Snow. If he has royal blood, he doesn't know about it. Knowing you are a king is the key part of having self-entitlement. Besides, in the current system, it wouldn't make a difference if he found out. He is in the night's watch. All his claims to the throne are nullified by this unless someone changes the rules.
You are a man of the Night's Watch until your death...
|
On May 02 2013 02:56 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:41 Doppelganger wrote:On May 02 2013 02:18 moopie wrote:
The problem with dany isn't just that her story is long and boring, its that she as a character is a spoiled brat. she's a female viserys, but written in a way that tries to elicit sympathy for her. the fact that her story goes fucking nowhere just compounds that. They are quite different. Viserys sold her to get what he wanted, she would never sell her brother nor anyone for that matter because she was sold herself. She settled into being a Khaleesi and lost everything she had for a second time. I think she sees her own responsibility in her loss and that resulted in her outward directed anger and perceived bratishnes. She wants to beat the world into a form she desires but because it was cruel and hard and unfair to her and because she hates that about the world. her demanding to be queen is partially to better achieve that. Viserys onyl wanted it because it was his by right and for his personal gain. I think those two are very different in certain aspects. she wants to invade and conquer a land she hasn't been to since she was an infant, killing anyone that gets in her way. she fucked up slaver's bay beyond recognition leading to the deaths of tens of thousands and doesn't even admit that she fucked up. she goes out to conquer and slaughter, but then when it all goes to shit its "oh, she's just a 16 year old girl, poor thing". she may have had good intentions, but she has proven herself to be a whiny, lying, spoiled, incompetent little bitch who goes around demanding shit from everyone she meets, and then threatening them with fire and blood when they tell her to fuck off. her character actually showed maturity and growth at the end of AGoT and then dwindled down to shit. she couldn't even rule over 1 city, and all she takes away from her experience in slaver's bay is that she still somehow thinks she would make a good ruler for all of westeros. she wants the iron throne because she thinks she deserves it, no different than viserys. "i am the mother of dragons / blood of the dragon / blood of old valeriya /etc etc ... give me stuff!". every chapter with her is just more the same old self-entitled attitude because of her heritage (that she didn't even experience firsthand).
True. But she is still a better person than Viserys. That Bastard would have taken every slave and he would have kept them as slaves. And she sees some of her own faults if (!) I remember correctly: it was her Idea to stay to pretty much learn how to rule wasn't it something like 'I need to learn how to rule. If I can't rule a city how can I rule westeros'.
And if I am correct other kings consider the Throne their "right" too. I basically agree that she is seven kinds of brat-ish. But not Visery's like. That bastard is the same kind of entitled but would never give anything back. At least I can't remember giving anything positive to anyone. I see your point though and partially agree.
|
Russian Federation59 Posts
On May 02 2013 07:11 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 07:05 ecstazy wrote:On May 02 2013 05:31 Synocist wrote:On May 02 2013 03:15 ecstazy wrote:
Was there ever any king who did not feel self-entitled and demanding?
They are all the same and Dany is no worse in this regard than others who want the throne. Jon Snow. If he has royal blood, he doesn't know about it. Knowing you are a king is the key part of having self-entitlement. Besides, in the current system, it wouldn't make a difference if he found out. He is in the night's watch. All his claims to the throne are nullified by this unless someone changes the rules. You are a man of the Night's Watch until your death...
Haha. That's great. I didn't think of that. :D
|
mm ive been wondering, if Varys has been plotting for so long to bring the Targayens back, why would he try to have Dany killed ??? he could just not have sent the order, or use some kind of excuse.
also, im starting to suspect that Aegon (being true or fake Aegon) just exists so that when Dany comes to Westeros (if she ever does..) has to deny he s birth rigth by imposing herself (either figthing him, calling him a fake, killing him, etc)
|
On May 02 2013 04:16 ecstazy wrote:
Stannis is just as self-entitled and demanding as Dany. He assassinated his brother and wastefully assaulted the King's landing while being fully aware of the casualties his army would sustain. He wants that throne and his excuse for why he should have it is exactly the same as Dany's. He is as much a rightful king as Daenerys is a rightful queen. Just depends on whether you appreciate Aegon's conquest or Robert's conquest more.
As to Astapor? When she came there it was a disgusting place. Now that she left, it's still a disgusting place, but now she has an army. She'll take that trade any day. No one ever said she was a saint (ok some say it, but they are wrong).
It takes a rather selective reading of the text to not realize that Renly was doing his utmost to kill Stannis. For someone so concerned about Stannis' troops, you seem to not realize that Renly's method of kinslaying would have ended with a literal mountain of corpses.
Stannis does not want the throne, he doesn't understand why anyone would want the Iron Throne from conversations with Davos. He simply believes it's his duty to become King, due to the line of secession. This sense of duty eventually goes well beyond simply sitting himself on the throne (which is what every other current contestant considers kingship to be), it extends to actual self-sacrifice for the realm. Save the kingdom to win the throne, not win the throne to save the kingdom...
More importantly, Stannis can take insults and deeply personal criticism. When Davos or Jon tells him he's being a retard, Stannis listens. OTOH, Dany hasn't had the courage to even reflect on why Mad King Aerys had that particular prefix in front of his name yet...or think about how someone like the Evil Usurper got half the kingdom fighting on his side. Makes sense for someone whose motto is "if I look back I'm lost", but I hope she works out her family history before she gets to Westeros.
Astapor was a bad place when Dany went there. Now it's a hellhole. Different levels of "terrible" exist, and Dany failed hard on that one. I find it interesting that Tywin states that no true ruler ever has to claim he is the ruler...yet Dany consistently asserts that she is the blood of the dragon. It's an interesting parallel.
|
I felt like Sansa near the end of SoS and during FoC was the character I hated (esp. during GoT/CoK) then started to warm up to, and genuinely excited to see what they do to her.
Dany is the exact polar opposite.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
