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On November 25 2013 05:47 KwarK wrote:
The story of Doctor Who (I've only watched the revived series) is that a man, insane with grief for the loss of his people and guilt for his part in it and crippled by loneliness wanders around trying to find a way to exist. He carries with him an enormous burden, both the weight of his actions and the legacy of his people, in different circumstances he'd probably commit suicide but he can't bring himself to make his own species extinct. He has more accumulated knowledge than any other man and the ability to go anywhere and anywhen but he cannot change what he did and must learn to live with it as best he can. Through his interactions with his companions and the human race as a whole he learns to take each day again, to share vicarious joy in their new experiences and wonder, to find new things to value and to protect them and to try to honour the insurmountable debt he carries with him. The persona of the Doctor is his way of trying to live with himself after what he had to do during the time war, his actions, his eccentricity and his obsession with saving everyone and not taking life reflects his pathological crippling guilt.
He learns to experience joy through sharing the universe with his companions, the companions help him deal with his loneliness, he redefines himself and finds new meaning in protecting humanity and helping people and in doing so learns to shed his old identity and the self loathing that goes with it, he learns to forgive himself through saving people at any cost.
The Doctor without the genocide of Gallifrey is no Doctor I have any interest in.
Well that's a good assessment, but remember: the Doctor is different in each of his faces and each face is influenced by what's on his soul.
Nine was a man trying to hide from what he was. He was often in the background of whatever conflict was going on, he never was in the forefront like Ten or Eleven. He was usually the observer, helping in minimal ways because the last time he intervened in a big way, he committed double genocide.
When he regenerated into Ten, he was partially happy because he had found peace with Rose, and he had started to enjoy his travels again. Gallifrey was in the back of his mind, so he regenerated into a man who hid his regret behind a playful exterior. The Moment describes him as "the man who regrets", and this is who he is all through his iteration. His catchphrase is "I'm so, so sorry" (well, one of them anyway), and when Eleven flashes back through all of Ten's companions in "Let's Kill Hitler", he associates all of them with grief.
Eleven was described as "the man who forgets". He barely talks about ANYTHING that happened in previous seasons, even Gallifrey is barely brought up through his tenure, while Ten was quick to talk about it. He (almost) never discusses any of the big things that happened, or his companions, or anything.
While yes, the Doctor will no longer have the Fall of Gallifrey on his mind, the next Doctor doesn't have to be molded by that. This regeneration can be something new, he won't just be Smith or Tenant in a new skin, he'll be someone different, with different things on his mind and priorities. And I find that interesting.
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United States44258 Posts
On November 25 2013 06:55 Gnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 06:48 KwarK wrote:
The issue is every single bit of growth and rehabilitation the Doctor has previously experienced, which is the entire point of the story, is basically now pointless because now Gallifrey wasn't destroyed and he'll eventually find that out anyway and once he does he doesn't need to have the burden of being the last of his kind and all the guilt and can just get on with his life. Had he not saved anyone and just a few thousand years crying and self harming he'd still be fine once he learned Gallifrey was still about. Doctor Who is about what the Doctor did after the genocide, how he coped, how he recovered emotionally, how he found new purpose and learned to experience joy again, as well as how it drove him pretty crazy. None of that has any meaning if it was just killing time before him learning that it was all a dream. Why would it just be a dream? In timeline 'A' he commits genocide, and in timeline 'B' (which we were just brought into) he doesn't, yet still thinks that he has. That doesn't destroy the narrative for me, or my sense of enjoyment.
Not sure that's how time travel works. The Doctor always saved Gallifrey and just believed he did not because :timey wimey: (a future Doctor goes back and helps him save Gallifrey and he doesn't remember what he hasn't done yet) and then finds out now and the destruction of Gallifrey was all just a dream.
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On November 25 2013 07:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 06:55 Gnosis wrote:On November 25 2013 06:48 KwarK wrote:
The issue is every single bit of growth and rehabilitation the Doctor has previously experienced, which is the entire point of the story, is basically now pointless because now Gallifrey wasn't destroyed and he'll eventually find that out anyway and once he does he doesn't need to have the burden of being the last of his kind and all the guilt and can just get on with his life. Had he not saved anyone and just a few thousand years crying and self harming he'd still be fine once he learned Gallifrey was still about. Doctor Who is about what the Doctor did after the genocide, how he coped, how he recovered emotionally, how he found new purpose and learned to experience joy again, as well as how it drove him pretty crazy. None of that has any meaning if it was just killing time before him learning that it was all a dream. Why would it just be a dream? In timeline 'A' he commits genocide, and in timeline 'B' (which we were just brought into) he doesn't, yet still thinks that he has. That doesn't destroy the narrative for me, or my sense of enjoyment. Not sure that's how time travel works. The Doctor always saved Gallifrey and just believed he did not because :timey wimey: (a future Doctor goes back and helps him save Gallifrey and he doesn't remember what he hasn't done yet) and then finds out now and the destruction of Gallifrey was all just a dream.
Well, it is all 'timey-wimey', but I'm not quick to eliminate the possibility that the Doctor changed his past in a meaningful way, saving Gallifrey (and destroying the Daleks) in a way that he didn't originally.
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On November 25 2013 06:55 Gnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 06:48 KwarK wrote:
The issue is every single bit of growth and rehabilitation the Doctor has previously experienced, which is the entire point of the story, is basically now pointless because now Gallifrey wasn't destroyed and he'll eventually find that out anyway and once he does he doesn't need to have the burden of being the last of his kind and all the guilt and can just get on with his life. Had he not saved anyone and just a few thousand years crying and self harming he'd still be fine once he learned Gallifrey was still about. Doctor Who is about what the Doctor did after the genocide, how he coped, how he recovered emotionally, how he found new purpose and learned to experience joy again, as well as how it drove him pretty crazy. None of that has any meaning if it was just killing time before him learning that it was all a dream. Why would it just be a dream? In timeline 'A' he commits genocide, and in timeline 'B' (which we were just brought into) he doesn't, yet still thinks that he has. That doesn't destroy the narrative for me, or my sense of enjoyment.
Because someone's core belief in life is operating under something that he "forgot didn't really happen" is fucking stupid. It turns him into a forgetful moron rather than an interesting character.
Oh, and did everyone magically forget The End of Time? Remember how long he goes on about how fucked up the war made the Time Lords? Now they're coming back. That means Lord President and all.
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On November 25 2013 07:42 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 06:55 Gnosis wrote:On November 25 2013 06:48 KwarK wrote:
The issue is every single bit of growth and rehabilitation the Doctor has previously experienced, which is the entire point of the story, is basically now pointless because now Gallifrey wasn't destroyed and he'll eventually find that out anyway and once he does he doesn't need to have the burden of being the last of his kind and all the guilt and can just get on with his life. Had he not saved anyone and just a few thousand years crying and self harming he'd still be fine once he learned Gallifrey was still about. Doctor Who is about what the Doctor did after the genocide, how he coped, how he recovered emotionally, how he found new purpose and learned to experience joy again, as well as how it drove him pretty crazy. None of that has any meaning if it was just killing time before him learning that it was all a dream. Why would it just be a dream? In timeline 'A' he commits genocide, and in timeline 'B' (which we were just brought into) he doesn't, yet still thinks that he has. That doesn't destroy the narrative for me, or my sense of enjoyment. Because someone's core belief in life is operating under something that he "forgot didn't really happen" is fucking stupid. It turns him into a forgetful moron rather than an interesting character. Oh, and did everyone magically forget The End of Time? Remember how long he goes on about how fucked up the war made the Time Lords? Now they're coming back. That means Lord President and all.
Forgetting =/= not remembering.
There are problems for sure (why would he remember pressing a button he didn't press?) but again, none which destroy the narrative for me. I have no problem suspending my disbelief when it comes to the Doctor preventing himself from pressing a red button, providing an alternative means of ending the Time War, then having the timey-wimey stream resolve itself and in the process wipe those memories from him.
I can't take the series that seriously.
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On November 25 2013 07:51 Gnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 07:42 deth2munkies wrote:On November 25 2013 06:55 Gnosis wrote:On November 25 2013 06:48 KwarK wrote:
The issue is every single bit of growth and rehabilitation the Doctor has previously experienced, which is the entire point of the story, is basically now pointless because now Gallifrey wasn't destroyed and he'll eventually find that out anyway and once he does he doesn't need to have the burden of being the last of his kind and all the guilt and can just get on with his life. Had he not saved anyone and just a few thousand years crying and self harming he'd still be fine once he learned Gallifrey was still about. Doctor Who is about what the Doctor did after the genocide, how he coped, how he recovered emotionally, how he found new purpose and learned to experience joy again, as well as how it drove him pretty crazy. None of that has any meaning if it was just killing time before him learning that it was all a dream. Why would it just be a dream? In timeline 'A' he commits genocide, and in timeline 'B' (which we were just brought into) he doesn't, yet still thinks that he has. That doesn't destroy the narrative for me, or my sense of enjoyment. Because someone's core belief in life is operating under something that he "forgot didn't really happen" is fucking stupid. It turns him into a forgetful moron rather than an interesting character. Oh, and did everyone magically forget The End of Time? Remember how long he goes on about how fucked up the war made the Time Lords? Now they're coming back. That means Lord President and all. Forgetting =/= not remembering. There are problems for sure (why would he remember pressing a button he didn't press?) but again, none which destroy the narrative for me. I have no problem suspending my disbelief when it comes to the Doctor preventing himself from pressing a red button, providing an alternative means of ending the Time War, then having the timey-wimey stream resolve itself and in the process wipe those memories from him. I can't take the series that seriously.
Sure, but was it really necessary? Is the payoff of 1 good episode worth forcing you to suspend your disbelief at everything that came before?
How does this enrich his character? Why do this at all? Costs don't outweigh the benefits.
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On November 25 2013 07:42 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 06:55 Gnosis wrote:On November 25 2013 06:48 KwarK wrote:
The issue is every single bit of growth and rehabilitation the Doctor has previously experienced, which is the entire point of the story, is basically now pointless because now Gallifrey wasn't destroyed and he'll eventually find that out anyway and once he does he doesn't need to have the burden of being the last of his kind and all the guilt and can just get on with his life. Had he not saved anyone and just a few thousand years crying and self harming he'd still be fine once he learned Gallifrey was still about. Doctor Who is about what the Doctor did after the genocide, how he coped, how he recovered emotionally, how he found new purpose and learned to experience joy again, as well as how it drove him pretty crazy. None of that has any meaning if it was just killing time before him learning that it was all a dream. Why would it just be a dream? In timeline 'A' he commits genocide, and in timeline 'B' (which we were just brought into) he doesn't, yet still thinks that he has. That doesn't destroy the narrative for me, or my sense of enjoyment. Because someone's core belief in life is operating under something that he "forgot didn't really happen" is fucking stupid. It turns him into a forgetful moron rather than an interesting character. Oh, and did everyone magically forget The End of Time? Remember how long he goes on about how fucked up the war made the Time Lords? Now they're coming back. That means Lord President and all.
I was hoping that the Doctor's secret was that he destroyed Gallifrey even though he didn't strictly need to, because he feared what the Time Lords had become or something like that. Now it turns out there never were never any difficult choices to be made at all.
I don't really get why he had to become a ''warrior" instead of a doctor either, what was even the point of that? This version of the doctor doesn't even seem more morally grey than the others, we've never seen any of it anyway. 10 and 11 were perfectly happy to press that button without being "warriors", untill 11 realised that they could save everyone.
The way this realization came about was pretty silly too. Right about to blow it all up, then there is a tiny little speech by Clara that guilts 11, and then he suddenly remembers he has been thinking about it for 400 years and actually had the answers all along. I really need to stop thinking about everything that was wrong with the special. 
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I think I can understand people being upset with the saving of gallifrey, but I think it was necessary. I remember the old doc, and the new who always has seemed someone angsty. But what the destruction of gallifrey really served for is as a placeholder for all the history of Doctor Who, so new viewers could understand the character without having to watch all those old shows. But now it's irrelevant. Everyone has plenty of new who to go back and see what the Doctor's personality is. So now they know who he is, even if they don't know why anymore, and that ties us back to the central mystery of old Who, asking who he is. So it's about time Gallifrey was saved. The Doctor needs to face his end whole, not distracted by unresolved events in his past.
It is weak to say that the Doctor has no reason to save all those people. It's what Baker said when he saved the Daleks, that fear would bring people together. And It's what Hurt said too, and it's what everyone should have realized was wrong. People will come together, and people will do the right thing, without needing some tragic history. We cannot attribute good deeds to a need for redemption, but must realize that good deeds are done for their own reward.
So the doctor can now explore the universe for its own sake, as he always should have. halleluiah.
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Additionally the circumstances in which the Hurt Doctor decided to destroy gallifrey are wrong too. At the time of the Moment, Hurt believed that doing so would remove both the threat of the Time Lords and the Daleks from reality, and he was proven wrong, as both have been a danger in the new series. So for only that reason, he could decide to change his mind. It is possible that the power-mad Rassilon would rule the High Council, but better to fight him than to condem billions of innocents to death. More likely, that with the Daleks destroyed, and without the excuse of that War to justify his methods, he would be overthrown by the other Time Lords.
Yes, it is all a bit pat and easy, but just because the special didn't have time to go into all of the consequences of his choices doesn't mean there aren't any. It could be the new launching point for the series, which I think it really needed, after the randomness of last season.
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On November 25 2013 06:56 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 05:47 KwarK wrote:
The story of Doctor Who (I've only watched the revived series) is that a man, insane with grief for the loss of his people and guilt for his part in it and crippled by loneliness wanders around trying to find a way to exist. He carries with him an enormous burden, both the weight of his actions and the legacy of his people, in different circumstances he'd probably commit suicide but he can't bring himself to make his own species extinct. He has more accumulated knowledge than any other man and the ability to go anywhere and anywhen but he cannot change what he did and must learn to live with it as best he can. Through his interactions with his companions and the human race as a whole he learns to take each day again, to share vicarious joy in their new experiences and wonder, to find new things to value and to protect them and to try to honour the insurmountable debt he carries with him. The persona of the Doctor is his way of trying to live with himself after what he had to do during the time war, his actions, his eccentricity and his obsession with saving everyone and not taking life reflects his pathological crippling guilt.
He learns to experience joy through sharing the universe with his companions, the companions help him deal with his loneliness, he redefines himself and finds new meaning in protecting humanity and helping people and in doing so learns to shed his old identity and the self loathing that goes with it, he learns to forgive himself through saving people at any cost.
The Doctor without the genocide of Gallifrey is no Doctor I have any interest in. Well that's a good assessment, but remember: the Doctor is different in each of his faces and each face is influenced by what's on his soul. Nine was a man trying to hide from what he was. He was often in the background of whatever conflict was going on, he never was in the forefront like Ten or Eleven. He was usually the observer, helping in minimal ways because the last time he intervened in a big way, he committed double genocide. When he regenerated into Ten, he was partially happy because he had found peace with Rose, and he had started to enjoy his travels again. Gallifrey was in the back of his mind, so he regenerated into a man who hid his regret behind a playful exterior. The Moment describes him as "the man who regrets", and this is who he is all through his iteration. His catchphrase is "I'm so, so sorry" (well, one of them anyway), and when Eleven flashes back through all of Ten's companions in "Let's Kill Hitler", he associates all of them with grief. Eleven was described as "the man who forgets". He barely talks about ANYTHING that happened in previous seasons, even Gallifrey is barely brought up through his tenure, while Ten was quick to talk about it. He (almost) never discusses any of the big things that happened, or his companions, or anything. While yes, the Doctor will no longer have the Fall of Gallifrey on his mind, the next Doctor doesn't have to be molded by that. This regeneration can be something new, he won't just be Smith or Tenant in a new skin, he'll be someone different, with different things on his mind and priorities. And I find that interesting.
Both of the new series regenerations had development to them. Tennant and Smith's doctors built upon the issues that were resolved in their previous regeneration. 9 dealt with the more superficial emotional repercussions of the time war culminating in the realization that he wasn't the same man, and wouldn't have made the same decision if presented with the choice again.
10 dealt with the deeper emotional ramifications, culminating in the whole Time Lord victorious thing. 10 was the most righteouss doctor, supposedly as atonement for what he had done. Towards the end he realised it was time to move on, but he didn't want to go.
11 was very much in the process of moving on, and dealing with the loneliness that is inherent to his existence as the last of his species. Unlike Tennant's doctor he was less righteouss, more devious, willing to lie and mislead, more childlike and unwilling to deal with deeper emotional issues that 10 wallowed in as self-chastisement.
The new regeneration can indeed be anything, because all of the previous was a lie. I don't see how that can possibly be a good thing.
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Guys, what let 10 and 11 into a time locked event?
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Well, no matter what, great episode! :D
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On November 25 2013 11:22 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Guys, what let 10 and 11 into a time locked event?
The Moment opened it for them. I wonder if that was also how Dalek Caan got back into the time war...
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On November 25 2013 11:29 Foblos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 11:22 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Guys, what let 10 and 11 into a time locked event? The Moment opened it for them. I wonder if that was also how Dalek Caan got back into the time war...
Wait I don't get it. It wasn't explicitly stated and when Matt said: "Someone let us through.", Rose said: "You clever boys."
What's that supposed to mean?
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The Moment has a conscience, and that conscience is what let those three Doctor do their thing.
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Somewhere in the future, Rose, Clara and the Moment are sitting around a table, drinking tea.
I imagine their plan would never have worked without the Moment's cooporation, which they wouldn't have, if the previous incarnations didn't even *exist* yet.
Arguably, Clara's interference in the Doctor's timestream also crossed the wires and allowed the Moment to reevaluate the situation. Thus the Doctor was able to break the time lock, to the consternation of everyone, including the Time Lords.
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Just watched it, It's pretty good. The banter between the doctors was actually quite solid and didn't feel utterly hammed up, apart from one or two moments. I dunno if I missed something but last time I saw stuff the series cut in the middle of drama with the doctor saving clara from his own timestream death, and suddenly clara is just another companion.
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The Moment is that powerful? It can let people in and out of Timelocked events ezmode?
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On November 25 2013 16:41 SilverSkyLark wrote:
The Moment is that powerful? It can let people in and out of Timelocked events ezmode?
Technically the moment let the doctors in and out before the timelock occurred. The effect of the retcon is basically that this is what "really" had happened while 9/10/11 all had the impression that something else entirely occurred.
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On November 25 2013 16:41 SilverSkyLark wrote:
The Moment is that powerful? It can let people in and out of Timelocked events ezmode?
I was under the impression that the Moment was what timelocked it in the first place.
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EPT
