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United States44258 Posts
On November 24 2013 10:17 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 06:46 KwarK wrote:
Didn't like it. The destruction of Gallifrey was so fundamental to his history and his great mission of atonement. It is the moment that makes him the man he is, you can't fuck with that event. I can't tell if you believe that Gallifrey was always destroyed. There are a lot of people out there who are outraged that Moffatt would dare rewrite all Doctor Who history by bringing back Gallifrey, not realising that it was only destroyed in the revived series.
Don't really care how it was in the original series vs the revived series, it's just in the revived series Gallifrey was meant to be the one thing the Doctor couldn't save which triggers his insane obsession with saving everything to try and somehow atone and change what he did even though he never can. Having him actually change what he did undermines the very essence of the Doctor.
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On November 24 2013 11:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 10:17 ahswtini wrote:On November 24 2013 06:46 KwarK wrote:
Didn't like it. The destruction of Gallifrey was so fundamental to his history and his great mission of atonement. It is the moment that makes him the man he is, you can't fuck with that event. I can't tell if you believe that Gallifrey was always destroyed. There are a lot of people out there who are outraged that Moffatt would dare rewrite all Doctor Who history by bringing back Gallifrey, not realising that it was only destroyed in the revived series. Don't really care how it was in the original series vs the revived series, it's just in the revived series Gallifrey was meant to be the one thing the Doctor couldn't save which triggers his insane obsession with saving everything to try and somehow atone and change what he did even though he never can. Having him actually change what he did undermines the very essence of the Doctor.
But it doesn't actually change anything. He doesn't remember that he saved it until he is where the 11th is right now and so it still defines his character. It's not as if he's going to say "I actually did save Gallifrey so I guess I won't save everyone anymore." I don't think it undermines the essence of the Doctor at all, but rather reinforces it.
Also now that Gallifrey can come back so too can awesome villains like the Rani. Maybe we'll even get to see Romana or Susan again.
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On November 24 2013 12:56 SupaChicken wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 11:24 KwarK wrote:On November 24 2013 10:17 ahswtini wrote:On November 24 2013 06:46 KwarK wrote:
Didn't like it. The destruction of Gallifrey was so fundamental to his history and his great mission of atonement. It is the moment that makes him the man he is, you can't fuck with that event. I can't tell if you believe that Gallifrey was always destroyed. There are a lot of people out there who are outraged that Moffatt would dare rewrite all Doctor Who history by bringing back Gallifrey, not realising that it was only destroyed in the revived series. Don't really care how it was in the original series vs the revived series, it's just in the revived series Gallifrey was meant to be the one thing the Doctor couldn't save which triggers his insane obsession with saving everything to try and somehow atone and change what he did even though he never can. Having him actually change what he did undermines the very essence of the Doctor. But it doesn't actually change anything. He doesn't remember that he saved it until he is where the 11th is right now and so it still defines his character. It's not as if he's going to say "I actually did save Gallifrey so I guess I won't save everyone anymore." I don't think it undermines the essence of the Doctor at all, but rather reinforces it. Also now that Gallifrey can come back so too can awesome villains like the Rani. Maybe we'll even get to see Romana or Susan again.
Yeah, it's a goddamned retcon though. It wipes out the actual meaning behind the character as he's now just a guy with a faulty memory instead of a deep, layered character. I mean it opens up a bunch of new possible story points and lets us see Gallifrey a lot more, but it seems like changing something so central to the character/storyline is annoying.
I'll get over it but I don't have to like it.
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+ Show Spoiler +Technically, wouldn't Hurt and Tennant forget what they did and only Smith would recall? Also, I was hoping they'd show Ecc again. 
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On November 24 2013 18:50 SilverSkyLark wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Technically, wouldn't Hurt and Tennant forget what they did and only Smith would recall? Also, I was hoping they'd show Ecc again.
Yep. They were discussing this in the final scene.
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I wonder when Clara went to the archive and Rory from who I saw on the picture wall.
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How can you say redemption for the destruction of Gallifrey is integral to the doctors character when he spent 40 odd years before that particular piece was written.
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In the last episode of season 7 we learn that John Hurt's incarnation of the doctor is "his secret". I was under the impression that the secret was more than just burning his own people along with the daleks, since we already knew he did this since season 1.
The time war really just seemed like a conventional war, "the end of time" special made it sound alot cooler than it was showsn, and a long standing fact was that the time lords went insane towards the end. They seemed to be alright.
Though I really like the rest of the episode, I really dislike what the special added to the cannon. Gallifrey is now ready to return, and we learn nothing else at all about the time war, or the doctor's role in it.
The more I think about what was actually shown, the more disappointed I become. Just feels like a giant cop-out.
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On November 24 2013 19:15 TheLink wrote:
How can you say redemption for the destruction of Gallifrey is integral to the doctors character when he spent 40 odd years before that particular piece was written.
That's true, it was a 50th anniversary, not a 8th anniversary.
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I felt there were some giant plotholes, I could have missed/misinterpreted some stuff so I'd love to be wrong here. But my final conclusion is as follows:
- Rose, what the fuck was up with that? The OS of The Moment decided to take her form is all. What does that have to do with Bad Wolf? Why is Bad Wolf even mentioned? I felt that it meant nothing. All I saw was the same actress playing a different character.
- The whole saving Gallifrey from destruction seems to bother me the most. Matt's Doc seemed to remember the events, acting annoyed when the time portal showed up and even saying "Oooh, this is where I come in" implying very strongly that he remembers the events from when he was Tennant's Doc. This of course means that the events Matt recalls also include all 3 doctors. I dislike this pretty hard because, well, the whole reasoning behind them saving Gallifrey was "there's 3 of us now!". Something should have changed between Matt experiencing these events as Tennant (And blowing up Gallifrey in the end) and Matt experiencing these events as Matt. However no "special events" occured that could've influenced their decision to not do it this time. All I could think of was the Zygons, however that seems like a rather weak motivator to try and save their home planet instead of blowing it up this time. I also feel like this trivializes the Doctors blowing up Gallifrey, since it was always considered inevitable that they did.
- Lack of surprises. Of course Gallifrey being saved was a surprise, because as I explained above I completely expected them to blow it up. It was leaked that 2 people would show up in the special: Baker and Donna. Well, there was no Donna, and I expected that they managed to atleast film some scenes in secrecy. (With special guest star(s))
I also agree with Crushinator's post regarding Time War related stuff being shown. However I do feel that the big secret was him ending the Time War.
There were some positive things though, I'm a huge fan of Tennant's Doc so watching him go around with his device that goes DING! And it was great to have his previously unexplained history with Elizabeth the First revealed. I thought the build up was done pretty well, the banter between the 3 Docs was pretty entertaining as well. Also Tom Baker showing up as The Curator in the end I found pretty cool.
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+ Show Spoiler +So from the first christmas special trailer, it appears we might be getting a bit of resolution about the question, the silence and Trenzalore. Really hope it is good, I feel like we are owed that at this point. I'm gonna miss Matt Smith a whole lot, I hope they give him a worthy ending.
Oh one thing I couldn't really make sense of is the old Tom Baker doctor in the end. Surely he isn't the 4th, since we saw that one regenerate. So he is a future (retired) doctor?
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On November 24 2013 23:56 Crushinator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So from the first christmas special trailer, it appears we might be getting a bit of resolution about the question, the silence and Trenzalore. Really hope it is good, I feel like we are owed that at this point. I'm gonna miss Matt Smith a whole lot, I hope they give him a worthy ending. Oh one thing I couldn't really make sense of is the old Tom Baker doctor in the end. Surely he isn't the 4th, since we saw that one regenerate. So he is a future (retired) doctor?
For me I just didn't take it too seriously as part of the story, like him at the end with all other 11. More like fan service and sort of breaking the fourth wall. I felt like when Tom Baker said, "Congratulations," it was more to Matt Smith than the Doctor. Again, that's just how I saw it.
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On November 24 2013 21:36 Linkirvana wrote:I felt there were some giant plotholes, I could have missed/misinterpreted some stuff so I'd love to be wrong here. But my final conclusion is as follows: - Rose, what the fuck was up with that? The OS of The Moment decided to take her form is all. What does that have to do with Bad Wolf? Why is Bad Wolf even mentioned? I felt that it meant nothing. All I saw was the same actress playing a different character. + Show Spoiler [snip] +- The whole saving Gallifrey from destruction seems to bother me the most. Matt's Doc seemed to remember the events, acting annoyed when the time portal showed up and even saying "Oooh, this is where I come in" implying very strongly that he remembers the events from when he was Tennant's Doc. This of course means that the events Matt recalls also include all 3 doctors. I dislike this pretty hard because, well, the whole reasoning behind them saving Gallifrey was "there's 3 of us now!". Something should have changed between Matt experiencing these events as Tennant (And blowing up Gallifrey in the end) and Matt experiencing these events as Matt. However no "special events" occured that could've influenced their decision to not do it this time. All I could think of was the Zygons, however that seems like a rather weak motivator to try and save their home planet instead of blowing it up this time. I also feel like this trivializes the Doctors blowing up Gallifrey, since it was always considered inevitable that they did.
- Lack of surprises. Of course Gallifrey being saved was a surprise, because as I explained above I completely expected them to blow it up. It was leaked that 2 people would show up in the special: Baker and Donna. Well, there was no Donna, and I expected that they managed to atleast film some scenes in secrecy. (With special guest star(s))
I also agree with Crushinator's post regarding Time War related stuff being shown. However I do feel that the big secret was him ending the Time War.
There were some positive things though, I'm a huge fan of Tennant's Doc so watching him go around with his device that goes DING! And it was great to have his previously unexplained history with Elizabeth the First revealed. I thought the build up was done pretty well, the banter between the 3 Docs was pretty entertaining as well. Also Tom Baker showing up as The Curator in the end I found pretty cool.
Bad Wolf's existence is probably the whole reason they were able to write this episode. Bad Wolf is probably the most powerful entity in the Doctor Who universe, having the ability to influence just about... everything in the space-time continuum. Rose met The Doctor when he was still fresh from the Time War and saw how much it troubled him, which probably lead to Bad Wolf helping The Doctor by showing him an alternate future. Billie Piper appearing doesn't seem contrived at all, in my opinion.
As for the rest, typical Moffucking time-wimey stuff that will probably be answered in upcoming stories. We'll see.
On November 24 2013 23:56 Crushinator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So from the first christmas special trailer, it appears we might be getting a bit of resolution about the question, the silence and Trenzalore. Really hope it is good, I feel like we are owed that at this point. I'm gonna miss Matt Smith a whole lot, I hope they give him a worthy ending. Oh one thing I couldn't really make sense of is the old Tom Baker doctor in the end. Surely he isn't the 4th, since we saw that one regenerate. So he is a future (retired) doctor?
Tom Baker's character said The Doctor will revisit old faces. I think he's implying that after the 13th regeneration, he'll retire and go through his old regenerations. Sounds like an excuse to do specials with old Doctors.
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United States44258 Posts
The story of Doctor Who (I've only watched the revived series) is that a man, insane with grief for the loss of his people and guilt for his part in it and crippled by loneliness wanders around trying to find a way to exist. He carries with him an enormous burden, both the weight of his actions and the legacy of his people, in different circumstances he'd probably commit suicide but he can't bring himself to make his own species extinct. He has more accumulated knowledge than any other man and the ability to go anywhere and anywhen but he cannot change what he did and must learn to live with it as best he can. Through his interactions with his companions and the human race as a whole he learns to take each day again, to share vicarious joy in their new experiences and wonder, to find new things to value and to protect them and to try to honour the insurmountable debt he carries with him. The persona of the Doctor is his way of trying to live with himself after what he had to do during the time war, his actions, his eccentricity and his obsession with saving everyone and not taking life reflects his pathological crippling guilt.
He learns to experience joy through sharing the universe with his companions, the companions help him deal with his loneliness, he redefines himself and finds new meaning in protecting humanity and helping people and in doing so learns to shed his old identity and the self loathing that goes with it, he learns to forgive himself through saving people at any cost.
The Doctor without the genocide of Gallifrey is no Doctor I have any interest in.
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On November 24 2013 19:15 TheLink wrote:
How can you say redemption for the destruction of Gallifrey is integral to the doctors character when he spent 40 odd years before that particular piece was written.
If you're talking to me I didn't say that Galifrey's redemption was integral. I said redemption is integral to the Doctor, as he goes around healing and helping others, ESPECIALLY after Galifrey was destroyed. I thought it was fitting that in this episode he helped and healed himself...or at least tried to.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
I don't think the Doctor is going to completely revert to what he was before just because Gallifrey is no longer gone. The memory of the guilt and weight upon him is still going to keep him in shape imo.
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I enjoyed the 50th, and was half expecting the turn it took when McGann uttered 'Physician, heal thyself' in the six minute teaser.
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United States44258 Posts
The issue is every single bit of growth and rehabilitation the Doctor has previously experienced, which is the entire point of the story, is basically now pointless because now Gallifrey wasn't destroyed and he'll eventually find that out anyway and once he does he doesn't need to have the burden of being the last of his kind and all the guilt and can just get on with his life. Had he not saved anyone and just a few thousand years crying and self harming he'd still be fine once he learned Gallifrey was still about. Doctor Who is about what the Doctor did after the genocide, how he coped, how he recovered emotionally, how he found new purpose and learned to experience joy again, as well as how it drove him pretty crazy. None of that has any meaning if it was just killing time before him learning that it was all a dream.
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On November 25 2013 06:48 KwarK wrote:
The issue is every single bit of growth and rehabilitation the Doctor has previously experienced, which is the entire point of the story, is basically now pointless because now Gallifrey wasn't destroyed and he'll eventually find that out anyway and once he does he doesn't need to have the burden of being the last of his kind and all the guilt and can just get on with his life. Had he not saved anyone and just a few thousand years crying and self harming he'd still be fine once he learned Gallifrey was still about. Doctor Who is about what the Doctor did after the genocide, how he coped, how he recovered emotionally, how he found new purpose and learned to experience joy again, as well as how it drove him pretty crazy. None of that has any meaning if it was just killing time before him learning that it was all a dream.
Why would it just be a dream? In timeline 'A' he commits genocide, and in timeline 'B' (which we were just brought into) he doesn't, yet still thinks that he has. That doesn't destroy the narrative for me, or my sense of enjoyment.
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EPT
