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On June 06 2015 02:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 02:16 spudde123 wrote:On June 06 2015 01:52 Azarkon wrote:
They did, and at the time, in case you forgot, iG ALSO performed well vs. Western teams. In fact, even Ehome won that one tournament with EG, didn't they? In the period after TI 4, and till DAC, Chinese teams all performed well vs. Western teams, making people believe it was going to be another TI 4 at TI 5. But then DAC occurred, and the Chinese analogue to Alliance's fall occurred with Newbee and VG getting smashed by EG.
I am not sure where this impression is coming from. After TI4, western teams went to China twice. First time was the first event after TI4, WEC, where EG and c9 placed ahead of all Chinese teams and faced each other in the finals. 2nd event was WCA some time later, where again c9 was in the finals (ahead of LGD, iG, VG for example) and got defeated by Newbee. VG was the only Chinese team really that competed internationally because they won all the qualifiers. iG certainly didn't do anything against western teams during that period. Technically the first Chinese event with westerners was i-League 2, where I think VP and another EU team got utterly stomped and ended up in last place, and VG won.
This is a fairly irrelevant thing but this isn't true. iLeague was originally scheduled to be at the same time as WEC as far as I remember and then rescheduled close to a month later. iLeague was closer to WCA then WEC. And yea, iLeague also didn't have very relevant representation from the western scenes, whereas WEC and WCA did.
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On June 06 2015 02:16 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 01:52 Azarkon wrote:
They did, and at the time, in case you forgot, iG ALSO performed well vs. Western teams. In fact, even Ehome won that one tournament with EG, didn't they? In the period after TI 4, and till DAC, Chinese teams all performed well vs. Western teams, making people believe it was going to be another TI 4 at TI 5. But then DAC occurred, and the Chinese analogue to Alliance's fall occurred with Newbee and VG getting smashed by EG.
I am not sure where this impression is coming from. After TI4, western teams went to China twice. First time was the first event after TI4, WEC, where EG and c9 placed ahead of all Chinese teams and faced each other in the finals. 2nd event was WCA some time later, where again c9 was in the finals (ahead of LGD, iG, VG for example) and got defeated by Newbee. VG was the only Chinese team really that competed internationally because they won all the qualifiers. iG certainly didn't do anything against western teams during that period.
WEC was a Western win, but every other tournament till DAC was a Western loss:
WCA - Newbee > C9
ESL New York - VG > EG
Dota 2 League - LV/Ehome > VP.Polar
BTS 2 - VG > C9
Yes, VG took two of the biggest tournaments during this time. But Newbee took WCA and LV/Ehome took Dota 2 League. I think I conflated iG's performance after DAC with theirs beforehand, so ignore that, but even so, the evidence was not there that when VG was smashing Western teams, the rest of the Chinese scene was behind the rest of the Western scene.
The big shift came during DAC, and it is of great importance to observe that, when the rest of the Chinese teams struggled, so did VG. It wasn't though VG won the tournament while every other Chinese team sucked. They barely edged out a win vs. Secret in the LB finals, and then got smashed 0-3 by EG.
After DAC, we saw the same parallel performances. During Major All-stars and SL 12, the last 6.83 tournaments, iG and VG both performed well, and people thought the Chinese scene was making a recovery after DAC. The moment 6.84 hit, however, it was a disaster for the entire Chinese scene. iG lost Redbull, and VG lost D2CL. Then iG, VG, and LGD all lost BTS 3. Now 5/6 Chinese teams are out of MDL.
Team performances don't differ greatly from their regions' performances. That's the idea.
What IS the case, however, is that regional performances do vary between patches and between seasons, especially between regions that are just 1-2 steps ahead/behind each other, which is how I see the West and China.
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On June 06 2015 02:41 Sn0_Man wrote:
when u say in retrospect i guess u mean in revisionism yes
No, it's in retrospect to the overhype that was going on at the time - ie people calling Stephano the best player in the world even though he wasn't.
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On June 06 2015 02:48 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 02:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 02:16 spudde123 wrote:On June 06 2015 01:52 Azarkon wrote:
They did, and at the time, in case you forgot, iG ALSO performed well vs. Western teams. In fact, even Ehome won that one tournament with EG, didn't they? In the period after TI 4, and till DAC, Chinese teams all performed well vs. Western teams, making people believe it was going to be another TI 4 at TI 5. But then DAC occurred, and the Chinese analogue to Alliance's fall occurred with Newbee and VG getting smashed by EG.
I am not sure where this impression is coming from. After TI4, western teams went to China twice. First time was the first event after TI4, WEC, where EG and c9 placed ahead of all Chinese teams and faced each other in the finals. 2nd event was WCA some time later, where again c9 was in the finals (ahead of LGD, iG, VG for example) and got defeated by Newbee. VG was the only Chinese team really that competed internationally because they won all the qualifiers. iG certainly didn't do anything against western teams during that period. Technically the first Chinese event with westerners was i-League 2, where I think VP and another EU team got utterly stomped and ended up in last place, and VG won. This is a fairly irrelevant thing but this isn't true. iLeague was originally scheduled to be at the same time as WEC as far as I remember and then rescheduled close to a month later. iLeague was closer to WCA then WEC. And yea, iLeague also didn't have very relevant representation from the western scenes, whereas WEC and WCA did.
Oh, so it was.
TBH I don't even remember anything about that tournament other than it happening.
On June 06 2015 02:52 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 02:16 spudde123 wrote:On June 06 2015 01:52 Azarkon wrote:
They did, and at the time, in case you forgot, iG ALSO performed well vs. Western teams. In fact, even Ehome won that one tournament with EG, didn't they? In the period after TI 4, and till DAC, Chinese teams all performed well vs. Western teams, making people believe it was going to be another TI 4 at TI 5. But then DAC occurred, and the Chinese analogue to Alliance's fall occurred with Newbee and VG getting smashed by EG.
I am not sure where this impression is coming from. After TI4, western teams went to China twice. First time was the first event after TI4, WEC, where EG and c9 placed ahead of all Chinese teams and faced each other in the finals. 2nd event was WCA some time later, where again c9 was in the finals (ahead of LGD, iG, VG for example) and got defeated by Newbee. VG was the only Chinese team really that competed internationally because they won all the qualifiers. iG certainly didn't do anything against western teams during that period. WEC was a Western win, but every other tournament till DAC was a Western loss: WCA - Newbee > C9 ESL New York - VG > EG Dota 2 League - LV/Ehome > VP.Polar BTS 2 - VG > C9 Yes, VG took two of the biggest tournaments during this time. But Newbee took WCA and LV/Ehome took Dota 2 League. I think I conflated iG's performance after DAC with theirs beforehand, so ignore that, but even so, the evidence was not there that when VG was smashing Western teams, the rest of the Chinese scene was behind the rest of the Western scene. The big shift came during DAC, and it is of great importance to observe that, as the rest of the Chinese teams struggled, so did VG. It wasn't as though VG won the tournament while every other Chinese team sucked. They barely edged out a win vs. Secret in the LB finals, and then got smashed 0-3 by EG. After DAC, we saw the same parallel performances. During Major All-stars and SL 12, the last 6.83 tournaments, iG and VG both performed well, and it looked as though the Chinese scene was making a recovery after DAC. The moment 6.84 hit, however, it was a disaster for the entire Chinese scene. iG lost Redbull, and VG lost D2CL. Then iG and VG both lost BTS 3. Now 5/6 Chinese teams are out of MDL. Regions rise and fall together.
Again, it was VG and EG ahead of everyone, with an occasional showing from C9 and Newbee.
It's not the regions performing, it's just the same 3-4 teams.
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On June 06 2015 02:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Again, it was VG and EG ahead of everyone, with an occasional showing from C9 and Newbee.
It's not the regions performing, it's just the same 3-4 teams.
Newbee won WCA. VG attended.
LV/Ehome won D2L. EG attended.
How do you say that with a straight face with these results?
Teams are not 'just ahead of everyone else,' independent of regions. That's never been the case in Dota past TI 1 - ie the tournament where Na'Vi was ahead of everyone else - and it's not the case now.
TI 2 - China/SEA > West
TI 3 - West > China/SEA
TI 4 - China > West
In none of these tournaments did we see a team win, whose region was not also ahead.
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On June 06 2015 03:02 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 02:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Again, it was VG and EG ahead of everyone, with an occasional showing from C9 and Newbee.
It's not the regions performing, it's just the same 3-4 teams. Newbee won WCA. VG attended. LV/Ehome won D2L. EG attended. How do you say that with a straight face with these results?
I mean D2L was a joke of a tournament with massive packet loss throughout it. It also was only a few days after EG changed their roster. I wouldn't take the results of that tournament seriously in any way.
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On June 06 2015 03:04 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 03:02 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 02:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Again, it was VG and EG ahead of everyone, with an occasional showing from C9 and Newbee.
It's not the regions performing, it's just the same 3-4 teams. Newbee won WCA. VG attended. LV/Ehome won D2L. EG attended. How do you say that with a straight face with these results? I mean D2L was a joke of a tournament with massive packet loss throughout it. It also was only a few days after EG changed their roster. I wouldn't take the results of that tournament seriously in any way.
You understand that excuses of this sort were also used to explain WEC, DAC, and WCA results? In that case why don't we just throw away every tournament result except the TIs?
Also, EG in the month before Arteezy and Zai bailed was doing mediocre; I don't know where this 'VG and EG ahead of everyone else' idea comes from.
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No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games.
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On June 06 2015 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games.
Even ignoring D2L, these are EG's results in the two months before DAC:
4th at BTS 2
3rd/4th at Dota Pit
Basically everyone on EG said that this was EG's worst period. That's why the roster change occurred.
They were definitely not > everyone else late 2014.
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On June 06 2015 03:14 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games. Even ignoring D2L, these are EG's results in the two months before DAC: 4th at BTS 2 3rd/4th at Dota Pit Basically everyone on EG said that this was EG's worst period. That's why the roster change occurred. They were definitely not > everyone else late 2014.
EG's results post TI4 up to DAC:
1st WEC
2nd ESL One
1st Starladder 9
1st DreamLeague
4th Summit
4th DotaPit
3rd D2L
Name one team with better results than them. Oh wait, that would be VG.
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On June 06 2015 03:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 03:14 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games. Even ignoring D2L, these are EG's results in the two months before DAC: 4th at BTS 2 3rd/4th at Dota Pit Basically everyone on EG said that this was EG's worst period. That's why the roster change occurred. They were definitely not > everyone else late 2014. EG's results post TI4 up to DAC: 1st WEC 2nd ESL One 1st Starladder 9 1st DreamLeague 4th Summit 4th DotaPit 3rd D2L Name one team with better results than them. Oh wait, that would be VG.
I don't think you understand the difference between 'EG and VG had the best results among Western teams after TI 4' and 'EG and VG were ahead of everyone else after TI 4.'
In any given period, there's a ranking of teams according to results, and two teams at the top of that ranking. This is a straw man, as it doesn't show that the teams at the top of the rankings are heads and shoulders above everyone else, merely that they managed to accrue the best results during that period.
By that argument, IG, DK, and EG were 'ahead of everyone else' in 2014. Hmm, I wonder why they weren't in the finals of TI 4?
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On June 06 2015 03:22 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 03:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:14 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games. Even ignoring D2L, these are EG's results in the two months before DAC: 4th at BTS 2 3rd/4th at Dota Pit Basically everyone on EG said that this was EG's worst period. That's why the roster change occurred. They were definitely not > everyone else late 2014. EG's results post TI4 up to DAC: 1st WEC 2nd ESL One 1st Starladder 9 1st DreamLeague 4th Summit 4th DotaPit 3rd D2L Name one team with better results than them. Oh wait, that would be VG. I don't think you understand the difference between 'EG and VG had the best results among Western teams after TI 4' and 'EG and VG were above everyone else after TI 4.' In any given period, there's a ranking of teams according to results, and two teams at the top of that ranking. This is a straw man.
Yes, the two teams that won almost every premier and major tournament from post-TI4 to DAC were not, in fact, ahead of everyone else post-TI4 to DAC.
Classic Azarkon logic.
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On June 06 2015 03:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 03:22 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:14 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games. Even ignoring D2L, these are EG's results in the two months before DAC: 4th at BTS 2 3rd/4th at Dota Pit Basically everyone on EG said that this was EG's worst period. That's why the roster change occurred. They were definitely not > everyone else late 2014. EG's results post TI4 up to DAC: 1st WEC 2nd ESL One 1st Starladder 9 1st DreamLeague 4th Summit 4th DotaPit 3rd D2L Name one team with better results than them. Oh wait, that would be VG. I don't think you understand the difference between 'EG and VG had the best results among Western teams after TI 4' and 'EG and VG were above everyone else after TI 4.' In any given period, there's a ranking of teams according to results, and two teams at the top of that ranking. This is a straw man. Yes, the two teams that won almost every premier and major tournament from post-TI4 to DAC were not, in fact, ahead of everyone else post-TI4 to DAC. Classic Azarkon logic.
What are you even trying to argue? VG and EG had the best results in this six-month period and...? Does that explain why EG with two completely new players won DAC? Does that explain why VG lose 0-3 even though they beat EG previously? Does that explain why Secret went 15-0 in the group stages, but then lost to VG, and then lost to MY two months later?
Importantly, does that explain why 5/6 Chinese teams got knocked out of MDL, and no Chinese team has won a tournament yet in 6.84?
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On June 06 2015 03:30 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 03:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:22 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:14 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games. Even ignoring D2L, these are EG's results in the two months before DAC: 4th at BTS 2 3rd/4th at Dota Pit Basically everyone on EG said that this was EG's worst period. That's why the roster change occurred. They were definitely not > everyone else late 2014. EG's results post TI4 up to DAC: 1st WEC 2nd ESL One 1st Starladder 9 1st DreamLeague 4th Summit 4th DotaPit 3rd D2L Name one team with better results than them. Oh wait, that would be VG. I don't think you understand the difference between 'EG and VG had the best results among Western teams after TI 4' and 'EG and VG were above everyone else after TI 4.' In any given period, there's a ranking of teams according to results, and two teams at the top of that ranking. This is a straw man. Yes, the two teams that won almost every premier and major tournament from post-TI4 to DAC were not, in fact, ahead of everyone else post-TI4 to DAC. Classic Azarkon logic. What are you even trying to argue? VG and EG had the best results in this six-month period and that explains why Secret 15-0'd DAC group stages and destroyed every Chinese team other than VG?
No, I said it's the same 3-4 teams doing well, with region being irrelevant.
Secret stepped it up late 2014, Newbee collapsed quite incredibly. And VG, EG, C9 are still top teams.
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On June 06 2015 03:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 03:30 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:22 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:14 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games. Even ignoring D2L, these are EG's results in the two months before DAC: 4th at BTS 2 3rd/4th at Dota Pit Basically everyone on EG said that this was EG's worst period. That's why the roster change occurred. They were definitely not > everyone else late 2014. EG's results post TI4 up to DAC: 1st WEC 2nd ESL One 1st Starladder 9 1st DreamLeague 4th Summit 4th DotaPit 3rd D2L Name one team with better results than them. Oh wait, that would be VG. I don't think you understand the difference between 'EG and VG had the best results among Western teams after TI 4' and 'EG and VG were above everyone else after TI 4.' In any given period, there's a ranking of teams according to results, and two teams at the top of that ranking. This is a straw man. Yes, the two teams that won almost every premier and major tournament from post-TI4 to DAC were not, in fact, ahead of everyone else post-TI4 to DAC. Classic Azarkon logic. What are you even trying to argue? VG and EG had the best results in this six-month period and that explains why Secret 15-0'd DAC group stages and destroyed every Chinese team other than VG? No, I said it's the same 3-4 teams doing well, with region being irrelevant. Secret stepped it up late 2014, Newbee collapsed quite incredibly. And VG, EG, C9 are still top teams.
Except it's not the same 3-4 teams doing well.
The same 3-4 teams doing well would be Alliance and Na'Vi still being at the top of the scene, VG being as irrelevant as they were before TI 4, and Fear still without a major championship in Dota 2. It'd be DK and EG never rising, IG never falling, Malaysian/Singaporean teams at the top of SEA, and Newbee never winning a TI.
Team-based analyses have little value to me because they are completely incapable of explaining, for example, TI 4 results, where VG and Newbee - two teams everyone considered below DK, iG, and EG - took top 2. They're completely incapable of explaining why Chinese teams have won 0/4 tournaments after patch 6.84. They're completely useless for trying to think about why the West crumbled during TI 2 and during TI 4, and why China failed to make top 3 in TI 3.
Regional analyses is stable. It's not 100% accurate but it tells you what's coming. It allows you to make safe separations of tiers - for example SEA never winning a TI regardless of how they shuffle. It gives you an idea of how well a team from one region is going to do vs. a team from another region regardless of whether they've faced each other before.
It's why I was able to call Chinese Dota falling in TI 3, SEA Dota never rising, and Korean Dota rising in its place.
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You are willfully misinterpreting his point
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On June 06 2015 03:44 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 03:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:30 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:22 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:14 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games. Even ignoring D2L, these are EG's results in the two months before DAC: 4th at BTS 2 3rd/4th at Dota Pit Basically everyone on EG said that this was EG's worst period. That's why the roster change occurred. They were definitely not > everyone else late 2014. EG's results post TI4 up to DAC: 1st WEC 2nd ESL One 1st Starladder 9 1st DreamLeague 4th Summit 4th DotaPit 3rd D2L Name one team with better results than them. Oh wait, that would be VG. I don't think you understand the difference between 'EG and VG had the best results among Western teams after TI 4' and 'EG and VG were above everyone else after TI 4.' In any given period, there's a ranking of teams according to results, and two teams at the top of that ranking. This is a straw man. Yes, the two teams that won almost every premier and major tournament from post-TI4 to DAC were not, in fact, ahead of everyone else post-TI4 to DAC. Classic Azarkon logic. What are you even trying to argue? VG and EG had the best results in this six-month period and that explains why Secret 15-0'd DAC group stages and destroyed every Chinese team other than VG? No, I said it's the same 3-4 teams doing well, with region being irrelevant. Secret stepped it up late 2014, Newbee collapsed quite incredibly. And VG, EG, C9 are still top teams. Except it's not the same 3-4 teams doing well. The same 3-4 teams doing well would be Alliance and Na'Vi still being at the top of the scene, VG being as irrelevant as they were before TI 4, and Fear still without a major championship in Dota 2. It'd be DK and EG never rising, IG never falling, Malaysian/Singaporean teams at the top of SEA, and Newbee never winning a TI. Team-based analyses have little value to me because they are completely incapable of explaining, for example, TI 4 results, where VG and Newbee - two teams everyone considered below DK, iG, and EG - took top 2. They're completely incapable of explaining why Chinese teams have won 0/4 tournaments after patch 6.84. They're completely useless for trying to think about why the West crumbled during TI 2 and during TI 4, and why China failed to make top 3 in TI 3.
Lol Alliance and Na'vi what the fuck.
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On June 06 2015 03:51 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 03:44 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:30 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:22 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:14 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games. Even ignoring D2L, these are EG's results in the two months before DAC: 4th at BTS 2 3rd/4th at Dota Pit Basically everyone on EG said that this was EG's worst period. That's why the roster change occurred. They were definitely not > everyone else late 2014. EG's results post TI4 up to DAC: 1st WEC 2nd ESL One 1st Starladder 9 1st DreamLeague 4th Summit 4th DotaPit 3rd D2L Name one team with better results than them. Oh wait, that would be VG. I don't think you understand the difference between 'EG and VG had the best results among Western teams after TI 4' and 'EG and VG were above everyone else after TI 4.' In any given period, there's a ranking of teams according to results, and two teams at the top of that ranking. This is a straw man. Yes, the two teams that won almost every premier and major tournament from post-TI4 to DAC were not, in fact, ahead of everyone else post-TI4 to DAC. Classic Azarkon logic. What are you even trying to argue? VG and EG had the best results in this six-month period and that explains why Secret 15-0'd DAC group stages and destroyed every Chinese team other than VG? No, I said it's the same 3-4 teams doing well, with region being irrelevant. Secret stepped it up late 2014, Newbee collapsed quite incredibly. And VG, EG, C9 are still top teams. Except it's not the same 3-4 teams doing well. The same 3-4 teams doing well would be Alliance and Na'Vi still being at the top of the scene, VG being as irrelevant as they were before TI 4, and Fear still without a major championship in Dota 2. It'd be DK and EG never rising, IG never falling, Malaysian/Singaporean teams at the top of SEA, and Newbee never winning a TI. Team-based analyses have little value to me because they are completely incapable of explaining, for example, TI 4 results, where VG and Newbee - two teams everyone considered below DK, iG, and EG - took top 2. They're completely incapable of explaining why Chinese teams have won 0/4 tournaments after patch 6.84. They're completely useless for trying to think about why the West crumbled during TI 2 and during TI 4, and why China failed to make top 3 in TI 3. Lol Alliance and Na'vi what the fuck.
Two years ago, Alliance, Na'Vi, and Orange/Tongfu were the three best teams up to the end of 2013.
At the start of 2014, EG, DK, and IG became the three best teams, which lasted till TI 4.
At TI 4, Newbee, VG, and EG became the three best teams, which lasted till DAC.
At DAC, Secret, VG, and EG were the three best teams, and this is the present top 3 ranking, except you have to put Empire alongside EG.
The longest a team has stayed in the top 3 is 1.5 years - EG - and Na'Vi in case you want to go back to 2012. Every other team went out of the rotation in <1 year.
It's not the 'same 3-4 teams doing well.' It's a different set of 3 teams every year.
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On June 06 2015 04:26 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 03:51 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:44 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:30 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:22 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 06 2015 03:14 Azarkon wrote:On June 06 2015 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
No they werent rofl
find me another tournament with BASELINE 30% packet loss EVERY GAME spiking higher most games. Even ignoring D2L, these are EG's results in the two months before DAC: 4th at BTS 2 3rd/4th at Dota Pit Basically everyone on EG said that this was EG's worst period. That's why the roster change occurred. They were definitely not > everyone else late 2014. EG's results post TI4 up to DAC: 1st WEC 2nd ESL One 1st Starladder 9 1st DreamLeague 4th Summit 4th DotaPit 3rd D2L Name one team with better results than them. Oh wait, that would be VG. I don't think you understand the difference between 'EG and VG had the best results among Western teams after TI 4' and 'EG and VG were above everyone else after TI 4.' In any given period, there's a ranking of teams according to results, and two teams at the top of that ranking. This is a straw man. Yes, the two teams that won almost every premier and major tournament from post-TI4 to DAC were not, in fact, ahead of everyone else post-TI4 to DAC. Classic Azarkon logic. What are you even trying to argue? VG and EG had the best results in this six-month period and that explains why Secret 15-0'd DAC group stages and destroyed every Chinese team other than VG? No, I said it's the same 3-4 teams doing well, with region being irrelevant. Secret stepped it up late 2014, Newbee collapsed quite incredibly. And VG, EG, C9 are still top teams. Except it's not the same 3-4 teams doing well. The same 3-4 teams doing well would be Alliance and Na'Vi still being at the top of the scene, VG being as irrelevant as they were before TI 4, and Fear still without a major championship in Dota 2. It'd be DK and EG never rising, IG never falling, Malaysian/Singaporean teams at the top of SEA, and Newbee never winning a TI. Team-based analyses have little value to me because they are completely incapable of explaining, for example, TI 4 results, where VG and Newbee - two teams everyone considered below DK, iG, and EG - took top 2. They're completely incapable of explaining why Chinese teams have won 0/4 tournaments after patch 6.84. They're completely useless for trying to think about why the West crumbled during TI 2 and during TI 4, and why China failed to make top 3 in TI 3. Lol Alliance and Na'vi what the fuck. Two years ago, Alliance, Na'Vi, and Orange/Tongfu were the three best teams up to the end of 2013. At the start of 2014, EG, DK, and IG became the three best teams, which lasted till TI 4. At TI 4, Newbee, VG, and EG became the three best teams, which lasted till DAC. At DAC, Secret, VG, and EG were the three best teams, and this is the present top 3 ranking, except you have to put Empire alongside EG. The longest a team has stayed in the top 3 is 1.5 years - EG - and Na'Vi in case you want to go back to 2012. Every other team went out of the rotation in <1 year. It's not the 'same 3-4 teams doing well.' It's a different set of 3 teams every year.
Actually you have to put Empire over EG because last time they met Empire beat them
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Were any of the games close? VG and Secret were pretty clear favorites but how did C9/ig and Empire/Lgd look?
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EPT
