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Please do not derail the thread with discussions or accusations of racism.
Throwaway caster bashing posts will also be actioned.
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On July 22 2014 06:35 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
all i have to say is that as a c9 fan, if c9 had won the finals in the same manner as newbee vs vg, my response would've been "nice, but that wasn't very anime" same if they had won against eg the way vici did.
anime demands interesting drafts and plot twists and tension, being a c9 fan is not about just c9 winning, its about c9 winning animestyle
TunA you're the best
tbh I would have just been screaming for them to 3-0 as fast as possible
Also I desperately hope that the next major patch will add alot of the heroes to CM and give us back some 70+ minute games atleast from the chinese but we'll see v.v
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On July 22 2014 06:49 Bam Lee wrote:
My conclusion of TI4 is:
Stick to the old format. I mean you can change the venue and go to a bigger one, but please....Use last years format. Had way more fun watching that
Overall it was a pretty nice event. Had some fun games in it, finals were a bit lackluster after the 2nd game due to the lack of excitement but i guess shit happens.
Also wish for a better analyst desk and fix some minor stream issues.
Still crying a bit for DK but well....Newbee definitely deserved that title.
See ya guys next year! Or for the next major event
I prefer this format, BO1 in the mainstage is stupid and no one can argue that this years groupstage is way better than last years. The problem for me is:
1) the scheduling hopefully valve can avoid the monday grandfinals and split bo1s, I also don't agree with finishing winners bracket in one go in that respect TI3 is better.
2) the production was worse this year I get that they want to reward hard work but sheever/bruno are not really good for the analyst desk and pyrion/shane are no where near as good as purge/sunsfan for the noob stream.
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Baa?21242 Posts
This was the best TI, 10/10.
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On July 22 2014 06:56 PotatoFury wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 06:49 Bam Lee wrote:
My conclusion of TI4 is:
Stick to the old format. I mean you can change the venue and go to a bigger one, but please....Use last years format. Had way more fun watching that
Overall it was a pretty nice event. Had some fun games in it, finals were a bit lackluster after the 2nd game due to the lack of excitement but i guess shit happens.
Also wish for a better analyst desk and fix some minor stream issues.
Still crying a bit for DK but well....Newbee definitely deserved that title.
See ya guys next year! Or for the next major event I prefer this format, BO1 in the mainstage is stupid and no one can argue that this years groupstage is way better than last years. The problem for me is: 1) the scheduling hopefully valve can avoid the monday grandfinals and split bo1s, I also don't agree with finishing winners bracket in one go in that respect TI3 is better. 2) the production was worse this year I get that they want to reward hard work but sheever/bruno are not really good for the analyst desk and pyrion/shane are no where near as good as purge/sunsfan for the noob stream.
Ti3 also split bo3's
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Countdown:
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 22 2014 06:51 Bam Lee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 06:50 DucK- wrote:On July 22 2014 06:40 Belisarius wrote:
Just got back from a pubstomp. Wow that was awful.
It really feels like VG never actually changed, they just go up and down on the strength of their one trick. They had a run because their trick happened to be in a strong cycle as TI started, and NB figured it out and just embarassed them.
Also this #1 prophet crap is... crap. Its not that their trick got figured out. To be honest they wasn't even using their old trick. That's because the whole approach to the draft was different. This was a tunnel vision draft where vici was like let's pick mass summons with prophet and force the push, rather than 1) hmm they have weak lanes and anti deathball so let's punish with a pugna/dk/prophet pick, or 2) hmm there's no opening for our push strategy, so we need to pick a harder carry and play standard. Wonder if they were stubborn or they werent very confident from scrims against newbee. Guess we will never know
they went 20% in their scrims against newbee, i get the impression this hyperpush is a new strat
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The round-robin groupstage was great.
The mainstage format was weird, and they definitely shouldn't have cleared the winner's bracket so early. The first VG v. NB set was one of the most important matches in the tournament, and it kind of just... happened... before anyone really realised what was going on.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
PR vs Reality
Liquid - 16 Arrow
Arrow - 15 Nar'VI
Nar'Vi = 14 Fnatic
Fnatic = 13 Empire
Titan = 12 Alliance
Empire 11 Mouz
C9 = 10 Liquid
LGD = 9 Titan
Navi = 8 Navi
VG = 7 iG
Mouz = 6 Cloud 9
Alliance = 5 LGD
Newbee = 4 DK
EG = 3 EG
DK = 2 VG
iG = 1 Newbee
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So what about the afterparty webcam? :D What stream will it be on?
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On July 22 2014 06:50 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 06:40 Belisarius wrote:
Just got back from a pubstomp. Wow that was awful.
It really feels like VG never actually changed, they just go up and down on the strength of their one trick. They had a run because their trick happened to be in a strong cycle as TI started, and NB figured it out and just embarassed them.
Also this #1 prophet crap is... crap. Its not that their trick got figured out. To be honest they wasn't even using their old trick. That's because the whole approach to the draft was different. This was a tunnel vision draft where vici was like let's pick mass summons with prophet and force the push, rather than 1) hmm they have weak lanes and anti deathball so let's punish with a pugna/dk/prophet pick, or 2) hmm there's no opening for our push strategy, so we need to pick a harder carry and play standard.
they tried to play standard in game 2. go and tell in my face that Viper, SK and Skywrath are deathball pushing heroes, dare you. They got Sylar's best hero on top of that and still lost because Mu didn't mess on his signature Panda. Game 3 could've gone either way, but Newbee's rotations were better than VG's early game execution. Game 4 was the only one that was lost at drafting stage.
DP was banned every game. Pugna was banned in all games Newbee won, DK got banned in third.
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Only thing I would have changed would be to not have winners bracket decided the first day. Would have built up more suspense about who would be in the final.
Besides that I truly enjoyed the event while there, even had a good time waiting in the secret shop line for 3hours due to the great people and all the big screens and speakers set up so we could still see the games.
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On July 22 2014 06:52 Khylol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 06:35 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
all i have to say is that as a c9 fan, if c9 had won the finals in the same manner as newbee vs vg, my response would've been "nice, but that wasn't very anime" same if they had won against eg the way vici did.
anime demands interesting drafts and plot twists and tension, being a c9 fan is not about just c9 winning, its about c9 winning animestyle TunA you're the best tbh I would have just been screaming for them to 3-0 as fast as possible Also I desperately hope that the next major patch will add alot of the heroes to CM and give us back some 70+ minute games atleast from the chinese but we'll see v.v
i wouldn't have minded a 3-0 stomp if it were 3 clever (hopefully different) outdrafts of vici's typical style, but 3 newbee-style outdrafts of vici deciding inexplicably that aa+veno+furion=thebest just wasn't very fun to watch, especially since i actually watched a lot of chinese dota in the past few months (where newbee vs vg games looked quite similar, maybe with vg even putting up more of a fight)
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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The format was really shitty this year. After the first day you already knew 2 of the 3 top teams, kind of killed the hype for me.
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Will it be placed on the calendar so we don't miss it? Or is it not really considered a Dota 2 event?
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On July 22 2014 06:38 Evander Berry Wall wrote:
This was the best TI thus far, overall. It was far more competitive than the past ones, which means more surprises and more interesting matches. The meta was wide open, more heroes were picked, some frequently picked heroes came out of no where (Skywrath), and none of the frequently picked heroes were dominant in their win rates. Even though they ultimately lost the finals, VG was probably the highest performing team, and who expected that? On the other hand, the worst team, Arrow, still gave us some awesome moments with DDZ's daunting Invoker play.
TI3 was basically a contest between Alliance and Na'Vi to see who was better at using Batrider, Wisp, and Visage. Orange is the only team that added any spice to that. People are people nostalgic about shit that never happened. It's saudade.
EDIT: I said best TI4 >_>
Strongly disagree.
Using only 1 strat 3 times in a row in the grand finals loosing all 3 games was horrible. It also speaks volumes to me about how the top teams (because the top teams were in the finals, right?) view the current state of the game. Apparently that one strat was deemed so good that no other strat was valid to even atempt. Newbie just happened to be better at said strat (they also fielded early game fight). The fact that split push, anti push or greed was not even attempted in the finals tells me that the top teams doesn't view either of these as a valid strat at the moment.
So, no, this was not the best TI ever, it was not the best Esports tournament ever. The only thing it was the best at was prize pool money.
This was not Newbee or VGs fault however. They just did the best to win, and if one strat is that much stronger you field it over and over hoping to get the better execution (Newbee clearly was superior there). If VG had fielded anything else they would just had lost just as hard if not harder to the same early game fight oriented style of Newbee. The games might have been slightly longer but the outcome would have been just as assured. This is what was shown by the other games of the tournament where teams with great skill and teamwork beat their heads bloody (and got eliminated) against that strat. The better at drafting and executing the face rush early game strats would win this finals.
This is what made the finals one sided and the tournament loose hype. And this is Icefrogs fault (or Valve if you want), noone elses. They absolutely hated the split push style of last year that created the best tournament ever and nerfed it to oblivion, and they got just what they wanted (deserver?) this year.
In contrast to this last years TI saw multiple different strats being used, even in the grand finals. And of corse that back and forth final game as the icing of the cake. I became a fan of Alliance after that tournament because of how they played. Before I was more leaning towards Navi. The Alliance style was never pure split push, that was the last resort when all else failed in a game. They won many games much earlier with little to no split pushing. Navi finals as TI1 when they were all about the face rush style (like this year) also showed that they could do more. When the chinese team at TI1 finals beat the Navi face rush style in the finals, Navi picked a late game strat and won (up until that point considered impossible for a western team against a chinese). This makes both these finals a lot better. More than 1 strat was valid and used. (TI2 I didn't see much of so can't say)
Lastly, the format this year was a mess. It's good that there was no bo1 elimination matches (altho tie breakers?) but the rest was just a step back. I don't know why formats have to be reinvented every year in Esports. It's like you find something that almost works (TI3) and then you disregard it all and start completely over (TI4) instead of just fixing what didn't work (bo1 elim, too little benefit for finishing first in groups) from the TI3 format. I much more enjoyed watching two groups with bo2 matches than the chaos of this year, with the infinite number of ways the group stage could unfold (you had to be a math professor to keep it all straight=not specatator friendly).
Anyways, that's my few cents on this tournament. Hopefully things will shape up again next year.
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Congrats to NB, well deserved.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 22 2014 07:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:Will it be placed on the calendar so we don't miss it? Or is it not really considered a Dota 2 event?
probably not
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@Ohforfsake.
1st game: Newbee went for greedy draft, Vici punished it with deathball push.
2nd game: both teams went for early teamfight with strong late game tri-core lineups.
3rd game: both teams went for early lane domination with late game duo-core lineups.
4th game: rOtk lost the draft after he picked up Weaver.
People just look that same heroes were played and don't realise every game aside from last was great and had a different approach. The problem is that the only team that could've beaten Newbee at full force in Seattle was DK, and rOtk showed no mercy to them, because xiao8 has no draft advantage against them.
BurNing can play Weaver and Naga, LaNm can play Enigma, Ench and Kunkka, Dai can play Visage and Lion, iceiceice can play Tide, Invoker, Timber, Nyx and Void, Mushi can play OD, Puck, TA, SF and so on = all those heroes haven't been contested by Vici at all.
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EPT
