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*on mobile* So i have another thread thats about my climb from 500 mmr to 2.5k. The purpose of that thread ended so i need some help with some new problems.
I have been increasingly interested in the pro scene. Dota is quickly becoming part of my everday life and i love it.what i dont love is that when i play, the skill gap is obviously huge compared to pros. My issue is that i am becoming used to seeing pretty solid chainstunning, follow-up initiations, decision making, etc that you see at the highlevel of play, and i see people say to watch pros and imitate them. Well, im starting to realize that (when more than 1 person is involved) its hard to do it properly. Stuns are overlapped, no one pushes on 5 man wipes, the slardar blink stuns 3 while the rest of your team watches you die after, and alot of stuff like that.
So, should i play the way that pros play ( the right way) or should i be selfish and not trust teammates on teammwork related things. It is very clear to me that in my current mmr, trusting others ( especially to fucking follow up on initiations) is not usuallly a good choice. Doing this leads to bad habits later on, however. So LD, for my first question of this new thread, what should i do?
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I doubt that Slardar made the proper judgement before he went. If you're moving as a group of 5, obviously looking for a kill, and he gets a 3man crush I really doubt there wont be any follow up. That would be extremely strange. Whats way way way more common though is for Slardar to be looking for a fight in his own mind, see an opportunity to stun 3 people, do it, and then proceed to die because his team wasnt close. Or he only had 1 team mate around. Or something. That happens aaaaaaaaaall the time. People struggle with that at 3k, 5k and 6k too.
I remember one instance particularly when I was very new to the game. We were kinda winning and me and a team mate were standing around where thier T2 tower had been. He pings an enemy standing just below the T3 tower. "Go", he wanted. I look around and see no other team mate close, and we have vision of exactly that one enemy and no one else. I even type a quick "2v5" in chat (assuming the other 4 were on their highground close to the visible person). More pinging. And he goes. I ditch him and he dies. I type something like "cant go, it was 2v5". Eventually I obviously got blamed by him for his death.
My point kinda is that while it might seem like a trust issue, it often is just bad judgement. It might seem like a selfish move to not follow up on a 3man stun, but if you were outnumbered or had no vision of where Slardar was blinking, it might be the correct thing to do to ditch him. And well, sometimes you just dont have the heroes for good followup either.
If you're moving as a team of 5 i doubt that happens. If you're moving in a group of 2 or 3, prepare to ditch him if he goes way too deep.
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On June 16 2016 15:56 Kreb wrote: I doubt that Slardar made the proper judgement before he went. If you're moving as a group of 5, obviously looking for a kill, and he gets a 3man crush I really doubt there wont be any follow up. That would be extremely strange. Whats way way way more common though is for Slardar to be looking for a fight in his own mind, see an opportunity to stun 3 people, do it, and then proceed to die because his team wasnt close. Or he only had 1 team mate around. Or something. That happens aaaaaaaaaall the time. People struggle with that at 3k, 5k and 6k too.
I remember one instance particularly when I was very new to the game. We were kinda winning and me and a team mate were standing around where thier T2 tower had been. He pings an enemy standing just below the T3 tower. "Go", he wanted. I look around and see no other team mate close, and we have vision of exactly that one enemy and no one else. I even type a quick "2v5" in chat (assuming the other 4 were on their highground close to the visible person). More pinging. And he goes. I ditch him and he dies. I type something like "cant go, it was 2v5". Eventually I obviously got blamed by him for his death.
My point kinda is that while it might seem like a trust issue, it often is just bad judgement. It might seem like a selfish move to not follow up on a 3man stun, but if you were outnumbered or had no vision of where Slardar was blinking, it might be the correct thing to do to ditch him. And well, sometimes you just dont have the heroes for good followup either.
If you're moving as a team of 5 i doubt that happens. If you're moving in a group of 2 or 3, prepare to ditch him if he goes way too deep.
Ok fair enough. He wasnt on my team. I was actually one of the 3 that he initiated on and it was a really good initiation imo. He had an ember and lion backing him up and nobody followed up even when they were right there. It felt like a triplekill for them to me but they just walked away and left thhe slardar out to die.
Past that, i have a game i played yesterday where I had alot of massive mistakes, but the main thing was if i should fight as much as i did or farm more.
2441166139. Avg mmr was like 2.4k i think
I was the void with the wd in lane. We had an easy lane so i went midas, but our offlane that requested solo fed the pa. I planned to farm up with the midas pick but the constant fighting made it difficult for me. My farm is way too low and i need to work on farming in battle-heavy games ( but thats another problem). Can anyone watch the first 15vminutes or so to see if i made the right choice to fight? The ET told me to stop being a pussy and constantly fight which was a pain in the ass and i never muted him which was a huge mistake in hindsight..
Edit: I had a few very poor chrono's Where i miscklicked/ had poor judgement on timings so that is obviously a problem of mine.
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On June 16 2016 13:01 Parkplayground wrote: So, should i play the way that pros play ( the right way) or should i be selfish and not trust teammates on teammwork related things.
Neither.
You should watch pro and take what's good in their play, but also remember that 5 random people that never met each other, most without microphones or the will to communicate, will not act as a team.
So, you must embrace the "pub reality", and play like a pub. Therefore, not copy-cat everything that pros do, because it doesn't work in a disorganized environment.
Also, my personnal way of doing it is : just instantly mute anyone blaming/flaming/crying, do not even answer, instant mute. Do not argue about anything, ever. Do not argue about anything, ever (yes, 2 times, because it's key). Put "well played" when your team scores a kill. Buy wards and place them if you feel you need vision (you always need vision), and if your support is not doing it. And trust the non-muted players to, if not acting like pro do, at least trying to win (even when they make mistakes, everyone makes mistakes).
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It's probably best to practice communication but not to rely on it/expect coordination (get a group if you really want to coordinate). I'm bad at both.
If you want to win, then you'll probably have to make things happen yourself.
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please don't refer to yourself or your play as trash. it works in two ways; it is mentally limiting yourself even if only a smidgen, and it becomes an obnoxious comparison for both you and your peers.
consider the gameplay this way for a moment: batrider lasso's a target but in a pub you can't really talk about how far he will pull the target just as the invoker is trying to land a sunstrike. those brief moments in time make or break a game as well as what heroes are possible to combo or even play reliably in pubs.
which is why you need to take the extra step and help coordinate the team. if you don't want to do that, then you should expect to play more selfish and focus on item timings and taking more calculated risks such as not going for a kill unless it is guaranteed and within your immediate ability.
doing a three man crush doesn't mean it was a good time to do so. maybe you shouldn't even be there in the first place trying to scout for kills. if one main core isn't there for a main push for example, you simply can't take the fight and blame him afterwards. it's everybody's responsibility to make sure that the core is there and present.
the main mistake i see players make, and we're not even talking about anything even close to pro level, is showing yourself to the creeps in lane when you shouldn't.
focusing on item timings means that you're getting them with reasonable speed, and doing everything your team will need you to do for the game to not snowball in the other direction from an early point in the game. if you cannot reliably do that, you need to make sure your team is at least somewhat aware. tell your safelane you cannot gank from mid, and to hold out until a certain time--to walk into jungle, adjust their play, buy an iron talon or a morbid mask, anything, but get them to avoid feeding or wasting large amounts of time.
let's say for example you have a sniper and they have a good ganking set of heroes like nyx. there are only a few plays your sniper can make involving easy teamfights and rushing something like a shadowblade. the reasoning is that he won't be able to farm jungle either reliably or well, and lanes without towers or without tp-supports are unsafe to farm. in other words, sniper in that game is not useful unless he snowballs constantly to the point that he's all caught up. so you tell him. rush a shadowblade. don't farm here. and you set aside little bits of farm for him and coerce the player into taking easy teamfights with you. if the nyx isn't taking advantage of things or being successful, by all means play normally, but you still need to make that assessment quite early. this requires paying attention to more things than yourself.
the alternative to all that is just ignoring your sniper's progression and using him as bait for turning around ganks, or using him as a lightning pole so that you and the rest of your team get more out of the time they spent dog-piling on an otherwise useless hero.
but this is all contrary to the idea of just playing and fixing your own decision making. you don't need to combo, you don't need pro-levels of farm. you just need to do alright, and your opponents will make lots of mistakes that you'll learn to take advantage of. and i recommend that more than i do focusing on the little things that will invariably tilt you if they don't go your way.
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You need to understand the difference between 4 randoms + you playing the game rather than 5 competitive players knowing exactly how to interacting with each other. In a public environment you need to adept, knowing that people will not follow up if they didn't agree to do it before it happens. This includes EVERYTHING: Tower defense, TPs, fights, initiations, pulls stacks ... and so on. Making the "right play" in a pub will not let you win it. You need to learn how to differ between making the "right play" and making the play that wins you the game. The hardest thing is to make the 4 randoms believe your decisions are the right one. If you believe you are skilled enough to win games on your won, rely only on that skill and try to push it to the limit. It will hurt you one day if you plan on going competitive, but if you dont its the right and only approach.
PS: Its funny because I was talking two days ago on my stream about the exact same topic (Matter was TP responses which would be the "right play" in a competitive game but straight up wrong in a pub)
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On June 18 2016 07:06 nanaoei wrote: but this is all contrary to the idea of just playing and fixing your own decision making. you don't need to combo, you don't need pro-levels of farm. you just need to do alright, and your opponents will make lots of mistakes that you'll learn to take advantage of. and i recommend that more than i do focusing on the little things that will invariably tilt you if they don't go your way.
Shouldnt i hold myself to the highest of standards for the best improvement possible? This is more of a rule for everything and not just dota for me as well, but for dota ( where success is honestly much more easily attainable than my other aspirations) i truly want to be playing competitively. Not anytime soon, and not at a pro level, but i just enjoy it so much that i want to be involved with it. Doing alright just isnt ok for me. It is what usually ends up happening. But im just not content with it. Maybe i should make it more clear that ive determined that my progression isnt just to have some casual fun, but to actually make significant progress.
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if you're serious serious then you should just watch replays for 5 hours/day probably
or personally i would pay for a few coaching games
if you can find an account booster from this patch with replays (or stream) to watch then that would be pretty cool let me know if you do i watched an account booster at 2-3k during the troll patch and he could win like 20 games in a row without breaking a sweat, it was pretty crazy i think the main thing i learnt was to pick mid heroes that can singlehandedly win a game and that my job every game is to farm 1-2 item advantage over the opponent after that i went treads orchid bkb heart/satanic deso on qop and won like 10 games in a row the stress is a bit much for me tho tbh lol . altho you get used to it if you keep playing now i just go blink dagger on qop and do whatever LOL
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if u are good, you can first pick alch your way to 5k with a 80% winrate, im sure, assuming ofc you are better than your mmr bracket in terms of game understanding and positioning, alch is the hero to climb mmr for sure
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I think you really have to choose your goal well, is it fun games or tryharding? Those are not mutually exclusive but if you choose the tryhard path I think there is a fastest way than just spamming pubs, though I have not tried it in dota 2 but it should be close to other games. Practice last hitting, farming patterns, how do you clear creepwaves (this one actually changed a bit with int boosting nukes), 1v1 against better players, have a team, study replays (your own and better players), ask for help, get coached, etc Any combination of these you like.
If you choose the fun path, learn to identify when you're tilting (hint : focusing on mates' mistakes is a big red flag), try your best and focus on your own plays. Also one big thing is to distinguish when you're playing well and your team lose and when you're playing terribly but your mates carry you (and this far from just looking at KDA, gpm and xpm)
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Mechanics aside you can probably win the majority of your games through independent decision making. If you watch high level streamers they rarely take bad fights and they always capitalize on their strength opportunities. They proactively buy their own smokes, wards, whatever they need to do what they plan on doing. They arrive to clean up fights. You can do this from any position.
Avoid blaming other people's decision making, there's always something you can do yourself.
There are so many decisions in dota, that's where the easiest mental fixes are
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Some questions / mindsets that have helped me improve are the following:
1.) Watching a pro game: Try your best to understand why a player makes a particular play, what the purpose of a skill build or item pickup is, what makes a draft pickup strong or weak in a given scenario. What are each of the teams 'win conditions.' Why did one of them fail? Debate it with your dota friends. If you understand the why's, you can start to move from imitating the pros to making your own context-dependent decisions. When you understand why, you understand what can & can't be applied to a pub game.
2.) Watch a skilled streamer that explains their decision making process and talks about the game in general. I don't care how good sumail is, he doesn't say a damn thing and so is useless to me as a streamer. I'd rather watch wagamamma. Waga's still better than I'll ever be and provides solid reasoning.
3.) In your own games: Watch your own replays. Try to avoid blaming your teammates (internally, at least ) for game outcomes. For your losses, consider what you could have done to change the outcome of the game....what were the critical turning points in the game?
For your wins, pay attention to your deaths, and position in team fights. I recently played a gigantic Slark stomp where I was so far ahead it almost didn't matter what I did. I reviewed the replay and realized my item build was very sub-optimal for the game, and that I died twice because of it. We lost a huge team fight mid-game because of my decisions and it made the game take a good 10-20 minutes longer...and if we hadn't been so far ahead the fight might have turned the game around. Your wins can be important sources of information too...if you just assume that you won because you played godly, it reinforces bad habits and incorrect thinking.
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Ok so to clarify ill just give a rundown of what i do for dota-related stuff. - watch coaching sessions for all mmr points and all positions every day for probably 3-5 hours. I have personally found ecko to be the best coach and ive covered roughly 90% of his videos in a few weeks. Im considering contacting him.
-watch pro games of teeams i like or of lineups that interest me ( i follow col since they are my favorite team)
-watch pro gameplay of heroes im interested in/ play to see the difference between me and a great player ( Im looking for someone with my playstyle but i need to have a more defined playstyle i think first).
-find guides on positions/lanes/strategy/etc . like chaqs mid guide or goo's mid guide or LD's very own guide to support written by that io up above me.
- play 10 minutes in a lobby to warm up/practice csing with sf every time i play (usually just long enough to warm up)
-if i have some time and im feeling the grind, ill go into a lobby and have 2-3 sessions of trying to keep perfect llane equilibrium/cs on the safelane. Then ill jump into solo q
-play alot
-im on a team thats made up of irl friends that have their own way of playing dota so im going to make a new team and play with some handpickdd people i find (so far its just past the idea stage)
-play in ad2l lobbies whenever i can which was super fun and a great way to play above my skill level.
Things i dont do:
-watch my own replays often. I do occasionally but for some reason i struggle with self critique on replays since i recognize mistakes in game and call myself out for them and watching replays just feel odd after. It really doesnt feel super effective but i realize it is. I never seem to find weaknesses in them past the ones i point out to myself in-game.
-make a list of self recognized weaknesses that will be a counterpoint for improvement. I have a gpogle docs set up to make a list but i havent playec since making it sp this should be ahelpful tool.
I also struggle with focus too much. Its more of a personal thing regarding some family problems but once im in college in the fall it should be gone.
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On June 18 2016 14:16 Parkplayground wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2016 07:06 nanaoei wrote: but this is all contrary to the idea of just playing and fixing your own decision making. you don't need to combo, you don't need pro-levels of farm. you just need to do alright, and your opponents will make lots of mistakes that you'll learn to take advantage of. and i recommend that more than i do focusing on the little things that will invariably tilt you if they don't go your way. Shouldnt i hold myself to the highest of standards for the best improvement possible? This is more of a rule for everything and not just dota for me as well, but for dota ( where success is honestly much more easily attainable than my other aspirations) i truly want to be playing competitively. Not anytime soon, and not at a pro level, but i just enjoy it so much that i want to be involved with it. Doing alright just isnt ok for me. It is what usually ends up happening. But im just not content with it. Maybe i should make it more clear that ive determined that my progression isnt just to have some casual fun, but to actually make significant progress.
here is the thing, playground, someone else's 'alright' isn't your alright. what i was attempting in my post was to consider perfect play which i've seen very few players achieve in even fewer games where it's present. it's where every decision and movement is extremely nuanced and contributes greatly to the bigger picture of the game.
that's just not realistic right now, and this applies even to pros on some of the best teams. you don't have to worry about learning from the best or watching the best, which you already know; you just need to improve steadily by comparing your frame of mind to a player whom you know plays well consistently. if you ask teammates for their opinions (your closest peers) they will give different ideas for what you should be doing. this is healthy for anyone doing this interaction for a number of reasons. first, it reveals mistakes in belief or style.
even if you don't actually think you'll be at the level you want any time soon, you can play as if you will. everyone is human, even the people you respect and look up to highly. why can't you do the same, right? because you totally can.
all i am saying is that you should try and focus on those very mistakes for yourself and worry for others only when you've reached a highly competitive level. you should not be able to get away with so many different things in overall low-skill/experience games. for example, getting away with a 10-minute blink dagger as slardar in the offlane against a strong duo or a tri-lane. you also need to be used to farming jungle from early levels and picking the right times to go back to lane.
"you just need to improve steadily by comparing your frame of mind to a player whom you know plays well consistently." by saying this, it could even stem from watching players you're laning against. if you deem that they picked a reasonable skill build, cs'd, and did all the proper things in lane against you, you only need to figure out what possibly could have been done differently to change the dynamic, to win even harder, and for you to apply it to different games and different matchups/situations.
it's really that simple of a mindset. focusing on getting better as quickly as possible is a form of losing focus in my opinion. of course, everybody feels this way when they feel the passion and want to get competitive, but it is the constant steps that get you there that matter. it's a team game and so your demeanor towards your random mates also matters. they are 100% not faultless, just as you notice your own mistakes. frankly, it gets frustrating, so you need to be able to tell yourself that you're doing okay, and ti come back later to improve those same things further. moving your skillset along for each aspect of playing gets cumulatively harder as you get more proficient and knowledgeable. it takes longer, it takes more, and specific situations to come out to even allow it. an all-around player can find fault and improvement in anything even as it happens. real-time adjustments, asking for small amounts of criticism.
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about some of the things you do daily with dota, i do some of that stuff too. like picking a hero, going to a singleplayer lane, visualizing what needs to be done, and taking mental notes about little specific things so i have something to think about and actively change in non-single-player games. i read via Ver. in the terrorblade thread that he can hit 12-15m PMS/QB/boots/aquila/yasha/radiance. cool. i started at 18, went down to 14, thought it was good enough and knew where to squeeze more. and honestly, it is more and better than you'll need in actual games. the practice is applicable to any hero making use of illusions to farm and it frankly opened more ideas about how to play out the safelane, so on and so forth.
frankly, you cannot focus on your strengths, because they may not exist the way you think/feel they do. as skill goes up, people play differently and play more properly. but it's not a steady climb. not for you, your teammates, nor your opponents. everyone just has so much to learn and so many mistakes to work on.
it does not have to be exhaustive as a written list about current weaknesses. one of the reasons why is because that will change and improve constantly. it gets redundant. you can remember all this stuff and write down the real problems. most of it is ingame mini-goals anyway. like zoning the offlaner, 60+cs by 10m, controlling runes, correctly predicting movements and spell usage from the other team, etc.
in other words, the highest standards technically don't even exist right now. the game will constantly change also, which means you need to be able to too. patch _____ so and so player, like badman and spectre translates to a very skewed way of playing.
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So ive thought it over and ive set a goal for 3k. Currently thats ~800 mmr which is incredibly doable, but i dont want to grind fotm heroes or heroes im very good at that usually leads to wins (slark/ember/ta/morph) since it is clear to me after playing in parties that my hero understanding and skill on them isdefinitely past 3k. I want my universal dota skills, and my hero variety ( which will lead to better conceptual understanding) to improve. Ive figured out how to grind mmr for myself and its great, but learning a new hero at a higher level of play usually ends up hurting me quite a bit it seems.
Right now, ive been working on my map awareness and FOW prediction skills. Im happy with my progress, but ive been having problems determining if the enemy is good enough to capitalize on my greedy positioning or not which causes me to second guess my initial thoughts on their positioning ( idk if that makes sense). I also just ignore my instincts which have been in reasingly correct on ganks and such which is another huge problem.
My laning is by far my stongest point. Ive played some 1v1 with 4ks and done alright (plus all the low mmr coaching sessions i watch basically talk about laning for 80% of the videos which helps me alot as well).
My weakest point is my mid and late game decisio. Making. Determining when to farm and when to fight(problem #1) and how to maintain my lead that i get from the laning stage (#2) are the things i feel are holding me back the most. If anyone can help me on something, please make it one of these two topics.
Imgoing to take this progression much more slowly since my gameplay when im tilted is 2.2k from what i can see. When im feeling fine its much better, but thistilt problem is faorly new and i just get salty so easily which is something i dont normally do as a person. Fixing tilt is definitely my #1. Problem holding me back but that is personal so im only mentioning this so people dont spend time talking about it/asking about it/ecplaining it to me.
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yeah adding on to what some people have already said, you should be adjusting your game to the standards of your teammates. continue to watch pros and what they do, this will teach you what the correct play is at the highest level and your understanding of the game will increase with this knowledge. however, there is no point executing this play if you know your teammates are not up to the standard to pull it off. a massive part of playing in pubs is being able to discern the skill level of your opponents and your teammates, to see what you can and cant do and figure out where you could cut corners and get away with it. its hard for a lower lvl player because people can only really determine how good a player is by comparing him/her to yourself, which probably doesnt set a high benchmark to start with. but this is the kind of mentality you need in pubs when the players you are playing with and against are unknown and communication is limited. also, be mindful of the fact that just because something is the 'right' play, doesnt mean it should always be executed. be particularly aware of what your team is doing and if they are in any position to follow up on what you are trying to do. if in theory a play is correct but in your particular game your team isnt ready, then its not the right play. this does develop a play style that is less trusting of your teammates as you mentioned, but there really isnt any other option unless you can consistently play with a stack that is good. there are pros that failed in the pro scene or took time to adjust because of their 'pub mentality'. the biggest name back in dota 1 was yaphets whilst in dota 2 id say w33 was an example of a pro who did a lot of pub-style plays during his debut stages. qo from mvp is also a strong example of someone who had to outgrow his pub-mentality ways there are also pros that have played with pros or similar level players for so long that they struggle in solo queue. it goes both ways
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edit: formatting because frankly reading these walls is even more of a huge fucking headache without it.
You want to hear what you want to hear, that's fine.
But for more specific advice, you'll probably need to attach replays/vods with a timestamp. Don't worry about what other people think, nobody cares about that crap.
If you're thinking on reaching for the stars, please don't put an incredible amount of weight on MMR and where you're at. For example, if you're comparing 2.2 to 3k, that's basically 50 games @60%win on the heroes you've been practicing in increasingly more difficult games.
What i can tell you right now about farming, ◆Know when waves spawn and where they generally are at any point in time so you aren't standing somewhere you don't need to be. 0:00, 0:30 as everyone knows, and in the first minutes creeps get a haste buff.
◆About 7 seconds for creeps to get from base to T2 at safelane radiant-side. - If the distance from the stairs to tower is around blink-dagger range, that's ~1200units. so less than 3kunits from there to spawn. Creeps are at 325units/s so it takes ~10s thereabouts for the creeps to reach it. But from what i've already told you (and something you can easily confirm from replays) it takes around 7 seconds for that travel so immediately this backwards math puts it at less than 3000 distance. You can make inferences like this all across a game and then make easier assessments based on stuff like that.
◆Radiant offlane creeps take around 18s to get to T1, it is called the long-lane for a different reason and this is only at the start of the game (after the first wave). - This means that the wave is slower for offlane and will meet a a smidge further than the river-line @bot, at top lane it will meet at the diagonal tree-line. - With a bad/non-existent radiant block and a good dire block at bottom lane, the wave meets right at river which is very important for the first level. they get to do stuff like aggro the wave off of right clicking heroes a short distance to tower and get an easy level 2. a good block is an important edge for higher level dota. People say DarkSeer wrecks safelane melee, but it's possible to zone him out on early levels and make it incredibly easy.
All you need to know is that after the initial 7 or 8 minutes, it takes 30 seconds for each lane of creeps to reach the corners of the map. Middle lane is different, shorter, and is always 20s to reach the very center of the map @river. So you know from that info., between T1 and T2 mid is half that time, or 10s. Side lanes are 15s for half, and 1 minute for the entire map-distance--important for pushes. You can keep halving to know exactly where the wave is and it becomes second nature.
Knowing this crap gives you an edge on illusion heroes or knowing how far you need to go and whether or not you just go to jungle instead of waiting for the next wave. The faster you clear the wave and get out, the better.
I often see the mistake of farming jungle when lane is free and safe.
There is more exp and money from lane than from single camps in the jungle. The jungle creeps will always be there, but doing camps instead of clearing waves is letting the lane go to waste. That is the reason why the rune-control game is very specific and is better on certain heroes (like alch, puck, etc) who clear and push the allied wave to the tower, then have time to stack/check runes before the next wave comes. Some heroes cannot afford to check runes in certain matchups or because they're ill-suited to it; so they are stuck in lane and you know it, meaning you can then do runes of your own or farm lane without contention every two waves.
All of this affects decision making all throughout the game and the reason why some players can squeeze more farm or why free-farm to the extent of what it can get you can be so scary (or not, if they suck). For example, if i see a DP not mid for a couple creep waves, i know that he is part of a smoke gank or that he is invis. This knowledge sets you up to prevent a number of situations, like dying to her solo, and there is counterplay to all of it.
- Warding her highground to spot for her moving to jungle and out of lane, - Warding runes to know that there is a possibility that it's a good rune she's got, - Or just playing off the map yourself and moving to jungle, with a TP in case she is rotating to a lane. It also allows you to obviously pressure the tower when you wouldn't be sure of it otherwise. This additonally opens up the possibility for mindgames at higher level games when both teams understand this dynamic and is also the reason why some pros play around this idea and farm jungle more than they do lane at certain phases. They do it because it is safer, efficient with their tool-kit, and makes the opponent have to react or think differently. If an alch expects his jungle to be contested, he can ask his team to set up a trap with more numbers, effectively reversing the situation.
Everything is linked together and is a battle of information and digesting it the right way. It's decision making in dota if you know how to react and procure a high-percentage play. Alternatively, it's bad decision-making when you know nothing, or if you're guessing. Missing creep waves for no reason, is bad decision-making for more than what is obvious.
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On June 22 2016 08:06 Parkplayground wrote: My weakest point is my mid and late game decisio. Making. Determining when to farm and when to fight(problem #1) and how to maintain my lead that i get from the laning stage (#2) are the things i feel are holding me back the most. If anyone can help me on something, please make it one of these two topics.
Remember that 90% of the mid and late game will be about maximizing farm, creating/avoiding pickoffs, tower pushes/Roshes, and the teamfights that develop around them. ALWAYS assume that when you're farming a lane, you can be ganked and about what the other team might be doing. If you're farming in a dangerous area, always know how you are going to use your escape (blink into trees? Shadowblade and run toward base hoping they don't have dust? )
When to farm and when to fight is an incredibly broad question, but generally, farm when you can get away with it, and fight when you have vision and know that you can win (or at least, stop them from getting an objective). Of course, in pubs you often don't make the decision, but just be vocal and proactive and you'll get better results than not.
Think about kill potential on your team and their team. Who will be your smoke-gank target, Spectre? (do you have enough lockdown to kill her?) Slark? (do you have a silence that you can initiate on him with?) Where will their team be when you gank them? Do they have an NP who will teleport into any fight? If you take a 4 or 5 on 2 fight, when/where will the other team be teleporting in?
Talk about teamfights to your team. Doesn't have to be right before them either. If you're Sven, tell your team "I'm going to blink-stun the first target I see, be ready Tide to ravage on their counter-initiate. Watch for the Jugger ult". 10 seconds on voicecom can make all the difference. Even if you lose a fight, say stuff like "Next time I'll have BKB so we can win that one"
Look at the items on your allies and enemies OFTEN. Is your Lion close to a blink? Tell him to get some camps and play conservative until he does, then that's a good time for a smoke gank. Does the enemy seem like they'll build BKBs soon? Think about how your team is going to take fights when they have them. Do you have lockdown through the BKB, or do you have to bait it out?
I think by the way Dota is, there are just too many games that turn into stomps because of farming inequities or feeding or the other team doing the old "meat grinder" 5v1-1-1-1-1. People actually aren't that used to having real teamfights too often of times.
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On June 29 2016 13:47 schmitty9800 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2016 08:06 Parkplayground wrote: My weakest point is my mid and late game decisio. Making. Determining when to farm and when to fight(problem #1) and how to maintain my lead that i get from the laning stage (#2) are the things i feel are holding me back the most. If anyone can help me on something, please make it one of these two topics.
Remember that 90% of the mid and late game will be about maximizing farm, creating/avoiding pickoffs, tower pushes/Roshes, and the teamfights that develop around them. ALWAYS assume that when you're farming a lane, you can be ganked and about what the other team might be doing. If you're farming in a dangerous area, always know how you are going to use your escape (blink into trees? Shadowblade and run toward base hoping they don't have dust? ) When to farm and when to fight is an incredibly broad question, but generally, farm when you can get away with it, and fight when you have vision and know that you can win (or at least, stop them from getting an objective). Of course, in pubs you often don't make the decision, but just be vocal and proactive and you'll get better results than not. Think about kill potential on your team and their team. Who will be your smoke-gank target, Spectre? (do you have enough lockdown to kill her?) Slark? (do you have a silence that you can initiate on him with?) Where will their team be when you gank them? Do they have an NP who will teleport into any fight? If you take a 4 or 5 on 2 fight, when/where will the other team be teleporting in? Talk about teamfights to your team. Doesn't have to be right before them either. If you're Sven, tell your team "I'm going to blink-stun the first target I see, be ready Tide to ravage on their counter-initiate. Watch for the Jugger ult". 10 seconds on voicecom can make all the difference. Even if you lose a fight, say stuff like "Next time I'll have BKB so we can win that one" Look at the items on your allies and enemies OFTEN. Is your Lion close to a blink? Tell him to get some camps and play conservative until he does, then that's a good time for a smoke gank. Does the enemy seem like they'll build BKBs soon? Think about how your team is going to take fights when they have them. Do you have lockdown through the BKB, or do you have to bait it out? I think by the way Dota is, there are just too many games that turn into stomps because of farming inequities or feeding or the other team doing the old "meat grinder" 5v1-1-1-1-1. People actually aren't that used to having real teamfights too often of times.
I cant say i never get caught out when i push waves, but my ability to dodge ganks is much better than most people at ~2.5k and i always farm. Aggressively if possible to put as much pressure on the enemies as i can. I have noticed that when im behind i play teamfights very all-in style where if i am ahead i always think they cant kill me as easily as they do whicch may be just a lack of experience. Teamfights ( like you said) are not as common in my games it seems because there are alwyas pickoffs before big engagements or the initiators dont initiate which causes an awkward teamfight to start or soemthing along those lines.
Regarding maintaining my lead from the laning stage, what are some mindsets/ideas/etc. Thay keep you guys from being to greedy when you have an advantage?
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