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On August 07 2014 00:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 15:12 ahw wrote:
(im not talking about ti4 here but in pub captains mode or ap)
i think the advantage is you can draft him early and flex him wherever you want. if they changed his skillset so he wasnt as great at escaping lv 1 ganks, you couldnt draft him and move him to mid or offlane 3-4 picks later, or if you did, he'd at least be more vulnerable
he's just very flexible. its not the offlane function itself that is wrong Why shouldn't he be great at escaping level 1 ganks? The lowered mana cost of TW is one of the only reasons people pick him these days. Back when TW cost 120 mana he was a liability in the safelane. If you could force him to use it before level 3, he became useless.
because they buffed chrono and bash in chrono to compensate for a laning weakness. i dont know i think a hero with his toolkit SHOULD be a liability in the safe lane tbh
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For what it's worth if you wanted to nerf void offlane specifically you could probably do so by nerfing or changing agh's scepter on FV. What you often see a lot out of offlane voids is a agh's 1st/2nd item (usually midas->aghs) that allows them to go and setup a constant stream of team ganks with aghs even though FV has poor damage output at that point. Yeah offlane void can go a more traditional build, but the reduced farm means they're not going to have the same kill potential inside of chrono early on which damages the viability of the strat. Sceptre on offlane FV makes him flexible in game because he can still carry/snowball, but even if he doesn't he has a great 6s disable on a 60s CD. The fact that at level 6-15 aghs reduces the CD to 60s means that a FV with just midas/aghs can roam and gank with teammates to make up for not farming well in the offlane.
Pubwise I don't think FVs have the same luxury because they can't count on allies the same way. The key there is to just try and punish FVs when their chrono is down or buy mobility items, position defensively, and move in to help allies after they get chronoed.
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Yeah I mean Logo has a point it's not really an offlane thing. Void is not really that good of an offlaner, he can be completely shut down in the offlane by many heroes, but it's his ability to still be an early force with little farm due to Aghs Chrono. If they made Aghs simply reduce Chrono CD by 20s at each level I think would be fair.
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what is the standard item progression on void? obvious opening is treads -> MoM -> maelstrom. what is the best dps increase after that between mjollnir, crit, deso, etc?
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On August 19 2014 06:00 joolz wrote:
what is the standard item progression on void? obvious opening is treads -> MoM -> maelstrom. what is the best dps increase after that between mjollnir, crit, deso, etc?
Most people get Daedalus next.
That said it's not that simple. Sometimes Bane's enfeeble will ruin your day if you get too much aspd.
And dps does not correlate perfectly with average number of hits to kill a target which is a more important stat.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/848c1Nv.png)
Deso gives you the most but only if you turn off your lifesteal from mask and only against targets that haven't built some armor already and aren't getting them from auras or buffs.
Manta gives you the 2nd most theoretical dps but your illusions have to survive the entire time they're hitting and I'm ignoring all cast times and stuff.
Daedalus is high but offers no utility and has a randomness to it (bad). Crystalys has a great build path.
MKB gives you true strike and a stacking bash but has a terrible build path.
Mjolnir has some great effects but has a random chance, deals AoE magic damage (bkb, veil of discord, etc...), and has a great effect and decent build path. It also makes you weaker to damage reduction since you invest so much into attack speed and attacking too much might affect your chasing potential (I don't know) or might also give you more bashes. It also can cancel a lifesteal proc which is a big deal if you were gonna heal for like 200*.15=30 HP or with satanic, like 1.75*X HP.
Butterfly is obviously amazing against the ever popular 1 protects 4 pub comp.
All damage calculated in chrono.
http://devilesk.com/dota2/apps/hero-calculator?id=pm23gQeiHXzGLb5d
I'm wrong on the illusion damage. I thought illusions got aspd buffs from mask but they don't. Things make sense again. Manta damage sucks.
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United States15275 Posts
On August 19 2014 06:00 joolz wrote:
what is the standard item progression on void? obvious opening is treads -> MoM -> maelstrom. what is the best dps increase after that between mjollnir, crit, deso, etc?
Maelstrom/MoM is the most common item build these days but it's not mandatory. Midas is a great pickup if you get 5-6 minutes of free farm. Battlefury is considered antiquated but still works for certain 4 protect 1 strategies. Diffusal/Manta works well against select mana-dependent cores. Midas/Aghs and MoM/Aghs remain viable but are rapidly becoming niche.
In my opinion, you should opt for Mjollnir in most games. The Mjollnir/MoM combination guarantees Time Lock stun, if not the damage, will always be relevant. Static Charge is fairly useful on Void or on a tanky offlaner. If the enemy has too much burst damage or BKB-piercing disables to use Berserk safely, you can dump MoM for something that grants more durability like Satanic. Crit after Maelstrom works if Void is snowballing and is unlikely to die in fights. I don't recommend it as a typical followup since Void does not need to focus on right-click DPS in all games.
There are, of course, other extensions like Manta and BKB which fulfill more utility functions. Sometimes you want BKB just to survive a midgame-oriented onslaught.
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thanks both of you for the nice info. i really do love maelstrom first after treads+MOM but i'll have to consider some of this other stuff.
i guess something not shown in the spreadsheet is the farm boosting. maelstrom is a decent bump in farm speed (mainly in lane, not jungle) compared to the other stuff. 2 procs in lane and the wave is pretty much cleared.
manta is a really interesting idea. i dont think i've ever seen it on void. typically manta is both defensive and offensive on most carries but given void's reliance on chrono it seems almost purely offensive.
random side question: if puck fires orb and then phase shifts, then void chronos right where puck phase shifted, can puck teleport to the orb outside the chrono?
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manta is legit if they have silence and you wanna skip bkb. the yasha is actually nice because he makes good use of the movespeed while in lane/jungle
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Chonosphere is allegedly bugged right now so that enemies stay disabled for half a second after it ends. Can anyone confirm?
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so with faceless void's nerf in 6.82, is he still played the same, item and skill wise?
im starting to learn void now since i have noticed a big drop-off of him being picked in my ranked solo queue games.
i usually go brown boots > pms > treads > MoM > maelstrom
i am thinking of going treads > pms > aquila for early game. not sure if aquila's helpful for void. i am also considering midas instead of aquila
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On October 02 2014 18:27 CodeskyE wrote:
so with faceless void's nerf in 6.82, is he still played the same, item and skill wise?
im starting to learn void now since i have noticed a big drop-off of him being picked in my ranked solo queue games.
i usually go brown boots > pms > treads > MoM > maelstrom
i am thinking of going treads > pms > aquila for early game. not sure if aquila's helpful for void. i am also considering midas instead of aquila
I don't think the aquila is necessary, you really only need enough mana to escape at any given time and accumulate enough to TW>Chrono when you want to go for a kill. He doesn't really use a lot of mana, and the armor isn't that helpful. I'd rather get the Morbid Mask instead for that gold.
Midas is situational, as it is with any hero. If you're getting free farm (so can get it early, sub 6-7 minutes) and plan to use chrono to get a kill in your lane rather than move around the map early, go for it, otherwise I think you'd be better off to rush your Treads/MoM as fast as possible so you can start getting kills, especially if you're going for solo kills on a particular hero.
PMS is only useful in the offlane or in the safe lane when you are being contested. Don't get it all the time. Stout Shield is usually a safe pick up in all but the easiest lanes, but you don't always need to upgrade it.
He's played pretty much the same as before, IMO.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 02 2014 18:27 CodeskyE wrote:
so with faceless void's nerf in 6.82, is he still played the same, item and skill wise?
im starting to learn void now since i have noticed a big drop-off of him being picked in my ranked solo queue games.
i usually go brown boots > pms > treads > MoM > maelstrom
i am thinking of going treads > pms > aquila for early game. not sure if aquila's helpful for void. i am also considering midas instead of aquila
He is still played the same way, but that is no longer the optimal way in the carry role. Passives still working in Chronosphere strain his item progression quite a bit, especially since he depended on evasion removal to skip MKB in the lategame. I would argue that if you go a MoM build in 6.82, you must dump it at some point before getting 6-slotted. The changes may not seem big but they were large nerfs to offlane Void specifically.
Boots -> PMS -> PTs -> MoM -> Maelstrom is fine. Skip the PMS if the lane is going well.
Aquila is an optional pickup if you want to maintain mana sustain while farming. It will give you just enough mana regen to constantly use Berserk off CD, and it's a cheap way to stack EHP in conjunction with Backtrack. But since it's primarily a laning item, you will usually skip it with good farm and rush for Morbid Mask with bad farm.
Midas isn't really a "substitute" for Aquila: it cost twice as much. You should only get Midas if you have free farm at the beginning and plan to extend the game late. Otherwise MoM will get you more farming gold and way better ganking potential.
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I like the PMS (if needed0 --> Treads --> MoM --> Maelstrom progression. It feels really natural but my question has more to do with the post-core items. Mjoll should probably follow Maelstrom or should I go crit next? Any guidance on the follow-ons or is that simply game dependent?
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United States15275 Posts
It is game-dependent. Your three common followups are Mjollnir, BKB, and Crystalys.
Maelstrom -> Mjollnir if you have enough outside damage to kill targets inside Chrono during team fights.
BKB if your right-click damage is necessary to kill targets inside Chrono during team fights.
Crystalys if you are snowballing and want to continue pressuring the map after enemy BKBs are purchased.
As an offlaner, you will usually not snowball hard enough to afford Crit at a reasonable time. If you are snowballing, then you will usually want Mjollnir or BKB first.
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Excellent, thank you. Follow-up question: is Butterfly a good option after the crit/bkb path?
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United States15275 Posts
In my opinion, Butterfly is one of the best lategame items on him: an ideal 6-slotted Void will always have Mjollnir and BFly. However, it is not the best 4th item all the time. You would prefer to finish your Mjollnir or Daedalus first in most cases. Depending on the situation, you might want to rush RFO/MKB/Manta after those too.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
I tend to get baby crit after maelstrom, and then assess if i want to finish mjollnir or big crit first
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On October 06 2014 07:40 ahswtini wrote:
I tend to get baby crit after maelstrom, and then assess if i want to finish mjollnir or big crit first
If I may, what drives that decision process for you?
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On October 06 2014 07:40 CosmicSpiral wrote:
In my opinion, Butterfly is one of the best lategame items on him: an ideal 6-slotted Void will always have Mjollnir and BFly. However, it is not the best 4th item all the time. You would prefer to finish your Mjollnir or Daedalus first in most cases. Depending on the situation, you might want to rush RFO/MKB/Manta after those too.
Thanks for the advice. I noticed no Aghs though...
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EPT
