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On November 28 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
are there any good cost efficiency spreadsheets for this game? there are like a million for lol and they're usually pretty good.
What do you mean with cost effeciency? For items?
Because that rarely works out in DotA since items in LoL are just chunks of stats that grow more and more cost effecient and most items in DotA actually have certain uses and are picked up for certain reasons.
Daedalus gives more DPS than MKB, but often you'll pick up the MKB over the daedalus, why? True stright and mini-bash.
And how would you ever measure the cost-effeciency of an item like BKB? Or linken sphere?
Not to mention that the most cost-effecient item in DotA are gg branches.
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On November 28 2012 18:11 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
are there any good cost efficiency spreadsheets for this game? there are like a million for lol and they're usually pretty good. What do you mean with cost effeciency? For items? Because that rarely works out in DotA since items in LoL are just chunks of stats that grow more and more cost effecient and most items in DotA actually have certain uses and are picked up for certain reasons. Daedalus gives more DPS than MKB, but often you'll pick up the MKB over the daedalus, why? True stright and mini-bash. And how would you ever measure the cost-effeciency of an item like BKB? Or linken sphere? Not to mention that the most cost-effecient item in DotA are gg branches.
easy, straight up costing on the stats and then you eyeball the value of the utility. You don't try to do nonsense like calculating dps of daedalus vs mkb, I have no idea why you'd do that. I honestly don't think you've ever seen one with that answer.
It gives you a sense of how much you're spending proportionately on different effects. If I need to gain strength now I don't want to buy a strength item that has a lot of it's cost allotted to utility, or vice versa, or one where I'm getting the desired stat at relatively poor efficiency, etc. It's perfectly applicable. I guarantee icefrog has a pile of these sitting around, you can't design itemization without them because costing by trial and error or rule of thumb would be ridiculously laborious.
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But, you CAN'T measure the effectiveness of the effects of an item since that depends ENTIRELY on both your and the enemy composition of heroes. There are even games where MKB will give you more DPS than daed even though daed gives far more raw DPS.
Against certain lineups BKB might be the best fucking item in the game and against others it could be entirely pointless and against others it's good but not as amazing as it could be.
I really find it pointless, i mean i can tell you that drums are basically up there among the most cost-effecient items in the game because it's good in all games practically regardless of situation, and there are games where heaven's halberd is crazy cost-effecient, and games where it's utterly pointless to pick up.
It's just not possible to write up that X item has Y cost effeciency. Because that will change and even changing 1 enemy hero in their lineup could completely alter the effeciency of an item.
Edit: And really, items in Dota has been changed in regards to recipe cost so many times because it was either not worth buying in most cases or worth buying in too many cases(Forcestaff for example).
That is pretty much trial and error.
Edit2: Most people in DotA just know when an item is good and when it's bad, it comes from experience. In LoL items are basically chunks of stats with rarely any noticeable active effect. That's EASY to measure the cost-effeciency of.
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On November 28 2012 18:31 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 18:11 Unleashing wrote:On November 28 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
are there any good cost efficiency spreadsheets for this game? there are like a million for lol and they're usually pretty good. What do you mean with cost effeciency? For items? Because that rarely works out in DotA since items in LoL are just chunks of stats that grow more and more cost effecient and most items in DotA actually have certain uses and are picked up for certain reasons. Daedalus gives more DPS than MKB, but often you'll pick up the MKB over the daedalus, why? True stright and mini-bash. And how would you ever measure the cost-effeciency of an item like BKB? Or linken sphere? Not to mention that the most cost-effecient item in DotA are gg branches. easy, straight up costing on the stats and then you eyeball the value of the utility. You don't try to do nonsense like calculating dps of daedalus vs mkb, I have no idea why you'd do that. I honestly don't think you've ever seen one with that answer. It gives you a sense of how much you're spending proportionately on different effects. If I need to gain strength now I don't want to buy a strength item that has a lot of it's cost allotted to utility, or vice versa, or one where I'm getting the desired stat at relatively poor efficiency, etc. It's perfectly applicable. I guarantee icefrog has a pile of these sitting around, you can't design itemization without them because costing by trial and error or rule of thumb would be ridiculously laborious.
the itemization in dota is indeed based on trial and error, over the last 7 years.
there is no need for spreadsheets as the more expensive items are penalized in dota.
if you'd want the most cost efficient item giving you HP it will be the vitality booster. for every single stat it depends on your inventory space. cheap items are always more cost effective and the secondary effects define the items. you get the items because of the effect, stats are secondary.
this isn't lol with its disgusting item system where more expensive items are more cost efficient then cheap ones. inventory space is a ressource in dota.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On November 28 2012 19:17 fleeze wrote:
this isn't lol with its disgusting item system where more expensive items are more cost efficient then cheap ones. inventory space is a ressource in dota.
I don't know about LoL so I won't comment on that, but this second sentence is very important.
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like mentioned before, GG Branch at 53 gold for 1 Str, 1 Agi, 1 Int is the most cost effective stats item in the game.
*ninja-ed  *
for comparison, Ultimate Orb at 2100 gold give 10 Str, 10 Agi, 10 Int. If you can carry 10 gg branch it will only cost 530 gold instead
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But yea, each GG branch gives
1 damage
1 attack speed
0.14 armor
19 HP
0.03 HP regen
13 mana
0.04 MP regen
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@unleashing: thanks but while you're talking about some cool stuff it's only sorta half relevant. I know how the costing scales up, but there's more to it than that.
On November 28 2012 19:17 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 18:31 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 28 2012 18:11 Unleashing wrote:On November 28 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
are there any good cost efficiency spreadsheets for this game? there are like a million for lol and they're usually pretty good. What do you mean with cost effeciency? For items? Because that rarely works out in DotA since items in LoL are just chunks of stats that grow more and more cost effecient and most items in DotA actually have certain uses and are picked up for certain reasons. Daedalus gives more DPS than MKB, but often you'll pick up the MKB over the daedalus, why? True stright and mini-bash. And how would you ever measure the cost-effeciency of an item like BKB? Or linken sphere? Not to mention that the most cost-effecient item in DotA are gg branches. easy, straight up costing on the stats and then you eyeball the value of the utility. You don't try to do nonsense like calculating dps of daedalus vs mkb, I have no idea why you'd do that. I honestly don't think you've ever seen one with that answer. It gives you a sense of how much you're spending proportionately on different effects. If I need to gain strength now I don't want to buy a strength item that has a lot of it's cost allotted to utility, or vice versa, or one where I'm getting the desired stat at relatively poor efficiency, etc. It's perfectly applicable. I guarantee icefrog has a pile of these sitting around, you can't design itemization without them because costing by trial and error or rule of thumb would be ridiculously laborious. the itemization in dota is indeed based on trial and error, over the last 7 years. there is no need for spreadsheets as the more expensive items are penalized in dota. if you'd want the most cost efficient item giving you HP it will be the vitality booster. for every single stat it depends on your inventory space. cheap items are always more cost effective and the secondary effects define the items. you get the items because of the effect, stats are secondary. this isn't lol with its disgusting item system where more expensive items are more cost efficient then cheap ones. inventory space is a ressource in dota.
yeah lol doesn't really take advantage of slot limits the way dota does, although they are reworking the item system with that in mind in the next patch so if they do it right it kinda will... who knows. I was actually specifically wondering about the utility costing on support items vs other types. For example force staff gives zero stats from the recipe, you can see it's overwhelmingly weighted to the utility. On the other hand drums which cost about the same net do give stats for the recipe and they're only semi-supporty. Then if you look at another item that is not at all supporty in that cost range like necro a quarter of the stats it gives come from the recipe. So for example, is that a pattern? It might not be, it might be, but either way I'm very interested in how item costs break down so I'm going to have further questions, which past a certain point you are not going to be very interested in answering. Hence I need a spreadsheet, if there already is one.
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On November 28 2012 19:40 UniversalSnip wrote:@unleashing: thanks but while you're talking about some cool stuff it's not super relevant. I sorta know how the costing scales up, but there's more to it than that. Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 19:17 fleeze wrote:On November 28 2012 18:31 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 28 2012 18:11 Unleashing wrote:On November 28 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
are there any good cost efficiency spreadsheets for this game? there are like a million for lol and they're usually pretty good. What do you mean with cost effeciency? For items? Because that rarely works out in DotA since items in LoL are just chunks of stats that grow more and more cost effecient and most items in DotA actually have certain uses and are picked up for certain reasons. Daedalus gives more DPS than MKB, but often you'll pick up the MKB over the daedalus, why? True stright and mini-bash. And how would you ever measure the cost-effeciency of an item like BKB? Or linken sphere? Not to mention that the most cost-effecient item in DotA are gg branches. easy, straight up costing on the stats and then you eyeball the value of the utility. You don't try to do nonsense like calculating dps of daedalus vs mkb, I have no idea why you'd do that. I honestly don't think you've ever seen one with that answer. It gives you a sense of how much you're spending proportionately on different effects. If I need to gain strength now I don't want to buy a strength item that has a lot of it's cost allotted to utility, or vice versa, or one where I'm getting the desired stat at relatively poor efficiency, etc. It's perfectly applicable. I guarantee icefrog has a pile of these sitting around, you can't design itemization without them because costing by trial and error or rule of thumb would be ridiculously laborious. the itemization in dota is indeed based on trial and error, over the last 7 years. there is no need for spreadsheets as the more expensive items are penalized in dota. if you'd want the most cost efficient item giving you HP it will be the vitality booster. for every single stat it depends on your inventory space. cheap items are always more cost effective and the secondary effects define the items. you get the items because of the effect, stats are secondary. this isn't lol with its disgusting item system where more expensive items are more cost efficient then cheap ones. inventory space is a ressource in dota. yeah lol doesn't really take advantage of slot limits the way dota does, although they are reworking the item system with that in mind in the next patch so if they do it right it kinda will... who knows. I was actually specifically wondering about the utility costing on support items vs other types. For example force staff gives zero stats from the recipe, you can see it's overwhelmingly weighted to the utility. On the other hand drums which cost about the same net do give stats for the recipe and they're only semi-supporty. Then if you look at another item that is not at all supporty in that cost range like necro a quarter of the stats it gives come from the recipe. So for example, is that a pattern? It might not be, it might be, but either way I'm very interested in how item costs break down so I'm going to have further questions, which past a certain point you are not going to be very interested in answering. Hence I need a spreadsheet, if there already is one.
if you are support and in dire need of HP, get a vitality booster. simple as that.
though there are some cases where an ogre axe can be better, if you want to build BKB for example (or you're Ars-Art and go for the Sange CM :D)
edit: just talking about Position 5 Supports, 4 has a bit more flexibility.
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On November 28 2012 19:40 UniversalSnip wrote:
@unleashing: thanks but while you're talking about some cool stuff it's only sorta half relevant. I know how the costing scales up, but there's more to it than that.
But i didn't talk about how costing scales up, good job on the reading comprehension, buddy.
On November 28 2012 19:40 UniversalSnip wrote:
yeah lol doesn't really take advantage of slot limits the way dota does, although they are reworking the item system with that in mind in the next patch so if they do it right it kinda will... who knows. I was actually specifically wondering about the utility costing on support items vs other types. For example force staff gives zero stats from the recipe, you can see it's overwhelmingly weighted to the utility. On the other hand drums which cost about the same net do give stats for the recipe and they're only semi-supporty. Then if you look at another item that is not at all supporty in that cost range like necro a quarter of the stats it gives come from the recipe. So for example, is that a pattern? It might not be, it might be, but either way I'm very interested in how item costs break down so I'm going to have further questions, which past a certain point you are not going to be very interested in answering. Hence I need a spreadsheet, if there already is one.
But such a spreadsheet will never ever work.
Again, how will you measure the effeciency of the active effect of forcestaff? How will you measure the effeciency of the active from necrobook?
You can't because it changes depending on the line-up of your team and the enemy team.
You can simply not say that X item has Y cost effeciency unless it's a raw stat-item or with no special effect.
For supports, what about mana boots VS tranquil boots? Again, how the fuck will you measure the cost-effeciency of the two? There are games where mana boots regardless of being quite a bit more expensive for a support, is by far the better item no matter how you look at it.
If an item gives stats from the recipe changes from item to item, it really has no real pattern.
Euls gets and active AND stats from the cheap as hell recipe.
Scythe has no recipe AND gets an amazing active component and so on.
There's no pattern that you can put into math or a spreadsheet where you can objectively compare it without taking line-ups into consideration.
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Man I'm not even going to argue with you because we're not on the same page. You wouldn't even be wrong, you're literally not talking about anything I'm talking about.
I'll just ask yango.
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"are there any good cost efficiency spreadsheets for this game? there are like a million for lol and they're usually pretty good."
Yea sure we're not on the same page, not like you asked for a cost-effeciency spreadsheet or anything like it.
Having a spreadsheet of cost effeciency implies that you can measure the cost effeciency of the items, which you really can't because lineups are dynamic.
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What he means is that you can't quantify the utility of certain items. For example, bkb can be very good or totally useless.
Sometimes ghost scepter is better than forcestaff if you can't get both.
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Questions for item build on storm spirit:
I've always gone bottle -> fast arcane boots for extra mana regen -> bloodstone, but I don't feel like I farm the bloodstone fast enough. I've had orchid recommended to me, but it feels natural to go bloodstone and use the energy booster from arcane boots. In what cases should I go for orchid (or maybe sheep? or some other big int item?) over bloodstone, and would I build treads first?
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United States47024 Posts
On November 29 2012 00:07 synapse wrote:
Questions for item build on storm spirit:
I've always gone bottle -> fast arcane boots for extra mana regen -> bloodstone, but I don't feel like I farm the bloodstone fast enough. I've had orchid recommended to me, but it feels natural to go bloodstone and use the energy booster from arcane boots. In what cases should I go for orchid (or maybe sheep? or some other big int item?) over bloodstone, and would I build treads first?
Orchid first is more gank/solo-kill oriented. You get no defensive stats and minimal teamfight power, but its the largest practical increase to your burst damage and prevents enemies from escaping easily (it allows you to do your full combo against anyone, rather than having to use vortex earlier in the combo against heroes with blinks/stuns). You get it in games where the enemy isn't grouping up heavily early/midgame and you can use it to gank/apply pressure early on.
Bloodstone is a much more teamfight-oriented start. It doesn't give you as much damage, but it does give you much more HP and both types of regen. Sheep first is a middle-of-the-road option that gives you less HP than Bloodstone, less damage than Orchid, but more or less decent teamfighting/ganking ability.
Other options:
- Straight BKB--usually not needed for pubs. Used in competitive games where teamfights will happen early and people won't get solo-killed by Storm. Typically Storm is picked as an initiator at times where this build is necessary--so he can actually survive those early fights going in first (the other 2 builds don't have the survivability to eat the first round of spells if they initiate)
- Linken's--hardcore farming build. Not common, but it happens sometimes. Bloodstone is generally a better item for Storm that gives similar stats.
EDIT: Treads are the boots of choice when you aren't building Bloodstone.
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There are never hard and fast rules on itemization, but in general orchid is better when you want to get in, kill 1 guy (preferably alone), and get out asap. Bloodstone is more oriented towards teamfights, sustain-over-time (pushing, often) etc. It is important to factor in what things you may need to silence with your orchid though. Think about what your playstyle will be vs their team composition at the start of the game.
Orchid+Treads also lets you right-click carry decently well. Bloodstone not so much, although you can still go treads post-bloodstone.
Don't forget to tread switch when using bottle charges!
Edit: Yango types faster than me 
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theoretical question:
If rubick steals refraction and has the buff active and then steals rot and activates it, will rot remove refraction charges? Or will it not affect them at all?
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On November 28 2012 19:45 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 19:40 UniversalSnip wrote:@unleashing: thanks but while you're talking about some cool stuff it's not super relevant. I sorta know how the costing scales up, but there's more to it than that. On November 28 2012 19:17 fleeze wrote:On November 28 2012 18:31 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 28 2012 18:11 Unleashing wrote:On November 28 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
are there any good cost efficiency spreadsheets for this game? there are like a million for lol and they're usually pretty good. What do you mean with cost effeciency? For items? Because that rarely works out in DotA since items in LoL are just chunks of stats that grow more and more cost effecient and most items in DotA actually have certain uses and are picked up for certain reasons. Daedalus gives more DPS than MKB, but often you'll pick up the MKB over the daedalus, why? True stright and mini-bash. And how would you ever measure the cost-effeciency of an item like BKB? Or linken sphere? Not to mention that the most cost-effecient item in DotA are gg branches. easy, straight up costing on the stats and then you eyeball the value of the utility. You don't try to do nonsense like calculating dps of daedalus vs mkb, I have no idea why you'd do that. I honestly don't think you've ever seen one with that answer. It gives you a sense of how much you're spending proportionately on different effects. If I need to gain strength now I don't want to buy a strength item that has a lot of it's cost allotted to utility, or vice versa, or one where I'm getting the desired stat at relatively poor efficiency, etc. It's perfectly applicable. I guarantee icefrog has a pile of these sitting around, you can't design itemization without them because costing by trial and error or rule of thumb would be ridiculously laborious. the itemization in dota is indeed based on trial and error, over the last 7 years. there is no need for spreadsheets as the more expensive items are penalized in dota. if you'd want the most cost efficient item giving you HP it will be the vitality booster. for every single stat it depends on your inventory space. cheap items are always more cost effective and the secondary effects define the items. you get the items because of the effect, stats are secondary. this isn't lol with its disgusting item system where more expensive items are more cost efficient then cheap ones. inventory space is a ressource in dota. yeah lol doesn't really take advantage of slot limits the way dota does, although they are reworking the item system with that in mind in the next patch so if they do it right it kinda will... who knows. I was actually specifically wondering about the utility costing on support items vs other types. For example force staff gives zero stats from the recipe, you can see it's overwhelmingly weighted to the utility. On the other hand drums which cost about the same net do give stats for the recipe and they're only semi-supporty. Then if you look at another item that is not at all supporty in that cost range like necro a quarter of the stats it gives come from the recipe. So for example, is that a pattern? It might not be, it might be, but either way I'm very interested in how item costs break down so I'm going to have further questions, which past a certain point you are not going to be very interested in answering. Hence I need a spreadsheet, if there already is one. if you are support and in dire need of HP, get a vitality booster. simple as that. though there are some cases where an ogre axe can be better, if you want to build BKB for example (or you're Ars-Art and go for the Sange CM :D) edit: just talking about Position 5 Supports, 4 has a bit more flexibility.
To jump onto the Arts-Art mention. I was studying the replays of him playing Lesh at TI2 and noticed some games he went for arcane boots and sometimes treads. Also he very rarely bought an urn and hood.
Wondering if anyone could help explain why those choices were made as some stem from the norm of a lesh build
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On November 29 2012 07:12 Unleashing wrote:
theoretical question:
If rubick steals refraction and has the buff active and then steals rot and activates it, will rot remove refraction charges? Or will it not affect them at all?
It should remove refraction charges because its selfmagical damage, not hp removal. thats why pudges passive helps against his own rot. also just a side note. If you die while rotting as rubick it stays on. Causing you to die over and over again. Might be fixed by now though.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On November 29 2012 07:44 Random_Guy09 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 19:45 fleeze wrote:On November 28 2012 19:40 UniversalSnip wrote:@unleashing: thanks but while you're talking about some cool stuff it's not super relevant. I sorta know how the costing scales up, but there's more to it than that. On November 28 2012 19:17 fleeze wrote:On November 28 2012 18:31 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 28 2012 18:11 Unleashing wrote:On November 28 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
are there any good cost efficiency spreadsheets for this game? there are like a million for lol and they're usually pretty good. What do you mean with cost effeciency? For items? Because that rarely works out in DotA since items in LoL are just chunks of stats that grow more and more cost effecient and most items in DotA actually have certain uses and are picked up for certain reasons. Daedalus gives more DPS than MKB, but often you'll pick up the MKB over the daedalus, why? True stright and mini-bash. And how would you ever measure the cost-effeciency of an item like BKB? Or linken sphere? Not to mention that the most cost-effecient item in DotA are gg branches. easy, straight up costing on the stats and then you eyeball the value of the utility. You don't try to do nonsense like calculating dps of daedalus vs mkb, I have no idea why you'd do that. I honestly don't think you've ever seen one with that answer. It gives you a sense of how much you're spending proportionately on different effects. If I need to gain strength now I don't want to buy a strength item that has a lot of it's cost allotted to utility, or vice versa, or one where I'm getting the desired stat at relatively poor efficiency, etc. It's perfectly applicable. I guarantee icefrog has a pile of these sitting around, you can't design itemization without them because costing by trial and error or rule of thumb would be ridiculously laborious. the itemization in dota is indeed based on trial and error, over the last 7 years. there is no need for spreadsheets as the more expensive items are penalized in dota. if you'd want the most cost efficient item giving you HP it will be the vitality booster. for every single stat it depends on your inventory space. cheap items are always more cost effective and the secondary effects define the items. you get the items because of the effect, stats are secondary. this isn't lol with its disgusting item system where more expensive items are more cost efficient then cheap ones. inventory space is a ressource in dota. yeah lol doesn't really take advantage of slot limits the way dota does, although they are reworking the item system with that in mind in the next patch so if they do it right it kinda will... who knows. I was actually specifically wondering about the utility costing on support items vs other types. For example force staff gives zero stats from the recipe, you can see it's overwhelmingly weighted to the utility. On the other hand drums which cost about the same net do give stats for the recipe and they're only semi-supporty. Then if you look at another item that is not at all supporty in that cost range like necro a quarter of the stats it gives come from the recipe. So for example, is that a pattern? It might not be, it might be, but either way I'm very interested in how item costs break down so I'm going to have further questions, which past a certain point you are not going to be very interested in answering. Hence I need a spreadsheet, if there already is one. if you are support and in dire need of HP, get a vitality booster. simple as that. though there are some cases where an ogre axe can be better, if you want to build BKB for example (or you're Ars-Art and go for the Sange CM :D) edit: just talking about Position 5 Supports, 4 has a bit more flexibility. To jump onto the Arts-Art mention. I was studying the replays of him playing Lesh at TI2 and noticed some games he went for arcane boots and sometimes treads. Also he very rarely bought an urn and hood. Wondering if anyone could help explain why those choices were made as some stem from the norm of a lesh build
Arcane boots if you're doing well and if the team doesn't already have at least 2 of them, so you can support the team. Treads if you're not doing so well, as it is made of cheaper parts and also buffs up your hp to help you survive.
It is always good to have at least one urn on the team in every game. If no one else is getting one, one of the supports should get one. Reason is that it does a lot of healing in between fights so your team doesn't always have to return back to base to heal after every fight.
Hood is a general survivability thing against high magical damage heroes. Morphling was very popular during TI2 and he does a fuckton of magical burst damage in a split second, often 'shotgunning' a hero from 100% to 0. A hood helps a ton against this.
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EPT
