• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:05
CEST 23:05
KST 06:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
EWC 2025 - Replay Pack1Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced25BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19
StarCraft 2
General
EWC 2025 - Replay Pack #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 I offer completely free coaching services
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 734 users

Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 1036

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1254 Next
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
February 15 2015 20:33 GMT
#20701
On February 16 2015 05:32 zdarr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 14 2015 12:46 Jaeger wrote:
that's incredibly retarded


What is incredibly retarded is people who can't wait 10 mins to play, at this point gaming is becoming a drug for some of you

Nothing remotely new about this.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-15 21:02:44
February 15 2015 21:01 GMT
#20702
On February 16 2015 05:32 zdarr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 14 2015 12:46 Jaeger wrote:
that's incredibly retarded


What is incredibly retarded is people who can't wait 10 mins to play, at this point gaming is becoming a drug for some of you


some people dont have loads of free time and just want that 1 game a day to give them some relief by having some fun unrelated to the real world. 10 minute wait is too long imo.
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
FFGenerations
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
7088 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-15 23:46:14
February 15 2015 23:42 GMT
#20703
whats the timing to land euls stun with lina on jug? i had down perfectly my first few games but suddenly cant land it at all and lost confidence.... i guess i can figure out how to set it up in a cheat lobby and practice

can you land it vs bkb? i dont think you can

anything else it doesnt hit? (probably hits rana, easily hits slark)
Cool BW Music Vid - youtube.com/watch?v=W54nlqJ-Nx8 ~~~~~ ᕤ OYSTERS ᕤ CLAMS ᕤ AND ᕤ CUCKOLDS ᕤ ~~~~~~ ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ PUNCH HIM ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-15 23:56:16
February 15 2015 23:55 GMT
#20704
On February 16 2015 08:42 FFGenerations wrote:
whats the timing to land euls stun with lina on jug? i had down perfectly my first few games but suddenly cant land it at all and lost confidence.... is there a way to practice it?

Bots are always a good way to practice.

One thing I can recommend for really finely-timed stuff is to copy what the FGC does: when there is a pause in action - say, a wake-up, similar to waiting out a Euls - and they need to time something for precisely its end they will often take a couple of pacing actions that take up just the right amount of time. This is harder in Dota than in fighting games because you don't have direct parallels to, say, pressing one punch and one kick and together they give you just the right pause. But you can come close with something like, say, pacing back and forth over a short but consistent distance.

This of course is subject to inaccuracies with Lina specifically because she has varying walking speeds. In any case you may or may not find this general technique helpful, either with the Lina stun or in something else in Dota, but it will be up to you to figure out if there's a place it can help and what specific actions will give the timing you need.

[e] Oh I didn't read correctly...I don't think there's anyway to stop a good jug from spinning out, like most of these combos.

Whoops.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
February 15 2015 23:59 GMT
#20705
spin and bkb are instant I believe, i don't know if it's even possible to land it perfectly.

put it this way - you can spin/bkb out of euls into ice path against jakiro
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
l3loodraven
Profile Joined July 2013
2753 Posts
February 16 2015 01:23 GMT
#20706
working as intended im sure...bkb is supposed to counter these kinds of things.
"fear.dankness cuts deeper than swords"
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-16 02:11:39
February 16 2015 02:09 GMT
#20707
I'm not sure if euls allows the cycloned unit to precast stuff, but if it doesn't then it's theoretically possible to stun before bkb/spin is turned on
Bora Pain minha porra!
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
February 16 2015 02:52 GMT
#20708
On February 16 2015 11:09 Sbrubbles wrote:
I'm not sure if euls allows the cycloned unit to precast stuff, but if it doesn't then it's theoretically possible to stun before bkb/spin is turned on

Any action given during a disable is immediately buffered when the disable ends. By how this is coded in DotA 2, this even allows instant actions to intercede between directly chained disables (e.g. if you buffer BKB/Rage/Blade Fury during Nightmare, and Nightmare is ended by Mirana's Arrow, your item/spell will go off and you won't be damaged or stunned).
Moderator
FFGenerations
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
7088 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-16 09:17:50
February 16 2015 09:12 GMT
#20709
so the wiki says jug has a cast time of 0.3 but then says blade fury has an instant cast time...which is it?

so basically the jugs i was euls stunning were just retards (or had it on cooldown) or what??
Cool BW Music Vid - youtube.com/watch?v=W54nlqJ-Nx8 ~~~~~ ᕤ OYSTERS ᕤ CLAMS ᕤ AND ᕤ CUCKOLDS ᕤ ~~~~~~ ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ PUNCH HIM ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-16 09:27:12
February 16 2015 09:26 GMT
#20710
On February 16 2015 18:12 FFGenerations wrote:
so the wiki says jug has a cast time of 0.3 but then says blade fury has an instant cast time...which is it?

so basically the jugs i was euls stunning were just retards (or had it on cooldown) or what??

some abilities have their own set cast time

eg. a furion casting sprout does not take the same time as a furion casting teleport

this is also why despite having a 0.1s cast time (or something like that), a rubick cannot requiem or teleport instantly
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6230 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-16 11:12:15
February 16 2015 11:02 GMT
#20711
I've often wondered exactly how that works in D2. My understanding is that all spells with individual cast-times just override the hero's cast time, but I'm not totally sure.

In D1 iirc it was done by base spells with fixed properties which were instant-cast or usable during channels or whatever, except for really obvious stuff like Requiem that was coded separately. Dota 2 added a few others though, so now it's a bit confusing.

On that note, can Rubick still doom instantly? Or does he take 0.5s since it was given a unique cast-time? I can't say I've noticed.
Surprise.820
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1276 Posts
February 16 2015 11:13 GMT
#20712
When is it ever relevant to get Aghs for Pudge over Ghost Scepter/Eblade in harder games?
Erase and improve
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
February 16 2015 11:15 GMT
#20713
On February 16 2015 20:02 Belisarius wrote:
I've often wondered exactly how that works in D2.

In D1 iirc it was done by base spells with fixed properties which were instant-cast or usable during channels or whatever, except for really obvious stuff like Requiem that was coded separately. Dota 2 seems to have messed with that and now it's a bit confusing. Do all spells with individual cast-times just override the hero's cast time?

Also Rubick can still doom instantly, can't he? Or does he take 0.5s since it was given a unique cast-time? I can't say I've noticed.

Actually having checked the wiki, it seems rubick has instant cast on any stolen spell apart from assassinate, requiem, furion tp, poof, stasis trap and remote mines, so they don't even use his 0.1s cast time

I guess this means that he can still doom instantly

and yeah i guess spells with their own cast times override the hero's cast time
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
February 16 2015 12:29 GMT
#20714
At one point shortly after his release rubick had near-instant teleport if he stole it from furion. Was pretty funny.
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
February 16 2015 18:47 GMT
#20715
As a native D2 player I can tell you that thinking in D1 terms in regards to cast times is going to fuck you up. Just think of every spell having its own cast point. Sometimes all the spells have the same cast point on a hero but I don't even know how common that is any more, and IceFrog has shown plenty of willingness to make balance adjustments around changing the cast point of individual skills on heroes.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-16 20:48:57
February 16 2015 20:00 GMT
#20716
From a gameplay standpoint (and not a pedantic mechanics one), there are 2 major classes of spells that are useful to remember that have cast points tied to the base spell, and not to the hero:
- Hex
- Wind Walk
- Fan of Knives

Hex is self-explanatory and covers Lion and Rhasta's Hexes. Likewise, Wind Walks are easy to identify because they're self-cast invisibility+phasing. The spells covered by Fan of Knives are harder to remember, but in DotA 2, there are two questions you have to ask yourself:
1) Does the spell have a target? If yes, it's not based on Fan of Knives
2) Does the spell interrupt my movement if I cast it while moving? If no, it's based on Fan of Knives

In order to know the latter, you unfortunately have to have played the hero to have an idea, but otherwise, this covers the relevant spells.

On February 17 2015 03:47 FHDH wrote:
As a native D2 player I can tell you that thinking in D1 terms in regards to cast times is going to fuck you up. Just think of every spell having its own cast point. Sometimes all the spells have the same cast point on a hero but I don't even know how common that is any more, and IceFrog has shown plenty of willingness to make balance adjustments around changing the cast point of individual skills on heroes.

The vast majority of spells still use the hero's cast point. It's still very much the rule rather than the exception.

EDIT: A little clarification on the mechanics in question (this is going to get very jargon-y):
+ Show Spoiler +

First, there are two relevant definitions:
Cast Point: This property is HERO SPECIFIC. This represents the hero's built in animation wind-up before casting any spell.
Cast Time: This property is SPELL SPECIFIC. This represents the spell's own time required before it's effect goes off.

In the general case, the actual time to cast a spell is Cast Point + Cast Time. However, for most spells, cast time is 0, so only the Cast Point is used.

In the Warcraft 3 engine, there are 3 relevant classes of spells that ignore the hero's cast point:
- Hex
- Fan of Knives
- Wind Walk
- Blink

Hex, Wind Walk, and Fan of Knives also have no cast time, Blink has a cast time that is built into the spell--0.33s for QoP's Blink, 0.4s for AM's Blink, and 3s for Furion's Teleport. Yes, Furion's Teleport is included because it's essentially a Blink with infinite range.

Other spells with different casting properties still use the hero's cast point, but have a non-zero cast TIME. So even in DotA 1, spells with different casting properties are possible--Doom/Naga/Panda's changes don't have to be DotA 2 only things.

Where this gets muddled is when Rubick gets involved. Originally, Rubick's stolen spells are supposed to use his cast point, but retain the cast time of the spells in question--this actually makes a lot of sense. The problem is that Valve has muddled the cast point/time concepts into a single number, and has essentially handled all the other spells as hard-coded exceptions using the DOTA_ABILITY_BEHAVIOR_NORMAL_WHEN_STOLEN flag (seemingly an attempt to simplify, but makes things more complicated to remember). As such, there are a ton of spells that don't actually respect this behavior properly, which is why stuff like both Blinks, Primal Split, and Doom have the wrong cast time when stolen by Rubick now.

For the most part, this difference in behavior makes Rubick stronger in DotA 2 than DotA 1.
Moderator
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-16 20:38:25
February 16 2015 20:37 GMT
#20717
That said, I am going through and making a comprehensive list of heroes who have spells of varying cast points:

    Alchemist
    Anti-Mage
    Batrider
    Beastmaster
    Bloodseeker
    Bounty Hunter
    Brewmaster
    Bristleback
    Broodmother
    Clinkz
    Doom
    Drow Ranger
    Earthshaker
    Leshrac
    Lifestealer
    Lion
    Lone Druid
    Lycan
    Meepo
    Mirana
    Naga Siren
    Necrophos
    Nyx Assassin
    Phantom Lancer
    Puck
    Pudge
    Queen of Pain
    Razor
    Shadow Fiend
    Shadow Shaman
    Skywrath Mage
    Slardar
    Slark (sorta)
    Sniper
    Spirit Breaker
    Storm Spirit
    Sven
    Techies
    Templar Assassin
    Terrorblade
    Tidehunter
    Timbersaw
    Tinker
    Treant Protector
    Troll Warlord
    Undying (I think?)
    Ursa
    Visage
    Weaver
    Windranger
    Winter Wyvern
    Zeus

I think I have that right, ignoring most toggles. Now, many of these differences are perfectly explained by the above post. After all these cast points originated in Dota1 which had significant technical limitations. But many of them are the result of balance changes now that Icefrog can use cast points as a balance lever.

So yes, if you think of cast points as married to either the hero or the spell, you're going to be right like 90% of the time at least, but you will be wrong some times and you will be increasingly wrong over time as cast points are tweaked for balancing purposes over the course of future patches.

[e] Yango edited because he is a bastard and knows a lot more than me. Still I think this was useful.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-16 20:46:03
February 16 2015 20:45 GMT
#20718
I mean, the bulk of that list is Fan of Knives, lol. You trim down 90% of that list by not memorizing the Fan of Knives spells and just using the 2-part rule I gave for identifying Fan of Knives-based spells.
Moderator
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
February 16 2015 20:48 GMT
#20719
On February 17 2015 05:45 TheYango wrote:
I mean, the bulk of that list is Fan of Knives, lol. You trim down 90% of that list by not memorizing the Fan of Knives spells and just using the 2-part rule I gave for identifying Fan of Knives-based spells.

Right, I noted that. And I think that's a fine way to think of it for a beginning player, all I am saying is that there are exceptions based on Dota2 balance changes and there will be more in the future.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
FFGenerations
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
7088 Posts
February 16 2015 20:49 GMT
#20720
-_- damn i guess ill read t his later lLOL
od can w before stun?
Cool BW Music Vid - youtube.com/watch?v=W54nlqJ-Nx8 ~~~~~ ᕤ OYSTERS ᕤ CLAMS ᕤ AND ᕤ CUCKOLDS ᕤ ~~~~~~ ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ PUNCH HIM ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ
Prev 1 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1254 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 4
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
ZZZero.O272
LiquipediaDiscussion
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Reynor vs ClemLIVE!
RotterdaM2387
ComeBackTV 2100
IndyStarCraft 619
WardiTV450
CranKy Ducklings186
3DClanTV 147
EnkiAlexander 117
Rex63
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 2675
IndyStarCraft 604
Rex 63
JuggernautJason30
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 276
NaDa 8
Dota 2
capcasts274
LuMiX2
League of Legends
JimRising 359
febbydoto10
Counter-Strike
fl0m2706
Fnx 2348
Stewie2K960
flusha424
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox2575
Mew2King1339
AZ_Axe349
Westballz16
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu599
Khaldor347
Other Games
tarik_tv7736
Grubby3018
summit1g2068
mouzStarbuck139
Sick36
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3146
StarCraft 2
angryscii 16
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta34
• Adnapsc2 12
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22512
• WagamamaTV1105
League of Legends
• Doublelift4443
Other Games
• imaqtpie1642
• Shiphtur449
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
13h 55m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 12h
WardiTV European League
1d 18h
Online Event
1d 20h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.