When the hunted tell tales of Gondar the Bounty Hunter, none are sure of which are true. In whispered tones they say he was abandoned as a kit, learning his skill in tracking as a matter of simple survival. Others hear he was an orphan of war, taken in by the great Soruq the Hunter to learn the master's skill with a blade as they plumbed the dark forests for big game. Still others believe he was a lowly street urchin raised among a guild of cutpurses and thieves, trained in the arts of stealth and misdirection. Around campfires in the wild countryside his quarry speaks the rumors of Gondar's work, growing ever more fearful: they say it was he who tracked down the tyrant King Goff years after the mad regent went into hiding, delivering his head and scepter as proof. That it was he who infiltrated the rebel camps at Highseat, finally bringing the legendary thief White Cape to be judged for his crimes. And that it was he who ended the career of Soruq the Hunter, condemned as a criminal for killing the Prince's prized hellkite. The tales of Gondar's incredible skill stretch on, with each daring feat more unbelievable than the last, each target more elusive. For the right price, the hunted know, anyone can be found. For the right price, even the mightiest may find fear in the shadows.
CONTENTS I. Introduction to the Guide II. Skill Build and Concept III. Item Builds for the Off-Lane IV. What to Do and What Not to Do on the Off-Lane V. Reading the Flow of the Game VI. Follow-up Item Builds for Mid/Late Game VII. Author’s Remarks
I. INTRODUCTION TO THE GUIDE
This guide isn’t about a special build, nor is it going to reveal to you anything you don’t know about what a Bounty Hunter is capable of. I hope this guide will be able to help those who have difficulties in attempting to off-lane Bounty Hunter and the direction of the hero should take after the laning phase. This guide is about doing the little things efficiently whilst utilising the hero to its maximum potential.
Bounty Hunter is one of the most played heroes in DotA 2, and it’s one of the very few heroes that can potentially win the off-lane and with that, the entire game itself. This guide will attempt to renew your understanding of Bounty Hunter and its abilities, while at the same time showing you the concept of the off-lane and how it fits Bounty Hunter as a hero perfectly.
To kick things off, here’s some facts about Bounty Hunter:
Pros - Shadow Walk is a good escape mechanism - Track vision, Track bonus gold, Track bonus movement speed - Has great synergy with a lot of heroes in the current metagame
Cons - Low HP and mana pool - Relatively item-dependent hero - Track armor reduction is being removed in the next patch
II. SKILL BUILD AND CONCEPT
When playing on the off-lane, the most important thing is getting your skill build right. It doesn’t matter if you have a ton of the right items, or a ton of levels for that matter, but if your skill build isn’t what it should be you are going to run into trouble. The three general problems with playing on the off-lane are lack of experience points, lack of gold and having to constantly read your opponents’ heroes.
The lack of experience points would stem from there being at least two heroes and sometimes three on the safe lane going up against you. This limits your ability to fully gain experience points as you may be forced back into a position where you won’t be in range to get experience points (denies come into play too). However, don’t fret too much. The beauty of Bounty Hunter is that you do not need that many levels in the early phase. As long as you’re keeping in touch with your opponent’s support heroes for the first 10 minutes of the game, you’re doing fine. But generally, you’ll find yourself ahead unless you die a couple of times while laning (which shouldn’t happen).
Against a tri-lane, it’s best to make use of Jinada (for tower creeping or last hits against neutrals if there is a pull) as you probably won’t have enough levels anyway to utilise Shuriken Toss; but that doesn’t mean you should neglect it.
Levels 1-7
Levels 8-9
In essence, you’ll normally be on the off-lane until the 10 minute mark or a bit longer than that depending on how the game goes. The skill build above works relatively well against a tri-lane and when you’re not leveling quickly. One of the reasons for the above skill build is that if you’re not leveling quickly, you’re probably not gaining much gold either, so you won’t get a quick Bottle and mana isn’t an expendable resource that you can simply spend on. You only need to skill Shadow Walk until Level 2, and then max out your other skills before maxing Shadow Walk. The reason for this is that at Level 1, Shadow Walk has a duration which syncs directly with your cooldown and it often reveals your position to your enemy when you cast Shadow Walk again.
One of the reasons I would recommend Jinada over Shuriken Toss is the fact that you can stand toe-to-toe against the opponents’ safe lane carry hero should the supports leave the lane. You might struggle against Luna and Tiny, but almost all other heroes would be fine to lane against as you are able to constantly deal 200 damage (even more with Phase Boots) every time Jinada is on cooldown.
An alternative skill build that works for Bounty Hunter is trying to make use of Shuriken Toss (only if your team is capable of pushing early towers and is capable of finding ganks in the early stages).
Levels 1-7
Levels 8-9
The reason why I wouldn’t recommend this build is that you would be over-reliant on Shuriken Toss; whether to lane or in battle. You will have relatively very low base damage and you would be more of a spell-caster rather than a damage dealer. Many people underestimate the slow you inflict on the opponent’s hero with Jinada but it actually is really useful, so if you are going with this build Level 1 Jinada is necessary.
However, the upside of this build is that if you have nukers in your team and your team’s lineup is based on early aggression, this build is the best you could do because Shuriken Toss allows you to kill off enemy heroes quickly before reinforcements arrive or before he/she can cast a spell without getting close to the said hero.
Levels 1-7
If you're being forced off your lane and/or if you encounter heavy pressure from wards or enemy supports, the above build might suit you better. When you encounter a situation like this, taking Level 2 Shadow Walk allows you to roam about the map (as it is not beneficial to stay in the lane) without being revealed due to the cooldown that Level 2 Shadow Walk provides (use Shadow Walk in the fog while you're still invisible to prevent your opponents from catching sight of you). This allows you to catch out potentially heroes that are jungling (like Naix or Prophet) or set up a gank on mid lane. I will not go too much into detail about this as this guide mainly focuses on the off-lane.
I’ll be mainly focusing on the first skill build from here forth, because I feel that it works better in general. The second skill build leaves you very vulnerable, particularly in the mid-game when spells become less of a factor and you don’t have enough damage from the lower levels of Jinada. Hence, you’ll often find yourself unable to contribute to team fights as much as you would want to. Alternatively, you could mix in Jinada with Shuriken Toss (taking at least Level 2 Shuriken Toss) in your skill build if you feel that it is right because I sometimes do that too if I feel that I need a little of both based on how the game is going (however, this is a pretty subjective call so I won’t go into any more detail about it).
III. ITEM BUILDS FOR THE OFF-LANE
You start with 603 gold, so make sure you get the right items because on the off-lane the slightest miscalculation could spell your doom.
Starting Items
You now have spent 499 gold and have 104 gold left to spare (builds you up to quicker Boots of Speed, a very important item when playing on the off-lane). A Healing Salve might be useful but if you play the hero right, you shouldn’t really need it (situational). However, if your opponent has a spell-based lineup, I would recommend getting it. If you’re playing pubs, it’s generally better to sacrifice one Iron Branch in favor of an Observer Ward to block pulls from the enemy side.
Core Items
Phase Boots is the best item designed for Bounty Hunter. An item that provides bonus movement speed, no pathing block, and damage! Some people opt for Power Treads instead, but as a hero that relies on getting Jinada strikes and chasing, Phase Boots will do you more good than harm from the early to the late game. Tranquil Boots is another viable option if you're pressed really badly in your lane. I haven't experimented with this much as I feel that if you're pressed badly, you should try and avoid getting hit/staying in range of spells. However, with the regen it provides and the bonus armor and movement speed it is a viable option if you're looking to hold the lane for as long as you can. The only downside of Tranquil Boots is that it does not grant you the bonus damage you benefit from having Phase Boots. Note:Don't be confused by the images. You should only get either Phase Boots or Tranquil Boots and not both!
Bottle is relatively optional, but I would highly recommend you getting one. It helps Bounty Hunter replenish just enough mana to stay in-lane and it’s great to pick up runes for ganking (at the same time replenishes your HP and mana through the charges). Bracer is good for Bounty Hunter as it helps reduce the slots taken up by Iron Branch, gives you additional HP and builds you up to getting Drum of Endurance.
Some people tend to skip Drum of Endurance in the build for Bounty Hunter (I admit that I might have done so on a couple of occasions too), but it is an extremely useful item to have. The bonus attack speed and movement speed from Swiftness aura syncs well with Bounty Hunter’s needs and Endurance does a lot for your team in team fights where you need to chase and with Track, pretty much gives your team a distinct advantage in hunting down enemy heroes. If you do skip Drum of Endurance in your item build, I would recommend replacing the Bracer with a Wraith Band for stats (bonus HP, mana and damage) purposes.
IV. WHAT TO DO AND WHAT NOT TO DO ON THE OFF-LANE
This is probably the most essential part of playing Bounty Hunter on the off-lane. I will again reiterate the three problems you will encounter on the off-lane: lack of experience points, lack of gold and having to constantly read your opponents’ heroes.
Why does Bounty Hunter suit the off-lane so well? It’s because of these three problems. The lack of experience points is not detrimental to Bounty Hunter as a hero in the team because Bounty Hunter is not a carry hero and neither is it a hero that depends on high levels for its skills to be effective. And by that I mean Track. As long as you have Shadow Walk, you should not suffer too heavily on the off-lane and not give away unnecessary deaths to your opponents.
The lack of gold also complements Bounty Hunter well, because Bounty Hunter is a hero that doesn’t rely on the big items to be effective. A simple Phase Boots, Bottle and Drum of Endurance (even without this) can last you through the early phase right up till the 20 minute mark. Another reason why this factor works in favour of Bounty Hunter is that you will practically begin helping out in team fights/tower fights around the 10-15 minute mark. This allows you to score some Track kills if your team does well, and from there you should be able to get some additional income.
Reading opponents’ heroes takes a lot of practise and it isn’t something you can work on overnight. If you’re an inexperienced player, you would generally fare poorly on the off-lane. You’d probably die a couple of times, complain about not having farm, and be extremely under-leveled below your opponents’ support heroes. As I mentioned above, for Bounty Hunter, these are not major problems but you have to know the limitations of each problem when you encounter them. Reading what your opponents’ support heroes are doing is important as you need to know if you’re getting ganked or if they have left the lane to gank elsewhere. Of course having Observer Wards would be useful, but if they have Sentry Wards up, you need to know how to move around the lane and not be caught in a vulnerable position.
Also, reading your opponents’ carry hero’s farm is vital. You need to be the judge of how much he/she is farming relative to your team’s carry hero (if you have one). From there, you need to set the tempo of the game for your team and start directing the flow in which the game should go. Again, this isn’t something you can do overnight but something that you need constant practise to achieve. Patience is key to mastering these concepts, but it can be done.
Okay, now to the point:
What to Do
- Try to stay within experience range of creeps (doesn’t matter if they get denied) by making use of the trees/fog/terrain - Identify pulls (if any) so that you know when it’s safe to take a creep or two or move into experience range - Constantly check to see if there are any Sentry Wards/Dust of Appearance up on the heroes you’re facing - Block opponents’ neutral spawn by utilising Shadow Walk to prevent pulls and allow the creeps to push towards your tower (be wary for wards and Shadow Walk cooldown) - Harass the opponent carry hero when the supports are not in the lane with Jinada (this is much more effective than you might think) - Try to constantly Track an enemy hero for vision and movement speed bonus (if possible, target the support heroes to identify their position) - When you have Track up, try to keep a TP scroll to help out in fights elsewhere
What Not to Do
- Rely on Shadow Walk to last hit or gain experience points (this will instigate your opponents to commit to Sentry Wards/Dust of Appearance to kill you) - Over-extend when taking last hits more often than not (this will probably get you caught out of position once every ten times and that alone is enough to set your team back) - Extreme tower hugging (only resort to this if your opponent has Sentry Wards and a very aggressive lane, but even so you should do other things like spotting for rune spawns) - Be greedy (learn to accept that you have to fall back at times, it’s better to be safe than sorry; you can always make up for lost gold later with Track kills) - Chasing down and attacking enemy supports during pulls made against you (unless you are sure of the kill or have assistance from Sun Strike, Thundergod’s Wrath, etc)
A lot of this are just the basic ideas of how you should play on the off-lane with Bounty Hunter (you can consider them conjectures if you want), and in practise a lot of this might not be so black and white. Experience and game sense plays a big factor when you play on the off-lane, especially the latter. The only way to work on this is to play more games, and keep the assumption on the back of your head that your opponent is looking to kill you if you present to them even the slightest of chances.
Note: Also, always be wary of the possibility that your opponents may dive your tower to attempt a kill on you when their creep wave is pushing the tower at a strong rate (about 7/8 creeps or more).
V. READING THE FLOW OF THE GAME
This is another important part when it comes to playing Bounty Hunter on the off-lane. This part involves two things, namely knowing when to stay in the lane and knowing when to leave the lane. As an off-lane hero, you will find that staying in the lane for too long would prove to be detrimental to you and your team. Hence, your immediate reaction is either to call for help or to roam to the middle lane trying to achieve something. However, without core items (Phase Boots or Bottle) you will not be able to get much done. This is why it is essential that you do not give away kills as you will lose gold and at the same time slow down your item progression.
If your team is winning the other lanes convincingly, it’s best that you stick to your lane and hold it out. It doesn’t matter if you’re not doing well, but you’re drawing the opponents’ supports to you and building space for your team to take the lead. As long as you do not give away kills, you’re doing your job right and the onus is upon your team to get their lanes right too. However, even if your team doesn’t do well in the laning phase, do not panic. Bounty Hunter is a hero that allows your team to catch back up and draw level with your opponents if you just win one big battle.
If your opponents are playing a very aggressive push strategy, you should try to participate in defending your towers as often as you can (this means TP-ing to help). Normally in a game with Bounty Hunter, if your opponents try really hard to get a tower, they will find a hero or two dying in that process. With Track kills on those heroes, you’re basically making up for the gold lost from the tower falling. One thing to note in these engagements is never poke at your opponents with Jinada + Shadow Walk, and never attack when Shadow Walk is on cooldown (situational depending on the tide of the battle).
If your team is the one applying a lot of aggression, it is good to participate in tower fights as well. Getting a couple of Track kills for your team is added bonus for the tower kills that you potentially can take from the early pushes.
It is important to realise that Bounty Hunter is as much a team hero as it is an individual hero. Yes, you may score kills on your own but in team fights, it’s a hero than can excel brilliantly and scales well into the late game. Some rules of thumb when you approach the mid-game:
- Do not roam around aimlessly following opponents’ heroes - Do not get greedy by constantly hunting heroes who are jungling (may work once or twice at the start but be wary of detection after that) - Do not steal the safe lane farm from your carry (unless you’re the carry for the team) - Identify potential areas that your opponent might have warded (so that you know when you can use Shadow Walk to benefit you) - Try to Track any hero that comes close to you/your lane and always Track heroes during fights to get Track kills - Check for rune spawns if possible; and be careful of wards at the river - Always participate in fights! This is probably the most important part since Bounty Hunter contributes and benefits heavily from battles
VI. FOLLOW-UP ITEM BUILDS FOR MID-LATE GAME
Core Items
The above is what I deem as the core items for Bounty Hunter (on the fence on Monkey King Bar). If you’ve ever played a game with Bounty Hunter, you’d realise that damage output and survivability are essential in the mid-late game.
Getting the Black King Bar is situational as you might not be the focus fire of your opponents but it is vital to get it even after you have gone for Desolator first. However, I would recommend it as your first item unless you have an extremely good start to the game where a Desolator could help you two/three shots-kill an enemy hero. Otherwise, always BKB first as it gives you good team fight survivability and aids you in dealing damage throughout the fight.
Desolator is good for a couple of things as it gives you really good damage and at the same time lowers the enemy’s armor. With Jinada and Track, this is a great item as it allows you to deal massive amounts of damage during team fights as you can chase down heroes quickly and get many hits in.
Monkey King Bar is a good late game item for Bounty Hunter because of the damage output it offers. It works well against heroes like Luna or Void who have evasion in the late game (Luna with Butterfly).
As many posters in the guide have suggested, Abyssal Blade is a viable core item for Bounty Hunter. I have not had much experience with it, but the +100 damage and 2 second stun (even against Magic Immune targets) really does pack a strong punch against any hero whether carry or support. It is possible to get this before Desolator if you're having a really good early to mid game, as the item is split into a Skull Basher and a Sacred Relic. The 2 second stun from the item allows you to shut down your opponents' main carry during fights and this is crucial against heroes like Void or Sven.
Situational Items
You should and only get Vladmir’s Offering after you’ve got your core items up. It’s good to support your team’s melee carry and Vladmir's aura grants bonus damage and armor. So only get it if your team can benefit from this during team fights (normally when your team is the more aggressive team).
HoT is essential if you’re going to be the one leading the frontline of your team in battles. It’s always good to get it after you get Desolator so that you still have enough damage output during battles. However, I wouldn’t recommend getting this if you find yourself and your team severely under-farmed heading into the mid-late game transition (if that is the case, a Vanguard will suffice).
Only get BoT (by selling off Phase Boots) when you have enough for buy-back and run out of item slots for TP scroll.
Lastly, Daedalus might be a decent item choice when your team does not have much damage output in the late game. I would normally get it (though I didn't realise it) when my team does not have much burst damage come late game against heroes that are pretty hard to kill.
VII. AUTHOR'S REMARKS
I do not have the biggest experience in playing DotA 2 at a competitive level but I watch a lot of it and I have participated in my fair share of competitive DotA during the WarCraft III days. I have spent 8 years playing this game, and have experienced the times of VP, MYM and SK during the .48b era and then the China dominance that followed, up till now. I wasn’t a competitive player back then but I played competitively for 3 years and achieved average results (one semifinal and a lot of quarterfinal/3rd round exits) in local LAN competitions in a place where there were teams like Kingsurf, DNA-SK, Cybertime, Zenith, AEON.sg, and many more that was competing for top honours.
Play safe, play smart, and play right. Know your role in the team, and know your team’s capabilities. Do not rush into doing anything you shouldn’t be doing and do not attempt to over-commit to get kills. One final point to note is that Smoke of Deceit plays a big factor in winning/losing games, so make sure you utilise it well with your team because Bounty Hunter and Track allows for a lot of opportunities to execute perfect Smoke ganks. Take the above mentioned advices lightly as they do not represent exactly how you should play a hero on the off-lane. These are just meant for Bounty Hunter and what I feel is best for the hero. Do not engrave the guidance above into your head, but just spare a thought for it may come to help you when you play the hero on the off-lane.
My personal record with Bounty Hunter isn't too impressive as I started off without knowing the basics to playing on the off-lane. But now that I am better at it, I wish to share my knowledge and my understanding of this hero and its fitting role as an off-lane hero.
"For the right price, anything."
Changelog: 19/12 - Guide published 21/12 - Updated item builds, skill build and some additional explanations 22/12 - Proposed update (better explanation with screenshots)
A very good guide, I should say. If you omit terms like jinada, track wtc.. it suddenly turns out to be a wonderful overall dota guide.
One point is about shuriken toss. It is known that most mana/point efficient level of ST is level two. There is no point to invest it more than two until you max your other skills. My suggestion would be level up ST to lvl 2 in your skill build at level 7 and keep it level 2 in the second build.
Another thing is, your first build aims to survive against a trilane or a very hard lane to get xp/gold by any means. But you suggest to leave shadow walk level 1 until maxing jinada. This looks like a luxury for a hard lane. I suggest you to take another level of SW because(as you already mentioned) it allows you to be perma invis as far as your mana pool permits. Perma invis also good to fool the opponents to trick the lane presence.
Also BH players always have to look at the opponents' inventory to understand if there is any reveal material there. Especially supports. Also roaming the nearby jungle to detect dust/ward ganks are essential too.
A very good guide, I should say. If you omit terms like jinada, track wtc.. it suddenly turns out to be a wonderful overall dota guide.
One point is about shuriken toss. It is known that most mana/point efficient level of ST is level two. There is no point to invest it more than two until you max your other skills. My suggestion would be level up ST to lvl 2 in your skill build at level 7 and keep it level 2 in the second build.
Another thing is, your first build aims to survive against a trilane or a very hard lane to get xp/gold by any means. But you suggest to leave shadow walk level 1 until maxing jinada. This looks like a luxury for a hard lane. I suggest you to take another level of SW because(as you already mentioned) it allows you to be perma invis as far as your mana pool permits. Perma invis also good to fool the opponents to trick the lane presence.
Also BH players always have to look at the opponents' inventory to understand if there is any reveal material there. Especially supports. Also roaming the nearby jungle to detect dust/ward ganks are essential too.
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I agree with your first point. At Level 1, Shuriken Toss is a bit of a weak spell and is only useful for cancelling channeling abilities. That's why I also mentioned I mix in a little of both into my game as well occasionally. But I don't generally utilise it until I leave the lane to start defending/pushing towers, and that's usually when the hero hits Level 7-8.
I generally wouldn't advise on staying invisible constantly unless you actually do it right from the start. I find that the problem with taking Level 2 Shadow Walk early on (Levels 2-5) is that you suffer from the long Jinada cooldown and because you're not leveling quickly and/or opponents have detection, it doesn't really matter if you take Level 1 or Level 2. I guess in competitive games, this would be more viable.
I'll try to fit those two points in later. Thanks. (:
You can get damage while getting utility too. Daedalus/crystalys only gives you damage on the first hit, the crit is not possible (because of jinada). So instead, why not get basher into abyssal?
It gives more damage on the first hit, and it gives you utility in the form of a small amount of health and the stun chance. Daedalus is particularly less useful on BH because he generally doesn't build attack speed items. Once you have enough gold to build daedalus, an abyssal gives you far more utility for only about 1k gold more. You can put a 2 second stun on a magic immune target and your entire team can hit them at will.
I especially like AdmiralBulldog's standard BH build for this. He basically builds the same items every game, but in differing orders depending on how he does and what's necessary. I.E. he'll sometimes go for the BKB before a basher or vice versa. (also he builds deso more sparingly, I think)
You can get damage while getting utility too. Daedalus/crystalys only gives you damage on the first hit, the crit is not possible (because of jinada). So instead, why not get basher into abyssal?
It gives more damage on the first hit, and it gives you utility in the form of a small amount of health and the stun chance. Daedalus is particularly less useful on BH because he generally doesn't build attack speed items. Once you have enough gold to build daedalus, an abyssal gives you far more utility for only about 1k gold more. You can put a 2 second stun on a magic immune target and your entire team can hit them at will.
I especially like AdmiralBulldog's standard BH build for this. He basically builds the same items every game, but in differing orders depending on how he does and what's necessary. I.E. he'll sometimes go for the BKB before a basher or vice versa. (also he builds deso more sparingly, I think)
Could you elaborate more on the critical being not possible? I'm pretty sure I've hit two or three crits in a row that weren't Jinada hits. And with BKB + Phase Boots + Track, you should be able to get in a couple of hits in with ease. I agree that BH doesn't go for attack speed items, but with armor reduction from Desolator, I find the damage output from Daedalus to be quite good.
I've rarely tried some of the "newer" items (like Veil of Discord, Abyssal Blade, Rod of Atos to name a few) being the classic WarCraft III DotA player that I was. Although it's very costly, but I think the +100 damage and the 2 second stun is too hard to neglect. I'll try to incorporate Abyssal Blade into the guide. Thanks for the feedback. Heh. I'll probably start experimenting with it too! (:
You can get damage while getting utility too. Daedalus/crystalys only gives you damage on the first hit, the crit is not possible (because of jinada). So instead, why not get basher into abyssal?
It gives more damage on the first hit, and it gives you utility in the form of a small amount of health and the stun chance. Daedalus is particularly less useful on BH because he generally doesn't build attack speed items. Once you have enough gold to build daedalus, an abyssal gives you far more utility for only about 1k gold more. You can put a 2 second stun on a magic immune target and your entire team can hit them at will.
I especially like AdmiralBulldog's standard BH build for this. He basically builds the same items every game, but in differing orders depending on how he does and what's necessary. I.E. he'll sometimes go for the BKB before a basher or vice versa. (also he builds deso more sparingly, I think)
Could you elaborate more on the critical being not possible? I'm pretty sure I've hit two or three crits in a row that weren't Jinada hits. And with BKB + Phase Boots + Track, you should be able to get in a couple of hits in with ease. I agree that BH doesn't go for attack speed items, but with armor reduction from Desolator, I find the damage output from Daedalus to be quite good.
I've rarely tried some of the "newer" items (like Veil of Discord, Abyssal Blade, Rod of Atos to name a few) being the classic WarCraft III DotA player that I was. Although it's very costly, but I think the +100 damage and the 2 second stun is too hard to neglect. I'll try to incorporate Abyssal Blade into the guide. Thanks for the feedback. Heh. I'll probably start experimenting with it too! (:
your first hit which is a crit will be from jinada not deadalus and then for 5 seconds you may get lucky but you don't really have high attack speed so really it's not as useful as getting basher +health and then moving into abyssal if you're winning a lot. +stun.
Really good guide, I like how you've covered the dos and don'ts. however I feel tranquil boots is also a valid option especially if you're getting suppressed badly in the laning stage.
"Play safe, play smart, and play right. Know your role in the team, and know your team’s capabilities." Couldn't have been said better.
Thanks so much for this guide. Bounty hunter is truly one of my favorite heroes in my short Dota "career" and I love to play him in the off lane. Start roaming as soon as I get track and give the lane to another farmer or pressure that lane to disrupt the enemies main carry.
It does take a ton of skill (which I still don't have) to play an off laner, let alone one with a so-so escape mechanism (sure shadow walk is great but is no windrun or surge). I shall follow all you advices in my road to becoming the best BH I can.
On December 19 2012 20:48 kaykaykay wrote: Really good guide, I like how you've covered the dos and don'ts. however I feel tranquil boots is also a valid option especially if you're getting suppressed badly in the laning stage.
"Play safe, play smart, and play right. Know your role in the team, and know your team’s capabilities." Couldn't have been said better.
Yeah tranquils are a really valid choice but only if you are doing poorly in your lane, like one or 2 deaths and sentries everywhere. The thing is phase gives you dmg and chasing ability, things that are really really needed for the first ganks. Tranquils I found better when I am behind since I can juke around and use them when escaping. Ideally phase + drums + bottle is the BH gankers dream for early game but when I am behind in farm or xp I like to go Urn + Tranquils (unless some other ganker in my team has a urn of course) so I can catch up via ganks, teamfights and track gold and get the regular Drums and Phase. Sometimes when you are behind you also end up being more of a utility hero so I end up with Vlads, Drums, Tranquils, Urn and maybe a "luxury" BKB lol and that really helps out when you have 2 or more melee heroes in your team like a Magnus, Sven, Naix lineup for example.
I really dislike the current competitive build that most use, that is to max Toss first. I think it's a poor choice of skill build, but it's probably because they don't rely on Jinada attacks too much. They prefer the range 'nuke' from Toss. But it certainly is a bad build for pubs.
I agree on Laserist in that you should get Toss to level 2 first. I usually go WW Jinada Jinada Toss Toss Track -> max Jinada -> level 2 WW -> max Toss -> max WW. Ideally, I want to delay level 1 WW as long as possible. With pull camps blocked, you're relatively safe near the tower without WW. Still, chances are you will need to skill WW by 4. Be flexible and not skill anything until you see your lane.
Items wise, I personally think Daed is a waste of gold. You will probably not have that many high tier items anyway. 3 big items would be a luxury, and BKB/Heart/Deso/MKB/AC/Basher would all be more useful than Daed. Even if you have full item set, it still needs to compete with BF/Manta/Vlad etc.
Your guide in general is spot on. BH can and should function as a hero without much farm. Most important thing of BH is Track. Never 'forget' to cast track in a kill. Track is just too good. It pains me to see BH players farming creeps all day, when heroes probably give much more gold.
Would you consider Orb of Venom to be a useful item, even if you're playing suicide role? Ive seen Trixi use it in recent games and it looks like it works really well. I just want more input on the matter.
On December 20 2012 02:43 DucK- wrote: I really dislike the current competitive build that most use, that is to max Toss first. I think it's a poor choice of skill build, but it's probably because they don't rely on Jinada attacks too much. They prefer the range 'nuke' from Toss. But it certainly is a bad build for pubs.
I agree on Laserist in that you should get Toss to level 2 first. I usually go WW Jinada Jinada Toss Toss Track -> max Jinada -> level 2 WW -> max Toss -> max WW. Ideally, I want to delay level 1 WW as long as possible. With pull camps blocked, you're relatively safe near the tower without WW. Still, chances are you will need to skill WW by 4. Be flexible and not skill anything until you see your lane.
Items wise, I personally think Daed is a waste of gold. You will probably not have that many high tier items anyway. 3 big items would be a luxury, and BKB/Heart/Deso/MKB/AC/Basher would all be more useful than Daed. Even if you have full item set, it still needs to compete with BF/Manta/Vlad etc.
Your guide in general is spot on. BH can and should function as a hero without much farm. Most important thing of BH is Track. Never 'forget' to cast track in a kill. Track is just too good. It pains me to see BH players farming creeps all day, when heroes probably give much more gold.
Shuriken max is more or less required in competitive games because of how much better competitive teams are at suppressing a hard laner's development. It's not all that unexpected in some cases to see a hard laner suppressed down to level 2 or 3 in the first 7 minutes. At that point, planning around BH being able to actually even USE Jinada is basically suicide. Until you start racking up a lot of free gold from track kills in teamfights, you're basically a caster that spams track and Shuriken from max range, which is why Shuriken max is the build of choice in those situations.
In pub games players are generally poor at controlling the lane and will push the lane across very quickly. Level 6 and Boots+Bottle by 6 minutes is fairly normal, and in that case your development is smooth enough that you can probably afford to get Jinada earlier if you play smart in fights. Shuriken max is still a good option if you're behind, though.
Really good guide, I like how you've covered the dos and don'ts. however I feel tranquil boots is also a valid option especially if you're getting suppressed badly in the laning stage.
"Play safe, play smart, and play right. Know your role in the team, and know your team’s capabilities." Couldn't have been said better.
Thanks so much for this guide. Bounty hunter is truly one of my favorite heroes in my short Dota "career" and I love to play him in the off lane. Start roaming as soon as I get track and give the lane to another farmer or pressure that lane to disrupt the enemies main carry.
It does take a ton of skill (which I still don't have) to play an off laner, let alone one with a so-so escape mechanism (sure shadow walk is great but is no windrun or surge). I shall follow all you advices in my road to becoming the best BH I can.
On December 19 2012 20:48 kaykaykay wrote: Really good guide, I like how you've covered the dos and don'ts. however I feel tranquil boots is also a valid option especially if you're getting suppressed badly in the laning stage.
"Play safe, play smart, and play right. Know your role in the team, and know your team’s capabilities." Couldn't have been said better.
Yeah tranquils are a really valid choice but only if you are doing poorly in your lane, like one or 2 deaths and sentries everywhere. The thing is phase gives you dmg and chasing ability, things that are really really needed for the first ganks. Tranquils I found better when I am behind since I can juke around and use them when escaping. Ideally phase + drums + bottle is the BH gankers dream for early game but when I am behind in farm or xp I like to go Urn + Tranquils (unless some other ganker in my team has a urn of course) so I can catch up via ganks, teamfights and track gold and get the regular Drums and Phase. Sometimes when you are behind you also end up being more of a utility hero so I end up with Vlads, Drums, Tranquils, Urn and maybe a "luxury" BKB lol and that really helps out when you have 2 or more melee heroes in your team like a Magnus, Sven, Naix lineup for example.
Thanks. Although Tranquil Boots in general is a good item, I just feel that it doesn't match well with Bounty Hunter. When you're limited in your farm, you should get the most efficient items possible, and I feel that Phase Boots would be best in that scenario. If you're relying on Tranquil Boots instead of Tango to stay in the lane, you're probably being too ambitious in trying to get creeps or opponents have really good spell casters (in which you should drop back more than risk being killed). Even if mid lane has a Bottle, the item is still good for Bounty Hunter because you essentially use the Bottle to recoup mana (after fights), not HP.
I really dislike the current competitive build that most use, that is to max Toss first. I think it's a poor choice of skill build, but it's probably because they don't rely on Jinada attacks too much. They prefer the range 'nuke' from Toss. But it certainly is a bad build for pubs.
I agree on Laserist in that you should get Toss to level 2 first. I usually go WW Jinada Jinada Toss Toss Track -> max Jinada -> level 2 WW -> max Toss -> max WW. Ideally, I want to delay level 1 WW as long as possible. With pull camps blocked, you're relatively safe near the tower without WW. Still, chances are you will need to skill WW by 4. Be flexible and not skill anything until you see your lane.
Items wise, I personally think Daed is a waste of gold. You will probably not have that many high tier items anyway. 3 big items would be a luxury, and BKB/Heart/Deso/MKB/AC/Basher would all be more useful than Daed. Even if you have full item set, it still needs to compete with BF/Manta/Vlad etc.
Your guide in general is spot on. BH can and should function as a hero without much farm. Most important thing of BH is Track. Never 'forget' to cast track in a kill. Track is just too good. It pains me to see BH players farming creeps all day, when heroes probably give much more gold.
Well, the good thing about getting Shadow Walk first is that it allows you to scout out your enemy jungle to see if there are any heroes waiting to pick you off at Level 1 and also block the 0:30 neutral spawn to prevent pulls. Yeah, maybe I'll have to rewrite the item choice on getting Daedalus. I realise most of the times I get Daedalus is when my team needs burst damage since I'm basically the damage dealer during fights (games with Pudge/Warlock solo mid or three spell casters taking the safe lane).
On December 20 2012 04:12 Emnjay808 wrote: Would you consider Orb of Venom to be a useful item, even if you're playing suicide role? Ive seen Trixi use it in recent games and it looks like it works really well. I just want more input on the matter.
I wouldn't consider this a suicide role for Bounty Hunter since the role fits the hero so well. Anyway, I don't think it would be a good investment unless you have a really good start (like getting a kill or your team takes down a tower in the opening 5 minutes forcing the opponents' supports to be absent from your lane). Maybe it would work as a utility item in the mid-game (for additional slow) but as people mentioned, when BKB itself at times is hard to come by that 275 gold could be better spent.
drums + bottle is generally a waste of gold. also you should mention to new bh players they need to check other heroes inventory constantly. and suiciding for a track kill is almost always worth it.
On December 20 2012 10:44 Ottoxlol wrote: this isnt windrunner...
Alleria is the person who made the guide's username. The guide is on Gondar the Bounty Hunter.
I noticed that you mention vladmir's offering to be built after your core items. Is there ever a time where one would consider getting vlads after phase boots as most pros are doing nowadays?
On December 20 2012 10:44 Ottoxlol wrote: this isnt windrunner...
Alleria is the person who made the guide's username. The guide is on Gondar the Bounty Hunter.
I noticed that you mention vladmir's offering to be built after your core items. Is there ever a time where one would consider getting vlads after phase boots as most pros are doing nowadays?
noobs also copy pros by buying bottle and doesnt use it properly. and what pros are we talking about here thats getting vlads after phase.
On December 20 2012 10:44 Ottoxlol wrote: this isnt windrunner...
Alleria is the person who made the guide's username. The guide is on Gondar the Bounty Hunter.
I noticed that you mention vladmir's offering to be built after your core items. Is there ever a time where one would consider getting vlads after phase boots as most pros are doing nowadays?
Vlad is always bad early since it contributes most of the time as percentage. You need raw dmg/attack speed to use it in full potential. Just don't get it early or leave it to the 3rd or 4th position. I just suggest to buy it to lycan and ursa early, because of roshan and effective jungling.
On December 20 2012 10:44 Ottoxlol wrote: this isnt windrunner...
Alleria is the person who made the guide's username. The guide is on Gondar the Bounty Hunter.
I noticed that you mention vladmir's offering to be built after your core items. Is there ever a time where one would consider getting vlads after phase boots as most pros are doing nowadays?
noobs also copy pros by buying bottle and doesnt use it properly. and what pros are we talking about here thats getting vlads after phase.
Here's one example. I've just been seeing it crop up a lot lately as a 'standard pro build' even if they aren't shut down early. The reasoning is that the armorit provides is great, and really strengthens bounty hunter's already great armor. Also, it allows Gondar to not have to go back to base very often; the mana regen is great, and the life steal is okay.
I've been seeing it crop up with drums, and other aura based items mostly.
see what they try to accomplish with vlads is make their teamfight slightly stronger. in pubs you would rather be more of a killer than an aura provider, you have to try to control the game with your presence.
On December 20 2012 21:50 Laserist wrote: Vlad is always bad early since it contributes most of the time as percentage. You need raw dmg/attack speed to use it in full potential. Just don't get it early or leave it to the 3rd or 4th position. I just suggest to buy it to lycan and ursa early, because of roshan and effective jungling.
bh is usually played as a 3, so by your post he SHOULD be getting vlads It's different if you're playing in a pub (in which case you should go for more individual items probably) vs playing with people you know and are comfortable with, in which case you can get more usage out of the vlads by grouping up faster
On December 20 2012 21:50 Laserist wrote: Vlad is always bad early since it contributes most of the time as percentage. You need raw dmg/attack speed to use it in full potential. Just don't get it early or leave it to the 3rd or 4th position. I just suggest to buy it to lycan and ursa early, because of roshan and effective jungling.
bh is usually played as a 3, so by your post he SHOULD be getting vlads It's different if you're playing in a pub (in which case you should go for more individual items probably) vs playing with people you know and are comfortable with, in which case you can get more usage out of the vlads by grouping up faster
Np. My post is entirely about not getting vlads to BH, at least in early game. This is purely how vlads works, which contributes percentage based and you need some raw material to improve. It might be IAS, damage, stats etc..
About position I wrote 3rd OR 4th, which means leave it to the hero that below you in terms of farm. You can play BH from 1st to 4th depending on your strategy. It would be ideal in every role, but doesn't matter. Early game BH needs some raw damage due to Jinada and maybe some survivibility. Vlad doesn't contribute these needs. Don't come with damage aura pls.
When playing BH in offlane and facing against an enemy jungler I tend to leave the lane and harrass the enemy jungler as hard as I can. Since junglers are the most underganked heroes in pub games you do your team a big favor keeping him low, as well as being able to steal a creep or two. Maybe even catching the enemy jungler offguard
On December 21 2012 02:46 Zumm wrote: When playing BH in offlane and facing against an enemy jungler I tend to leave the lane and harrass the enemy jungler as hard as I can. Since junglers are the most underganked heroes in pub games you do your team a big favor keeping him low, as well as being able to steal a creep or two. Maybe even catching the enemy jungler offguard
you're also doing the enemy team a big favor by being underleveled.
On December 21 2012 02:46 Zumm wrote: When playing BH in offlane and facing against an enemy jungler I tend to leave the lane and harrass the enemy jungler as hard as I can. Since junglers are the most underganked heroes in pub games you do your team a big favor keeping him low, as well as being able to steal a creep or two. Maybe even catching the enemy jungler offguard
you're also doing the enemy team a big favor by being underleveled.
If they have rev wards/dust and the lane is pushed its often too dangerous to go into lanes anyways, rotating into jungle with the potential to gank mid is one of the best things to do in that situations.
the guide seems mostly fine, the main issues I can see is the lack of what to do when you're zoned close to 100% of the time, which happens quite often in higher-level games. As others have stated, the lack of lv2 WW and at least lv2 (and oftentimes lv4) shuriken are fairly major issues with the build and should at least be mentioned. You also won't be going phase 100% of the time, you'll find tranq very useful in many situations.
On December 21 2012 09:24 how2TL wrote: If a creep is denied between 1000 and 1200 range (1200 range being the exp range otherwise), I thought you don't get any exp at all?
Not saying you're wrong, but I've never heard of this mechanic.
drums + bottle is generally a waste of gold. also you should mention to new bh players they need to check other heroes inventory constantly. and suiciding for a track kill is almost always worth it.
Interesting. Considering it increases attack speed and movement speed, I find Drums to be a great item most of the time. Since you're going to be participating in fights more often than not, Drums benefits your team immensely in my opinion. I'm always on the fence about getting Bottle, but I find that in games where I don't, I won't be able to help out my team as much (mana constraints).
On December 21 2012 09:24 how2TL wrote: If a creep is denied between 1000 and 1200 range (1200 range being the exp range otherwise), I thought you don't get any exp at all?
Yeah, I've never heard of this either. It would be interesting though if this was actually true. I've always thought that as long as you're in experience range you'll get experience; doesn't matter deny or no deny.
On December 21 2012 09:24 how2TL wrote: If a creep is denied between 1000 and 1200 range (1200 range being the exp range otherwise), I thought you don't get any exp at all?
Thanks for the info, I missed that mechanic and seems to be very important for offlane heroes.
On December 20 2012 11:45 aintz wrote: drums + bottle is generally a waste of gold. also you should mention to new bh players they need to check other heroes inventory constantly. and suiciding for a track kill is almost always worth it.
If you ain't getting Drums + Bottle, what do you suggest? Please don't say BF.
On December 20 2012 11:45 aintz wrote: drums + bottle is generally a waste of gold. also you should mention to new bh players they need to check other heroes inventory constantly. and suiciding for a track kill is almost always worth it.
If you ain't getting Drums + Bottle, what do you suggest? Please don't say BF.
Urn is very good on BH, and for midgame trying things like necrobook can be surprisingly effective
On December 20 2012 10:44 Ottoxlol wrote: this isnt windrunner...
Alleria is the person who made the guide's username. The guide is on Gondar the Bounty Hunter.
I noticed that you mention vladmir's offering to be built after your core items. Is there ever a time where one would consider getting vlads after phase boots as most pros are doing nowadays?
noobs also copy pros by buying bottle and doesnt use it properly. and what pros are we talking about here thats getting vlads after phase.
LightOfHeaven almost always gets Vlads as first item when he plays BH
On December 20 2012 11:45 aintz wrote: drums + bottle is generally a waste of gold. also you should mention to new bh players they need to check other heroes inventory constantly. and suiciding for a track kill is almost always worth it.
If you ain't getting Drums + Bottle, what do you suggest? Please don't say BF.
Why would battle fury not be good?
I find that as soon as I put on Perseverance, I never have to worry about Mana or Health, so adding 65 bonus damage and 35% AoE damage is a nice thing for me. Especially because after that I can farm enough gold for monkeybar and deadalus in no time.
I am totaly new to dota but I love the Bounty hunter playstyle.
On December 20 2012 11:45 aintz wrote: drums + bottle is generally a waste of gold. also you should mention to new bh players they need to check other heroes inventory constantly. and suiciding for a track kill is almost always worth it.
If you ain't getting Drums + Bottle, what do you suggest? Please don't say BF.
Why would battle fury not be good?
I find that as soon as I put on Perseverance, I never have to worry about Mana or Health, so adding 65 bonus damage and 35% AoE damage is a nice thing for me. Especially because after that I can farm enough gold for monkeybar and deadalus in no time.
I am totaly new to dota but I love the Bounty hunter playstyle.
Generally Bounty Hunter excels at ganking / sniping squishies (which provides you with gold and your teammates with the extra track kill gold) rather than farming big items. It's okay to play BH as a hard carry, but it's not optimal and there are better heroes for that job.
On December 20 2012 11:45 aintz wrote: drums + bottle is generally a waste of gold. also you should mention to new bh players they need to check other heroes inventory constantly. and suiciding for a track kill is almost always worth it.
If you ain't getting Drums + Bottle, what do you suggest? Please don't say BF.
Why would battle fury not be good?
I find that as soon as I put on Perseverance, I never have to worry about Mana or Health, so adding 65 bonus damage and 35% AoE damage is a nice thing for me. Especially because after that I can farm enough gold for monkeybar and deadalus in no time.
I am totaly new to dota but I love the Bounty hunter playstyle.
Generally Bounty Hunter excels at ganking / sniping squishies (which provides you with gold and your teammates with the extra track kill gold) rather than farming big items. It's okay to play BH as a hard carry, but it's not optimal and there are better heroes for that job.
Okay so considering I only play Pubs at the moment I don't have to feel bad about enjoying the BF, but should be prepared to not get it in favour of higher +damage items, if playing with a dedicated 5 man team?
Bounty Hunter is never (well... should never) picked or played as a 1st position farming hero. You should not be farming creeps, you should be farming heroes with track, leaving all the creeps for your 1st position carry.
Battlefury excels in accelerating the speed at which a hero farms creeps, not heroes. For regen, get a bottle instead (even if another teammate already has one) and bottlecrow if you can't get the runes. Get drums, BKB and desolator and be infinitely more useful to your team than if you had gotten a battlefury.
There are actually certain game states that do require Battle Fury (enemy just 5-manning, rest of your team isn't strong enough for you to win 5v5s--can use Battle Fury to build up a gold lead from the fact that they're always 5-man), but it's quite situational.
First up, awesome guide. I'm starting to play offlane bounty hunter a bit more and this was a great read! However I was missing 1 thing, or rather 1 item: Poor Man's Shield. Should I not get this item on bounty hunter? Or are there specific circumstances where I should get it? Should I get it before or after boots?
So we like this thread and want to use it as the official BH thread on TL. However, the original writer has long left us, and thus we need a volunteer to take ownership of this thread and maintain it according to our Strategy Guidelines. This will require you to maintain and update a Table of Contents in the start of the OP.
If anyone is willing, please post here or PM Yango, Heyoka, or myself.
Yo boys, I'm going to start playing some offlane BH, fun hero to play, great roaming potential early on.
I did one game today, a pure stomp, 23 kills, orchid dagon 5 and casual BKB. I like dagon if you can get it before everyone gets BKB (it's fine when it's only one dude). Shuriken is a great nuke combined with dagon, you kill supports easily.
What is better to max as second in your opinion? This game I maxed shuriken because I had nukers with me (tiny nyx), but then I followed Torte de Lini's guide and went 4-4-1. I think it's right, but when can I get more points in shadow walk? What is the best situation to get it? And I'm a bit lost in terms of items. Went orchid, worked well. Which item is the best in all situations?
This hero relies on execution, not itembuilds. Knowing when to engage in small teamfights, avoiding 5v5 cuz the hero sucks at it before bkb, checking out enemy jungle etc. Basically being active all the time and not being obvious about it. Skillwise I suggest going 2-1-2 into max toss, then jinada. Lvl 2 invis duration is very useful when soaking exp from pulls, fucking up junglers and it gives you almost the same dmg as lvl1 shuriken.
You can get a second point as early as three to be more efficient if it's a lane you both can safely remain in and a composition you can't get asap ganks in (that you would want maxed nuke by seven for). If you're getting shut down in lane early don't bother leveling it until eight because you're behind on xp. I would always get it before working on jenada since you need to invis a lot and level one shadow walk sucks. The exception could be if you're snowballing quickly into an early orchid and have that excess mana pool and regen. I wouldn't generally recommend that item build except vs heroes like am or storm or weaver, etc.
a third point into shuriken will only give you +50 (+40 if you factor in magic resistance) damage , a second point into jinada will give you more effective return if you have phase boots , poor mans and drums , i usually go 2-2-2-1 at 7
I used to max jinada first, as toss has shit scaling from 2-3. But these days I usually max toss first because after all rank 4 toss is a decent nuke. As for ww, if I'm doing well in lane I generally skill the second point later.
I think c9 with their random items BH has shown how he doesn't necessarily need to be built with DPS. Your main purpose is just to contribute via track. I personally dislike building him that way too. But I also dislike getting blink force like how they played him. I prefer getting dagon, or orchid if it helps. Bkb only if necessary.
On August 23 2014 17:51 DucK- wrote: I used to max jinada first, as toss has shit scaling from 2-3. But these days I usually max toss first because after all rank 4 toss is a decent nuke. As for ww, if I'm doing well in lane I generally skill the second point later.
I think c9 with their random items BH has shown how he doesn't necessarily need to be built with DPS. Your main purpose is just to contribute via track. I personally dislike building him that way too. But I also dislike getting blink force like how they played him. I prefer getting dagon, or orchid if it helps. Bkb only if necessary.
I believe one of the main attractions of blink is you can track someone then shift-queue a blink away, and they have no way of killing you. One of my friends has been playing a lot of support / roaming BH these days and he likes OoV -> tranqs -> urn -> blink -> hex and it's hilariously effective.
On August 23 2014 17:44 Irratonalys wrote: a third point into shuriken will only give you +50 (+40 if you factor in magic resistance) damage , a second point into jinada will give you more effective return if you have phase boots , poor mans and drums , i usually go 2-2-2-1 at 7
Each point in Jinada after the first adds another 25% of your damage to the Jinada strike, you would need 200 damage for it to be better than the 3rd point in Shuriken (ignoring the cooldown reduction) ignoring that armor is variable. If I were in a heavy -armor strat I'd consider maxing Jinada/WW over the 3rd point in Shuriken but otherwise no go.
I generally go 2-1-2 by 5 with maxing Shuriken by 8. Yes, rank 2->3 for Shuriken sucks but it's still a bigger increase to your burst damage than any other point (unless you are double Shadow Walk hitting, but going 2->4 is better than 2 points in Shadow Walk past the first so meh).
I usually go whatever random utility items fits, this hero is just too frail to be built like a carry as he competes with AM and PL for "worst HP on a pure melee hero" (TB has worse HP but is only part time melee). I really like Orchid as well, Force Staff/Vlad's are also pretty nice.
On August 23 2014 17:51 DucK- wrote: I used to max jinada first, as toss has shit scaling from 2-3. But these days I usually max toss first because after all rank 4 toss is a decent nuke. As for ww, if I'm doing well in lane I generally skill the second point later.
I think c9 with their random items BH has shown how he doesn't necessarily need to be built with DPS. Your main purpose is just to contribute via track. I personally dislike building him that way too. But I also dislike getting blink force like how they played him. I prefer getting dagon, or orchid if it helps. Bkb only if necessary.
I believe one of the main attractions of blink is you can track someone then shift-queue a blink away, and they have no way of killing you. One of my friends has been playing a lot of support / roaming BH these days and he likes OoV -> tranqs -> urn -> blink -> hex and it's hilariously effective.
Well one of the main reason c9 gets blink is they play a roaming/support BH, of which the sole purpose is really just track. All those items all serve this purpose. I do not fancy it in pubs because I think it is important to be able to have the potential for easy solo kills
So, I like to play BH as offlane semi-carry (though I am quite bad at it, being 2k MMR). But whenever I see BH in professional play (if ever), it's a roaming 4/5 position support. Is BH that useless as semicarry in current meta? I know that pub meta is not the same as how professionals play, but if nobody good at the game plays BH that way, then maybe there's no point to? (and if some pros do play offlane/sc Bounty, I'd love to watch them, so please tell me if you know some games with such a BH)
he doesn't scale with agility even though he's an agi hero, he's squishy, he can't contest any lanes vs current meta safelane heroes, and his best skill gives the other team the ability to rubberband, he doesn't do enough in team fights to warrant solo offlane experience
On March 28 2015 04:08 Ufnal wrote: What do you mean by "he doesn't scale with agility"?
BH doesn't scale well with attack speed because Jinada and Shadow Walk are his big sources of damage and neither of them interact with attack speed. As such he loses one of the best scaling properties of agility: it gives you dmg and attack speed if it is your primary attribute.
Technically he does scale with agi, but it's very disconnected from how he plays and what he's good at. When you have a big critical strike that's on a forced cooldown it's better to focus on dmg to make it count.
As a steroid Jinada is underwhelming, even if it's a great ability for ganking. It's similar to Walrus punch really. It's great for a big hit of dmg, but it's not that impressive in scaling. Compare 225%dmg/6s CD to germinate which is 200% dmg every 3 seconds without 'using up' the ability to crit. Or compare it to SoF which is effectively 100% per target damage, or >100% per target dmg with BFuries on the same cooldown (so you can easily get 300-500% dmg per 6 seconds).
What makes BH work is using the built in burst from Jinada combined with the high dmg on his other abilities to secure kills, but that comes at the expense of any of those abilities actually scaling well.
I agree with what you're saying in principle Logo, but you're overstating it a bit. Overall, BH's kit does have to make the lategame manfighting transition in a long game, and can do so with an item advantage. Just like Weaver eventually makes the transition with Heart+BFly/AC when he's approaching 6 items, BH also can make the transition.
There are a couple things of note: 1) Bounty Hunter is fundamentally not a solo tempo-carrying hero. This is a liability with the way the game is currently played. Bounty Hunter is good at piggybacking off someone ELSE's tempo, thanks to Track, but he does not initiate well and does not have high burst damage on his own. With the emphasis on the offlane being the primary point of developing the tempo in the current version, having an offlane that can't do that on his own and needs another tempo core to get rolling is a liability.
2) To make the transition into manfighting/sustained damage items lategame (e.g. BKB+BFly+Heart/Satanic), BH needs to have an item advantage. Purely on the strength of his kit, he can't make the transition and expect to be as strong as other heroes with similar items (due to the reasons you mentioned). Coupled with his slow farming speed, it means he needs an inordinate amount of Track gold to successfully make the transition and be an effective hero in this way. While Track gold is significant and largely why you pick the hero, to be able to develop a major item advantage over other core heroes while having inferior farming ability is mostly unrealistic--and in games where you have somewhat reasonable teammates that participate in fights and can preserve their tempo, if you managed to amass that much Track gold, the rest of your team must also be rich enough that it doesn't really matter what items you get.
Logo, TheYango, thank you for your answers! I was a bit confused as BH's Agi progress is among the best in the game afaik [+3/lvl, better than many Agi carries], but if you consider ability interactions then the picture becomes quite different.
I always thought about BH as an assasin hero - one who catches people off guard and kills 1-on-1 (where his high agi and burst abilities, while not interacting, both contribute to his ability to kill people and run the hell away) or contributes to ganks, not as a main carry. But I also thought putting him on 3/offlane meant that he got his abilities (esp. Track) faster while Shadow walk allowed him to do offlaner's job (that is - not dying and putting some pressure, or at least making the enemy carry nervous). However, now that you made me think about it, this 3 position does not do much if BH does not go and get kills, and if he is getting kills he doesn't harass the carry (assuming a 2-3 people safelane from enemy). So unless against a solo carry or in a good killing duo/trilane (one of my best BH games ever was a dual with a wonderful Crystal Maiden, with her spells we killed the crap out of enemy Ursa & [something I don't remember]), I think you are right that offlane BH is not good enough. Gotta do some thinking and playing, thanks!
On March 28 2015 20:30 Ufnal wrote: Logo, TheYango, thank you for your answers! I was a bit confused as BH's Agi progress is among the best in the game afaik [+3/lvl, better than many Agi carries], but if you consider ability interactions then the picture becomes quite different.
I always thought about BH as an assasin hero - one who catches people off guard and kills 1-on-1 (where his high agi and burst abilities, while not interacting, both contribute to his ability to kill people and run the hell away) or contributes to ganks, not as a main carry. But I also thought putting him on 3/offlane meant that he got his abilities (esp. Track) faster while Shadow walk allowed him to do offlaner's job (that is - not dying and putting some pressure, or at least making the enemy carry nervous). However, now that you made me think about it, this 3 position does not do much if BH does not go and get kills, and if he is getting kills he doesn't harass the carry (assuming a 2-3 people safelane from enemy). So unless against a solo carry or in a good killing duo/trilane (one of my best BH games ever was a dual with a wonderful Crystal Maiden, with her spells we killed the crap out of enemy Ursa & [something I don't remember]), I think you are right that offlane BH is not good enough. Gotta do some thinking and playing, thanks!
You're an invis hero. You have track. It doesn't really matter if the enemy carry is still free farming when the other 4 are so scared of giving away track gold. Your presence drains supports resources. The whole reason for bounty offlane is to get level 6 because track alone is enough of a contribution.
You don't need to be able to solo kill. You need to make the enemy scared of giving away track kills. It's all about the track.
Yeah but the thing is, this psychological strat works better at higher levels. At my 2.1k MMR I wouldn't expect people to be fearful of a specific ability and long-term benefits thereof.
On March 28 2015 22:18 Ufnal wrote: Yeah but the thing is, this psychological strat works better at higher levels. At my 2.1k MMR I wouldn't expect people to be fearful of a specific ability and long-term benefits thereof.
You get track gold. You spend it on items. Soon you can solo kill heroes and snowball even more. Whether you want to play like a secondary dps source or a burst hero depends on the game.
When I play bounty, bottle boots stick is all I need to start ganking 24/7 from level 6.
Best played as solo roaming pos4. Had a pretty decent winrate with him even though this rubberband patch is supposed to be bad for him. Good for kiting jugg/troll, raping sf/sniper in mid lane.
Start game with OOV, tango and tons of clarity. Let the other pos5 get wards and chick. Best if you can time your gank by getting 3 bonus hit dmg from the windwalk. After 15s cd, hit once. WW and immediately hit twice again. Just get arcane boots, not even rushing dagon can help solve your mana problems when spamming track every 4s. Survive on clarities before that, don't be stingy on buying them. Bottle works too. I had mana issues with both bottle and arcane sometimes.
Spam toss on non-tracked heroes in teamfight so you get 1 extra toss splash. Go dagon and blink, order depends on what your team needs. Track vision is the key for this hero. Help dodge fights when your team needs to. Maximize own team's initiation potential while minimizing theirs.
On March 29 2015 08:03 Ufnal wrote: I don't really understand blink on BH. Is it just for getting track? Isn't the invis good enough for that?
Invis is enough to get the initial track, but smart players will hide behind sentries or towers as soon as someone is tracked and punish you if you get close at all. Blink + force or euls gives you the power to track constantly with impunity unless they have a disruptor or clock or some other huge distance-closer.
Blink is also like how Nyx (sort of) and Clinkz sometimes use blink. You can blink -> combo to open up on someone. Especially true for a support in a teamfight where it's otherwise difficult to get past a front line & sentries. Blink means you can always dive their supports with Shadow Walk -> Jinada -> Shuriken or some variation of that.
Blink is a cute item on bh that doesn't have much uses in a pub environment IMO. Then again BH is all about the track, so in a sense it doesn't matter what items you get.
The main purpose of blink is to scout aggressively. Track and blink away. Break smoke and blink away. Sometimes you have to blink away immediately without tracking after spotting them. The idea is all about getting map information for the team.
Dagon not only helps contribute damage from a safe distance in teamfights, but also force them to clump up due to your solo killing potential which makes scouting even easier. Just refer to how PLD play BH in TI4.
With the reduction in Shuriken's cast range, maybe Blink is better on him now? It feels difficult to get in range to cast Shuriken sometimes when you need it.
Also, one of the things that I like about BH is that his items builds are very flexible, much more so than most. If there is a "bread and butter" however, it seems to me that Phase -> Drum/Vlad is it, especially with the new Vlad. What do you guys think?
Also, why are Tranquils bad (from first post)? If you have Bottle, I guess you don't need the regen, but the movement speed is always nice, and sometimes Bottle feels awkward because I don't want to steal the rune from mid.
Vlads is a crap item on many heroes. It is an item to get when you want to provide some bonus stats when you have nothing better to get. Basically it doesn't improve a hero or team by a lot. It gives some statistical improvements, but there's no mechanical benefits which you can exploit.
Tranquil is ok, but I like phase. Some people play bounty as a #4 perma roam with tranquil urn medallion blink etc. I don't like that style and build. I think bottle is a better choice for regen purposes. I usually play as an offlane, getting my boots bottle level 6, before my ganks. I prefer being able to solo kill. I like Dagon, I like orchid.
I don't think that toss CD means you should get blink. You get blink for the same reason you used to get it. I don't like blink because it doesn't contribute much to my solo kills.
There's 2 runes available now. Don't be afraid of taking runes.
BH without bottle is a pain in the ass, you spend too much mana, sometimes even though you are low hp in teamfights you want to keep around throwing tracks and without something like a bottle you can't do it. The shuriken range is really small now, it is the same of Bane's range, but the bounce range is fucking insane. I like to build treads to him since you can treads swap to get some extra mana and health, but since the update it might be less necessary. Also, you might forget that you are invisible, swap treads and break invisibility, it is annoying but I never got killed by that... yet.
I just played a game with BH, was thinking during the match 'omg, this is insane, did icefrog went too far? look how much gold I have!', then after I realized that the track bounty wasn't changed at all lmao.
Also, what do you guys think about letting shadow walk at lvl 2 or 3 so you can deal bonus damage twice? The damage scales from 30/60/90/120 and the fade time from 1/.75/.5/.25. I don't think you can hit twice at the last level, right? Not sure if it is worth it, just crossed my mind while playing.
Dagon is good, get solo kills, burst down squishy supports at the start of the fight, trade but still get ahead. I had a game, I had most deaths on team, fewest last hits, second highest gpm at 524, was fun.
I definitely think dagon is the way to go after a few basic starting items like upgraded boots and a regen item.
Item choices on bounty are a matter of build. Some games when you are facing low armor enemy team it is best to go deso and max jinada instead of shuriken. However with the buffs to shuriken the best build right now (or atleast the most standard) would be to go arcanes and max shuriken so you can spam the nuke and track. If you are snowballing you can try to go solo kill heavy with dagon eblade build (not standard, just pubstompy) but if its a really tryhard game or you are not ahead enough to solo kill the best thing to do is go utility, get vlads maybe solar crest force staff or blink and focus on tracking everything you see. Another alternative to the arcanes build is to go bottle phase drums but this build is not that common now.
On March 29 2015 08:03 Ufnal wrote: I don't really understand blink on BH. Is it just for getting track? Isn't the invis good enough for that?
Blink is a really utility item. It works well when you have heroes like storm or qop who can hunt down tracked heroes and get solo kills. The way aui used to it for EG in ESL One game 2 against VP i think where they had sumail storm is a good example.
On March 29 2015 08:03 Ufnal wrote: I don't really understand blink on BH. Is it just for getting track? Isn't the invis good enough for that?
Blink is a really utility item. It works well when you have heroes like storm or qop who can hunt down tracked heroes and get solo kills. The way aui used to it for EG in ESL One game 2 against VP i think where they had sumail storm is a good example.
I think blink works well in general. If you have some good timings and postions. But i agree wat you said!
blink is basically... u went for a greedy track, and a crazy mofo with stun start running at you faster than you can escape (slardar, hero with blink) and u needed to gtfo.
I can't seem to win a game with bh though, we'd be so rich with track gold but he sucks so bad at taking team fights once the enemy start to 5 man the game falls apart ;/
just won a game against bounty. basically 5 manning everywhere and he couldn't do shit
On June 29 2015 03:46 evanthebouncy! wrote: blink is basically... u went for a greedy track, and a crazy mofo with stun start running at you faster than you can escape (slardar, hero with blink) and u needed to gtfo.
I can't seem to win a game with bh though, we'd be so rich with track gold but he sucks so bad at taking team fights once the enemy start to 5 man the game falls apart ;/
just won a game against bounty. basically 5 manning everywhere and he couldn't do shit
If they're 5 manning, your team should be farming everywhere else. Especially since you're constantly scouting them out.
BH is actually very easy to win with. I think one of the most important thing on bh in pubs is your ability to solo kill. That means you shouldn't build utility items on him. In organized settings you can do that because you can trust your team and coordinate accordingly. In a pub environment, you want to be a threat. Dagon is actually so good on bounty.
On June 29 2015 03:46 evanthebouncy! wrote: blink is basically... u went for a greedy track, and a crazy mofo with stun start running at you faster than you can escape (slardar, hero with blink) and u needed to gtfo.
I can't seem to win a game with bh though, we'd be so rich with track gold but he sucks so bad at taking team fights once the enemy start to 5 man the game falls apart ;/
just won a game against bounty. basically 5 manning everywhere and he couldn't do shit
If they're 5 manning, your team should be farming everywhere else. Especially since you're constantly scouting them out.
BH is actually very easy to win with. I think one of the most important thing on bh in pubs is your ability to solo kill. That means you shouldn't build utility items on him. In organized settings you can do that because you can trust your team and coordinate accordingly. In a pub environment, you want to be a threat. Dagon is actually so good on bounty.
i always thought you get utility items so you have some impact in the 5man teamfights and help your stupid carries to get kills and trackgold. and going for solo kill power when you get farmed in the early/midgame and are able to snowball.
A big portion of BH's team impact is through track gold, which is a very snowball-y type of mechanic. Dagon is a more cost effective way for BH to get kills compared to DPS items so you can get the snowball going earlier.
On June 29 2015 03:46 evanthebouncy! wrote: blink is basically... u went for a greedy track, and a crazy mofo with stun start running at you faster than you can escape (slardar, hero with blink) and u needed to gtfo.
I can't seem to win a game with bh though, we'd be so rich with track gold but he sucks so bad at taking team fights once the enemy start to 5 man the game falls apart ;/
just won a game against bounty. basically 5 manning everywhere and he couldn't do shit
If they're 5 manning, your team should be farming everywhere else. Especially since you're constantly scouting them out.
BH is actually very easy to win with. I think one of the most important thing on bh in pubs is your ability to solo kill. That means you shouldn't build utility items on him. In organized settings you can do that because you can trust your team and coordinate accordingly. In a pub environment, you want to be a threat. Dagon is actually so good on bounty.
i always thought you get utility items so you have some impact in the 5man teamfights and help your stupid carries to get kills and trackgold. and going for solo kill power when you get farmed in the early/midgame and are able to snowball.
It really depends. Reason I say this is because you're playing in a pub environment, not an organised one. You can't trust that your team will make use of your mek or Vlad (worst item on him) etc to take fights. However you can trust in yourself to solo kill or finish off heroes to snowball.
The moment you're a solo threat, you create so much space by yourself. I'd say you help your stupid carries get track gold better because tracked heroes die easier.
Even if you're getting supportive items on a support BH, there's a heavy emphasis toward ones that help to get track kills like Urn and Medallion.
Especially on support BH, Dagon's really the best way for you to contribute damage because you simply don't have the income to get enough stats to run in and hit things.
On May 02 2015 19:01 Eclipsing Binary wrote: With the reduction in Shuriken's cast range, maybe Blink is better on him now? It feels difficult to get in range to cast Shuriken sometimes when you need it.
Also, one of the things that I like about BH is that his items builds are very flexible, much more so than most. If there is a "bread and butter" however, it seems to me that Phase -> Drum/Vlad is it, especially with the new Vlad. What do you guys think?
Also, why are Tranquils bad (from first post)? If you have Bottle, I guess you don't need the regen, but the movement speed is always nice, and sometimes Bottle feels awkward because I don't want to steal the rune from mid.
Three quarter of my shuriken are nowadays not on the target I want to kill after I get track. Enemy heroes, neutral creeps, lane creeps, whatever. 1200 range is really good.
On July 22 2015 17:18 Liebig wrote: How many hits do you need to kill a walking courrier at lvl 1? 2 hits and only 1 with the shadow walk bonus ?
from what i remember at least 2 hits regardless if you have shadowwalk bonus or not. shouldn't be too big of an issue if you have an oov, it's not getting away.
On July 22 2015 02:47 Skyro wrote: A big portion of BH's team impact is through track gold, which is a very snowball-y type of mechanic. Dagon is a more cost effective way for BH to get kills compared to DPS items so you can get the snowball going earlier.
once you have got dagon do you level it to dagon5 or go for some other item? something like deso/ac/orchid
In my opinion, dagon is amazing on BH, offlane or support. It allows him to burst down a target without the requirement of getting closer to use jinada.
It's also the best way to enable potential solo kills on squishy heroes.
On July 22 2015 02:47 Skyro wrote: A big portion of BH's team impact is through track gold, which is a very snowball-y type of mechanic. Dagon is a more cost effective way for BH to get kills compared to DPS items so you can get the snowball going earlier.
once you have got dagon do you level it to dagon5 or go for some other item? something like deso/ac/orchid
Depends on how effective I have been with track kills. I definitely never get deso on him because I don't build him as a hitter. Even after my Dagon/eblade, I probably go towards hex/abyssal.
I only get orchid if I'm doing really well, and sense that the pub storm/qop/ember/am/slark ain't gonna get their defensive item soon.
Eblade is not necessary in my opinion. It's fine, but sounds like a luxury to me. Items such as solar crest or hex will have more impact for the entire team in my opinion. Of course, if you have even more burst damage than your nukes, get it asap, it can only be good.
Oh yes. You don't need Eblade at all. I didn't word it properly, though the main point is that Deso is behind many other items for me.
PS. I don't get Solar Crest too, because I prefer playing a selfish style of BH in pubs. By the time I may choose to get it, it doesn't seem attractive anymore.
this hero deserves some recognition. he's the highest win rate in TI, and is an absolute nightmare to deal with at every level. lesh and bloodseeker and the like are complained a lot about in pubs, but bounty breaks teams in a different way.
track is extremely hard to deal with efficiently, and the team with a BH are always in the game, regardless of the map condition.
he fits in too perfectly with the fighting meta, and its really easy to greed him out as a 4 or 5 position support.
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