EPT[Hero] Meepo - Page 2
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KurtistheTurtle
United States1966 Posts
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KurtistheTurtle
United States1966 Posts
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Cyx.
Canada806 Posts
On February 10 2013 16:59 KurtistheTurtle wrote: another thing you might want to consider is throwing in a youtube "how to" or just description of netting people, netting areas, and demonstration of net rotation Yeah, that's generally what the 'replays' section is for - if you need a more in-depth demonstration of most of the techniques I talk about in the guide, that's where you should be heading. I'll work on expanding it some though - it could definitely include some pro player's VODs or (even better) FPVODs. Generally, the poof trick is nice if you're slow with your poofs but you should be trying to go fast enough that your later Meepos don't have a choice of Meepo 1 or 2 because they're all in the middle of the fight anyways. If you have real problems with leaving Meepos behind because they poof too fast, then maybe you should also consider just blinking in first - it won't get you a perfect chain net but it will do the job pretty well without leaving anyone behind. Thanks for the feedback everyone! Glad most people are enjoying it, hopefully someone out there picks up Meepo because of this guide =) | ||
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KurtistheTurtle
United States1966 Posts
and while I agree with the "if you don't have fast enough fingers then you should be practicing with this hero" sentiment, the poof trick is probably worthy of mention | ||
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KurtistheTurtle
United States1966 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sOiHkdd.jpg) edit: yeah, lol, i chuckled at the wd too | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
Shadowblade WD best WD. Great Meepo guide, unfortunately he's one hero I'll never be able to play well enough, but the guide was a nice read. | ||
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Cyx.
Canada806 Posts
On February 10 2013 17:41 KurtistheTurtle wrote: I've been trying like mad to get your replays to work but they just won't load, don't exist, or won't launch once I've dl'ed. Do you have any from this patch version? and while I agree with the "if you don't have fast enough fingers then you should be practicing with this hero" sentiment, the poof trick is probably worthy of mention Okay, so I've been playing Meepo all night tonight in an attempt to get some good replays that demonstrate most of the stuff I talked about in this guide and I managed to pick up a few - I'm only happy with one of them really so I'm not going to edit the OP just yet until I have a few more that I really like but for now, here are three halfway decent Meepo games. Match ID: 122397800 - I have a bit of a rough early game in this one and don't get the farm or levels I'd like early but still manage to have a pretty decent impact on the late game. Item timings are pretty off in this one due to that but some of the mechanical stuff like blink-poofing and chain netting can be pretty good to watch if you're trying to learn, as well as jungling techniques. Match ID: 122375640 - I play way too aggressively at the start of this game with the result that my items are again pretty slow, but I do a bit better than in the first one and end up with a way better score. I was also more warmed up since the first one was my first game of the day =P Also forgot until I actually watched this one to check it that one of my friends decided picking support Sven with my Meepo was a great idea and I yelled at him a lot. It was a pretty rough early game for that reason mostly. Match ID: 122456424 - this one was my only really good game of the night farm-wise - our solo mid Enchantress was raping (he's actually one of my real life friends) so I had tons of room in the early game and once the midgame rolled around I was really into a good roll. My mechanical stuff was also way more on par in this game, and this game probably has the best examples out of the three of big initiations in the midgame with blink-poof-chain net on three or four heroes really dominating a lot of fights combined with mek. Hopefully this is enough to last you until I can find a few more really good replays to edit into the OP! You should be able to get a decent idea of most of the stuff I talk about, especially from the last replay, though it's not as good of a game =P | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
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FreeZer
Sweden288 Posts
Also my head is full of poofing rats when I try to sleep. | ||
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VelJa
France1109 Posts
Hes really well written and we feel that u enjoy playing 'em. I'm a total noob with this hero. I always random in AP so i play him only 3/4 time since i get Dota2 (6month or so). So this morning i start a game and .. MEEPO's POP on my screen ! so i decided to follow ur guide. And it work pretty good. I mean i was not a pure carry, but i was 10/10/21. It's not a good score, but i learned a lot. Here is my feedback : 1. You have to change your shortcuts 2. What u imagine in your head is not what your finger does ! I fail 4/5 times with combo dagger/poof :D The timing is hard to find ! 3. With a little bit practice, Jungling is easy 4. This hero need a lot of practice 5. It's not so hard to farm woods with meepo n°2 & meepo n°3 when your prime is laning 6. One of my amte tell me to make Medaillon of Courage for early gank, what do u think about that ? | ||
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FreeZer
Sweden288 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
Meepo is not exactly your standard farming hero. Gold comes naturally to you. What's more important is levels. The only basic items you need are those that get you to level 6. Don't waste gold on wraith bands, stick etc. They're useless. Tranquil is a good item, but if you can, rush BoT. If you're not getting TB or BoT, then the only other boots of choice is Treads. Nothing else. Your only core item is Blink Dagger. Alternative, you can get Shadowblade. They both achieve similar results, but I would say Shadowblade is more effective in pubs. These 2 items allow you to net solo kills very easily after you're level 11 or 16. Mek is ok, but not absolutely necessary. Vlads too. The most stupid thing you can do is to go Vlads first. It's either BoT first, Mek first, or Blink/Shadowblade first. Nothing else. Vlads is for late game. Even then like Mek, you can skip it entirely given how broken Agha is. Without a doubt, after Blink your next item is Agha. Again, never rush an Agha. It's pointless to do so, as you're just 4-5 walking Meepos throwing obvious Nets. After Agha, stack Reavers. Then go all Heart. I don't think Skadi is that good, and I forgot if the Bloodstone bug got fixed. Nonetheless, after Agha it's pretty straightforward to stack HP. Remember that you shouldn't be farming all day for your max items. You are not a hard carry. You peak when you're level 11/16. There's limit to what you can do. Meepo is all about securing a ridiculous advantage when he has such a gigantic level difference against the enemy. With BoT, you have global presence as well. Small note: Ghost Scepter absolutely counters Meepo. You can't net when the enemy is decrepify. Likewise, Decrepify allows a netted hero to walk out. | ||
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Cyx.
Canada806 Posts
On February 12 2013 01:46 DucK- wrote: That's a disgusting skill build. Net is always more important than Geostrike. There's even some arguments about not skilling Geo at all, but I think that's irrelevant. If that's what you think that's cool, but I've had a ton of success with leveling geo after one level in net - I've never in this thread once said that going net before geo is a bad decision if you read my comments, just that I prefer geo over net. EDIT: One thing I think many people aren't paying attention to when they talk about net over geo is that geostrike actually recieved a significant DPS buff in 6.75 along with the scepter changes, so if you haven't played Meepo in a while, geostrike used to be a lot worse than it is now. On February 12 2013 01:46 DucK- wrote: Meepo is not exactly your standard farming hero. Gold comes naturally to you. What's more important is levels. The only basic items you need are those that get you to level 6. Don't waste gold on wraith bands, stick etc. They're useless. Tranquil is a good item, but if you can, rush BoT. If you're not getting TB or BoT, then the only other boots of choice is Treads. Nothing else. Here you're saying pretty much exactly what I say in the guide - just because I mention a few times you might want to think about picking up phase boots, doesn't mean I'm saying they're usually a better boot choice than tranqs, treads or travels. The only thing I disagree with is the 'don't waste gold on wraith bands, stick etc' - the couple hundred gold you spend on these items is literally nothing to you at the end of the game with 700+ GPM, and the stick in particular can be invaluable in the early game. On February 12 2013 01:46 DucK- wrote: Your only core item is Blink Dagger. Alternative, you can get Shadowblade. They both achieve similar results, but I would say Shadowblade is more effective in pubs. These 2 items allow you to net solo kills very easily after you're level 11 or 16. Shadowblade is not a great item on Meepo - the fun times you can have with the poof combo when Meepo Prime is invisible is pretty cool, but as an item that's more than 50% again as expensive as blink dagger and doesn't give any useful stats to your other Meepos at all I feel like it's more a waste of money than anything. On February 12 2013 01:46 DucK- wrote: Mek is ok, but not absolutely necessary. Vlads too. The most stupid thing you can do is to go Vlads first. It's either BoT first, Mek first, or Blink/Shadowblade first. Nothing else. Vlads is for late game. Even then like Mek, you can skip it entirely given how broken Agha is. Mek is really good, but I do agree it's not necessary, especially if someone else on your team is able to get it quickly. Vlads is definitely for late game and someone else should get it if possible. That being said, I would never say 'nothing else' is a viable option, especially since I talk in the guide a decent amount about a solo mid Meepo whose skill and item builds can vary a lot from your usual items and skills, and I would consider picking up an earlier vlads along with bt's for some extreme midgame pushing power. On February 12 2013 01:46 DucK- wrote: Without a doubt, after Blink your next item is Agha. Again, never rush an Agha. It's pointless to do so, as you're just 4-5 walking Meepos throwing obvious Nets. After Agha, stack Reavers. Then go all Heart. I don't think Skadi is that good, and I forgot if the Bloodstone bug got fixed. Nonetheless, after Agha it's pretty straightforward to stack HP. You're talking in absolutes that just aren't always true. 'Never rush an agha' is not necessarily a good decision - if you are trying to skimp on your midgame presence with the intention of being a true hard carry in the late game, rushing scepter can increase your farm speed by a lot and make you a rightclick DPS force to be feared extremely early. Stacking reavers is a terrible decision - it grants you nothing but HP, which is important but you also need to be doing damage at this point in the game. Skadi is a fantastic item as it gives you a reaver's worth of strength and the same in int and agi - better than stacking HP in just about every conceivable way. AC will also provide you with more tankiness for your buck than a second heart will, on top of increasing (again) your DPS. On February 12 2013 01:46 DucK- wrote: Remember that you shouldn't be farming all day for your max items. You are not a hard carry. You peak when you're level 11/16. There's limit to what you can do. Meepo is all about securing a ridiculous advantage when he has such a gigantic level difference against the enemy. With BoT, you have global presence as well. Small note: Ghost Scepter absolutely counters Meepo. You can't net when the enemy is decrepify. Likewise, Decrepify allows a netted hero to walk out. This I disagree with pretty completely. You shouldn't be doing the Anti-Mage thing and literally ignoring your team until half an hour has gone by, but you should ALWAYS be focused on getting farm and getting levels - your flash farm ability and great scaling of damage into the late game make you one of the hardest carries in the game. I agree that Meepo's about securing a ridiculous advantage in the mid-late game, but one of the ways you are able to do that is by taking advantage of the fact that you can always be farming as well as doing other things. Thanks for the reminder about ghost scepter, I'll edit the guide in a day or two with that info + some more replays. | ||
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Cyx.
Canada806 Posts
On February 12 2013 00:18 VelJa wrote: First of all, thanks for the guide. Hes really well written and we feel that u enjoy playing 'em. I'm a total noob with this hero. I always random in AP so i play him only 3/4 time since i get Dota2 (6month or so). So this morning i start a game and .. MEEPO's POP on my screen ! so i decided to follow ur guide. And it work pretty good. I mean i was not a pure carry, but i was 10/10/21. It's not a good score, but i learned a lot. Here is my feedback : 1. You have to change your shortcuts 2. What u imagine in your head is not what your finger does ! I fail 4/5 times with combo dagger/poof :D The timing is hard to find ! 3. With a little bit practice, Jungling is easy 4. This hero need a lot of practice 5. It's not so hard to farm woods with meepo n°2 & meepo n°3 when your prime is laning 6. One of my amte tell me to make Medaillon of Courage for early gank, what do u think about that ? Glad you had fun! Meepo is awesome =) you do DEFINITELY have to change your hotkeys up, and work a lot on getting the dagger-poof right, but it's so fun once you do. You're also right about it not being too tricky to jungle without paying much attention to the Meepos in the jungle once you get a little practice - eventually you'll just start doing it using the minimap automatically. As far as medallion goes, it doesn't really provide anything useful to your Meepos besides a bit of mana regen and armor on Meepo Prime - since you're really not lacking either mana or armor in the early game (Meepo's starting armor is really high), neither of those is great on him, and the active isn't really worth the 1k gold that could be half of your mek. I do love medallion as a really cost-efficient ganking item on heroes like Bounty Hunter, but I just don't think it works with Meepo very well. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
Shadowblade is not a great item on Meepo - the fun times you can have with the poof combo when Meepo Prime is invisible is pretty cool, but as an item that's more than 50% again as expensive as blink dagger and doesn't give any useful stats to your other Meepos at all I feel like it's more a waste of money than anything. The main idea for Blink/Shadowblade is to initiate against a lone hero. Invis is the best thing to have in pubs, because pubs take a damn long while to decide to get Sentries/Gem. Blink requires you to initiate from fog, whereas Shadowblade doesn't. Shadowblade is generally better for the initiation. They both serve the same purpose, and in a pub environment Shadowblade easily outclass Blink. Mek is really good, but I do agree it's not necessary, especially if someone else on your team is able to get it quickly. Vlads is definitely for late game and someone else should get it if possible. That being said, I would never say 'nothing else' is a viable option, especially since I talk in the guide a decent amount about a solo mid Meepo whose skill and item builds can vary a lot from your usual items and skills, and I would consider picking up an earlier vlads along with bt's for some extreme midgame pushing power. Vlads first is still junk, because you won't at all be pushing that early with Meepo. There is really nothing else you should get first on Meepo. It's Mek vs BoT vs Blink/Shadowblade. Very rarely would you want to go for Agha, but in pubs you should never do so. You're talking in absolutes that just aren't always true. 'Never rush an agha' is not necessarily a good decision - if you are trying to skimp on your midgame presence with the intention of being a true hard carry in the late game, rushing scepter can increase your farm speed by a lot and make you a rightclick DPS force to be feared extremely early. Stacking reavers is a terrible decision - it grants you nothing but HP, which is important but you also need to be doing damage at this point in the game. Skadi is a fantastic item as it gives you a reaver's worth of strength and the same in int and agi - better than stacking HP in just about every conceivable way. AC will also provide you with more tankiness for your buck than a second heart will, on top of increasing (again) your DPS. First and foremost, Meepo is not a hard carry. He is quite crap when the enemy carry gets their items. What he is good at is gaining such a huge gold/exp advantage, that the enemy carry cannot compete with him. You should never think of Meepo as unstoppable with max items, for he is no PL. I do agree that Agha improves your farm speed. That is the only reason you get Agha first. But for its price you can get Mek + Blink. You can't rely on your teammates too much in pubs. Farming hard/turtling with Meepo won't grant you the advantage. You need to participate preferably from level 11, and Agha doesn't allow you that. You are not a right click DPS force, because you should never be able to deal significant right click in the first place. Even if you went your Geostrike build for the extra DPS, you will never be able to land your nets with 500 range. Your main damage comes from Poof, which you can't deal without your nets. You need additional items, which means needing to turtle/farm more. Skadi doesn't add that much damage to Meepo. It can be gotten, but the stats to Agi/Int isn't that significant as many claim. Meepo doesn't right click hard with items. He does so due to level advantage. After a certain window, his DPS isn't fantastic at all. You can finish your heart, or go 3 Reavers. It's the same thing actually. I'm not certain of the mechanics between AC and Vlad in Dota 2, but for WC3 AC's armour aura doesn't stack with Vlad. For that reason, AC is a horrible item as all it provides is 20 attack speed to the other Meepos if you had Vlads. And the -Armour is something a simple MoC provides. For that price, AC is a junk item on Meepo. If the Armour aura does stack in Dota 2, then it makes AC from a junk item to an alright item. Stacking Heart still gives better benefits. This I disagree with pretty completely. You shouldn't be doing the Anti-Mage thing and literally ignoring your team until half an hour has gone by, but you should ALWAYS be focused on getting farm and getting levels - your flash farm ability and great scaling of damage into the late game make you one of the hardest carries in the game. I agree that Meepo's about securing a ridiculous advantage in the mid-late game, but one of the ways you are able to do that is by taking advantage of the fact that you can always be farming as well as doing other things. Thanks for the reminder about ghost scepter, I'll edit the guide in a day or two with that info + some more replays. What you said was what I meant actually. Don't do the anti-mage thing. Join your teammates with your main meepo. Farm/splitpush with the rest. One last final remark which I forgot. Hex is a very good and common extension for Meepo. Pre Agha buff, Hex is gotten most of the time after Blink + Mek. Remember that building Meepo as a right click DPS is futile, for he is never going to have comparable output as your traditional DPS hard carry. Meepo carries in a totally different way | ||
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Cyx.
Canada806 Posts
On February 12 2013 05:37 DucK- wrote: The main idea for Blink/Shadowblade is to initiate against a lone hero. Invis is the best thing to have in pubs, because pubs take a damn long while to decide to get Sentries/Gem. Blink requires you to initiate from fog, whereas Shadowblade doesn't. Shadowblade is generally better for the initiation. They both serve the same purpose, and in a pub environment Shadowblade easily outclass Blink. If you use Blink effectively, I still think it provides the exact same if not better utility than shadowblade for initiation purposes, without the risk of getting coutered by dust/sentries, as well as being cheaper. If you want to build shadowblade I'm not going to say it's bad, but I think blink is theoretically better. On February 12 2013 05:37 DucK- wrote: Vlads first is still junk, because you won't at all be pushing that early with Meepo. There is really nothing else you should get first on Meepo. It's Mek vs BoT vs Blink/Shadowblade. Very rarely would you want to go for Agha, but in pubs you should never do so. I agree vlads first is not a good idea, I said I would consider picking it up earlier that the last item in my build. I totally agree with everything you said here. On February 12 2013 05:37 DucK- wrote: First and foremost, Meepo is not a hard carry. He is quite crap when the enemy carry gets their items. What he is good at is gaining such a huge gold/exp advantage, that the enemy carry cannot compete with him. You should never think of Meepo as unstoppable with max items, for he is no PL. I do agree that Agha improves your farm speed. That is the only reason you get Agha first. But for its price you can get Mek + Blink. You can't rely on your teammates too much in pubs. Farming hard/turtling with Meepo won't grant you the advantage. You need to participate preferably from level 11, and Agha doesn't allow you that. You are not a right click DPS force, because you should never be able to deal significant right click in the first place. Even if you went your Geostrike build for the extra DPS, you will never be able to land your nets with 500 range. Your main damage comes from Poof, which you can't deal without your nets. You need additional items, which means needing to turtle/farm more. The argument that Meepo is not a hard carry isn't a great one. He doesn't compete with a lategame Spectre or Medusa, no, but I just spent a good while in practice games comparing Meepo's 1v1 lategame capabilities with several different classic hard carries, and Meepo has the ability to out-DPS everything but the incredibly lategame carries. In straight up damage considerations, Meepo is comparable to PL in theoretical single-target DPS since the aghanim's buff (I just tried 6 slotted Meepo vs 6 slotted PL in a bot game, and with no abilities and no micro but focus fire, Meepo brings a PL with heart down to less than 500 health extremely consistently in a rightclick war - with micro (ie. a single eblade poof) he easily wins the fight). Against anyone but a Faceless Void, Medusa, Spectre or 12-slotted Lone Druid, Meepo wins. He outcarries Antimage, Lifestealer, Phantom Assassin, Lifestealer... the list goes on and on. On February 12 2013 05:37 DucK- wrote: Skadi doesn't add that much damage to Meepo. It can be gotten, but the stats to Agi/Int isn't that significant as many claim. Meepo doesn't right click hard with items. He does so due to level advantage. After a certain window, his DPS isn't fantastic at all. You can finish your heart, or go 3 Reavers. It's the same thing actually. I'm not certain of the mechanics between AC and Vlad in Dota 2, but for WC3 AC's armour aura doesn't stack with Vlad. For that reason, AC is a horrible item as all it provides is 20 attack speed to the other Meepos if you had Vlads. And the -Armour is something a simple MoC provides. For that price, AC is a junk item on Meepo. If the Armour aura does stack in Dota 2, then it makes AC from a junk item to an alright item. Stacking Heart still gives better benefits. No, Skadi doesn't add an incredible amount of damage to Meepo compared to eblade, butterfly, AC and the like, but it does add an insane amount of survivability and anti-carry, allowing him to even better handle a lot of lategame carries at their own game. AC does stack with Vlads. And the EHP increase from armor, being a percentage of your total HP, goes up as your total HP goes up - if you have 3.5k HP (around what you can have with heart + skadi), every point of armor adds 6% of your 3.5k HP in EHP vs. physical attacks. 3500 * 6% = 210 EHP per point of armor, and with the 15 armor that AC adds, you gain 3150 EHP from AC compared to 1060 from heart. As you continue to stack hearts, the funny thing is that by the same token, AC becomes a better and better choice - it's better than a second heart, but it's even MORE better than a third heart. On February 12 2013 05:37 DucK- wrote: What you said was what I meant actually. Don't do the anti-mage thing. Join your teammates with your main meepo. Farm/splitpush with the rest. One last final remark which I forgot. Hex is a very good and common extension for Meepo. Pre Agha buff, Hex is gotten most of the time after Blink + Mek. Remember that building Meepo as a right click DPS is futile, for he is never going to have comparable output as your traditional DPS hard carry. Meepo carries in a totally different way I can see what you mean by it being a good addition to Meepo especially pre-aghs buff - the lockdown is nice on anyone and the stats are pretty good even though the int doesn't do a whole lot for you. However, I just think there are so many better item choices that there are almost no cases where you'd want to get it over the other things available - that being said, again something I'd consider on a solo mid Meepo where your role isn't that super-lategame DPS but rather secondary DPS, lockdown and initiation and things like that. EDIT: On February 12 2013 00:59 FreeZer wrote: If you poof away from a creep camp with your last meepo, do you still get XP for the kills you got from the departure damage? I believe so but I haven't actually tested it - I'll get back to you. | ||
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FreeZer
Sweden288 Posts
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Arcadia92
135 Posts
On February 12 2013 19:11 FreeZer wrote: I also wonder, what exactly is included by "stats" as in stats that are shared between meepos. Is it only int, agi, str? Or Attack speed as well? What about stuff like movement speed increase and magic resist? Yeah only bonus Int Str and Agi that you get from items on your main Meepo. Movement speed will also be shared because Meepo clones have boots. Stuff like raw HP, magic resist, attack speed, crit etc won't be "shared" because your Meepo clones don't carry the items that provide those benefits. | ||
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thOr6136
Slovenia1775 Posts
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TheStonerer
Canada278 Posts
Anyway, on the geostrike vs net thing, i disagree about either maxing either right off. I prefer to get 2, maybe 3 levels in net before maxing geo. at some point, usually when you get blink dagger, the range on net is less of a factor on a successful combo. So I often get 3 levels in net then max out geo before getting the last level. Even, if you don't need the 3rd level and get your ganks off already, just max geo right there. Dota is not a game of black and white guys. On another note, i never even thought about ethereal to buff your poof combo. Gonna have to try that :D Also about the BoTs, the interaction between meepos was nerfed, so i assume they all share the same cooldown now, which makes it less of a get early item. You get more out of treads early on with the stats, which doesn't delay your mek as much. I get mek as soon as i can too, don't expect the enemy team to be dumb and not try to focus you. | ||
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