On October 18 2014 02:56 Skyro wrote: -While Necro is a good item on Abaddon, he's not going to have the farm as a support to get it at a reasonable timing. -I don't know why you would want to offlane Abaddon. His primary function is as a defensive lane support, and really his defining attribute in the laning phase is his low CD dispel so he's very effective vs. an aggro tri-lane. If you wanted an offlane core I can think of many better offlanes.
Have you tried him offlane with a bottle? It works really well actually.
I personally think abaddon shines in early/mid game team fights when he has enough sustain to consistently cast his spells for the entire duration. If he's position 5 and even 4 to an extent, that's not likely to happen at all - he's going to cast his shield and coil like twice and then run away.
If abaddon gets the basic essential items he needs he can become a strong backbone in the team fight where your team is able to play far more aggressively because they know you're behind them.
On May 11 2015 00:55 Terrorbladder wrote: Is core Abaddon actually viable? What do you build for him to get damage and solve his problem of having to run at people?
most core abaddons i see go (midas) sny (bkb) basher
sny helps run at people faster, bkb is necessary if you're going to get kited by non-ult lockdown
i don't think abaddon is like only a defensive support, he's good in offensive dual lanes too (+axe or +weaver or something)
On May 11 2015 03:59 Terrorbladder wrote: Do you buy Euls on him sometimes to counter tp?
i'd say you'd want more reason than to just counter tp to get euls (stuff to dodge?), because otherwise you're probably going basher->eventually abyssal anyway and those stats are way more useful than the euls int/regen
Is there some reason most core Abaddons don't go fast necro book? If allocated early lane farm you should have more success pushing with a fast necro book and getting early map control instead of trying to get into a right-clicking arms race with a poor farmer like Abaddon. There's strong synergy with curse and necro minions and Abaddon is a great aura carrier.
Core Abaddon (and by core you should never be more than #3) should focus on utility.
Personally I think if you're going for some kind of push you can build those items (mek/pipe/necro) but that kinda heavily depends on the game going that way and your team getting off to a good start so you're in a position to push. Necro3 as a fighting item definitely isnt your best 5k spent. Otherwise the best utility is likely to be an aura carrier. So you go Vlad -> AC, much like a Brewmaster except no Blink.
This is good for many reasons. - Aba doesnt die first like ever. You'll be alive to keep all auras active. - It doesnt really have any weak timings. If the game ends with you only having vlad, thats a good item to have spent 2.3k on. If the game ends with you having Vlad+AC, thats also good items to have spent 7.5k on. Comparatively if you bought mek as first item it will fall off and you have no farming mechanic whatsoever so any further items will be delayed. Vlad lets ju both stay on the map due to regen as well as lets you clear a bunch of neutrals to keep some kind of farm coming in. - Its an item build which both is good at 20min and at 50min. - It sets you up to become a semi-carry should you have a good game and the game goes on late.
After Vlad+AC you go either semi-carry route (abyssal, once again same as Brewmaster build) or full utility (shiva/agh/hex/halberd). Though you'll rarely see any of those items because your item progress will likely be slow due to your lacking farming ability. But once in a while you'll get Abyssal too and while you'll never ever be as good as a proper carry, your right clicks at least arent just tickling anymore.
-I was thinking more about going necro book vs. right click items. I'm sure you've seen many abaddons go right click in pubs. So in the cases where say you did get farm early and your team needed damage from you. -I also think you are discounting the huge buff on lower level necro books. Lv1 necro is potent now, and I would say in most scenarios it is going to have a bigger team fight impact than an early vlads. To me Vlads is not a great item to rush as your first major item as while you're correct it scales nicely into late game it also is not as potent early game as some other items. -AC is a complete pain in the ass to build up on a poor farmer like abaddon. If you're rolling late game you can get it but honestly you probably already won the game at that point. -Now consider a necro book > drums > vlad buildup or something similar. All 3 items have nice buildups and follow a natural progression and the item order can be tweaked as the situation warrants. AC or whatever else can be picked up after that but again the game is probably over at that point. Curse + Drum active (which got buffed) + necro minions wrecks people early game. To me it just seems to be in your best interest to push your early advantage as abaddon rather than go late.
To me abbadon is about piling up small items, so in that regard vlad is just fine. The point about necrobook is good one too, as it has a pretty smooth build up. I can imagine oov + slow + necrobook would be so strong
attackspeedbuild --> PB's>mom>basher>molnjir>ac>abyssal & bkb or mkb prickbuild --> phaseboots>blademail>radiance>octarine core>abyssal>molnjir could be fun to play around with and win matches at the same time.
If you do this you are never gonna get out of low priority.
Going Necro first without any kind of sustain/farming item is gonna be a pain because every single creep camp will bring you lower in health. At least you'll need something like morbid mask or even a midas to make you able to stay on the map and keep farm coming in. You'll be forced to take fights on low hp or take more fountain trips if you have zero sustain items. I mean pretty much every farming melee hero builds mom/hod/vlad or regen items like vanguard/bf unless they have build in lifesteal/regen. You'll want one or the other and completing a Vlad seems like by far the best choice. If you really want that Necro, get it after Vlad.
Also AC isnt bad buildup really. Most heroes will go plate mail first. On aba you arent concerned with armor, your survivability is more than fine either way. So you pick up hyperstone first always. Hyperstone + Vlad is a good buildup from a farming perspective and not bad for fighting.
That said you are right Vlad isnt that hot of a first item. But really, neither is Necro1. If your concern is maximizing your effectiveness with your first 2-3k gold you'll probably want a Mek or strong utility items like Eul or something.
Strongest core Abaddon is farming dps role (safelane, mid, aggro dual/trilane farmer). Max passive first with two in aphotic. Bottle if mid or if your support will refill it with runes for you; isn't necessary.
Treads madness mael basher into whatever the team needs (abyssal if you can catch the most annoying enemy without blink, mjolnir if you need more aoe damage, moonshard if you need more single target damage, halberd or solar crest if you need to control the dps of someone other than your primary target, situationally bkb or pipe if you're getting controlled in excess of what aphotic can remove or if your team is getting wrecked by magic (Veno, AA, Zeus, etc), silver edge if you're fighting a void, mkb for other evasion, blink if you're getting kited too hard prior to your first auto-attack, etc). You can toss an orb of venom or wand in there while you have the slots, provided your farm isn't getting shut down prior to madness. Game gets much easier following madness, and you're actually scary following maelstrom pick-up.
I think we're on two different wavelengths here. I'm asking why a core Abaddon would choose to build his right-click and go for the long game (see post above) rather than maximize his strength in the early game and gain map control. Obviously it is situational based on team dynamics but I'm sure you've seen many Abaddons go this route with MoM, basher, etc. yet you hardly ever seen Abaddons go necro book (in whatever item order).
While Mek no doubt a great timing item for certain cores to push with, part of Mek's appeal as a first major item is also the tankiness it provides the carrier with stats/armor/burst heal. Abaddon doesn't need this as much as many other common Mek carriers like say SF does (who also happens to be a flash farmer who can hit a better Mek timing). Abaddon also doesn't have a huge mana pool. So ideally you want to defer to better Mek carriers. Late Mek is still better than no Mek though so it depends on the situation.
Also as a core Abaddon you should be pretty aggressive in lane and are hopefully laning with a complimentary hero (e.g. a ranged hero with a slow), so you're going to be wanting to grab some mix of wand, urn, or bottle. I don't really buy the argument that you need Vlads for the regen as you're going to need regen earlier to be aggressive in lane plus you're not some hero that is going to be flash farming the jungle or anything. When I say core I simply mean you were allocated lane farm, not that the team expects you to AFK farm. You're grabbing your first major item and pushing. I also still think you are vastly underestimating the strength of the buffed necro 1. The synergy with Curse is crazy strong.
Sure, because of his surviveability he can blind and burn the enemy team aggressively for longer, but he has no way to efficiently farm it in a reasonable amount of time, doesn't carry hard enough to warrant being out of the action for long enough to farm it, has far more pressing item needs however you plan to run him, and if you choose other items before it most of the time you'll find you need some other item more than radiance by that time.
Radiance is good on everyone, but that doesn't mean it's actually worth trying to build on them.
I Imagine Blade Mail works now with borrowed time? Anyone been trying it?
It could give people a reason to just ignore you for 4 seconds, and when played in 3 position at best it doesn't really matter. However you could also use ultimate to get out of a stun and then use the blade mail immediately. I often find the problem with the item to be that I get jumped, stunned and activate it when I am almost dead. Abaddon could get around it.
Blademail abba is probably pretty good if you're doing some clowny core build, but your ult is the last time you'd want to be using it. Nobody wants to hit you then anyway, so what's the point?
It doesnt. You dont take damage during borrowed time and as such you dont reflect any damage.
That said, blademail doesnt have to be a bad item. In a way its anti-synergy with borrowed time because of what I said above, but in another way its great because you can take damage on purpose and be fine. You see the enemy invoker unloading his meatball combo on a team mate? Blade mail and run into it. You got your ult to fall back on when you drop low, invoker doesnt. Also there a pretty good chance you get multiple blade mails off due to BT keeping you alive longer.
On May 23 2016 18:14 HollywoodHolocaust wrote: I Imagine Blade Mail works now with borrowed time? Anyone been trying it?
It could give people a reason to just ignore you for 4 seconds, and when played in 3 position at best it doesn't really matter. However you could also use ultimate to get out of a stun and then use the blade mail immediately. I often find the problem with the item to be that I get jumped, stunned and activate it when I am almost dead. Abaddon could get around it.
Blade Mail on Abba should still be a rather bad option in most cases. Abbadon wants to be hit and soak up as much dmg as possible, when burrowed time starts, good players will stop hitting you. With blademail you always want to be hit and take dmg. But as most items in dota, almost anything can be viable in a certain situation.
On Abbadon in general, I think he is a bit under used atm. I love playing him as a 5 in a bit of push oriented lineups, he can get some decent items even as a 5 because he just doesnt die, and can be a good element in a push due to his heal, shield and items as (arcanes, mek and a situational vlads or glimmer). Imo he also scales very well into lategame when picked as a #5.
On May 23 2016 18:53 Belisarius wrote: Blademail abba is probably pretty good if you're doing some clowny core build, but your ult is the last time you'd want to be using it. Nobody wants to hit you then anyway, so what's the point?
You would not get it with the primary goal of using it with borrowed time, but as a bonus. Like mentioned above, running into a Invoker's meat ball or Sven's cleave. Or ult out off a stun so you can activate it and deal damage when the big follow up combo hits.
But all this comes down to whether someone can confirm if it works or not.
EPT
