The Font of Avernus is the source of a family’s strength, a crack in primal stones from which vapors of prophetic power have issued for generations. Each newborn of the cavernous House Avernus is bathed in the black mist, and by this baptism they are given an innate connection to the mystic energies of the land. They grow up believing themselves fierce protectors of their lineal traditions, the customs of the realm–but what they really are protecting is the Font itself. And the motives of the mist are unclear.
When the infant Abaddon was bathed in the Font, they say something went awry. In the child’s eyes there flared a light of comprehension that startled all present and set the sacerdotes to whispering. He was raised with every expectation of following the path all scions of Avernus took–to train in war, that in times of need he might lead the family’s army in defense of the ancestral lands. But Abaddon was always one apart. Where others trained with weapons, he bent himself to meditation in the presence of the mist. He drank deep from the vapors that welled from the Font, learning to blend his spirit with the potency that flowed from far beneath the House; he became a creature of the black mist.
There was bitterness within the House Avernus–elders and young alike accusing him of neglecting his responsibilities. But all such accusations stopped when Abaddon rode into battle, and they saw how the powers of the mist had given him mastery over life and death beyond those of any lord the House had ever known.
This hero is usually a standard support that gets Urn, Arcanes, Mek, Drum, Vlads, and Wards, but I think a special mention goes to Mask of Madness. In pubs you can use it to take damage faster while ulting, and synergizes well with Curse of Avernus.
Aghanim's is a great item on him, in team fights he becomes a damage sponge absorbing 35% of damage taken. That is hugely significant and makes his ultimate suddenly the most valuable asset to the team.
I think Necro's Heartstopper Aura also erroneously heals Abaddon. HP removal should never heal Abaddon. Bloodseeker's ult does too, but that ultimate is just a mess and incorrectly behaves like pure damage instead of HP removal.
Great duo offlaner in the right setting. Pair him with a strong harasser. You generally do not want to pair him with someone with high kill potential because Abaddon will offer little or no synergy in that case. If you want a killing duo offlane you want 2x stunner/slowers/nukers. Abaddon should be paired with someone that can aggressively harass the enemy out of the lane. Walk past the creep and farm from their side of the creep equilibrium if you can, Abaddon allows for such plays. Then you sit there and happily farm, its up to them to make a move.
Good examples of strong offlane partners: Huskar, Weaver, Viper, Razor, Clinkz, Mirana.
Edit: Theres one really good combo if you're looking for kills too. Pair him with a boots first Clockwerk and have him run at people any chance you get at lvl 2.
On May 13 2014 03:55 TheYango wrote: Mentioned elsewhere, but Armlet is bugged to count the HP drain as damage for Borrowed Time.
On May 13 2014 04:55 aeroblaster wrote: I think Necro's Heartstopper Aura also erroneously heals Abaddon. HP removal should never heal Abaddon. Bloodseeker's ult does too, but that ultimate is just a mess and incorrectly behaves like pure damage instead of HP removal.
Does it actually say HP removal isnt supposed to heal him anywhere? To my knowledge most/all HP removal effects does heal him. If it would be 9 that didnt and 1 that did, that 1 would indeed seem like a bug. But thats quite far from the case, isnt it?
On May 13 2014 04:55 aeroblaster wrote: I think Necro's Heartstopper Aura also erroneously heals Abaddon. HP removal should never heal Abaddon. Bloodseeker's ult does too, but that ultimate is just a mess and incorrectly behaves like pure damage instead of HP removal.
Does it actually say HP removal isnt supposed to heal him anywhere? To my knowledge most/all HP removal effects does heal him. If it would be 9 that didnt and 1 that did, that 1 would indeed seem like a bug. But thats quite far from the case, isnt it?
I don't know anything about this particular case, but usually when you see people saying stuff like this, it means that in dota 1, it worked X way, and now it works Y way, and it is thus considered a bug.
IMO Abaddon's defining feature is the strong dispel associated with his Apothic Shield (removes stuns), making him a great counterpick in a defensive tri-lane vs. an offensive tri-lanes like Mirana + Bane/SD, or any comp that you know is going to be aggressive early looking for kills (i.e. Nightstalker). I don't think he's a great dual laner or carry, although in pubs you can play him as such (or anything really, it is pubs after all).
I'm betting high that Abaddon semi carry or strong support will be the winning strat of Ti4. it will be some Chinese teams or Fnatic crazy style team that will bring him to his real potential.
I never see mr A given enough space. But with Aghs, Blademail he be a strong pusher/defender. Phase boots in to drums/blademail then aghs. He could and should be the "aura guy-utility" that don't die. He is also quite flexible lategame and can really counter item builds of others, as he isn't depending on anything more then he has to be mobile.
How I play. (i haven't played with satanic in a while, but if you got that money, try it!!) If you Run in with blade mail on you be ignored, create some space. Then you Pop satanic/drums and try create some havoq. If your team is initiated on, Pop utli and start heal/shield and make dmg.
If you play with patience and some balls you can simply have a item/ability rotation , Blademail/Shield/satanic/utli. And try to use utli in the initiation to save teammates and have it ready if the fight/push last 50 seconds.
Items to rotate, the order to use it depends on the game. Blade mail, 4,5, 17 sec CD. Satanic 3,5 sec, 35 sec CD. Ulti. 7 seconds, 40 sec CD (max). Shield instant, 6 second CD.
I actually consider blademail to be one of the affordable item inte the game, also its components is extremely affordable/usable before the item is complete.
abaddon is like my favourite hero to play, even though i don't always end up winning with him. i tend to play hard support, so i go for tranquils/urn/mek into whatever is required. radiance as 6th slot for kicks ;p
i also go 4/1/1/1 and then max my shield. any advice in general with this?
also really fun to shield yourself and run at the enemy offlaner, there's just something psychological about it even if it's level 1 shield haha
On May 26 2014 20:04 4auir wrote: I'm betting high that Abaddon semi carry or strong support will be the winning strat of Ti4. it will be some Chinese teams or Fnatic crazy style team that will bring him to his real potential.
I never see mr A given enough space. But with Aghs, Blademail he be a strong pusher/defender. Phase boots in to drums/blademail then aghs. He could and should be the "aura guy-utility" that don't die. He is also quite flexible lategame and can really counter item builds of others, as he isn't depending on anything more then he has to be mobile.
How I play. (i haven't played with satanic in a while, but if you got that money, try it!!) If you Run in with blade mail on you be ignored, create some space. Then you Pop satanic/drums and try create some havoq. If your team is initiated on, Pop utli and start heal/shield and make dmg.
If you play with patience and some balls you can simply have a item/ability rotation , Blademail/Shield/satanic/utli. And try to use utli in the initiation to save teammates and have it ready if the fight/push last 50 seconds.
Items to rotate, the order to use it depends on the game. Blade mail, 4,5, 17 sec CD. Satanic 3,5 sec, 35 sec CD. Ulti. 7 seconds, 40 sec CD (max). Shield instant, 6 second CD.
I actually consider blademail to be one of the affordable item inte the game, also its components is extremely affordable/usable before the item is complete.
I think your reasoning is good but itemization strange. I started brining Aba to the offlane every time I play lately and I've been having very good results with it. The reasoning is as you say, be the aura/utility guy that doesnt die. But your item choices should be mek/vlad (early game first item) -> halberd/shiva/ac/agh/hex depending on situation. I've had very good success with that in the offlane (like 8-3 or something similar, not the greatest sample size but still). I like phase too but I can see the benefits of other boots too. Agh is interesting and I havent played around with it, but the other items are fairly straigh forward. I generally prefer vlad over mek as first item because it makes him very self-sustained and allows for basic jungling when nothing is happening on the map as opposed to sitting around with a mek doing nothing. But mek is definitely the superior choice if your team can find use for it.
He can function very well both as solo and duo offlaner and the offlane allows him to get those items as opposed to playing 4/5 position support where you'r happy getting anything beyond mek. Good movement speed, fairly tanky (especially with stout) self dispel and self shield is a toolkit very well fit for the offlane.
Occasionally when I'm winning offlane (not uncommon in 2v2 situation) I can even afford to go more rightclick oriented items like SnY over Halberd, skip shiva and go basher/abyssal instead.
As for your build, blade mail might have some merit to it but I found it counterintuitive. You want them to attack you because you dont die anyway and blademail works against that. And you should most definitely dont ever go satanic ever unless you're going pure carry build and even then not before 5th/6th slot.
@Kreb I agree on the Satanic, as very "luxurious" item.
I go, Basilius,tangos Starter kit. Then on to, Phase boots/drums/blademail. As blade mail/drums uses similar items, I tend to alter this order depending on game progression. I also buy a quelling blade sometimes. As Abaddon is a insanely easy last hitter and can now also farm woods here and there.
Now I have a Basilus, and usually someone other goes vlad so I buy Ogre club. But yeah, From here its up to you. Basher is awesome, Even butterfly endgame is cool. I find mana burn enemies the hardest, PL/Invoker..
My old build was go early threads boots, then helm of dominator in to dominator , crit or blademail. But I never play that greedy anymore. Last games with Abba 10-2, even as i managed to feed early and got to buy courier and give farm to Sven and other Russian carries in my team. As soon Aghs is up I never lose. I use my mana ALOT. I spam like I'm a wow healer xD.
Pretty much always max shield first. I tend to max curse after that nowadays as I feel mist coil got nerfed too hard the last go around. It does almost as much damage to you as it heals. Feels like the only use I get out of it is denying myself with it (-_-). Plus early on you don't really have the mana to spam it. Much better use of mana in teamfights to just spam shield over and over.
IMO if they are going to make Mist Coil do so much damage to Abaddon they should reduce the mana cost. Would make it a much more interesting spell.
On May 27 2014 01:11 MentalGNT wrote: Are you supposed to get one level in shield for the debuff-removal and max your heal first, or is maxing shield first the way to go?
Also, should I wait until level 10 before skilling curse of avernus?
A value point in curse at lvl 2/3/4 is definitely not bad if you expect to be hitting stuff (1v1/2v2/3v3 lanes or so). Other than that its mostly shield > coil > curse unless youre playing some kind of right click build.
Since one of my fave things to do in this game is saving people's lives (and getting a satisfying thanks) abaddon is one of my favourites.
Notably, he's an excellent counter against some of the most popular pub heroes. Dispelling the lockdown from pudge's dismember is pretty insane, and mirana's arrows will never trouble your team. You can also pretty much sustain a hero throughout the duration of Legion's duel, and prevent someone from dying through Doom or Ice Blast (aphotic shield, mist coil cant heal ice blasted units).
I almost always grab a casual sage mask early which I may or may not build into a basi/vladmirs later on. Mana is a pretty huge issue for this guy in the early game.
On May 27 2014 11:00 xAdra wrote: Since one of my fave things to do in this game is saving people's lives (and getting a satisfying thanks) abaddon is one of my favourites.
Notably, he's an excellent counter against some of the most popular pub heroes. Dispelling the lockdown from pudge's dismember is pretty insane, and mirana's arrows will never trouble your team. You can also pretty much sustain a hero throughout the duration of Legion's duel, and prevent someone from dying through Doom or Ice Blast (aphotic shield, mist coil cant heal ice blasted units).
I almost always grab a casual sage mask early which I may or may not build into a basi/vladmirs later on. Mana is a pretty huge issue for this guy in the early game.
Don't forget he counters also batrider. He does have some mana problems early but a magic stick will compensate for it.
On May 26 2014 20:07 opterown wrote: abaddon is like my favourite hero to play, even though i don't always end up winning with him. i tend to play hard support, so i go for tranquils/urn/mek into whatever is required. radiance as 6th slot for kicks ;p
i also go 4/1/1/1 and then max my shield. any advice in general with this?
also really fun to shield yourself and run at the enemy offlaner, there's just something psychological about it even if it's level 1 shield haha
I usually max shield first. Tend to skip a point on my E until both Q/W are maxed. Usually go for arcanes, urn, mek. I play him usually as a 5. Aghs is really solid in him because it redirects damage from your team to you.
On May 26 2014 20:07 opterown wrote: abaddon is like my favourite hero to play, even though i don't always end up winning with him. i tend to play hard support, so i go for tranquils/urn/mek into whatever is required. radiance as 6th slot for kicks ;p
i also go 4/1/1/1 and then max my shield. any advice in general with this?
also really fun to shield yourself and run at the enemy offlaner, there's just something psychological about it even if it's level 1 shield haha
I usually max shield first. Tend to skip a point on my E until both Q/W are maxed. Usually go for arcanes, urn, mek. I play him usually as a 5. Aghs is really solid in him because it redirects damage from your team to you.
You don't a value point in Curse for a team wide 15% movement speed buff useful?
I almost always go Shield/Curse build with urn/phase boots and sometimes drums for full out ganking. Curse is really, really good in the laning stage and mid game skirmishes. I don't think maxing coil is worth it before those two unless you have reason to believe your team won't be ganking at all.
If you're ganking that's all the more reason to have points into Coil. You're far less likely to be able to finish a gank with higher curse than you are with higher levels of Mist Coil, especially against good opponents. It's a very strong nuke and by the time you've got levels into it you should have urn/tranquils done negating the HP cost of the nuke.
1 point in Curse is fine, but even then Coil is just too strong to pass up for too long.
So I've been playing against Abaddon in amateur scrims lately. Almost always in a defensive trilane position, we noticed that we can't ever get a kill in an aggressive trilane against him. Anyone have different experiences against him?
Isn't that more or less the point of the hero? It's similar to playing against Tree or Dazzle. He's there to keep people alive and make you waste your laning phase.
Best idea I can come up with is a lot of burst damage and try focusing him down early (like level 1/2). Bane + Kotl may work, but you really need to make sure he doesn't get levels or else you're in for a bad time.
On May 28 2014 13:06 TBone- wrote: So I've been playing against Abaddon in amateur scrims lately. Almost always in a defensive trilane position, we noticed that we can't ever get a kill in an aggressive trilane against him. Anyone have different experiences against him?
He's a pretty good ban if your plan is to aggro tri.
If they pick abaddon, pick greed. Highly unlikely they have a lot of roaming power. Let them have an unkillable lane, farm more than them and kill them in mid game.
On May 28 2014 13:06 TBone- wrote: So I've been playing against Abaddon in amateur scrims lately. Almost always in a defensive trilane position, we noticed that we can't ever get a kill in an aggressive trilane against him. Anyone have different experiences against him?
I said something similar earlier in the thread, but thats why you should give him the right lane partners. You really want to lane together with heroes that can harass the enemy out of the lane and then win the lane by farm. You want them to be forced to initiate into you or lose the lane. As an example, duo/tri-laning him with a WK i would say is a bad idea. WK is surely a good trilaner, but you want to pair him with stuns like venge or whatever so you constantly threaten kill through chainstunning. Abaddon wont fit in a trilane with WK because he can do little to nothing to help if WK wants to initiate.
On the other hand if theres a good harasser on the other side like Viper or Weaver. Both those will easily harass WK out of lane in a farming situation. But if WK is paired with another two stunners/nukers WK might still be in an advantaged situation simply because if a Viper/Weaver tries to farm he might get chainstunned and dies. Enter Abaddon. Hes the hero the flips back the advantage to its starting position again because he can negate initiation. And thats why hes so good together with strong harassers (not strong killers with stuns/slows/nukes).
On May 28 2014 13:06 TBone- wrote: So I've been playing against Abaddon in amateur scrims lately. Almost always in a defensive trilane position, we noticed that we can't ever get a kill in an aggressive trilane against him. Anyone have different experiences against him?
I said something similar earlier in the thread, but thats why you should give him the right lane partners. You really want to lane together with heroes that can harass the enemy out of the lane and then win the lane by farm. You want them to be forced to initiate into you or lose the lane. As an example, duo/tri-laning him with a WK i would say is a bad idea. WK is surely a good trilaner, but you want to pair him with stuns like venge or whatever so you constantly threaten kill through chainstunning. Abaddon wont fit in a trilane with WK because he can do little to nothing to help if WK wants to initiate.
On the other hand if theres a good harasser on the other side like Viper or Weaver. Both those will easily harass WK out of lane in a farming situation. But if WK is paired with another two stunners/nukers WK might still be in an advantaged situation simply because if a Viper/Weaver tries to farm he might get chainstunned and dies. Enter Abaddon. Hes the hero the flips back the advantage to its starting position again because he can negate initiation. And thats why hes so good together with strong harassers (not strong killers with stuns/slows/nukes).
If you know enemy is going to aggro tri with chain stuns you can go 2-1-1 with Abaddon + offlaner in safe lane (i.e. Bristle) and your hard carry and support go offlane. A lot of common offlaners need to be chain stunned to be killed and Abaddon totally counters that. In addition to being able to control the creep equilibrium with pulls and you have a good chance to win your lane 2v3.
Don't build mek on abaddon if he is played as a 5th position. Urn is almost always a must on him. I personally find arcane boots necessary unless your team have 2 or more pairs already, in that case skip arcane and prioritize other items.
This hero is an incredibly good counter pick against Lifestealer (focus on dispelling open wound than other small stuns), Venomancer (no longer able to dispell nova with shield like pre 6.82 but still good to dispell Gale), Mirana, Axe (post 6.82 you can dispell hunger with shield), Skywrath, Bounty Hunter (dispell Track to deny vision) and Slardar (dispell his ult to deny vision) etc.
Note that your mist coil/aphotic shield have extremly poor synergy with magic immunity so avoid picking him as teammate with hero that rely on early bkb, lifestealer and omniknight.
In team fight or pushing stay behind your team, DO NOT go up front and tank for your team, yes you have ult but you would've have bigger impact by NOT being trapped in the same AOE disable as the rest of your team so you can dispell with shield and heal with coil/item. Watch pro games and you will see abaddon turning the tide of battle by staying out of chrono/dp silence to heal/dispell his teammate.
Just a single point of Curse grant full movement speed reduction so I suggest putting a value point in by lvl4, but its sitautional as you rarely will be in position to abuse that.
Note that Abaddon's two spells both have Very long cast point, shield have incredibly short range and coil have decent range, when you are running to aid your teammate who is already low in hp i would suggest coil first than shield.
Do not forget that upon activation abaddon's ultimate will purge himself off majority of debuffs in this game.
As a defensive support its very rare that you would roam for aggresion to other lanes, but it is EXTREMLY important to have a tp on you ALL THE TIME so you can aid other lanes. This is very likely to happen when enemy realize its impossible to be aggresive vs that lane you are currently at.
When drafting him keep in mind htat Abaddon is a mid game support that unlike other defensive support such as dazzle/omniknight that scales way into late/end game, he is incredible as a complement to pushy lineup, have extremly good synergy with heroes that have mobility/initiators (shield before that go in) or heroes that contribute continueously during a team fight (death prophet, necrophos, viper, bristleback, centaur warrunner, pugna etc). I personally dont advice you to draft him just to gurantee a PL/Spectre to survive laning phase, rather a lineup that favors active mid game phase. Like other defensive supports it is incredibly beneficial to draft him vs a gank heavy lineup.
On September 30 2014 22:15 goldspoon wrote: Don't build mek on abaddon if he is played as a 5th position. Urn is almost always a must on him. I personally find arcane boots necessary unless your team have 2 or more pairs already, in that case skip arcane and prioritize other items.
This hero is an incredibly good counter pick against Lifestealer (focus on dispelling open wound than other small stuns), Venomancer (no longer able to dispell nova with shield like pre 6.82 but still good to dispell Gale), Mirana, Axe (post 6.82 you can dispell hunger with shield), Skywrath, Bounty Hunter (dispell Track to deny vision) and Slardar (dispell his ult to deny vision) etc.
Note that your mist coil/aphotic shield have extremly poor synergy with magic immunity so avoid picking him as teammate with hero that rely on early bkb, lifestealer and omniknight.
In team fight or pushing stay behind your team, DO NOT go up front and tank for your team, yes you have ult but you would've have bigger impact by NOT being trapped in the same AOE disable as the rest of your team so you can dispell with shield and heal with coil/item. Watch pro games and you will see abaddon turning the tide of battle by staying out of chrono/dp silence to heal/dispell his teammate.
Just a single point of Curse grant full movement speed reduction so I suggest putting a value point in by lvl4, but its sitautional as you rarely will be in position to abuse that.
Note that Abaddon's two spells both have Very long cast point, shield have incredibly short range and coil have decent range, when you are running to aid your teammate who is already low in hp i would suggest coil first than shield.
Do not forget that upon activation abaddon's ultimate will purge himself off majority of debuffs in this game.
As a defensive support its very rare that you would roam for aggresion to other lanes, but it is EXTREMLY important to have a tp on you ALL THE TIME so you can aid other lanes. This is very likely to happen when enemy realize its impossible to be aggresive vs that lane you are currently at.
When drafting him keep in mind htat Abaddon is a mid game support that unlike other defensive support such as dazzle/omniknight that scales way into late/end game, he is incredible as a complement to pushy lineup, have extremly good synergy with heroes that have mobility/initiators (shield before that go in) or heroes that contribute continueously during a team fight (death prophet, necrophos, viper, bristleback, centaur warrunner, pugna etc). I personally dont advice you to draft him just to gurantee a PL/Spectre to survive laning phase, rather a lineup that favors active mid game phase. Like other defensive supports it is incredibly beneficial to draft him vs a gank heavy lineup.
Why no Meka? I think with Bottle, you don't need Urn and should go Meka.
On September 30 2014 23:35 Torte de Lini wrote: Ah, we're assuming he is P5, my bad.
In most games I play, everyone expects Meka on Abaddon, with bottle, you can create some early team-fights/dives
Don't most games people expect Abaddon to be support though? He's a terrible farmer so unless he gets CS in lane he's going to be getting a very slow Mek since he needs Arcane Boots to support it. Abaddon is pretty item independent and really just needs mana items and is very suited for the 5 position.
On September 30 2014 22:15 goldspoon wrote: In team fight or pushing stay behind your team, DO NOT go up front and tank for your team, yes you have ult but you would've have bigger impact by NOT being trapped in the same AOE disable as the rest of your team so you can dispell with shield and heal with coil/item. Watch pro games and you will see abaddon turning the tide of battle by staying out of chrono/dp silence to heal/dispell his teammate.
Just a single point of Curse grant full movement speed reduction so I suggest putting a value point in by lvl4, but its sitautional as you rarely will be in position to abuse that.
I think the value point in Curse is almost always worth it. While you're correct in saying to stay back in big team fights, earlier in the game where there are more small skirmishes you can go in and tank for your squishier teammates and it can really make the difference. If you have kill potential in your lane you can grab an OoV too and really pile on the slow. In the past when the laning phase went terrible and I was completely dead broke I would grab extra points in Curse since I had no mana to even use Coil, but with the rune changes this is probably no longer applicable if you can grab a bottle.
On September 30 2014 22:15 goldspoon wrote: When drafting him keep in mind htat Abaddon is a mid game support that unlike other defensive support such as dazzle/omniknight that scales way into late/end game, he is incredible as a complement to pushy lineup, have extremly good synergy with heroes that have mobility/initiators (shield before that go in) or heroes that contribute continueously during a team fight (death prophet, necrophos, viper, bristleback, centaur warrunner, pugna etc). I personally dont advice you to draft him just to gurantee a PL/Spectre to survive laning phase, rather a lineup that favors active mid game phase. Like other defensive supports it is incredibly beneficial to draft him vs a gank heavy lineup.
Yep completely agree but to just add to this Abaddon is also great in a defensive tri-lane vs. an aggro tri-lane since they typically rely on chain stuns to get kills. It is really Abaddon's short CD dispel that is what defines the hero IMO, and pairs very well high damage carries who are prone to getting kited.
On September 30 2014 23:35 Torte de Lini wrote: Ah, we're assuming he is P5, my bad.
In most games I play, everyone expects Meka on Abaddon, with bottle, you can create some early team-fights/dives
Don't most games people expect Abaddon to be support though? He's a terrible farmer so unless he gets CS in lane he's going to be getting a very slow Mek since he needs Arcane Boots to support it. Abaddon is pretty item independent and really just needs mana items and is very suited for the 5 position.
On September 30 2014 22:15 goldspoon wrote: In team fight or pushing stay behind your team, DO NOT go up front and tank for your team, yes you have ult but you would've have bigger impact by NOT being trapped in the same AOE disable as the rest of your team so you can dispell with shield and heal with coil/item. Watch pro games and you will see abaddon turning the tide of battle by staying out of chrono/dp silence to heal/dispell his teammate.
Just a single point of Curse grant full movement speed reduction so I suggest putting a value point in by lvl4, but its sitautional as you rarely will be in position to abuse that.
I think the value point in Curse is almost always worth it. While you're correct in saying to stay back in big team fights, earlier in the game where there are more small skirmishes you can go in and tank for your squishier teammates and it can really make the difference. If you have kill potential in your lane you can grab an OoV too and really pile on the slow. In the past when the laning phase went terrible and I was completely dead broke I would grab extra points in Curse since I had no mana to even use Coil, but with the rune changes this is probably no longer applicable if you can grab a bottle.
On September 30 2014 22:15 goldspoon wrote: When drafting him keep in mind htat Abaddon is a mid game support that unlike other defensive support such as dazzle/omniknight that scales way into late/end game, he is incredible as a complement to pushy lineup, have extremly good synergy with heroes that have mobility/initiators (shield before that go in) or heroes that contribute continueously during a team fight (death prophet, necrophos, viper, bristleback, centaur warrunner, pugna etc). I personally dont advice you to draft him just to gurantee a PL/Spectre to survive laning phase, rather a lineup that favors active mid game phase. Like other defensive supports it is incredibly beneficial to draft him vs a gank heavy lineup.
Yep completely agree but to just add to this Abaddon is also great in a defensive tri-lane vs. an aggro tri-lane since they typically rely on chain stuns to get kills. It is really Abaddon's short CD dispel that is what defines the hero IMO, and pairs very well high damage carries who are prone to getting kited.
Typically yeah, I guess you're right. In my match, I got Meka at 20 minutes and that was after dying twice and getting arcane/bottle/wand
On September 30 2014 16:06 Torte de Lini wrote: Bottle makes this hero so goddamn easy
This brings up a interesting point, which maybe deserves a thread of its own. I've been thinking which heroes benefit from the new rune system particularly: so far my thoughts centre on heroes with high mobility so that they don't spend too much time collecting the rune, and who benefit from the mana and heal. My list so far is Abbadon, Slardar and Io; I haven't tried Abbadon yet and I'm not a good enough player to use Io effectively, but Slardar really does well with the heal to fix the damage he takes from being in the thick of things and mana to let him spam his stun.
On September 30 2014 16:06 Torte de Lini wrote: Bottle makes this hero so goddamn easy
This brings up a interesting point, which maybe deserves a thread of its own. I've been thinking which heroes benefit from the new rune system particularly: so far my thoughts centre on heroes with high mobility so that they don't spend too much time collecting the rune, and who benefit from the mana and heal. My list so far is Abbadon, Slardar and Io; I haven't tried Abbadon yet and I'm not a good enough player to use Io effectively, but Slardar really does well with the heal to fix the damage he takes from being in the thick of things and mana to let him spam his stun.
Anyone else been thinking along these lines?
Don't overthink it. The change helps all supports.
What about mid abaddon after the rune change? Most of tanky mid-meka carriers got nerfed pretty hard. (Sorry Fata.) He can farm well till level 6 with his extra cheap spammable mist coil, his tankiness deters opponent supports to gank mid with smoke. He isn't a good farmer but at the late game Aghanim upgrade is extremely powerful. "With Aghanim's Scepter, the effective health of Abaddon's nearby allies will be increased by 53.85%." (From wiki for 7 seconds ofc.)
Even though icefrog nerfed early game tower pushes, his skill spam will keep you alive for t2 pushes. Basicly, Bottle > Arcane > Mek > Aghs.
Position 2 (mid) Abaddon is like the worst spot for him. As melee mid you pretty much want a wave clear (DK/Magnus style) or you'll be harassed out of farm way too easy against many ranged. Sure if you end up against a similarly weak mid, but as you say, anything works then. If you really dont wanna play him as support, go preferably offlane (its actually pretty good) otherwise safelane (not very good...).
Mid abaddon is bad because you're already a melee hero with zero kill potential, and you have nothing to effectively clear waves. Its just a recipe to get totally destroyed in a lane.
Abaddon is an easy win hero. You just need to spam your heals and your job is done. Shield is disgusting against lineups with little disables. He is such a high priority target, yet you can't kill him quickly enough.
I've been having a lot of success with abaddon offlane. I've won 13 out of 14 of my last games from 3500-4k with the following strategy. I buy 3 branches, a tango, and a clarity then buy bottle as soon as i get 700 gold. I try to get phase, bottle, full wand, and vlads by 15 minutes and then proceed to join up with the team and skirmish. With those items I have lots of sustain in team fights.
Is there a better way to play abaddon or better itemization that I could be utilizing? Any input would be appreciated.
On October 09 2014 11:35 beachbeachy wrote: I've been having a lot of success with abaddon offlane. I've won 13 out of 14 of my last games from 3500-4k with the following strategy. I buy 3 branches, a tango, and a clarity then buy bottle as soon as i get 700 gold. I try to get phase, bottle, full wand, and vlads by 15 minutes and then proceed to join up with the team and skirmish. With those items I have lots of sustain in team fights.
Is there a better way to play abaddon or better itemization that I could be utilizing? Any input would be appreciated.
Well firstly you can avoid going vlads first. Basically whatever you can achieve with vlads at that stage, you can achieve without. Build a more useful item.
On October 09 2014 11:35 beachbeachy wrote: I've been having a lot of success with abaddon offlane. I've won 13 out of 14 of my last games from 3500-4k with the following strategy. I buy 3 branches, a tango, and a clarity then buy bottle as soon as i get 700 gold. I try to get phase, bottle, full wand, and vlads by 15 minutes and then proceed to join up with the team and skirmish. With those items I have lots of sustain in team fights.
Is there a better way to play abaddon or better itemization that I could be utilizing? Any input would be appreciated.
Aba offlane is pretty legit. And the build is identical to the one I mostly used except I dont get bottle. I always felt sustainability was fine with just wand + vlad. That said after the rune change getting a bottle is so much more viable so I wouldnt call it a bad choice anyway.
And dont autobuild vlads if theres no other cores benefiting from it. It doesnt have to be a bad choice but consider alternatives. Though if there are it should be your go to item. Afterwards you either build full aura/utility (halberd/shiva/ac/agh/sheep/necro) or you can go semi rightclick (halberd/ac/sny/basher/maelstrom), but dont go semi rightclick unless you're kinda snowballing from a good laning phase and early fights.
And I guess games might look different at 3.5-4k, but not joining before 15min seems very late. You're battle ready if you hit lvl 6 and you dont need more than just phase + wand, you dont need to wait for vlad. Also consider getting an OoV.
Yeah no idea why you would lane for 15 mins as Abbaddon. He doesn't need much in the way of items to be effective early.
I also don't get the point of building right click on him even if snowballing other than for funsies. If you're stomping and swimmimg in gold build a necro + auras and end the game.
In order for abaddon to properly function, he needs a little bit of farm and levels to get going. I like playing him in the offlane or in duel lanes. If you can get a bottle, wand, and boots, you can start to make an impact. Unless you're picking up mek, I would go phase boots > vlads or necro.
Don't play him as a traditional semi carry. If you snowball in team fights, then so be it, but I would suggest playing him as position 3 at most.
On October 17 2014 23:14 beachbeachy wrote: In order for abaddon to properly function, he needs a little bit of farm and levels to get going. I like playing him in the offlane or in duel lanes. If you can get a bottle, wand, and boots, you can start to make an impact. Unless you're picking up mek, I would go phase boots > vlads or necro.
Don't play him as a traditional semi carry. If you snowball in team fights, then so be it, but I would suggest playing him as position 3 at most.
So you're saying that position 4/5 support abaddon doesn't work?
On October 17 2014 23:14 beachbeachy wrote: In order for abaddon to properly function, he needs a little bit of farm and levels to get going. I like playing him in the offlane or in duel lanes. If you can get a bottle, wand, and boots, you can start to make an impact. Unless you're picking up mek, I would go phase boots > vlads or necro.
Don't play him as a traditional semi carry. If you snowball in team fights, then so be it, but I would suggest playing him as position 3 at most.
So you're saying that position 4/5 support abaddon doesn't work?
I'm saying don't play him as anything higher than 3, as in 1, or 2.
On October 17 2014 23:14 beachbeachy wrote: In order for abaddon to properly function, he needs a little bit of farm and levels to get going. I like playing him in the offlane or in duel lanes. If you can get a bottle, wand, and boots, you can start to make an impact. Unless you're picking up mek, I would go phase boots > vlads or necro.
Don't play him as a traditional semi carry. If you snowball in team fights, then so be it, but I would suggest playing him as position 3 at most.
So you're saying that position 4/5 support abaddon doesn't work?
I read it as that he was similar to Rhasta in that you want to get your farm and levels asap. Which IMO is true.
-While Necro is a good item on Abaddon, he's not going to have the farm as a support to get it at a reasonable timing. -I don't know why you would want to offlane Abaddon. His primary function is as a defensive lane support, and really his defining attribute in the laning phase is his low CD dispel so he's very effective vs. an aggro tri-lane. If you wanted an offlane core I can think of many better offlanes.
On October 18 2014 02:56 Skyro wrote: -While Necro is a good item on Abaddon, he's not going to have the farm as a support to get it at a reasonable timing. -I don't know why you would want to offlane Abaddon. His primary function is as a defensive lane support, and really his defining attribute in the laning phase is his low CD dispel so he's very effective vs. an aggro tri-lane. If you wanted an offlane core I can think of many better offlanes.
Have you tried him offlane with a bottle? It works really well actually.
I personally think abaddon shines in early/mid game team fights when he has enough sustain to consistently cast his spells for the entire duration. If he's position 5 and even 4 to an extent, that's not likely to happen at all - he's going to cast his shield and coil like twice and then run away.
If abaddon gets the basic essential items he needs he can become a strong backbone in the team fight where your team is able to play far more aggressively because they know you're behind them.
On May 11 2015 00:55 Terrorbladder wrote: Is core Abaddon actually viable? What do you build for him to get damage and solve his problem of having to run at people?
most core abaddons i see go (midas) sny (bkb) basher
sny helps run at people faster, bkb is necessary if you're going to get kited by non-ult lockdown
i don't think abaddon is like only a defensive support, he's good in offensive dual lanes too (+axe or +weaver or something)
On May 11 2015 03:59 Terrorbladder wrote: Do you buy Euls on him sometimes to counter tp?
i'd say you'd want more reason than to just counter tp to get euls (stuff to dodge?), because otherwise you're probably going basher->eventually abyssal anyway and those stats are way more useful than the euls int/regen
Is there some reason most core Abaddons don't go fast necro book? If allocated early lane farm you should have more success pushing with a fast necro book and getting early map control instead of trying to get into a right-clicking arms race with a poor farmer like Abaddon. There's strong synergy with curse and necro minions and Abaddon is a great aura carrier.
Core Abaddon (and by core you should never be more than #3) should focus on utility.
Personally I think if you're going for some kind of push you can build those items (mek/pipe/necro) but that kinda heavily depends on the game going that way and your team getting off to a good start so you're in a position to push. Necro3 as a fighting item definitely isnt your best 5k spent. Otherwise the best utility is likely to be an aura carrier. So you go Vlad -> AC, much like a Brewmaster except no Blink.
This is good for many reasons. - Aba doesnt die first like ever. You'll be alive to keep all auras active. - It doesnt really have any weak timings. If the game ends with you only having vlad, thats a good item to have spent 2.3k on. If the game ends with you having Vlad+AC, thats also good items to have spent 7.5k on. Comparatively if you bought mek as first item it will fall off and you have no farming mechanic whatsoever so any further items will be delayed. Vlad lets ju both stay on the map due to regen as well as lets you clear a bunch of neutrals to keep some kind of farm coming in. - Its an item build which both is good at 20min and at 50min. - It sets you up to become a semi-carry should you have a good game and the game goes on late.
After Vlad+AC you go either semi-carry route (abyssal, once again same as Brewmaster build) or full utility (shiva/agh/hex/halberd). Though you'll rarely see any of those items because your item progress will likely be slow due to your lacking farming ability. But once in a while you'll get Abyssal too and while you'll never ever be as good as a proper carry, your right clicks at least arent just tickling anymore.
-I was thinking more about going necro book vs. right click items. I'm sure you've seen many abaddons go right click in pubs. So in the cases where say you did get farm early and your team needed damage from you. -I also think you are discounting the huge buff on lower level necro books. Lv1 necro is potent now, and I would say in most scenarios it is going to have a bigger team fight impact than an early vlads. To me Vlads is not a great item to rush as your first major item as while you're correct it scales nicely into late game it also is not as potent early game as some other items. -AC is a complete pain in the ass to build up on a poor farmer like abaddon. If you're rolling late game you can get it but honestly you probably already won the game at that point. -Now consider a necro book > drums > vlad buildup or something similar. All 3 items have nice buildups and follow a natural progression and the item order can be tweaked as the situation warrants. AC or whatever else can be picked up after that but again the game is probably over at that point. Curse + Drum active (which got buffed) + necro minions wrecks people early game. To me it just seems to be in your best interest to push your early advantage as abaddon rather than go late.
To me abbadon is about piling up small items, so in that regard vlad is just fine. The point about necrobook is good one too, as it has a pretty smooth build up. I can imagine oov + slow + necrobook would be so strong
attackspeedbuild --> PB's>mom>basher>molnjir>ac>abyssal & bkb or mkb prickbuild --> phaseboots>blademail>radiance>octarine core>abyssal>molnjir could be fun to play around with and win matches at the same time.
If you do this you are never gonna get out of low priority.
Going Necro first without any kind of sustain/farming item is gonna be a pain because every single creep camp will bring you lower in health. At least you'll need something like morbid mask or even a midas to make you able to stay on the map and keep farm coming in. You'll be forced to take fights on low hp or take more fountain trips if you have zero sustain items. I mean pretty much every farming melee hero builds mom/hod/vlad or regen items like vanguard/bf unless they have build in lifesteal/regen. You'll want one or the other and completing a Vlad seems like by far the best choice. If you really want that Necro, get it after Vlad.
Also AC isnt bad buildup really. Most heroes will go plate mail first. On aba you arent concerned with armor, your survivability is more than fine either way. So you pick up hyperstone first always. Hyperstone + Vlad is a good buildup from a farming perspective and not bad for fighting.
That said you are right Vlad isnt that hot of a first item. But really, neither is Necro1. If your concern is maximizing your effectiveness with your first 2-3k gold you'll probably want a Mek or strong utility items like Eul or something.
Strongest core Abaddon is farming dps role (safelane, mid, aggro dual/trilane farmer). Max passive first with two in aphotic. Bottle if mid or if your support will refill it with runes for you; isn't necessary.
Treads madness mael basher into whatever the team needs (abyssal if you can catch the most annoying enemy without blink, mjolnir if you need more aoe damage, moonshard if you need more single target damage, halberd or solar crest if you need to control the dps of someone other than your primary target, situationally bkb or pipe if you're getting controlled in excess of what aphotic can remove or if your team is getting wrecked by magic (Veno, AA, Zeus, etc), silver edge if you're fighting a void, mkb for other evasion, blink if you're getting kited too hard prior to your first auto-attack, etc). You can toss an orb of venom or wand in there while you have the slots, provided your farm isn't getting shut down prior to madness. Game gets much easier following madness, and you're actually scary following maelstrom pick-up.
I think we're on two different wavelengths here. I'm asking why a core Abaddon would choose to build his right-click and go for the long game (see post above) rather than maximize his strength in the early game and gain map control. Obviously it is situational based on team dynamics but I'm sure you've seen many Abaddons go this route with MoM, basher, etc. yet you hardly ever seen Abaddons go necro book (in whatever item order).
While Mek no doubt a great timing item for certain cores to push with, part of Mek's appeal as a first major item is also the tankiness it provides the carrier with stats/armor/burst heal. Abaddon doesn't need this as much as many other common Mek carriers like say SF does (who also happens to be a flash farmer who can hit a better Mek timing). Abaddon also doesn't have a huge mana pool. So ideally you want to defer to better Mek carriers. Late Mek is still better than no Mek though so it depends on the situation.
Also as a core Abaddon you should be pretty aggressive in lane and are hopefully laning with a complimentary hero (e.g. a ranged hero with a slow), so you're going to be wanting to grab some mix of wand, urn, or bottle. I don't really buy the argument that you need Vlads for the regen as you're going to need regen earlier to be aggressive in lane plus you're not some hero that is going to be flash farming the jungle or anything. When I say core I simply mean you were allocated lane farm, not that the team expects you to AFK farm. You're grabbing your first major item and pushing. I also still think you are vastly underestimating the strength of the buffed necro 1. The synergy with Curse is crazy strong.
Sure, because of his surviveability he can blind and burn the enemy team aggressively for longer, but he has no way to efficiently farm it in a reasonable amount of time, doesn't carry hard enough to warrant being out of the action for long enough to farm it, has far more pressing item needs however you plan to run him, and if you choose other items before it most of the time you'll find you need some other item more than radiance by that time.
Radiance is good on everyone, but that doesn't mean it's actually worth trying to build on them.
I Imagine Blade Mail works now with borrowed time? Anyone been trying it?
It could give people a reason to just ignore you for 4 seconds, and when played in 3 position at best it doesn't really matter. However you could also use ultimate to get out of a stun and then use the blade mail immediately. I often find the problem with the item to be that I get jumped, stunned and activate it when I am almost dead. Abaddon could get around it.
Blademail abba is probably pretty good if you're doing some clowny core build, but your ult is the last time you'd want to be using it. Nobody wants to hit you then anyway, so what's the point?
It doesnt. You dont take damage during borrowed time and as such you dont reflect any damage.
That said, blademail doesnt have to be a bad item. In a way its anti-synergy with borrowed time because of what I said above, but in another way its great because you can take damage on purpose and be fine. You see the enemy invoker unloading his meatball combo on a team mate? Blade mail and run into it. You got your ult to fall back on when you drop low, invoker doesnt. Also there a pretty good chance you get multiple blade mails off due to BT keeping you alive longer.
On May 23 2016 18:14 HollywoodHolocaust wrote: I Imagine Blade Mail works now with borrowed time? Anyone been trying it?
It could give people a reason to just ignore you for 4 seconds, and when played in 3 position at best it doesn't really matter. However you could also use ultimate to get out of a stun and then use the blade mail immediately. I often find the problem with the item to be that I get jumped, stunned and activate it when I am almost dead. Abaddon could get around it.
Blade Mail on Abba should still be a rather bad option in most cases. Abbadon wants to be hit and soak up as much dmg as possible, when burrowed time starts, good players will stop hitting you. With blademail you always want to be hit and take dmg. But as most items in dota, almost anything can be viable in a certain situation.
On Abbadon in general, I think he is a bit under used atm. I love playing him as a 5 in a bit of push oriented lineups, he can get some decent items even as a 5 because he just doesnt die, and can be a good element in a push due to his heal, shield and items as (arcanes, mek and a situational vlads or glimmer). Imo he also scales very well into lategame when picked as a #5.
On May 23 2016 18:53 Belisarius wrote: Blademail abba is probably pretty good if you're doing some clowny core build, but your ult is the last time you'd want to be using it. Nobody wants to hit you then anyway, so what's the point?
You would not get it with the primary goal of using it with borrowed time, but as a bonus. Like mentioned above, running into a Invoker's meat ball or Sven's cleave. Or ult out off a stun so you can activate it and deal damage when the big follow up combo hits.
But all this comes down to whether someone can confirm if it works or not.
On May 23 2016 18:53 Belisarius wrote: Blademail abba is probably pretty good if you're doing some clowny core build, but your ult is the last time you'd want to be using it. Nobody wants to hit you then anyway, so what's the point?
You would not get it with the primary goal of using it with borrowed time, but as a bonus. Like mentioned above, running into a Invoker's meat ball or Sven's cleave. Or ult out off a stun so you can activate it and deal damage when the big follow up combo hits.
But all this comes down to whether someone can confirm if it works or not.
I just tested it in a lobby: Blademail and Borrowed time activated at the same time and you still reflect the damage. So Abaddon is healed by the damage and the opponents get damaged by the blademail return. It's also the same for aphotic shield. The shielded target absorbs the damage, but the attacking targets still take damage from blademail return.
But obviously enemies don't want to damage you when borrowed time is activated so i think blademail is still a rather questionable item.
Radiance whe he's 1 pos I haven't made up my mind on, or 1 pos in general.
I think offlane aba is great, but radiance is pretty terrible. Usually you crush your lane, have phase vlads or hod, are dominating the game, then waste your advantage by spending 10 mins farming a radiance. It's been awful every time I try it and it even looks awful when pros (bulba!!!!) do it. On that note with hod dead I'm not 100% sure on standard build. I think phase vlads I don't think you go drums anymore (I used to) solar crest is option though for first item. It's quite good.
Worth watching to see what happens when Abba gets top networth and basically most of his dream items. He had a pretty good mid game, but when once it got late the team just did not have a draft that could capitalize off of an annoying abbadon.
Worth watching to see what happens when Abba gets top networth and basically most of his dream items. He had a pretty good mid game, but when once it got late the team just did not have a draft that could capitalize off of an annoying abbadon.
Also fucken right click venomancer that game....
I feel like a blademail would have done wonders that game
I've been running aba in the offlane, HotD, phase, urn into radiance. 0 4 4. It's surprisingly good.
Radiance is not too hard to farm, you don't need to afk farm it, you can fight pretty well too, aba is very strong/obnoxious with those items, if gotten in a timely manner.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/f/fa/Abaddon_Large.png)
