Cons: *Miss level 5-9 solo kill timing window *Late blink dagger *Stampede damage is underwhelming *Melee support in lane *Little counter-push
Mixed *Tanky enough to trade hits with the offlaner, but low engagement range means he can't force hits to be traded. *Able to clear small/medium camp stacks, but mediocre at jungling in general. *Greedy, can't operate as position 6.
Pros: *Primary initiator from a support role. *Strong Level 2-3 gank timing with brown boots. *Good late game with only two cheap items (Tranquils/Blink). *Stampede gives global presence during the recovery split-farm period for blink dagger.
In practice, I've been forced into a support role by team decisions a few times, and it usually works out okay.
In my last match I picked so far one of my most favorite lineups. Cent offlane, viper + venge, puck, axe jungle. If you have a strong solo support then I feel having additional strong initiation is really really good especially if you pick around it. I'am not 100% sure how well cent would jungle but if he can do it decently then it's definitely an option too. I wouldn't put him just as a lane support though. I feel like if you go for a greedy pos 4 then your lineup has to be tempo all around. I don't think it would be advisable to pick a hardcarry into any position with a greedy 4th pos like cent/axe would be. Other junglers like ench/chen/enigma can put pressure on the map easier and earlyer than an axe or centaur can so you want really strong lanes in mid and safelane.
On January 18 2015 03:24 Buckyman wrote: How do y'all feel about support Centaur?
Cons: *Miss level 5-9 solo kill timing window *Late blink dagger *Stampede damage is underwhelming *Melee support in lane *Little counter-push
Mixed *Tanky enough to trade hits with the offlaner, but low engagement range means he can't force hits to be traded. *Able to clear small/medium camp stacks, but mediocre at jungling in general. *Greedy, can't operate as position 6.
Pros: *Primary initiator from a support role. *Strong Level 2-3 gank timing with brown boots. *Good late game with only two cheap items (Tranquils/Blink). *Stampede gives global presence during the recovery split-farm period for blink dagger.
In practice, I've been forced into a support role by team decisions a few times, and it usually works out okay.
Seems to me like you're basically a useless xp sapper unless you have a setup--could be viable when paired with something like a boots-first shadow demon though. Stack jungle camps in between ganks and whatnot and take the safelane after ~10 min or so to catch-up farm your blink as the carry goes to the jungle.
On a completely different note, why isn't Armlet popular on Centaur? He needs both the armor and the regen, and toggling the Armlet seems like an excellent way to survive double edging yourself to 1 HP.
As a side benefit, if my math is correct, the attack speed bonus from Armlet should be just large enough to let Centaur get off three attacks during a level 4 stomp, assuming the stomp's animation is cancelled promptly.
On January 18 2015 07:52 Buckyman wrote: On a completely different note, why isn't Armlet popular on Centaur? He needs both the armor and the regen, and toggling the Armlet seems like an excellent way to survive double edging yourself to 1 HP.
As a side benefit, if my math is correct, the attack speed bonus from Armlet should be just large enough to let Centaur get off three attacks during a level 4 stomp, assuming the stomp's animation is cancelled promptly.
Because:
1) Tranquils costs 550 to upgrade from brown boots. Armlet costs 2400.
2) That armlet could've been a Blink Dagger or Force Staff.
3) Why are you even discussing right clicks on Centaur?
Interesting idea buckyman. I think it could work in a more carrylike centaurbuild but you should go pt's (20% more damage output) aswell and ditch the tranquils. Normally you dont wait an hour at lvl 16 until tranquils heal you up for 400 hp anyway and you already got better armour from the armlet. I have seen rtz carry games on his stream with centaur, he hit like a truck with just simple strengthitems so dont underestimate statitems on centaur. I think it would be fun experimenting with a carrybuild for centaur which works for you, i'd say go for it!
The returnskill also benefits alot from strength lvl 16 without armlet he has 80 strength, resulting in 22 + 40 = 62 returndamage per hit. lvl 16 with armlet he has 105 strength, resulting in 22 + 53 = 77 returndamage per hit.
Rightclickdamage In my opinion centaur does rightclick to kill people a couple of times during the combo (3 maybe 4). as the total damage is not enough for killing most heros. Lategame, centaur can hit really hard because he has insane statgrowth (3.8 or something), therefore pt's should fit him pretty well if you itemise him a little bit as a carry.
lets assume you can get a maximum of 4 hits before/during/after the combo somehow : (179 - 123) * 4 = 66 * 4 = 264 extra damage from armlet, 23% more damage output during a combo, which is nice and certainly costeffective!
General Maybe find or experience with enough regen+stats into high tier items. I allways go urn on centaur because 1 charge is the same amount of HP as a double edge burns away (burstheal, more strength, cheap & manaregen). Urn keep me, a mediocre player, more active during the early/midgame with less downtime. Maybe urn works for you too until you sell it for a HoT during the mid/lategame.
My experimental suggestion would be to go a strengthstat carrybuild: Pt's+blink+urn+armlet--> bkb+HoT --> AC --> into basher/molnjir/skadi/hex/etc (torte de lini wrote somewhere he prefers bkb over pipe in alot of games, also a strengthitem)
When i want to draft a dedicated jungler, i tend to pick 2 good offlaners as the support cant really play babysit when she does most of the supporting alone. I think if you draft a dedicated jungler, a carry centaurbuild could be good and fit wel in a timing of certain herocompositions. Could well be i am totally wrong, but i like experiments and tend to stay positive for a long time about new idea's and suggestions.
On January 18 2015 08:51 WolfintheSheep wrote: 1) Tranquils costs 550 to upgrade from brown boots. Armlet costs 2400.
Simple facts, yes.
2) That armlet could've been a Blink Dagger or Force Staff.
Agreed, and I wouldn't suggest getting an Armlet before you have a Blink or Force Staff.
3) Why are you even discussing right clicks on Centaur?
Because Centaur almost always gets right clicks off on someone after stomping them. 300 extra physical damage during his level 11 combo seems worth talking about. (Also, 50 more from Stampede)
On January 18 2015 10:06 govie wrote:
Rightclickdamage In my opinion centaur does rightclick to kill people a couple of times during the combo (3 maybe 4). as the total damage is not enough for killing most heros. Lategame, centaur can hit really hard because he has insane statgrowth (3.8 or something), therefore pt's should fit him pretty well if you itemise him a little bit as a carry.
lets assume you can get a maximum of 4 hits before/during/after the combo somehow : (179 - 123) * 4 = 66 * 4 = 264 extra damage from armlet, 23% more damage output during a combo, which is nice and certainly costeffective!
I'm getting 289 physical right-click damage and 50 Stampede magical damage at level 11. This includes the attack speed letting him get a third extra right-click off, which would hit before the stun ends with armlet but after the stun lands without it.
General Maybe find or experience with enough regen+stats into high tier items. I allways go urn on centaur because 1 charge is the same amount of HP as a double edge burns away (burstheal, more strength, cheap & manaregen). Urn keep me, a mediocre player, more active during the early/midgame with less downtime. Maybe urn works for you too until you sell it for a HoT during the mid/lategame.
My experimental suggestion would be to go a strengthstat carrybuild: Pt's+blink+urn+armlet--> bkb+HoT --> AC --> into basher/molnjir/skadi/hex/etc (torte de lini wrote somewhere he prefers bkb over pipe in alot of games, also a strengthitem)
I was tentatively considering Tranquil Boots -> Sobi/Basi -> Blink -> Urn/Vlad's and Armlet -> situational (Manta?), eventually ditching the Tranquils.
On January 18 2015 06:54 xxpack09 wrote: Seems to me like you're basically a useless xp sapper unless you have a setup--could be viable when paired with something like a boots-first shadow demon though. Stack jungle camps in between ganks and whatnot and take the safelane after ~10 min or so to catch-up farm your blink as the carry goes to the jungle.
Support Centaur doesn't sap XP. It's basically required to be a double roam hero. You go Boots first + stun and get kills. You stack and catch up after game progresses a bit and you have Tranquils.
On January 18 2015 07:52 Buckyman wrote: On a completely different note, why isn't Armlet popular on Centaur? He needs both the armor and the regen, and toggling the Armlet seems like an excellent way to survive double edging yourself to 1 HP.
As a side benefit, if my math is correct, the attack speed bonus from Armlet should be just large enough to let Centaur get off three attacks during a level 4 stomp, assuming the stomp's animation is cancelled promptly.
Because:
1) Tranquils costs 550 to upgrade from brown boots. Armlet costs 2400.
2) That armlet could've been a Blink Dagger or Force Staff.
3) Why are you even discussing right clicks on Centaur?
Centaur can be an effective lategame right-click hero, it's just that you almost always make the transition LATER if you do so.
The hero's early-game strength is in the burst damage from his spells, which you will typically maximize with items like Blink+BKB or Blink+Hood/Pipe. At the earliest, you'd transition into damage items on your 3rd item, but at that point you start to get strapped for slots.
If you wanted to make the autoattack transition, it would be on major items 3-5 with something like AC+Heart+MKB. Armlet is cost-effective, which makes it strong earlier, but it's relative slot-inefficiency compared to 5k+ gold major items makes it awkward to buy late in the game, which is when you'd even consider the autoattack damage transition on Centaur in the first place. Prior to that, BKB offers far more effective combat power due to Magic Immunity preventing Double Edge self-damage entirely (results in more effective HP gained than Armlet's health increase), and Hood is a better farming item due to almost all your farming power coming off Double Edge spam (and Hood provides more HP regen and, again, reduces Double Edge self-damage).
I feel like you are too big on slot efficiency on that hero. Though I agree that boots->blink->bkb/pipe (if you plan on rightklick damage then it's gonna be bkb) is set in stone as a path. However the efficiency of armlet is so incredibly overwhelming as a right click item that i wouldn't ever skip it on a str based autoattacker. Yes on cent it's gonna be the third big item but only because you go for some right click damage doesn't mean you should now suddenly play passive and farm 3 big items to fill your slots efficiently. As centaur you are constantly supposed to get into peoples faces after your blink. So if you go bkb after blink and plan on rightklicking then the only item I would agree on instead of armlet would be AC if you need the aura.
Support centaur is absolutely horrendous. As a cent, you need farm and xp to do your combo effectively. Your only stun is melee range. Unless you have a lane partner who has a stun, you will just get kited a lot. Support centaur will also tend to be squishy so you cannot use return to its full capability (OP OP OP)
I think its all about getting a good hoofstomp off and less about xp and gold, that means 2300 gold or supporttiny is adviceable, it seems not that effective if you ask me. Elder titan became a support somewhere, although he didnt need a blink to be effective and centaur does. I think brew could well be the next core that becomes a support. Even without a blinkdagger he should be able to kill with smokes around lvl 6 and onwards. Just the vortex (eulsspell) is usefull enough for a supportrole to create 4v5 battles. Put him in a lineup that doesnt care about magic immunity to create a bkb-paradox. But centaur doesnt offer that paradox without 2300 gold,which seems the biggest difference between eldertitan, cw or even brew.
What's the general rule of thumb for Hood/Pipe vs BKB for centaur?
I often find myself unsure of which to go for, the hood is really nice for farming speed and pipe is really useful in pubs to add a lot to centaur's ability to counter-gank or turn fights quickly but sometimes I go for Pipe and feel like I'm just getting blown up in fights anyways.
Like I want BKB when the enemy team has a ton of magic damage, especially stuff that I think will hit me even as the enemies target my mid/safelane cores. But that's also exactly what I want pipe for because I want to be able to keep those cores and supports up.
If the enemy team has some really nasty disables it seems easy to choose. Likewise if they don't have much magic damage at all (hood or cloak for farming then). But when they have high magic damage without disables (say heroes like Phoenix*) I don't really know how to choose.
*I know sunray is pure, but fire spirits + supernova is still a ton of magic dmg.
On January 27 2015 01:18 Logo wrote: Like I want BKB when the enemy team has a ton of magic damage, especially stuff that I think will hit me even as the enemies target my mid/safelane cores. But that's also exactly what I want pipe for because I want to be able to keep those cores and supports up.
But those have varied priority from game-to-game. Sometimes your other cores/supports are more or less self-sufficient, and benefit from you cutting the enemy backline effectively more than you just giving them a magic shield. You sort of have to judge from the game whether it's more effective to make yourself more dangerous (BKB gives you more self-stats and makes you harder to deal with), or whether to buy a team item that gives relatively inefficient self-stats in exchange for some team defense.
Armlet's probably not a 50% item, more like a 10% item. But right now, it's not even considered a 1% item.
Dotabuff Quiz: In pub games, which of the following items is less popular on Centaur than Armlet? (a) Orchid (b) Battlefury (c) Dagon 5 (d) Radiance (e) None of the above
I'm sort of surprised to see veil so low on the list for a hero that deals 700-800 magic damage in a full rotation (stampede, stomp, double edge) and 650 on a short cooldown. I mean I agree it's not what you want to get on him, but you'd at least think people would experiment with it more often than Orchid, Dagon, Necro, Butterfly, Bloodstone or Ring of Aquila (wtf?).
Aquila seems fine as a 1% item. Basilius is situational on everyone, and the slotless stats from the upgrade are pretty cheap. Vlad's is better, but a large commitment for a temporary value slot.
EPT
