EPTI just don't know how a T1 player could play the way Miracle did and not make adjustments until he's already 10 mindless deaths down.
Team Liquid Discussion - Page 346
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juuto
809 Posts
I just don't know how a T1 player could play the way Miracle did and not make adjustments until he's already 10 mindless deaths down. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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maddraks
Bulgaria6 Posts
 I'm missing the 20min stomping Liquid we all love... I'm trying to cheer to the good plays in every game but boy are they few and on the other hand there are so many misplays and miss-coordination that it's unacceptable at TI level. Well deserved LB place. If Chaos wasn't performing so bad, we could have been eliminated already Please cheer me up somehow... | ||
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Toshiru
Germany47 Posts
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Rufus Dupres
Germany1071 Posts
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
1. The drafts have either a weird plan, or hard to execute one. 2. Individual perfomance is down at least 50% From our top players Miracle and MC. 3.The teamwork seems way way off, like we are looking at the first Liquid Roster with Korok and TC 4. Ingame desigions are vary questionable. We were wining a lot of games @ rosh, these days we lost most of them with cocky roshaning infront of the whole enemy team. 5. We have absoluteley no draft that opponents fear. We had that for 3 years. Maybe last banning meepo from time to time but thats not really a draft advantage. And thats probably the most important thing. We used to hit a timing with every draft, and even it if fails because opponent played outstanding we just knew that next game we will be fine. Remember for example the DK, Lone Druid and Bristle strat? Everyone itemized that we just win with 1 push 22 mins. Not to mention if they allowed GH to have KotL. The BM + Lycan? I can remember at least 5 more of those strats that you just got to fear. Now what do we do ? Pick a hero that Miracle has to be flawless on? Our fear when the roster changed just came true - yeah w33 is flashy, yeah he can win you alone the game sometimes, but the whole team dynamic with him look just not Liquid. Kuro wanted the change something, but if the plan was to train for another year, and in that case the pre TI change was useless, Things are just not working, they have 2 days to figure their style in the meta, and to start look like a team again. However after so many mistakes, throws, questionable positioning, weird drafts in those 16 games. I for the first time in more than 3 years see no way of us making it more than top 8. I am even scared that Fnatic will stomp us. Lets hope i am wrong... | ||
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Qualitaetsgarant
124 Posts
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nikkipaniki
6 Posts
On August 18 2019 19:36 NInoff wrote:Remember for example the DK, Lone Druid and Bristle strat? ... The BM + Lycan? Basically, strats with Matu's heroes. And people say W33 is better for the team. Haha! | ||
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juuto
809 Posts
The Matu kick happened only after they got eliminated by Gambit in the first round of the ESL Birmingham lower bracket games. Like what imaginary Liquid are we talking about here? | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
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Rufus Dupres
Germany1071 Posts
On August 19 2019 14:37 Sapaio wrote: I do understand why they did change, Miracle has turned more and more into a farmer so they wanted to move him to safalane, and the meta was more of flashy and spacemaking mids, so it kind of makes sense. I didn't understand why they chose such an unstable player as W33. They looked better at Epicenter, so people didn't have a problem with it then. To be fair, which option were available during that time considering that Miracle does not want to play mid any longer and all other mid players have already been picked up and were preparing for TI qualifiers? Resolut1on? Bryle? Gunnar? W33haa was actually the best and only option. W33haa played much more stable than Miracle did in this tournament. Yes, he was out of position sometimes, but nothing compared to Miracle and his ultra-agressive positioning and not respecting the opponents possibility to catch him out. These moves did cost them at least two games. | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
On August 19 2019 15:54 Rufus Dupres wrote: To be fair, which option were available during that time considering that Miracle does not want to play mid any longer and all other mid players have already been picked up and were preparing for TI qualifiers? Resolut1on? Bryle? Gunnar? W33haa was actually the best and only option. W33haa played much more stable than Miracle did in this tournament. Yes, he was out of position sometimes, but nothing compared to Miracle and his ultra-agressive positioning and not respecting the opponents possibility to catch him out. These moves did cost them at least two games. To be honest i thought that for them to kick Matu, they would have snipped somebody from another team like EG did last year. I find it every fair to point out that Miracle has under preformed big time, but he has been one of the most stable players in old world the last years, so don't think TL could predict that at the time they kicked Matu. If i player is tilted in a game and repeat the same mistake more times doesn't the captain deserve some of the blame for that? | ||
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
There are at least 5 examples with his Ember or Storm plays that require BKB activation when going in against instant disable, but he doesn't press it and just dies. I understand that he wants to bait some spells, or even BKBs then reengage with his own BKB, but Liquid don't draft saves usually, so he can't do that. Those plays that he makes only work during like first 20 mins becaue he can predict every skill and cooldown, later Supports have BKBs, positioning items, more vision etc and the chain disable is just easier. I relly hope these two days to help them find the issue, and survive vs Fnatic, then maybe... maybe... we can dream of something. | ||
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Rufus Dupres
Germany1071 Posts
On August 19 2019 17:12 Sapaio wrote: If i player is tilted in a game and repeat the same mistake more times doesn't the captain deserve some of the blame for that? What should Kuro do in this case except of saying to stay calm? Miracle is experienced enough to learn from such mistakes. Maybe not after the first death, but latest after the second death he should have adjusted his playstyle without having vision. In that TNC-game he was freefarming, had the highest networth but no any defensive item which would allow him to make such plays. He basically relied on that he is quick enough on his fingers to zip out or that his team will bail him out which is not happening when you are drafting no saves like Oracle/Abba/Dazzle. I was quite surprised that Liquid did not pick IO in one of the games against Alliance and/or TNC, in both series the hero was not banned. At least in the first TNC-game, they could have started with IO/Gyro. But I just hope we manage to survive against Fnatic and have another miraculous run in the LB, although I do not feel very confident. | ||
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Julmust
Sweden4867 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
On August 19 2019 20:10 Oukka wrote: Julmust has a good point. The days of drafting for all three cores are long gone it feels. Like some of the best dota Liquid played the last two-three years was when all 3 cores were drafted a hero they could take over the game with. 1 or 2 lanes could be lost but there was always an insurance policy, another hero that could buy the time and space to recover a bit. Now it's all eggs in the Miracle basket time after time. MC has an initiator/frontliner, w33 or Matu got a spacemaker but it feels as if everything if there to enable Miracle. And with all due respect it hasn't felt like a winning formula for a while now. The whole concept of a "Miracle hero" feels dated now, teams can cripple one of our other lanes while preventing miracle from going ballistic and our entire gameplan falls flat. There are some other trends in drafting and strategy as well that feel off as well but this is definitely one. I disagree with this on several point: The Concept works at the moment. OG is winning with it and looks best right now in TI, but that can change. TL didn't really build draft like that. SS was picked 2 or 3 while Drow was the last pick. Edited 4 pick SS with two picks left for TNC and into a LS The way Miracle played SS was more of a space making SS, not a farming one that reaches critical mass before joining team fight. That kind of lost them the game. And was rather strange to see with him moving away from 2 pos to the 1 hard carry. They actually came out ahead of laneing phase ahead, and could easily have won that game. | ||
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Rufus Dupres
Germany1071 Posts
But you have to give credit to TNC and Heen, the Skywrath-pick was the perfect one to stop his agressions. As the casters said, TNC and especially TIMS read him like an open book, they knew exactly what he will be doing. | ||
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
I feel like the ingame leader meta understanding is kind of off. Just a quick example We got crushed with LifeStealer vs Alchemist vs LGD - LS is a hard counter to Alch 30 mins + and especially after lvl 25 and with a Initiater support / offlaner that can be infested.. So all you got to do is play your game, do not force the issue and be way too far behin- Alch will come to you.And even if he doesnt - he will max out @ 30 mins then you can catch up... And what do liquid do next day vs Alliance? Go hunting around like mad man and got teamwiped 3 times in a row so the opponent got 2 easy lanes of rax and was like 30k ahead... So then we lost... There were a lot of games actually where similar things happen. Hell, i am a 3k mmr player and even i know what hero comp is better if evenish lategame... I seriously doubt that our boys dont?! Also i was actually amazed how they couldnt end couple of games for 20 mins after being 30k ahead. That is just not Liquid - usually we at least try and if we get wiped then play the starving game. Lot of weird shit going on during this TI with Liquid that just can't be explained with 1 issue, i would really like to see an interview with Kuro taken during or after the Group stages. | ||
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
Lets Go Liquid! No matter what happened we still believe! | ||
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