EPTMatu needs more time if he's really gonna switch to support but it's really a waste of his talents. Miracle and him are really the same role in game... No easy answers boys, but at least MC's pitlord looked good right?
Team Liquid Discussion - Page 149
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giftdgecko
United States2126 Posts
Matu needs more time if he's really gonna switch to support but it's really a waste of his talents. Miracle and him are really the same role in game... No easy answers boys, but at least MC's pitlord looked good right? | ||
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Nikto
Slovakia410 Posts
nicela  | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
Anyways, Im quite sad at the last result, but kind of happy at the same time because of all the Bulba blame going around, because in my eyes he played solid dota, which is more than I can say about the rest of the squad. Seriously this guy cant catch a break, its sad. Im just not sure if a new player or role swapping will do them any good, when its clear to me the team doesn't work on a fundamental level, perhaps there are trust issues among them, I can imagine they are aware of the high expectations everyone had, but the pressure from the poor results is probably getting to them. | ||
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giftdgecko
United States2126 Posts
On November 03 2016 08:20 FreakyDroid wrote: ... Im just not sure if a new player or role swapping will do them any good, when its clear to me the team doesn't work on a fundamental level, perhaps there are trust issues among them, I can imagine they are aware of the high expectations everyone had, but the pressure from the poor results is probably getting to them. I mean, Kuro lost his co-captains afaik in FATA and Jerax, both of whom were vocal leaders in game. Add in Matu seeming to be totally unsure of how to play with Miracle and you've got the issues. How we fix them ionoman. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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Asjo
Denmark664 Posts
On November 03 2016 09:16 Jaaaaasper wrote: lol they actually went with the scapegoat over fixing the teams problems. The problem with this line up is Miracle and Matu not working well together, Miracle losing 1v1s, MC feeding, and Kuro not being very good at drafting or shot calling, and not having a true 4. If they upgrade 4's, none of the rest of the problems go away. Isn't that a bit presumptuous to say? As far as I have seen, all Liquid players have talked highly of BuLba (particularly about him bringing fresh ideas to the team) and none of them have blamed him for anything. If they did indeed kick him, wouldn't it be fair to assume that perhaps something wasn't working within the team, and perhaps they felt their lack of synergy with him (or lacking a true support) was a significant part of the problem? We don't know their reasons, but it seems a bid odd to just assume that this is not them trying to deal with their problems. | ||
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caiovigg
Brazil1802 Posts
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On November 03 2016 09:39 Asjo wrote: Isn't that a bit presumptuous to say? As far as I have seen, all Liquid players have talked highly of BuLba (particularly about him bringing fresh ideas to the team) and none of them have blamed him for anything. If they did indeed kick him, wouldn't it be fair to assume that perhaps something wasn't working within the team, and perhaps they felt their lack of synergy with him (or lacking a true support) was a significant part of the problem? We don't know their reasons, but it seems a bid odd to just assume that this is not them trying to deal with their problems. Given how Bulba got kicked, but wasn't the biggest problem with their play, its just the truth. | ||
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Asjo
Denmark664 Posts
On November 03 2016 09:53 Jaaaaasper wrote: Given how Bulba got kicked, but wasn't the biggest problem with their play, its just the truth. Just a few months ago, people were touting Miracle and mind_control as some of the best in their respective roles. They didn't just magically get drastically worse. Something within the team wasn't working, and everyone's performance suffered as a result. One of the things people have mentioned is that Miracle plays the same style as he usually does, but doesn't have nearly the same quality of backup for his aggressive moves. Hence my mention of Liquid likely wanting a true support. Right now, there is more pressure on mind_control to be a play-maker, but if the team were to get a four position play who can make plays, he might be able to perform much better (and just do his own thing, as before). As I see it, Liquid's past successes wasn't off the back of mind_control directly, but he was able to come up clutch for the team several times because they worked well together. BuLba did play badly for many of his first matches on the team (understandably, since he's new to support), but admittedly stepped up his performance in the final matches of the qualifier. In many games, he made fewer obvious mistakes than his teammates, so therefore his performance won't stand out as bad. But you have to look at the things he didn't do. Was he in position to save his carry? Did he help initiate? Was he able to play along with the team's sense of momentum, or were there missed opportunities? Did his itemization help them adjust to their opponents? Was his warding on point? Did he make sure to scout out or tank the ganks? It's not a simple thing to say | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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Asjo
Denmark664 Posts
On November 03 2016 10:37 Jaaaaasper wrote: Its simple to say that Miracle didn't adapt his play to Kuro the captain having them run tri lanes with Matu most of the time. Thats on Kuro not Bulba. Miracle losing 1v1s was a huge problem. For that matter Fata's being able to handle mid 1v1's let the supports help MC and Matu with out having to worry about mid lane. The players didn't match Kuro's play style, and it went poorly for them. Kuro was playing the 4 ish, badly, while Bulba looked pretty good at 5. Bulba looked pretty good at 4 when Matu got switched to 5. The the problem is the play style doesn't match the players, and Miracle isn't a good fit for how the team plays. Obviously, the players are likely to play to their strengths. So, likely, Miracle isn't a good fit to a team without good supports, because one of his greatest strengths is finding good offensive momentum and riding it. You could say that they should change their play-style, but it's likely that they did so already to accommodate their roster changes. Miracle obviously prefers different heroes than FATA did. They might have felt that BuLba didn't go a good enough job providing vision or often wasn't on the same page as the rest of the team, causing the team to lack coordination and spend more energy on communication. As I have listed above, there could be many aspects of his play that Liquid found missing. So, I'd still say that it's hardly a fact that Liquid are using BuLba as a scapegoat. If they did kick him, it could be a sound decision based on what was going on in the team, and perhaps it's exactly what they need. We will see. | ||
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danielbe
Colombia24 Posts
What is a Miracle hero nowadays ? Can't we just accept that the guy is on a slump ? Probably lost motivation after reaching the top of competitive Dota or something. Not even Fly and Cr1t's clutch plays would save his laning stage nowadays, he's just playing badly. After Mind_Control, who's making some really shady decisions, Miracle has been the weakest link in game. And yeah, Jerax is just a beast, there's no replacing that guy. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On November 03 2016 15:54 danielbe wrote: Everyone is so high up on Miracle, without seeing that he lost most of his matchups mid. Regardless of the hero. Invoker ? Loss. TA ? Loss. Jugg ? Loss (the same Jugg mid that one OG that ESL tournament and the major afterwards, that Jugg). Puck ? Loss. What is a Miracle hero nowadays ? Can't we just accept that the guy is on a slump ? Probably lost motivation after reaching the top of competitive Dota or something. Not even Fly and Cr1t's clutch plays would save his laning stage nowadays, he's just playing badly. After Mind_Control, who's making some really shady decisions, Miracle has been the weakest link in game. And yeah, Jerax is just a beast, there's no replacing that guy. Some players tilt harder than others when their team has internal problems. Don't forget that Miracle is still just a kid with only one year of competitive experience on only one team, he isn't used to dealing with these issues. Mind_Control is more or less the same, maybe a little more experienced. Taking that into account, it isn't really a surprise that they would be the worst performers when the leadership and communication fails and when there's no mutual trust. | ||
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
Liquid vs Ad Finem10h 47m Elimination Mode Liquid vs Escape10h 47m Hopefully they can reschedule. Forfeiting the game vs Escape is not a good option. | ||
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Dysisa
Sweden2376 Posts
Of course, like pretty much everything else written in here, that's just pure speculation. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On November 03 2016 05:45 NInoff wrote: After watching that OG game i realised that the only reason we were so good was Jerax. The guy is irreplaceable. We were joking that Nazgul should offer him millions so he would stay, but that didn't happen... Oh you were joking back then :D Because I sure wasn't and I'm pretty sure those are the exact word I used. Liquid is a vast organisation spanning multiple games, continents, some say even universes and even own the best site in the greatest game on earth - Poker, the huge LiquidPoker. A few millions is nothing to the organisation and Naz could probably just jump back to the poker tables and make a couple millions in minutes anyways. Sadly, Jerax didn't bite, he plays for glory and although Bulba was indeed the best player easily last couple months on the team, he is no Jerax with his strong play and in-game presence. But there is only one Jerax sadly. | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
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Aldehyde
Sweden939 Posts
On November 03 2016 07:52 Shaella wrote: You clearly don't understand me on a deep spiritual level Haha, no, I guess I haven't had the privilege to get to know you like that. Yet. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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