EPTTeam Secret Discussion - Page 30
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
On February 09 2015 00:17 DucK- wrote: Anyone felt that KKY was pretty off today? Not his best games. Then again the drafts wasn't that good by puppey too. off day by everyone i say, except maybe Zai s4 in particular has been quite terrible in the last few days, but im sure he will be back to his former self  | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
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Geisterkarle
Germany3257 Posts
On February 08 2015 23:37 goody153 wrote: https://twitter.com/Arteezy/status/564432398876962817 AHAHAHAHAHAHA Well now I know why they lost! They got the EE-curse!  Good run though! | ||
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Vankuga
Panama2005 Posts
Zai showed a lot of potential which leaves me with optimism about him :D. And i guess Arteezy is a big deal in China: http://instagram.com/p/y2ArGQEdKg/ | ||
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Invoker
Belgium686 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
On February 09 2015 02:57 Invoker wrote: If they didn't keep using the same heroes in group stages and finished something like 13-2, they would be in the final now. it was the same for all teams. They all picked lion/axe/sf/jugg/etcetc | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On February 09 2015 03:50 govie wrote: it was the same for all teams. They all picked lion/axe/sf/jugg/etcetc Difference was that the other teams had playoff strats. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
I do think S4's poor performances have been vastly overstated though. He did excellent work most of the tournament. But narratives have a way of taking on a life of their own. | ||
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
On February 09 2015 08:21 rabidch wrote: if rtz can't learn to play more than a few heroes it doesnt bode well for this team. also s4 not feeding helps too Puppey himself said they only had a few strats prepared for this tournament due to the lack of play time together. Obviously Arteezy can play more then shadow fiend/lycan/tiny but they most likely only had time to practice those particular heroes. I expect him to play many more next tournament they enter. | ||
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goody153
44238 Posts
The way secret playstyle looks like was they have a lineup that win lanes and that can easily punish enemy mistakes that they can snowball from easily or at least come out even. And pretty fucking sure s4 was still fulfilling the same solo mid role except they are securing s4 farm more from the safelane(or sometimes a easier contested lane) which should make it easier for him to fulfill his space creating role with the early farm he has. Arteezy was left mid cause he has heroes he can hold on his own whether he was behind or even since he can jungle from behind or he has heroes that can hold the lane against strong laners. There is no role switch from the games. Arteezy just laned mid and s4 laned on the safelane but they were doing the same fucking thing from what they are supposed to do. The laning just benefits secret more since they can afford to let their carry be in a more dangerous lane and their space creator will almost always have a good start that way. And secret drafting style prioritized heroes that can most likely allow arteezy hold the midlane or snowball from it. They were more flexible towards their support and mid choices. It's opposite on how newbee/C9 drafted before DAC where they usually last pick the carry. It wasn't an issue of heropool it was that EG outdrafted them 2 games since secret was probably pretty confident with the same playstyle. Obviously there are times that confidence in one playstyle pays off like alliance from TI3 and there are times it doesn't work out all the time like VG from TI4 (where newbee completely crushed them grand finals). | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
If you want to mix your drafts up more then PA (84% winrate), OD (65% winrate), terrorblade (60% winrate) & tinker (81% winrate) were all available and rtz has had multiple games on all these hero's. I especially think OD is overlooked for rtz as he plays it almost perfect or atleast one of the best OD's in the scene. They could have made a signature OD secret pocketstrat/herocombo. Just like c9 did with lich frostarmour++beastmaster boar, c9 had alot of nice outcomes with that combo. That was so smart against certain lineups and because of that I am even playing lich again in pubs just because I saw the frostarmourpotential and I havent lost yet I hope puppey will search datdota for rtz's statistics next time so they know what to draft for him next tournament. I did expect a little more from a puppey draft/captain, a bit disappointed actually. | ||
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goody153
44238 Posts
Tinker vs Medusa never works out well for medusa. It wasn't rtz who is a terrible medusa.. It's basically medusa doesn't win the lane against tinker much more the game. Not to mention secret has shit tools to deal with tinker. Even if medusa farms rapier tinker is gonna shit on the hero. That was a just a perfect tinker game it got nothing to do with rtz medusa. And the sniper game they can't do shit against panda brew split. It was a hard sniper game to begin. The sniper cannot absolutely get in range since there is a lion and panda. Forcing sniper to buy bkb which also hinders his progression. And secret didn't have good heroes to stop the enemy from sniping sniper outside axe. 2 games secret was outdrafted. Game 1 seems like puppey got baited into the medusa pick which they were having a difficult time against. Doesn't mean they can't win but they had small timing windows which they can win but EG was already winning before that point. Long story short they lost the draft. They got outplayed by EG. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
Call it what you want, but it's not too hard to draft around someone who relies on the same picks every single game. | ||
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ocb05
Malaysia2 Posts
Yes they have lost in terms of drafting and counterpicking, however, that game can be reversed in Secret's favour by using one item: BKB. Axe thrives on enemies having multiple images and minions, so broodmother was pretty much countered. But the real threat is Witch Doctor and Skymage. Tinker has the March and Heatsinking Missiles, so basically, blink daggers are pretty much useless already. To reverse this match: Broodmother = BKB Medusa = Linken / Skadi + BKB ES = Forcestaff instead of blink, even BKB in that game is better than blink dagger. VS = Tranquil, drum and Vanguard if possible. Puck = Needs BKB instead of dagger. He was shut down pretty hard that game due to axe item build: Eul scepter. On the other hand, EG has the better item build responding Secret's lineup. Tinker: pretty much the same Axe: That eul scepter was really brilliant. BKB adds icing to the cake. Witch Doctor: That Death ward placement is just awesome. Skymage: Meh that bombardment on Axe's Call is no-brainer Wolf: He did his job as per usual. By using BKB: Broodmother can practically bite off WD and skymage while stone gaze is active. Medusa will be dishing a lot of auto attack damage only affected by Axe call. No other spell could do shit on her. Skipping dagger, ES can just walk into the battlefield and slam them by activating BKB. Linken would be another nice item. Puck can unleash its combo much more smoothly without difficulties if it is having BKB or Linken. Conclusion: Manta and broodlings as horrible against axe. Broodmother should always ditch his minions when chasing down WD and Skymage because Axe can easily call the minions and increase its chance to helix the hell out of Secret. Medusa just need to kite Axe, main objective is to shut down WD and Sky, tinker comes later. Puck can easily deal with Tinker if Puck can obtain BKB. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
Arteezy had a BKB. It was worthless because he had no damage. Zai couldn't do much with a BKB because he couldn't find PPD and Aui in any place to kill them. And if Universe was there, he'd just be Blink Called and then Death Warded. Everyone else had no farm. There's a lot more that's wrong with your post, like saying that shutting down Skywrath and WD would win the fight for Secret, that a BKB Puck can deal with Tinker, that walking into a fight with Earthshaker to Echo Slam works well. You also seem to think that BKB stops Death Ward - it doesn't. | ||
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
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ocb05
Malaysia2 Posts
Okay, i believe you have watch the whole game, here's my argument: Medusa had the BKB, but it was too late. Arteezy shouldn't get manta as first item. Manta in normal situation is good for medusa, but against axe, WD and Skymage, it is not. You said BKB medusa no damage, i beg to differ. That game is about dragging the battle to post-Axe-call by utilising stone gaze, while puck's coil limit their movement while nuking them and letting brood to chip the support down. If executed perfectly, Secret's team lineup is much more effective than EG's lineup, one major catch, EG has better disables. Hence the introduction of BKB. Zai was farming well, got a necrobook and AC! Necro spawns 2 units which complements his already robust minions, which is good for normal situations. However, this spells disaster for Axe. By not building Necrobook and building a BKB as first item, he will be very effective against WD and Skymage. Even Zai got blink called when in BKB mode, WD and Skymage cant do shit against him. What broodmother should do is, bypassing Axe, buying BKB and orchid, specifically for EG supports. No offense, but i think both team skill level wise are good, so Axe cannot possible blink call all of Secret team at once. You might be right about Kuroky cannot afford a BKB, but his blink dagger is worthless as you can see. Constantly deactivated, and causes KKY to miss the best timing to echoslam. And one thing i noticed, VS and ES is focusing on top, instead of helping Medusa, so bascially Tinker is leading on medusa too much, became too fat and nobody likes a fattened tinker in mid game. | ||
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