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On November 23 2015 13:07 Coolsnow7 wrote:
Came in, saw a 40 post inane conversation trying to deteemine who's the "best" team in the world without defining "best", decided it's time to go. Bye. That's the problem, we are trying to find the definition. Some are saying results from past 3 months some are saying results only from the Major since it's the biggest. The biggest problem here is the lack of data over an extended period of time.
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On November 23 2015 13:18 We Are Here wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2015 13:07 Coolsnow7 wrote:
Came in, saw a 40 post inane conversation trying to deteemine who's the "best" team in the world without defining "best", decided it's time to go. Bye. That's the problem, we are trying to find the definition. Some are saying results from past 3 months some are saying results only from the Major since it's the biggest. The biggest problem here is the lack of data over an extended period of time.
That is true. But if we were to use his tennis analogy to rank teams currently, secret would easily be top. Even if you give high weight for Frankfurt major (makes sense), secret finished 2nd in it. That itself should be a major credit as well. Add their 2, 1, 1 placing, its a no brainer that in the period since TI, secret is the top performing team.
Now faith further tournaments should og do well, then they can easily overtake secret.
Wolf guy tried to use the tennis analogy to support his argument, but it is easy to see why that argument actually doesn't support him at all.
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On November 23 2015 13:07 Coolsnow7 wrote:
Came in, saw a 40 post inane conversation trying to deteemine who's the "best" team in the world without defining "best", decided it's time to go. Bye.
yeah unfortunately the secret thread is the worst among the team discussions. i barely read here, in fact i dont have plan to Secret discussion anymore.
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So about the offlane, Misery has done better than i thought he would, but it stills looks feels like his performance on winner bracket/grand finals was lackluster. Pretty sure Secret won't be making any changes now, but if Zai comes back before TI6 i still feel Secret will try to poach him back.
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On November 23 2015 21:48 thiagoop wrote:
So about the offlane, Misery has done better than i thought he would, but it stills looks feels like his performance on winner bracket/grand finals was lackluster. Pretty sure Secret won't be making any changes now, but if Zai comes back before TI6 i still feel Secret will try to poach him back.
I think offlane is the most on/off of all the lanes. Doesn't matter the player, you're going to look awful sometimes and amazing at others. In a losing series, the offlaner is the player most likely to look terrible and useless regardless of actual performance levels. It's the lane that varies the most in difficulty, and the role that varies the most in terms of what is expected from you. Misery is good but not (as of yet) exceptional. If Zai were to want to return I could maybe see Secret taking him back, but I don't think it's likely - he'd be rusty, apart from anything else. Outside of personal or motivational problems, I don't think Secret will want to swap anyone until at least TI.
+ Show Spoiler +Exception to variable results in the offlane is Universe who's a god.
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Puppey and Misery seem to be doing drafting/post game analysis after every single game while the other guys went out to chill... This team seems to work so well because of chemistry (quite the opposite to to the old Secret) I really don't want them to break it and Misery seems to play a large role in it. Only time will tell, when the inevitable downswing comes when they get unlucky in a few events if they can manage to keep working+stay positive there's no reason to touch Misery
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Finals wins over EG (MLG worlds) and Vici (Nanyang)
Finals losses to Vega (ESL NY) and OG (Frankfurt Major), and in both of those matches it was not the finals matchup most expected. Instead people thought IG would progress ahead of Vega, and that EG would progress ahead of OG.
It's hard to study every possible opponent in depth. The burden of favouritism means everyone studies how to beat Secret, but many fewer study how to beat Vega / OG.
Still, what are you gonna do. Skip / flunk other tournaments pre-majors? Throw the winners bracket finals?
Will be really interesting to see how things develop especially after new patch.
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On November 23 2015 21:48 thiagoop wrote:
So about the offlane, Misery has done better than i thought he would, but it stills looks feels like his performance on winner bracket/grand finals was lackluster. Pretty sure Secret won't be making any changes now, but if Zai comes back before TI6 i still feel Secret will try to poach him back.
Magnus games aside, I think Misery seems fine in the offlane. I don't think he's played the role all that much, I'm sure that given time he'll only become better.
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What's interesting is that way over half of games played on Magnus are labelled failures. Seriously, find a high level Magnus game where people don't trash on the player for at least a couple of their moves. It's just a really hard hero to look great on against top teams. The days of five man RPs died as the best players learned proper positioning, and when players look for the big plays on a hero that's hard to execute they're going to fuck up as often as not.
So long as Magnus gets some levels into Empower, he's not doing that badly. Basically, I don't think Misery's Magnus was all that bad, unless you want to say everyone sucks on the hero.
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Thank god, the results show that they are doing very well but could still improve a little bit, so I'm happy to see them sticking together. In fact, I'd be surprised if any of the OG/Secret/EG make any lineup changes.
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On November 24 2015 00:11 FuzzyJAM wrote:
What's interesting is that way over half of games played on Magnus are labelled failures. Seriously, find a high level Magnus game where people don't trash on the player for at least a couple of their moves. It's just a really hard hero to look great on against top teams. The days of five man RPs died as the best players learned proper positioning, and when players look for the big plays on a hero that's hard to execute they're going to fuck up as often as not.
So long as Magnus gets some levels into Empower, he's not doing that badly. Basically, I don't think Misery's Magnus was all that bad, unless you want to say everyone sucks on the hero.
You're absolutely right, it's kinda like with Enigma or similar heroes. When the ulti is so flashy, it's very easy to spot mistakes, and people tend to remember mistakes better than things that go right. That said, I remember some stats showing that he has the third lowest heroes hit per RP of any pro. While stats aren't everything, I think that still says something. But yes, I'm well aware he was picked for empower more so than for his ulti, and I don't think Misery is actually awful on Magnus or anything. I would say it's probably one of his weaker heroes though, which you might be more willing to agree on?
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Predictable that they would stay together; no reason to change roster when they're having this much success
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On November 24 2015 00:31 Dysisa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 00:11 FuzzyJAM wrote:
What's interesting is that way over half of games played on Magnus are labelled failures. Seriously, find a high level Magnus game where people don't trash on the player for at least a couple of their moves. It's just a really hard hero to look great on against top teams. The days of five man RPs died as the best players learned proper positioning, and when players look for the big plays on a hero that's hard to execute they're going to fuck up as often as not.
So long as Magnus gets some levels into Empower, he's not doing that badly. Basically, I don't think Misery's Magnus was all that bad, unless you want to say everyone sucks on the hero. You're absolutely right, it's kinda like with Enigma or similar heroes. When the ulti is so flashy, it's very easy to spot mistakes, and people tend to remember mistakes better than things that go right. That said, I remember some stats showing that he has the third lowest heroes hit per RP of any pro. While stats aren't everything, I think that still says something. But yes, I'm well aware he was picked for empower more so than for his ulti, and I don't think Misery is actually awful on Magnus or anything. I would say it's probably one of his weaker heroes though, which you might be more willing to agree on?
Yeah, I wouldn't mind Misery practising his Magnus a little, that's for sure. 
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Great to hear that they're staying together. I think this team is much about chemistry and the players getting along pretty well, which is at least as important as high skill levels.
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On November 24 2015 00:31 Dysisa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 00:11 FuzzyJAM wrote:
What's interesting is that way over half of games played on Magnus are labelled failures. Seriously, find a high level Magnus game where people don't trash on the player for at least a couple of their moves. It's just a really hard hero to look great on against top teams. The days of five man RPs died as the best players learned proper positioning, and when players look for the big plays on a hero that's hard to execute they're going to fuck up as often as not.
So long as Magnus gets some levels into Empower, he's not doing that badly. Basically, I don't think Misery's Magnus was all that bad, unless you want to say everyone sucks on the hero. You're absolutely right, it's kinda like with Enigma or similar heroes. When the ulti is so flashy, it's very easy to spot mistakes, and people tend to remember mistakes better than things that go right. That said, I remember some stats showing that he has the third lowest heroes hit per RP of any pro. While stats aren't everything, I think that still says something. But yes, I'm well aware he was picked for empower more so than for his ulti, and I don't think Misery is actually awful on Magnus or anything. I would say it's probably one of his weaker heroes though, which you might be more willing to agree on?
You could say that I guess. Unless I'm mistaken Misery has played 5 games on Mag (1 is not on datdota., it was against VP in WCA quals), they are 4-1 with in total. I seem to remember quite a few RP fails he has had that led to missed kills. But every time they have picked it for Misery it has mainly been a lategame strat with Ember / AM, and they have eventually won in all other games except that EG one. Sometimes you don't have to play that great of an individual game but just stay calm, play with your team and rely on your strategy.
In general I don't know if I would say Misery has some incredibly good or bad heroes. In the first Secret games I remember he had a couple of pretty bad Clockwerk games but after that he has had also several good ones. He has also played fine on Slardar, Brood, DS, Tusk, Nyx, Doom for example. In general I would say that he is a reliable player when he gets a good start on one of his initiating heroes, he often knows what moves to make. But maybe he can sometimes be a bit lost if he can't farm the lane and he has to figure out what to do to not fall too far behind. I think in general that is the most peculiar thing about the offlane position, the games vary from you starting in a safelane 1v1 farming away to you being completely sacrificed and staying lvl 2 with your Slardar or Magnus or whatever. And of course it's not only up to him to figure out what to do when he can't get anything off the lane. I remember that Chen game against LGD Misery was lvl 2 and just staying off the map when Puppey smoked with him, they wrapped around enemy mid tower and got those 5 kills or whatever.
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Misery has been getting better every tournament. I'll be shocked if his Magnus hasn't improved by the next one.
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gonna leave this here cuz it's pretty relevant based on the misery/draft flame
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good guy envy taking the flames for his team
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Between Envy and Puppey's aura, I don't think Misery has anything to worry about.
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EPT
