EPTOr they could just start drafting and playing with the mindset "let's finish it in 15min" again.
Na`Vi Discussion - Page 5
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smr
Germany4808 Posts
Or they could just start drafting and playing with the mindset "let's finish it in 15min" again. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
Na'Vi dominated Dota 2 for half of this year. They won a big tournament just last month. Where does the idea come from that they're underperforming any more than in past years? When they play well they look completely unrivalled in the EU scene. And we haven't seen the big pre-TI tournaments yet. Let's see what happens in The Summit etc. Also, Na'Vi don't get much out of scrimming. If you've ever been in a situation where you're slightly better than most of your competition you'll know that playing against them does not feel so great. You are not fully motivated to do your best, and in the end you can end up helping the other teams more than your own. Puppey's made some comment about a few days of practice being enough for them. They're in good form from playing lots of solo MM and dealing with all sorts of retarded shit, and I don't think they have 'social' issues. They all function well together, they just need to get into the flow and maybe try out a few new hero combinations. Obviously you can't take it for granted that they'll go far in TI4, but there's no good reason to believe they won't. They actually performed fine this year. In their losses it was mostly pretty obvious that these were down to the players being a little out of sync or getting flat out outdrafted. In terms of individual skill and experience they're still one of the very best teams, and they've demonstrated that they can iron out their difficulties many times in the past. | ||
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On June 01 2014 00:55 bardtown wrote: Few things: Na'Vi dominated Dota 2 for half of this year. Don't think so. They dominated Alliance, Fnatic and Cloud 9 in finals, but that's it. Where does the idea come from that they're underperforming any more than in past years? They got kicked out of Dreamhack & Champion's League by tier 2 teams. Let's see what happens in The Summit etc. DK, VG and EG take top3, that's what happens. There's no good reason to believe they won't. Dendi, PPY and XBOCT started severely underperforming right after SL8 victory. and they've demonstrated that they can iron out their difficulties many times in the past. There wasn't that kind of difficulty when you don't even get into top4 at Starladder in the past though. | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
They looked terrible before ti2 and mediocre at day 1 and still made finals. That alone gives N'avi the irregularity for me that they can just pull out their skills out of the rabbits ass whenever the international comes up | ||
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On June 01 2014 03:26 Iplaythings wrote: They looked terrible before ti2 No, they didn't. They only lost two finals to mtw. That alone gives N'avi the irregularity for me that they can just pull out their skills out of the rabbits ass whenever the international comes up That won't be a rational assesment. NaVi were like fish in a water with TI2 meta, at TI3 West had a meta advantage over East in general, but here comes the meta that favors Asian players at most and people have all the rights in the world to question NaVi's decision to forgot Dota entirely and start anew in a last month possible. | ||
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HellhoundXVI
United States27 Posts
On June 01 2014 03:32 ForTehDarkseid wrote: No, they didn't. They only lost two finals to mtw. and mTw did not even make top 12 that year. I remember people were saying zenith, ig, and navi top 3, and never put tongfu/EHOME into top 8. Zenith got 5/6. And we all know how good navi was in Day 1 of the group stage (2-4). When people refer to navi slump before TI2, they mostly refer to Day 1 of group stage. That alone gives N'avi the irregularity for me that they can just pull out their skills out of the rabbits ass whenever the international comes up That won't be a rational assesment. NaVi were like fish in a water with TI2 meta, at TI3 West had a meta advantage over East in general, but here comes the meta that favors Asian players at most and people have all the rights in the world to question NaVi's decision to forgot Dota entirely and start anew in a last month possible. Navi was horribly behind in the meta during TI2. Dendi failed with invoker, XBOCT failed with morph. So, what did navi do? Ban both. Lycan was permabanned and teams suffered against navi when puppey played it. XBOCT played a good AM, and navi was over-reliant on dendi rubick. The secret behind navi TI2 success was on the back of brilliant naga bait by puppey. Why do you think "The Play" was called the play? I will not disagree with you that the East had a meta disadvantage during TI3, but it was self-inflicted. This time, the real scary team is DK. This is a team that can play 10 strats in 10 different games and execute them crisply. DK is like the perfect opponent for even the Perfect Navi. For the other teams, newbee only seems good because they beat DK a few times. Newbee, like xiao8's LGD, will get figured out. IG gave a pretty good demonstration. However, the difference is if IG gets its form back, they will become a championship contender. The other teams are good, but not championship material. On the western side, [A] is slowly getting its form back, but still not champion-level. EG is really good, but is not even close to DK. Navi is on a big slump. So, its truly DK thats ahead on meta, not the whole eastern scene. Does this mean that I justify navi's performance? No. But, it is too early to predict navi's standing at TI. I expect navi to do horribly in the summit. I would be genuinely surprised if navi gets better than 3rd place. The real test will be ESL. Even if they do less than good in ESL, it would still be foolish to count navi out. In TI2, they won 3 Bo3s against top 3 CH teams who had a combined loss of 4 games in the group stages. In TI3, with some luck and skill, they almost broke the invincible [A]. If you wish to count this team out, do so at your own peril. | ||
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Nagamundo
131 Posts
Does that mean Na'Vi cannot surprise everyone and make the finals? No, of course they can. But the point is, things are looking pretty grim for them. | ||
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
Things will happen in that time span before TI4. | ||
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Bigtony
United States1606 Posts
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Churrass
573 Posts
On May 31 2014 06:38 weiliem wrote: I find your comment even funnier. like seriously LOL! I dont wanna get into whether the pudge chen bug abuse was a legit strat as it will just lead to a long drag on argument. But to say that Navi should beat tongfu in a rematch because they beat orange? And because they almost won a rematch against Alliance? Wtf? Dota is not maths, A>B and B>C does not mean A>C. And at that level, any team can beat each other. In TI3, To say that because u think Navi could've beaten tongfu in a rematch thats why they deserve to advance is even more ridiculous, like wtf? How sure are u about that? U can't even be sure that they'll beat tongfu. And tongfu was obviously the better performer in TI3 up til the finals. Their performance in the finals was superb. You are very funny bro.... and your lack of interpretation is even worse, read again and you may understand something | ||
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On June 01 2014 05:23 HellhoundXVI wrote: Navi was horribly behind in the meta during TI2. Dendi failed with invoker, XBOCT failed with morph. Meta =/= two heroes, mind you. When you say Dendi FAILED with Invoker, you probably mean NaVi's game against Orange that doesn't tell us the whole story. For the other teams, newbee only seems good because they beat DK a few times. Last I checked, 6-0 doesn't really count as "а few times" Newbee, like xiao8's LGD, will get figured out. IG gave a pretty good demonstration. Except they were playing with standin and still decimated every team at WPC except for iG. So, its truly DK thats ahead on meta, not the whole eastern scene. Western teams can't beat DK, Chinese teams can => Only DK are ahead in meta? It's slighlty offtopic, but that's kind of logic is extremely weak. Even if they do less than good in ESL, it would still be foolish to count navi out. If one doesn't make into top3 at ESL, he won't be able to make it into Grand Finals for TI4. It's not about counting NaVI out, it's about not counting their opponents out. | ||
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
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IcED Bk
Canada245 Posts
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HellhoundXVI
United States27 Posts
On June 01 2014 16:25 ForTehDarkseid wrote: 1. Meta =/= two heroes, mind you. When you say Dendi FAILED with Invoker, you probably mean NaVi's game against Orange that doesn't tell us the whole story. 2. Last I checked, 6-0 doesn't really count as "а few times" 3. Except they were playing with standin and still decimated every team at WPC except for iG. 4. Western teams can't beat DK, Chinese teams can => Only DK are ahead in meta? It's slighlty offtopic, but that's kind of logic is extremely weak. 5. If one doesn't make into top3 at ESL, he won't be able to make it into Grand Finals for TI4. It's not about counting NaVI out, it's about not counting their opponents out. I am inexperienced with TL/LD, so please bear with me. 1. Yes Meta =/= 2 heroes. Other heroes were lycan (permabanned), naga (permabanned), antimage, and may be veno. So, you suck with 2 of the 5 best meta heroes in TI2 meta, which was not as diverse as the current meta. So, you are forced to waste 2 out of 3 bans on those. That gives a very few options ban/pick-wise. If you remember TI3, the eastern teams were behind because they had to permaban wisp. The situations are analogous. In the Orange series, Dendi qop lost against YMH invoker, and then dendi's invoker lost against mushi's qop. I dont think puppey ever picked invoker after that (not against competent teams anyway). 2. And, how many of those were in knock-out stage of a big tournament? Answer : none 3. And, IG decimated them, by banning enchantress followed by outplay. The saving grace was the stand in factor. But, IG is supposed to be a struggling team. And, it kind of gets canceled out. 4. See 2. And please, do not bring Alliance series. That game 2 was really bad play from [A]. 5. Nobody is counting Navi's opponents out. As I said earlier, Navi took 3 bo3s against DK, LGD, and IG who had a combined loss of 4 games in the group stages ( 2 against each other) despite a 2-6 record at one point of the group stage. Navi did it by using a key weakness of strat by the chinese teams then, and they almost took a bo5 by using a similar weakness in [A] strat. The best way to nullify this strength of navi is by playing a different strat every game and winning it. DK is the team that demonstrated this diversity the best. The others...not as much. I am not underestimating the eastern scene. But, I think you are refusing to acknowledge navi's capability when it comes to TI. Granted, a lot of predictions hinge on ESL performance, but Navi has proved in the past many many times that they can grow during a tournament. Discount that factor, and it shall be thy downfall. | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
newbee/dk are sick as hell though (DK is most like navi in flexibility imo, while newbee is just on fire period). One thing is for sure: this is going to be the best TI and probably the best dota tournament ever. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
Na'vi fighting! | ||
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Gevna
France2332 Posts
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
On June 02 2014 04:51 HellhoundXVI wrote: 2. And, how many of those were in knock-out stage of a big tournament? Answer : none honestly that's kinda dumb because 1) there are few big tournaments and 2) there are few knockout games so if you're gonna go with that exclusion like 95% of games don't count. for what it's worth, newbee 2-0'd DK in RO4 of MarsTV and have won their last 7 games against DK, with a lifetime 8-2 record. that's nothing to sneeze at. i don't think any other eastern team is that dominant against DK, let alone western teams. On June 02 2014 04:51 HellhoundXVI wrote: 3. And, IG decimated them, by banning enchantress followed by outplay. The saving grace was the stand in factor. But, IG is supposed to be a struggling team. And, it kind of gets canceled out. and iG, your so-called struggling team, wiped DK's face in the finals 4-1 in pretty dominating fashion. sure DK is supposed to be struggling and all, but they're still a good team who wiped SL9 undefeated. iG are looking much better in their last few games, and within the eastern scene the teams are mostly very close to each other. i don't want to get into some big fight in a team discussion thread, just wanted to clear a few things. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4558 Posts
I've bet against them 3 times, now that they still have decent odds. If they continue slumping, I get rares. If they suddenly start playing well again, the fanboy in me is happy. win-win ^^ | ||
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