• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:13
CEST 00:13
KST 07:13
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202547RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 531 users

A reflection from a Chinese community contributor - Page 3

Forum Index > Dota 2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Micro_Jackson
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany2002 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-27 15:13:59
November 27 2018 15:13 GMT
#41
On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident?


In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular.
hunter_x
Profile Joined June 2014
Germany2762 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-27 15:54:45
November 27 2018 15:53 GMT
#42
On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident?


In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular.

Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. It's just like my pubs. the biggest flamers can't take flame against themselves at all. Not wanting to be rude, but that's the reason why I don't care about anything this Raphael dude has to say at all. This is going on for way to long already, and I am sick of it. The skem and kuku bans are the icing on the cake...
TRAP[yoo]
Profile Joined December 2009
Hungary6026 Posts
November 27 2018 16:12 GMT
#43
On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:
On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident?


In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular.

Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it.

Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general.

the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up
FTD
Micro_Jackson
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany2002 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-27 16:32:53
November 27 2018 16:29 GMT
#44
I dont know if this is already known but TNC posted a statement today including the punishment from their side:

http://dota2.tncproteam.com/2018/11/27/official-statement-disciplinary-action-by-tnc/?fbclid=IwAR2DvKT5nmSl7GQMlGpzkl9_9mTizUqZCr03ua4zX-7JozjC3xBDAV0rE9M

– We will be fining Carlo “Kuku” Palad 50% of his winnings from the Kuala Lumpur Major, and either of the following:

If the team directly qualifies to the Major, 50% of his winnings from the Chongqing Major.
If the team qualifies for the Minor, 50% of his winnings from the Bucharest Minor.
If the team qualifies for the Major through winning the Minor, 50% of his winnings from either the Minor or the Major (whichever is bigger).
If the team does not qualify for the Chongqing Major, Kuku will stream/cover the LAN Finals of the said Major, and all earnings from the stream will be donated to IMADR.
-The amount will be donated to https://imadr.org – The International Movement Against All Forms of Discrimination and Racism (IMADR)

– 50% of Paulo Sy’s one month’s salary shall be donated to IMADR as well.


TNC won 60K at KL Major, and will make a minimum of 10K at Chongqing. Thats not a insignificant amount of money.
Also there is what seems to be an apoplgy and an ask for a second chance on his twitter (its mostly in filipino i am just guessing).

So is this enough punishment?
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
November 27 2018 16:32 GMT
#45
I don’t think any of that will matter to China. Kuku’s fate in this really is dependent upon whatever action Valve takes.
Wineandbread
Profile Joined September 2009
United States2065 Posts
November 27 2018 16:32 GMT
#46
Thanks for your detailed post and your responses, very interesting to read.

Now that TNC qualified in the 2nd slot it seems that we're on the warpath leading to inevitable conflict. If Valve were going to dish out punishment for him it's too late now, it would completely shatter the competitive integrity Valve is trying to build.

You proposed different punishments for kuku/skem which I found odd because realistically there's not much of a difference in their specific player actions except from the PR side of things. If anything Skem should receive a greater punishment because his remark was done during a competitive match. Those proposed punishments seemed way too harsh for Kuku, and at most I would reduce it to skem's level (fine + 3-game ban) in your situation. Then again, I am in the camp that they have been reprimanded enough so we'll agree to disagree there.

This sort of cover-up lie which you claim has forever tarnished Kuku's/TNC's reputation, from what I'm reading, can essentially never be solved except be washed away with time. In my opinion, any direct intervention from Valve or potential government action is a bandaid measure, unless Kuku personally does something to redeem himself, which apparently he can't do anymore because anything he does would not be perceived as sincere. So he is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
November 27 2018 16:49 GMT
#47
I feel like this will just end with Valve saying that DPC tournaments can’t ban players, citing their earlier statement on “teams should enact punishment,” and then Kuku’s visa mysteriously gets denied.
hunter_x
Profile Joined June 2014
Germany2762 Posts
November 27 2018 16:53 GMT
#48
On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:
On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:
On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident?


In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular.

Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it.

Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general.

the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up

making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again.
HolyPepsi
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada210 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-27 17:41:46
November 27 2018 17:12 GMT
#49
it is up to the group that's being discriminated to say whether it is offensive or not.... what you feel is offensive or not does not always the same in a different culture..
the word "nigger" has a very mild equivalent Chinese term - "black ghost". its a folk slang to describe most other ethics, "white ghost", "Japanese ghost"... these terms are derived from 19th-century foreign evasion.. ghost is used to describe foreigners as a slang and it is still being commonly used today (obviously not in official environment).. and for the obvious reason for China not involved in all the black Amercian history, the translation of "nigger" does not carry any particular offensive meaning.
Without knowing American history, a local Chinese may call a black person "black ghost (nigger)" without carrying racist intent.. but is it ok? Of course not, because it is up to the group being offended to say.
try not to have a double standard here .. if the group felt being offended, it is not ok.

Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-27 17:30:51
November 27 2018 17:14 GMT
#50
"they are racist therefore it's fine for us to be racist" is not and will never be an acceptable argument. Two wrongs do not make a right.

We are not the police of random dota players, wherever they may come from, though we may implore them to be better. In this circumstance though, it is fair for us to discuss judgement of community figures who, by the weight of their place in the dota ecosystem, have a responsibility to be better. If and when a community figure uses racial slurs in a public setting, regardless of that player's origin it is important for the community to condemn that rather than justify it.

Context is of course critical in determining consequences and I think that the vast majority of non-chinese dota players consider the matter dealt with given the context of the offences. Maybe some people think stricter punishment could have been levied, but few outside of china consider the punishment outrageously soft.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
nuketurnal2
Profile Joined August 2018
62 Posts
November 27 2018 17:21 GMT
#51
i mean, i've seen people making fun of the indian accent, or some other muslim countries. indonesians being called indogs. filipinos being called pignoys. thais being trans etc
TRAP[yoo]
Profile Joined December 2009
Hungary6026 Posts
November 27 2018 18:54 GMT
#52
On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:
On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:
On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident?


In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular.

Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it.

Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general.

the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up

making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again.

thats not the point. sn0_mans post should answer this one just fine...

its nice that you pick out the fun in quotation marks instead of focusing on it being an offensive remark.
FTD
ischgi
Profile Joined November 2018
1 Post
November 28 2018 10:03 GMT
#53
Thank you for the post. It's really hard to understand the Chinese mind and I am pretty sure that I actually have not. But it helped a lot to get a small insight and idea of the problem.

Maybe that's the point. People are so different that we can't truly understand. We should learn to respect that and rather be respectful and careful when communicating. You never know what might hurt the players that enjoy the same game you do.
550
Profile Joined April 2018
418 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-28 16:18:49
November 28 2018 12:17 GMT
#54
On November 28 2018 19:03 ischgi wrote:
Thank you for the post. It's really hard to understand the Chinese mind and I am pretty sure that I actually have not. But it helped a lot to get a small insight and idea of the problem.

Maybe that's the point. People are so different that we can't truly understand. We should learn to respect that and rather be respectful and careful when communicating. You never know what might hurt the players that enjoy the same game you do.


yes.. i somewhat understand it (that mind),

but maybe,
it seems to be influenced by many (rushing people around there), that needs to finish fast

i differ..
around here its..
on some light/general occassions, i wanna finish last, i just generally do, and am encouraged to, its nice
Emnjay808
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States10655 Posts
November 28 2018 14:25 GMT
#55
On November 28 2018 01:49 overt wrote:
I feel like this will just end with Valve saying that DPC tournaments can’t ban players, citing their earlier statement on “teams should enact punishment,” and then Kuku’s visa mysteriously gets denied.

This is pretty much how I expect things to boil out as well
Skol
550
Profile Joined April 2018
418 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-28 16:12:50
November 28 2018 14:51 GMT
#56
tbh, kuku (looked like) he was signaling his displease (somewhat) <<this

-
in the first few weeks, i get it, because it was a pub, and because he went the effort to coax the person to change the name, and because the culture is like so

still, he chose the ass path (i would too, maybe, i dont know, depends on my mood/stress levels/whatever/if my boss/others is inspiring me to be nice)

.
this is just two very different expectations clashing,

both sides had standards, (or rather, the standard to lack a standard)
broken
and it got amplified, by annonimity in the internet.

still, tbh, kuku could have been much more professional
(was gonna use the word "sincere", but professionality is enough, better if it was both)


--
edit: actually i dont know kuku chose what path,
maybe i just assumed

(on the cn side, that expectation, is normal(?), afterall it started as an insult on a nationwide broadcast)

my personal opinion? maybe its not about the ACT OF "WORDS" / policing the words.
maybe its just <<THAT>> (kuku')

but understandably,
on CN side, what to do? context started as skem's nationwide thing, and the topics all there, developed the way it did,

it was peddled to the world as a public insult, kuku's (assumed) signals is still there

if CN was just defending its position AS A BUSINESS, not as a nation, it would still require Kuku to make the first, sincere (professional) move,

public would be better, but A PERSONAL EMAIL, mightve helped, honestly
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
November 28 2018 15:21 GMT
#57
raphael yu, people who disagree with you, they more or less don't feel the racism tied with those words.

we're at a point whereby social media lends opportunities to change how players are held accountable for some of the things they say or do.
we can hold our own opinions rather than parsing what the news sector writes on a topic.
-----

where i live and anywhere i can imagine, the words "ching chong" are used in schoolyard bullying or in comedy.

it's like this because the meaning of the phrase has changed.

people like me who were born here but have deep roots in non-western ethnicity grew up generally unoffended by its usage. my biggest concern is mob mentality with these sort of things and how people will be ignorant and parrot whatever it is they think is funny. if it happens enough, it eventually changes the meaning of the words once again and becomes something truly discriminatory for just about no reason at all.

the ideas themselves of discrimination, bigotry, or bullying are the obnoxious points and why people will fight for punishment of these players.
it's direct, blatant, and easy to make an example out of... but it practically affects single digit % of people from, again, anywhere i can imagine.

and that's just it. we think about the level of punishment to a practical end.
when the parts of the chinese community first acted extremely offended, it was an understandable overreaction.
so many people out there in the world are like this and even on an individual basis we are like this.

nobody--absolutely nobody--should be actively looking down on and stifling another person based on what you cannot change about yourself from birth.
skem and kuku? they were not doing something like that.
instead, they were doing tasteless comedy that wouldn't be funny to anyone but themselves.

does taking money out from their winnings stop them from another public act?
did confronting them about it do the job?
did angry tweets also deter the act from happening again?
yes.
and it also should have been made crystal clear that nobody should condone behaviour like that.
instead, it escalated because of the difference in concept and opinion,
and because bits and pieces of the chinese dota community also cannot find it within themselves to understand that it is not actually intended racism.
we're past the original usage of the word from the early 1900's.
we have millennial and gen Z adults who were born in a diverse environment.

you can hate the players because they were dumb, and they might even make up for it eventually.
you absolutely cannot hate a community or the people running it because they have a different view on what punishment looks like.


best to remember the incident but wash the salt out of your mouth.
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
clusen
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany8702 Posts
November 28 2018 15:35 GMT
#58
On November 28 2018 23:25 Emnjay808 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2018 01:49 overt wrote:
I feel like this will just end with Valve saying that DPC tournaments can’t ban players, citing their earlier statement on “teams should enact punishment,” and then Kuku’s visa mysteriously gets denied.

This is pretty much how I expect things to boil out as well

I don't see what else they can do. Parts of the chinese community fucked up big time by being the worst offenders in this story.

550
Profile Joined April 2018
418 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-28 16:45:56
November 28 2018 15:52 GMT
#59
On November 29 2018 00:35 clusen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2018 23:25 Emnjay808 wrote:
On November 28 2018 01:49 overt wrote:
I feel like this will just end with Valve saying that DPC tournaments can’t ban players, citing their earlier statement on “teams should enact punishment,” and then Kuku’s visa mysteriously gets denied.

This is pretty much how I expect things to boil out as well

I don't see what else they can do. Parts of the chinese community fucked up big time by being the worst offenders in this story.



sir,
correct me if im wrong

but
it all started (Skem's case) on a nationwide broadcast, it got egged there, justifiable.

--
lemme put an equivalent on how it started, if it was Germany,

its okay, if someone said some words, in a public nationwide, official broadcast (an asian, lets take for example)
IF IT WAS FUNNY.

what if it wasnt? wouldnt it have egged the way it did?

after the egg.
after the public topic, would there be any choice but to defend the position, had it developed the way with (kuku's assumed signals) (my previous long post)

the assumed signals here, is actually the problem, an undefined thing, but i think both sides can sense it
550
Profile Joined April 2018
418 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-28 17:28:27
November 28 2018 16:40 GMT
#60
(2/2)

edit: i wrote something too long.

its kinda up to the involved parties to realize what they have "locked" the other parties from doing though

i think, maybe its not about being mad or not already at this point, in the cn forums
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 11h 47m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .274
Nathanias 211
BRAT_OK 53
Nina 10
StarCraft: Brood War
Sexy 36
Bale 8
Dota 2
monkeys_forever376
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1098
Foxcn289
taco 1
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe110
Liquid`Ken37
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu407
Other Games
tarik_tv10053
summit1g7468
Grubby3470
FrodaN1584
C9.Mang0221
Sick42
Maynarde14
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV32
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta80
• poizon28 49
• musti20045 44
• Hupsaiya 38
• RyuSc2 3
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Eskiya23 18
• Azhi_Dahaki7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22708
League of Legends
• Doublelift3141
Other Games
• imaqtpie1260
• Shiphtur416
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
11h 47m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 12h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.