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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote: How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. | ||
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote: In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. It's just like my pubs. the biggest flamers can't take flame against themselves at all. Not wanting to be rude, but that's the reason why I don't care about anything this Raphael dude has to say at all. This is going on for way to long already, and I am sick of it. The skem and kuku bans are the icing on the cake... | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote: Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
http://dota2.tncproteam.com/2018/11/27/official-statement-disciplinary-action-by-tnc/?fbclid=IwAR2DvKT5nmSl7GQMlGpzkl9_9mTizUqZCr03ua4zX-7JozjC3xBDAV0rE9M – We will be fining Carlo “Kuku” Palad 50% of his winnings from the Kuala Lumpur Major, and either of the following: If the team directly qualifies to the Major, 50% of his winnings from the Chongqing Major. If the team qualifies for the Minor, 50% of his winnings from the Bucharest Minor. If the team qualifies for the Major through winning the Minor, 50% of his winnings from either the Minor or the Major (whichever is bigger). If the team does not qualify for the Chongqing Major, Kuku will stream/cover the LAN Finals of the said Major, and all earnings from the stream will be donated to IMADR. -The amount will be donated to https://imadr.org – The International Movement Against All Forms of Discrimination and Racism (IMADR) – 50% of Paulo Sy’s one month’s salary shall be donated to IMADR as well. TNC won 60K at KL Major, and will make a minimum of 10K at Chongqing. Thats not a insignificant amount of money. Also there is what seems to be an apoplgy and an ask for a second chance on his twitter (its mostly in filipino i am just guessing). So is this enough punishment? | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
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Wineandbread
United States2065 Posts
Now that TNC qualified in the 2nd slot it seems that we're on the warpath leading to inevitable conflict. If Valve were going to dish out punishment for him it's too late now, it would completely shatter the competitive integrity Valve is trying to build. You proposed different punishments for kuku/skem which I found odd because realistically there's not much of a difference in their specific player actions except from the PR side of things. If anything Skem should receive a greater punishment because his remark was done during a competitive match. Those proposed punishments seemed way too harsh for Kuku, and at most I would reduce it to skem's level (fine + 3-game ban) in your situation. Then again, I am in the camp that they have been reprimanded enough so we'll agree to disagree there. This sort of cover-up lie which you claim has forever tarnished Kuku's/TNC's reputation, from what I'm reading, can essentially never be solved except be washed away with time. In my opinion, any direct intervention from Valve or potential government action is a bandaid measure, unless Kuku personally does something to redeem himself, which apparently he can't do anymore because anything he does would not be perceived as sincere. So he is stuck between a rock and a hard place. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote: Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. | ||
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HolyPepsi
Canada210 Posts
the word "nigger" has a very mild equivalent Chinese term - "black ghost". its a folk slang to describe most other ethics, "white ghost", "Japanese ghost"... these terms are derived from 19th-century foreign evasion.. ghost is used to describe foreigners as a slang and it is still being commonly used today (obviously not in official environment).. and for the obvious reason for China not involved in all the black Amercian history, the translation of "nigger" does not carry any particular offensive meaning. Without knowing American history, a local Chinese may call a black person "black ghost (nigger)" without carrying racist intent.. but is it ok? Of course not, because it is up to the group being offended to say. try not to have a double standard here .. if the group felt being offended, it is not ok. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
We are not the police of random dota players, wherever they may come from, though we may implore them to be better. In this circumstance though, it is fair for us to discuss judgement of community figures who, by the weight of their place in the dota ecosystem, have a responsibility to be better. If and when a community figure uses racial slurs in a public setting, regardless of that player's origin it is important for the community to condemn that rather than justify it. Context is of course critical in determining consequences and I think that the vast majority of non-chinese dota players consider the matter dealt with given the context of the offences. Maybe some people think stricter punishment could have been levied, but few outside of china consider the punishment outrageously soft. | ||
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nuketurnal2
62 Posts
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote: making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. thats not the point. sn0_mans post should answer this one just fine... its nice that you pick out the fun in quotation marks instead of focusing on it being an offensive remark. | ||
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ischgi
1 Post
Maybe that's the point. People are so different that we can't truly understand. We should learn to respect that and rather be respectful and careful when communicating. You never know what might hurt the players that enjoy the same game you do. | ||
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550
418 Posts
On November 28 2018 19:03 ischgi wrote: Thank you for the post. It's really hard to understand the Chinese mind and I am pretty sure that I actually have not. But it helped a lot to get a small insight and idea of the problem. Maybe that's the point. People are so different that we can't truly understand. We should learn to respect that and rather be respectful and careful when communicating. You never know what might hurt the players that enjoy the same game you do. yes.. i somewhat understand it (that mind), but maybe, it seems to be influenced by many (rushing people around there), that needs to finish fast i differ.. around here its.. on some light/general occassions, i wanna finish last, i just generally do, and am encouraged to, its nice | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10665 Posts
On November 28 2018 01:49 overt wrote: I feel like this will just end with Valve saying that DPC tournaments can’t ban players, citing their earlier statement on “teams should enact punishment,” and then Kuku’s visa mysteriously gets denied. This is pretty much how I expect things to boil out as well | ||
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550
418 Posts
- in the first few weeks, i get it, because it was a pub, and because he went the effort to coax the person to change the name, and because the culture is like so still, he chose the ass path (i would too, maybe, i dont know, depends on my mood/stress levels/whatever/if my boss/others is inspiring me to be nice) . this is just two very different expectations clashing, both sides had standards, (or rather, the standard to lack a standard) broken and it got amplified, by annonimity in the internet. still, tbh, kuku could have been much more professional (was gonna use the word "sincere", but professionality is enough, better if it was both) -- edit: actually i dont know kuku chose what path, maybe i just assumed (on the cn side, that expectation, is normal(?), afterall it started as an insult on a nationwide broadcast) my personal opinion? maybe its not about the ACT OF "WORDS" / policing the words. maybe its just <<THAT>> (kuku') but understandably, on CN side, what to do? context started as skem's nationwide thing, and the topics all there, developed the way it did, it was peddled to the world as a public insult, kuku's (assumed) signals is still there if CN was just defending its position AS A BUSINESS, not as a nation, it would still require Kuku to make the first, sincere (professional) move, public would be better, but A PERSONAL EMAIL, mightve helped, honestly | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
we're at a point whereby social media lends opportunities to change how players are held accountable for some of the things they say or do. we can hold our own opinions rather than parsing what the news sector writes on a topic. ----- where i live and anywhere i can imagine, the words "ching chong" are used in schoolyard bullying or in comedy. it's like this because the meaning of the phrase has changed. people like me who were born here but have deep roots in non-western ethnicity grew up generally unoffended by its usage. my biggest concern is mob mentality with these sort of things and how people will be ignorant and parrot whatever it is they think is funny. if it happens enough, it eventually changes the meaning of the words once again and becomes something truly discriminatory for just about no reason at all. the ideas themselves of discrimination, bigotry, or bullying are the obnoxious points and why people will fight for punishment of these players. it's direct, blatant, and easy to make an example out of... but it practically affects single digit % of people from, again, anywhere i can imagine. and that's just it. we think about the level of punishment to a practical end. when the parts of the chinese community first acted extremely offended, it was an understandable overreaction. so many people out there in the world are like this and even on an individual basis we are like this. nobody--absolutely nobody--should be actively looking down on and stifling another person based on what you cannot change about yourself from birth. skem and kuku? they were not doing something like that. instead, they were doing tasteless comedy that wouldn't be funny to anyone but themselves. does taking money out from their winnings stop them from another public act? did confronting them about it do the job? did angry tweets also deter the act from happening again? yes. and it also should have been made crystal clear that nobody should condone behaviour like that. instead, it escalated because of the difference in concept and opinion, and because bits and pieces of the chinese dota community also cannot find it within themselves to understand that it is not actually intended racism. we're past the original usage of the word from the early 1900's. we have millennial and gen Z adults who were born in a diverse environment. you can hate the players because they were dumb, and they might even make up for it eventually. you absolutely cannot hate a community or the people running it because they have a different view on what punishment looks like. best to remember the incident but wash the salt out of your mouth. | ||
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
On November 28 2018 23:25 Emnjay808 wrote: This is pretty much how I expect things to boil out as well I don't see what else they can do. Parts of the chinese community fucked up big time by being the worst offenders in this story. | ||
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550
418 Posts
On November 29 2018 00:35 clusen wrote: I don't see what else they can do. Parts of the chinese community fucked up big time by being the worst offenders in this story. sir, correct me if im wrong but it all started (Skem's case) on a nationwide broadcast, it got egged there, justifiable. -- lemme put an equivalent on how it started, if it was Germany, its okay, if someone said some words, in a public nationwide, official broadcast (an asian, lets take for example) IF IT WAS FUNNY. what if it wasnt? wouldnt it have egged the way it did? after the egg. after the public topic, would there be any choice but to defend the position, had it developed the way with (kuku's assumed signals) (my previous long post) the assumed signals here, is actually the problem, an undefined thing, but i think both sides can sense it | ||
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550
418 Posts
edit: i wrote something too long. its kinda up to the involved parties to realize what they have "locked" the other parties from doing though i think, maybe its not about being mad or not already at this point, in the cn forums | ||
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