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Hi,
I've read the entire post (it's interesting) and here's a perspective from a Pinoy who's also a quarter Chinese.
First off, I'd like to thank the OP for taking the time and effort to build bridges and close gaps between cultures and nations. It's very commendable, and I'm sad that your motivation has dropped. Still, I say you shouldn't be blamed. Everyone have setbacks sometime sooner or later, and maybe we just need some time off of what we're doing, do something else that we're interested in, and once we realize that we still want to build bridges and close gaps, then we can continue on it with renewed vigor.
I'd like to next talk about Skem's involvement. You have already said that maybe Skem looked up to Envy and other pros and didn't really want to demean anyone, much less the entire Chinese community. He's young, and may have been having too much fun. People here in the Philippines are really laid-back (well, most, as we can't really generalize everything). Fun fact, his IGN, Skemberlu, comes from Philippine gay lingo that doesn't really mean anything other than just, Skemberlu (like, just an expression). That said, I'd like to know more about why "chingchong" is considered really offensive. Is it as offensive as some people saying that Filipinos are a race of "servants" or "maids"? If it isn't then I'd think it was an immense overreaction the Chinese community's part to ban Skem. He was already issued a penalty, I don't think he deserves a ban.
Next, is Kuku and TNC's thing. This, I understand the rage. For those people saying that it's a little thing, sure, the racist remarks were not really a big deal especially since it was just a pub (happens all the time especially in SEA), but the big thing was that the apology was a lie. They not only made the community trust them and then broke their trust, it also hit the reputation of those big, vocal personalities in the community who defended them. It's like if I have a guy best friend who had a girlfriend, and we accidentally read a message from her to another guy that says "hi babe ^_^", and when he confronted her she says that it's a misunderstanding and that "babe" is his name. Of course I'd want to soothe the angst and will talk to my friend saying that there are guys who are named "Babe" (Babe Ruth?), and I do that, but then we catch her cheating the very next day. What would you feel? Yes, that's exactly what it is. Maybe some of you will say that "but cheating is not the same as racism", but you don't get my point. The point is, they lied, they spun them on their fingertips, and they broke their trust not just towards them but between the people who were lied to.
I'm not going to comment anything about Valve as I don't know enough to comment on it yet.
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On November 27 2018 11:19 Tio- wrote:
Thank you for writing this. I really appreciate your effort on sharing china dota2 community's point of view.
So, to sum it up:
1. Skem's racist remark was forgivable.
2. Kuku's racist remark was forgivable.
3. Kuku's attempt to cover up was unforgivable - that was indeed.. unmanly, to say the least. I don't know english well enough to word it better.
4. The ChongQing municipal government has no ability to ban skem / kuku from China, but they have the ability to cancel the whole ChongQing major.
5. You suspected that the ChongQing municipal government representative is pressuring the tournament organizer to ban skem or kuku, because for him their arrival would be similar to allowing a political hazard into his domain which would risk his career forever.
6. You suspected the tournament organizer, who:
- obviously don't want the major to be cancelled by the municipal government because that's a lot of money lost,
- but also don't want to admit that they are actually the one with power to ban skem / kuku
- and don't want to deal with the shitshow fans will throw on them if they ban skem / kuku
is the one who spreads rumour about municipal government banning skem and kuku, AND at the same time persuading col and TNC to drops skem / kuku so they don't have to ban them publicly.
Correct me if any of my point is false, please. i think people(you too, but people in here in general) skip over the most relevant part/phrase which is "The key opinion leaders (KOLs) in Chinese community". those dudes are the main culprits in this escalating drama. they 'influenced' (more of)the chinese community.
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Dunno about banning Skem. I mean CoL already benched him because of the often visa issues AND this incident, so banning him or not banning him makes little to no difference, unless we are talking about 1y ban or something. As for Kuku, as far as I know, for Chinese people. honor and integrity matter more than most Westerners can understand, so KOLs or not, the community would have not taken it kindly to be lied to. So I am not particularly surprised things went this far. Not sure what the correct course of action from Valve is in this case, but even if let's say Valve does nothing about it, correct me if I am wrong, but don't you require a visa to get into China? I mean, the regional government can surely put in "a good word" to make sure Kuku does not get a visa at least for the major...maybe even for TI
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On November 27 2018 02:24 ahswtini wrote:
As the son of Chinese immigrants, I often see firsthand the xenophobic "it's us and them" attitude that mainland Chinese have towards the rest of the world. A mild example would be the term 'lao wai' which is informally used to refer to foreigners. It is comparable to the English 'Johnny Foreigner'.
A stronger example, that perhaps crosses the line into racism, is how white people are referred to as 'gui zi' or literally ghost or devil. It's a term my parents throw out quite often, I doubt with any real malice intended. Perhaps Chinese attitudes in the mainland have changed since they left, which was just under 30 years ago, but I doubt it. I think we've all seen or at least heard of racist ads on Chinese TV. Like the detergent ad where a Chinese woman puts a black man into a washing machine, adds the detergent, and out comes a Chinese man. So I suppose my question is this - do Chinese think racism is acceptable if only expressed in private?
It's no denial that "it's us and them" mentality is the mainstream mindset of the Chinese community and it promotes segregation by nature. I believe there are reasons for it too, which would be a giant social research package that I cannot reproduce myself. To shed some light from my personal experience and my observation of the Chinese society, I believe the problem lies on diversity. I had a very enlightening conversation with my Japanese friend recently, and I'm amazed by how much our societies are similar, which we both agreed that the reason why both countries' shared image of xenophobic is rooted in the lack of diversity in the population. With more than 90% of the population being the same ethnic group with the same culture and habits, it's not surprising that they would stick together in unity as they don't communicate with people with other ethnic on daily basis, thus making them knowing little how to live with them. And of course it's my understanding and it's a very underdeveloped and unsupported idea, but it makes a lot of sense to me.
老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. However I don't think it suggests any xenophobic intention by having an informal word for as neutral as "foreigner" though. 鬼子 or "gui zi" on the other hand is indeed very strong and rather demeaning word. Here's a little history about it, this word is originally an abbreviation of 日本鬼子 or "ri ben gui zi" (Japanese gui zi), a word to describe Japanese people back in WWII. Due to the fact that Japan invaded us and conducted inhuman war crime to my homeland, if you find the English counterpart "Japs" justifiable, then this word used at that time would also be justifiable. However it's meaning gradually extended to describe all foreigners in demeaning ways, and that makes it racist as we are not exactly in war with any country at the moment.
30 years is a long time, and generation gaps are real. My dad while being PhD and visit other countries a lot and loved the weather/air/large house with lawn, he really hates foreign people and always call them 洋鬼子"yang gui zi"(foreign gui zi), but that never happens to me or my Chinese friends in US, even though some of them are as patriot as me. I believe is impossible for older generation to change as I failed many times re-educating them with critical thinking to equip them with a tool to tell the nonsense in rumors going viral on WeChat(Chinese Whatsapp). But the young generations in middle-class or upper echelon families are very open minded, probably even too open to embrace the West. I can see a clear line between my generation and my father's, and I have faith in a better future.
I'm glad you bring up the topic of how should racism be defined. It took me several Black History Months and several American History courses to understand how the N-word deserved its significance, which also inspired my understanding of racism. Social science is not like natural science, it's subject to change and has no absolute meaning of right and wrong. Therefore I believe racism works by the interaction of three parts, the word it self, the intention of the assumed offender and the perception of the assumed recipient. So interaction should be either the word itself is racist, or the assumed offender said a neutral word with racist intention, or both, which eventually perceived by the recipient as being offended. So when someone is offended by somebody saying something, we need to examine whether the word itself being racist, or the assumed offender has malicious intention, and either of them leads to the verdict, while neither showed up then it's likely to be a false alarm, or requiring another social campaign to tell people that the word is racist and don't use it against certain people. That kind of social campaign started by African American pioneers and continued by generations of African American people made the N-word to the position it rests now. Honestly I think it's a very fair social system to promote mutual ethnic respect, it's not as easy as all of a sudden someone decide some word is racist so everyone has to not use that word as he said. Word has to be spread with valid reasons, so the majority of the population can voluntarily agree with him, then we reached this social consensus that we had a word that's racist to certain people. For "chngchng", the campaign was started probably century ago, but progress has been slow, to slow to reach /r/dota2.
As for the question about private, I think it's important to emphasis on individuals. African American people say N-word to each other just fine, because they don't feel offended. Back to the interaction model, without recipient feeling offended, I think it's hardly justifiable to accuse the assumed offended saying words with racist nature to be racist, since there's no offence taken. So it's not about Chinese or any ethnic group, or being private or not, but the fact of whether there are people offended or not. Under the premises of fully understanding the meaning of the word used, it's the individual who decide whether he is offended or not, not by any third parties. When no offence taken, everyone's cool. So that applies to your question perfectly. Say Chinese talked about "gui zi" to another Chinese, and the other Chinese is cool with it, then this conversation is fine. Say we add another foreigner who speaks Chinese and he's offended by the word, then the Chinese doing the talk should be held accountable for racist. Say we remove the foreigner and add a camera, with both Chinese knowing this conversation will be on the record, and later show the tape to a foreigner who is offended, then the speaker should still be held accountable for racist. It's not a Chinese thing, but a common sense I believed in. The racist Ad you mentioned, is definitely racist, but that requires the majority of the population to raise empathy to the minority nearly nonexistent in China, which will take time to spread from the Internet to the rural areas. We are making progress though. In the last Spring Festival Gala, a show intended to promote the friendship between China and African people was considered extremely racist by the Chinese netizens and the producer of that show along with the writers had all been fired from the China Central Television.
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On November 27 2018 03:55 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 02:19 Raphael_YU wrote:On November 26 2018 23:55 Toshiru wrote:
Thanks for the information it really makes for a fuller picture. I cannot understand completely your position since I am not from China, although I agree that the mistakes made where actual mistakes and should by all means be punished. On the other hand though I can and will consider this an overreaction. What's the difference from him trying to save his pride by lying, and you trying to save your pride by agreeing on his ban. Being proud is not an issue but when that affects your judgement certainly seems wrong to me. Pushing for a punishment I can understand, banning the players I cannot.
Honestly I cannot understand at all how such small things can escalate so much. How can the municipal government even bother with a single person that said a single discriminating comment. How can this be an unforgivable situation, it's just something I can NOT comprehend sadly.
I totally agree on the other hand that this situation could have been handled much more effectively from Valve and will partially blame them for trying to take the 'not involved' route. Responsibility lies in all involved parties and really hope that this issue will be resolved quickly and in a peaceful and fair manner. It's dangerous practice to make juxtaposed comparisons because they might not be similar at all. You assumed his intention and our intention, in order to form such juxtaposed comparisons, which might not be the case. Precisely speaking, there are many difference between his lying to us with whatever motivation I'm not certain of and agreeing on his ban as a result of being offended twice in a row. Whatever motivation Kuku had, the action of lying is no doubt a form of offense, proving the ill intention of him or whomever made the decision. It clearly lies on the "wrong" side of the moral scale, which made worse by the content of the lie was trying to raise our guiltiness on blaming the innocent guy, taking advantage of our good intentions. Even if we are overreacting, we are still reacting to a proved misdemeanor with a justifiable cause. I can hardly find ill intended lies comparable with how far the justice should be served. Bottom line, one should be held accountable for lying, and one should be persuaded on how to deliver justice. We can both agree to the disagreement on how Kuku should be punished, and honestly it's the problem of all collective grass-root movements, no consensus on the detailed terms could be reached, and everyone tend to goes to the extreme. Is it unacceptable for the Chinese community to demand not to see Kuku in Chongqing even if they qualified? I found it acceptable if I were given the chance to make that choice. That being said, that opinion is shared by Chongqing municipal government as well. They just don't want to see people with fairly fresh anti-China records to be treated as a welcomed guest. It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him. It's a potential political hazard which could be exploited by the nationalist Chinese, and I believe neither of us want to see those nationalist fuckers winning. The municipal government made the decision simply to answer the calls of the Chinese community, and it's municipal decision, so it can hardly be duplicated by any other Chinese cities hosting a tournament without the community outcry. Once the justice was served, it gives a good reason for the forgiving part of the community to argue with the nationalists when it comes to the next event hosted in China, when we could never form an unified voice against any player again. I believe it's a future that we can count on and live with. No offense but the first paragraph makes it sound like he hit someone with his car, ran away and then lied to the police. We are still talking about action that did not harm anybody directly. And i am refering to the Mind_Control incedent because they are simular. Professional dota players making racist statements online and a local community reacting to it.
"Directly" is still composed of many aspects, so physically, no, but mentally and emotionally, severely. The problem of our misunderstanding of the magnitude of the offence still lies at the fact that our feelings of being lied to cannot be effectively empathized by the rest of the global community. I'm not a good writer in English and as an engineering student, I'm very reluctant to write sensational words to incite demagogue among the readers as I consider it despicable. But judge by how populism rose in the recent years, it indeed does the trick and maybe that's what the Chinese community really need to do.
So I don't blame anyone for not getting the same feelings as we do. But I can guarantee that at least for me, who have been practicing for many years to have a heart of stone so I could make logical judgement under most occasions, my feeling of being lied to by Kuku was overwhelming, even though I'm usually not an emotional person. I believe you can tell it from my original post as well, while only the Kuku part and Dota made it to state news part did I use some emotional expressions, because that's what I really felt. As for the rest of the post, it's very peaceful.
I think I talked a lot about MC, and by no mean I can speak for the Russian community on why they didn't speak out, but it's obvious that Team Liquid's same day announcement with detailed relieve package and sincerity definitely helped a lot, which is something entirely different on Kuku. The similarity of how it happened doesn't really imply the communities should react the same way with different damage control approaches.
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"Directly" is still composed of many aspects, so physically, no, but mentally and emotionally, severely. The problem of our misunderstanding of the magnitude of the offence still lies at the fact that our feelings of being lied to cannot be effectively empathized by the rest of the global community. I'm not a good writer in English and as an engineering student, I'm very reluctant to write sensational words to incite demagogue among the readers as I consider it despicable. But judge by how populism rose in the recent years, it indeed does the trick and maybe that's what the Chinese community really need to do.
So I don't blame anyone for not getting the same feelings as we do. But I can guarantee that at least for me, who have been practicing for many years to have a heart of stone so I could make logical judgement under most occasions, my feeling of being lied to by Kuku was overwhelming, even though I'm usually not an emotional person. I believe you can tell it from my original post as well, while only the Kuku part and Dota made it to state news part did I use some emotional expressions, because that's what I really felt. As for the rest of the post, it's very peaceful.
I am sorry but i just dont really get why this is so deply personal to you. This did not affect the live of a single person negatively besides the idiots that sayed it.
I think I talked a lot about MC, and by no mean I can speak for the Russian community on why they didn't speak out, but it's obvious that Team Liquid's same day announcement with detailed relieve package and sincerity definitely helped a lot, which is something entirely different on Kuku. The similarity of how it happened doesn't really imply the communities should react the same way with different damage control approaches.
So what MC did wasnt as bad because Team Liquid has a better PR department then TNC does? Is this really what you are implying?
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On November 27 2018 18:32 Raphael_YU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 03:55 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 02:19 Raphael_YU wrote:On November 26 2018 23:55 Toshiru wrote:
Thanks for the information it really makes for a fuller picture. I cannot understand completely your position since I am not from China, although I agree that the mistakes made where actual mistakes and should by all means be punished. On the other hand though I can and will consider this an overreaction. What's the difference from him trying to save his pride by lying, and you trying to save your pride by agreeing on his ban. Being proud is not an issue but when that affects your judgement certainly seems wrong to me. Pushing for a punishment I can understand, banning the players I cannot.
Honestly I cannot understand at all how such small things can escalate so much. How can the municipal government even bother with a single person that said a single discriminating comment. How can this be an unforgivable situation, it's just something I can NOT comprehend sadly.
I totally agree on the other hand that this situation could have been handled much more effectively from Valve and will partially blame them for trying to take the 'not involved' route. Responsibility lies in all involved parties and really hope that this issue will be resolved quickly and in a peaceful and fair manner. It's dangerous practice to make juxtaposed comparisons because they might not be similar at all. You assumed his intention and our intention, in order to form such juxtaposed comparisons, which might not be the case. Precisely speaking, there are many difference between his lying to us with whatever motivation I'm not certain of and agreeing on his ban as a result of being offended twice in a row. Whatever motivation Kuku had, the action of lying is no doubt a form of offense, proving the ill intention of him or whomever made the decision. It clearly lies on the "wrong" side of the moral scale, which made worse by the content of the lie was trying to raise our guiltiness on blaming the innocent guy, taking advantage of our good intentions. Even if we are overreacting, we are still reacting to a proved misdemeanor with a justifiable cause. I can hardly find ill intended lies comparable with how far the justice should be served. Bottom line, one should be held accountable for lying, and one should be persuaded on how to deliver justice. We can both agree to the disagreement on how Kuku should be punished, and honestly it's the problem of all collective grass-root movements, no consensus on the detailed terms could be reached, and everyone tend to goes to the extreme. Is it unacceptable for the Chinese community to demand not to see Kuku in Chongqing even if they qualified? I found it acceptable if I were given the chance to make that choice. That being said, that opinion is shared by Chongqing municipal government as well. They just don't want to see people with fairly fresh anti-China records to be treated as a welcomed guest. It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him. It's a potential political hazard which could be exploited by the nationalist Chinese, and I believe neither of us want to see those nationalist fuckers winning. The municipal government made the decision simply to answer the calls of the Chinese community, and it's municipal decision, so it can hardly be duplicated by any other Chinese cities hosting a tournament without the community outcry. Once the justice was served, it gives a good reason for the forgiving part of the community to argue with the nationalists when it comes to the next event hosted in China, when we could never form an unified voice against any player again. I believe it's a future that we can count on and live with. No offense but the first paragraph makes it sound like he hit someone with his car, ran away and then lied to the police. We are still talking about action that did not harm anybody directly. And i am refering to the Mind_Control incedent because they are simular. Professional dota players making racist statements online and a local community reacting to it. "Directly" is still composed of many aspects, so physically, no, but mentally and emotionally, severely. The problem of our misunderstanding of the magnitude of the offence still lies at the fact that our feelings of being lied to cannot be effectively empathized by the rest of the global community. I'm not a good writer in English and as an engineering student, I'm very reluctant to write sensational words to incite demagogue among the readers as I consider it despicable. But judge by how populism rose in the recent years, it indeed does the trick and maybe that's what the Chinese community really need to do. So I don't blame anyone for not getting the same feelings as we do. But I can guarantee that at least for me, who have been practicing for many years to have a heart of stone so I could make logical judgement under most occasions, my feeling of being lied to by Kuku was overwhelming, even though I'm usually not an emotional person. I believe you can tell it from my original post as well, while only the Kuku part and Dota made it to state news part did I use some emotional expressions, because that's what I really felt. As for the rest of the post, it's very peaceful. I think I talked a lot about MC, and by no mean I can speak for the Russian community on why they didn't speak out, but it's obvious that Team Liquid's same day announcement with detailed relieve package and sincerity definitely helped a lot, which is something entirely different on Kuku. The similarity of how it happened doesn't really imply the communities should react the same way with different damage control approaches.
After checking all the comments, this seems to be one of the situations that we can agree to disagree  . It's one that I cannot help but see differently (possibly due to the difference in culture), although I do understand your point of view.
I just hope that Valve can come up with a solution to appease everyone.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
Wait, i am out of loop but what exactly is demeaning about CC? For a language where a name pronounced wrong becomes an insult, CC really sounds harmless, you know.
Heck, in comparison banana sounds like far harsher a slur on it's own merit.
That said, lying in one's apology is truly worth being butthurt over, i agree with that one.
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On November 27 2018 03:58 nanaoei wrote:
i don't think you should be demotivated.
i'm replying because i see your intentions.
first of all, we are all human, have the same sort of intelligence, are capable of empathy, so on and so forth.
when people say that it is way overblown (a huge overreaction) they also need to accept that the chinese community have reasons to why they're offended, just like you would have reasons to be offended about anything else.
he's attempting to clarify that it's not as simple as punishing a mistake, and accepting that western folk can be dumb and stupid in different ways than other people across the world.
but you also have to understand just how stupid people can be to say something entirely unnecessary.
many of us are used to the dumb things that people think or say in public.
we also treat games as public space.
it's an environment where if you take the proper steps you can make yourself heard to an organization like coL and make absolutely sure they understand that it's not okay to do something like that.
you don't need to overreact for them because peers will assess each other and do something about it. the organization will do something about it.
his teammate will go over and say, "hey skem (or whomever) what you did was really fucking stupid, please think about these things and make sure you don't do it again. if you don't understand why it is a big deal i'll get someone to explain it, but take my word for it, it is really not worth even thinking these things about other people."
and that's it. they get fined, they get a lot of peer pressure, they feel the shame and whatever else for not thinking things through and having to deal with the mistake in public light. if it recurs, that person is a scumbag in this aspect of their life and they don't receive any support.
that is what we're used to, and it is frankly enough.
further punishment and everything added on top of that is considered an overreaction.
there was no reason for the train to start. we have better things to do with our lives than to feel offended and lied to.
so why do you need to continue to pursue justice?
is there actually a logical reason that doesn't involve hypocrisy?
First of all thank you for your understanding on the Chinese community being triggered in the first place. /r/dota2 still have a lot of troubles to come this far.
Now as I mentioned, the Chinese community is almost past the phase being mad at Skem. We are all on board the emotional train, which gets ready after Kuku's lie and starts after Valve handed it down. So for Skem, Chinese community including me are referring to Riot's penalty on Svenskeren, who said almost exact same thing in Taiwan. Considering it's a pro game and Valve should protect its integrity and public image. It's a widely accepted argument and I think it's fair.
As of now I don't see any kind of similar incident in other esport scenes we could refer to for Kuku's case. However he concept of public space is a good point. Differentiating pub games and pro games into general public space and restricted public space seems like a good practice to me, which opened an entirely new world we could relate to. But it's not my intention to justify anything, merely trying to show what happened and how the community feel on the other side of the table. I've been through too many impossible debates over hypocrisy. The word itself literally make me sick and honestly the hypocrisy debate only ends where both party believes the other one is hypocrite. "If you don't agree with me then you are a fucking hypocrite!" It happened god knows how many times for the last few weeks on /r/dota2.
The rule of thumb to reconcile when both side believes they are justified on what they ask but don't understand neither accept what each other asks for, is to find the middle ground where both party could retreat to. While I introduced our stand and how we get here, you also introduced your stand which seems to be shared by many as I see these points pretty often. As I never forcefully asked any of you guys to share my point, I can hardly find any reason for the Chinese community and I to just live with yours voluntarily. However it's not up us to decide where the middle ground is, but still we don't even know who's on the table to make the call. I guess we can just wait and see.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On November 27 2018 19:51 lolfail9001 wrote:
Wait, i am out of loop but what exactly is demeaning about CC? For a language where a name pronounced wrong becomes an insult, CC really sounds harmless, you know.
Heck, in comparison banana sounds like far harsher a slur on it's own merit.
That said, lying in one's apology is truly worth being butthurt over, i agree with that one.
I'm pretty split on whether CC is offensive. I think it essentially boils down to make fun of the way the language sounds/Chinese people speak. But at the same time making of fun of accents is a commonly accepted form of comedy.
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On November 27 2018 14:50 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 11:19 Tio- wrote:
Thank you for writing this. I really appreciate your effort on sharing china dota2 community's point of view.
So, to sum it up:
1. Skem's racist remark was forgivable.
2. Kuku's racist remark was forgivable.
3. Kuku's attempt to cover up was unforgivable - that was indeed.. unmanly, to say the least. I don't know english well enough to word it better.
4. The ChongQing municipal government has no ability to ban skem / kuku from China, but they have the ability to cancel the whole ChongQing major.
5. You suspected that the ChongQing municipal government representative is pressuring the tournament organizer to ban skem or kuku, because for him their arrival would be similar to allowing a political hazard into his domain which would risk his career forever.
6. You suspected the tournament organizer, who:
- obviously don't want the major to be cancelled by the municipal government because that's a lot of money lost,
- but also don't want to admit that they are actually the one with power to ban skem / kuku
- and don't want to deal with the shitshow fans will throw on them if they ban skem / kuku
is the one who spreads rumour about municipal government banning skem and kuku, AND at the same time persuading col and TNC to drops skem / kuku so they don't have to ban them publicly.
Correct me if any of my point is false, please. i think people(you too, but people in here in general) skip over the most relevant part/phrase which is "The key opinion leaders (KOLs) in Chinese community". those dudes are the main culprits in this escalating drama. they 'influenced' (more of)the chinese community.
KOLs can not escalate anything if they don't have any basis to enrage the community with. Sure, they might add one thing or another, but something worth being angry needed to happen before they can do that.
I've been thinking for a while about this, and I think the correct term about Kuku's actions is irresponsible.
See, I observed that racist remarks are tolerable if the perpetrator assumes responsibility for it.
Sumail takes responsibility on his racist remarks by being good.
Envy takes responsibility on his racist remarks by streaming in chinese, sang chinese song, etc.
MC takes responsiblity on his racist remarks by quick apology and damage control by TL.
Skem on Kuku's racist remarks would be forgivable if they took responsibility for it. They did. But then we found out that Kuku is trying to dodge his responsibility - that is, being irresponsible.
Being politically incorrect is fine (loosely using this word here), but you have to be responsible; take the consequences: don't expect general population to follow your opinion.
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On November 27 2018 19:51 lolfail9001 wrote:
Wait, i am out of loop but what exactly is demeaning about CC? For a language where a name pronounced wrong becomes an insult, CC really sounds harmless, you know.
Heck, in comparison banana sounds like far harsher a slur on it's own merit.
That said, lying in one's apology is truly worth being butthurt over, i agree with that one.
Maybe Google could help you on why CC is demeaning and racist, and you can also find how Riot dealt with Svenskeren saying the same thing. I don't blame anyone who doesn't know the word too well, but I'm sure you'd understand the nature of the word after this 10-minute research.
Thanks for your understanding on the lying part. Glad my reflection reached you.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On November 27 2018 20:10 Raphael_YU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 19:51 lolfail9001 wrote:
Wait, i am out of loop but what exactly is demeaning about CC? For a language where a name pronounced wrong becomes an insult, CC really sounds harmless, you know.
Heck, in comparison banana sounds like far harsher a slur on it's own merit.
That said, lying in one's apology is truly worth being butthurt over, i agree with that one. Maybe Google could help you on why CC is demeaning and racist, and you can also find how Riot dealt with Svenskeren saying the same thing. I don't blame anyone who doesn't know the word too well, but I'm sure you'd understand the nature of the word after this 10-minute research. Thanks for your understanding on the lying part. Glad my reflection reached you.
Google explained to me that CC is making fun of Chinese language phonetics and story of related aggression towards Chinese migrants that used CC as a basis for offensive rhymes, that is precisely why i am confused.
If the history of offensive usage of a word originates in kindergarten-level taunts, and basically ends there, it needs to be very insulting on it's own. And CC is basically limited to making fun of phonetics without any deeper insult... well, actually there probably is, given onomatopoeia "Ka-Ching" and one of tones for Chong, maybe that is why you guys are actually offended by it because it actually is a genius and downright racist insult like that... but kindergarten age kids would not figure it out.
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On November 27 2018 06:40 OmniEulogy wrote:Thank you for taking the time to write all of this out. I feel getting a better idea of why this blew up as quickly and badly as it did is important. I was wondering if the Chinese community has also been discussing the idea of having a commissioner as Julmust suggested in https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/539385-op-ed-solving-the-dpcs-problems this post? I think it would be interesting to hear your opinion on having something like that as well.
Actually it's the very thread you quoted that motivated me to write everything down as I see LiquidDota editors/mods are really making some good points of how to move forward together as one other than secretly developing a narrative to blame the Chinese community, and I'm not talking about /r/dota2, *wink wink*.
I strongly agree with that, but as the post suggested already, it's a job that's almost impossible to last. He will be held responsible for everything happened in Dota2. Whoever takes the job has to be like Jesus making no mistakes and everyone needs to at least holds no grudges against him to start with. Just the last part of not too many people hating him, has already made it impossible for any Chinese figure to take the job as the representative of China. Chinese community is toxic inside man. Forum like SG is literally a shithole where everyone got flamed. It's like 4chan/dota2/zh-cn.
The only righteous candidate I can think of, is actually, probably against every Chinese fan's wishes, PerfectWorld. But they could hardly be trusted for such responsibility. I had friends working in PerfectWorld, and coincidentally its headquarter is in biking distance from my home in Beijing so we get together a lot. Used to be a operation specialist in CS:GO China, he saw and I learnt how people were just doing nothing about anything there. The only perk of this private corporation is that PerfectWorld is very well-connected with the government in many levels. Many offspring of government officials are working there while never actually go to work but still get paid, just to keep those connections. That of course worsen the atmosphere of the company, which included CS:GO China and Dota2.
Now come to think about it, it might also be PerfectWorld telling the Chongqing municipal government to start the whole thing. They definitely have governor's numbers.
In all, when we do have a system like that, the Chinese community will eventually find a representative to communicate with the commissioner that everyone could live with. If there's a campaign to show Valve that we need an actual operation team for the game, count me in. I'll pay for my own expense to show up in Seattle to join the cause if necessary.
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hmm i think end of the day it's a mismatch of expectations from both communities.
No one is arguing that Skem and Kuku should be unpunished but the punishment must be proportionate to the crime.
There is also a measure of reasonableness, nationalism right or wrong is evidently important or even sacred to Chinese people but perhaps a running joke in majority of countries.
Inadvertently western audience do not appreciate the reaction from Chinese community and find it cause for ridicule which further infuriates and fuels the anger.
I don't know I've being around long enough to see the same type of drama over and over... so I can just say this:
When you grew up, you kinda learn to stop giving a fuck about things and focus yourself on things that matter.
Let's not forget why we are here, to enjoy dota at its highest level, I'm sure this latest wave of dramas will fade once the pro season really kicks in.
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On November 27 2018 05:31 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +However most of us, if not all, are proud of being Chinese and as a matter of fact, China is a country with more than 90 percent of the population being the same ethnic group and the minorities don’t have a clear ethnic origin country they could relate to, thus it might strike Westerners as we being nationalists. Mixing ethnic purity and reasons to be proud, we all love where this is going. Can't believe no one called you on that. This overreaction screams racism way more than any cheap derogatory name all countries have for their neighbours. Your nationalism is not looked upon. It really is the easiest way to manipulate the masses, Show nested quote +just providing my opinion to denounce the communist brainwashing narrative because we couldn’t give less shit about Communist Party. Should China be another democratic society in a parallel universe, as long as the Chinese people still echoes with their homeland and diversity still remains a problem, it won’t change a bit. I strongly doubt it.
That's a very blatant implication you made here, and I'm glad that you are the only could understand my word that way which assured me that I'm mostly talking with sane people.
To answer your distortion of my intention, it's a description of Chinese population breakdown, and a group too large in number and too short on diversity being proud of the country they live in, will strike the observers as a nationalist group. Combined with what I explained in the very paragraph afterwards
The difference between Chinese audience and US audience is, US as an immigrant country has far larger diversity than the Chinese counterparts.
Together it showed US audience with 72% Caucasian, 13% African American, 5% Asian and 10% other races, together being proud of being American, doesn't seem to be nationalist at all for their diversity, however the Chinese audience with 91% Han and 9% other races, together being proud of being Chinese, seems to be nationalist for our lack of diversity.
I recommend you to read an article published by New York Times, in their latest series about China. The title is "How China’s Rulers Control Society: Opportunity, Nationalism, Fear". Looks like a easy click bait but says quite the opposite. Check out the story on James Ni and Hua Yijia, so you can see why Chinese people are proud to be Chinese without even giving a flying fuck about the Communist Party propaganda which did shit. I respect your doubts, but I also respect the truth.
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Americans and most of the world are not nationalist because it is an outdated ideology used previously to further nation state agenda, its a trick played on the masses. It's a cancer on humanity.
Chinese are patriotic because of shared history and memories, Chinese are nationalist because they all got sold the bullshit peddled by the current regime.
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On November 27 2018 05:58 crocshark wrote:
I cannot read all this but we all hate perfect world.
So all thse rumors being banned by chinese government are just a scared tactic by people who might/might not have the power to do it.
Kind of agree with the whole assesmen on skem and kuku. Skem is just being dumb, the word probably slip out as a joke. No matter he will still pay for it but banning him from entering china is just too much.
Kuku , on the other hand, he doesnt show remorse. In one of the match in Kuala Lumpur major, theres a random pause by chinese observant. Afterward, near the end of the match when TNC forced the chinese team to concede, Kuku paused the game. I mayble look too much into it but thats pretty passive aggressiveness is showing he doesnt like chinese as a whole. I am not surprised Chinese community banded together in hatred when they found out Kuku lied.
isn't that armel?
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At this point, its not about integrity or whatever the chinese called it. Its bullying because they can and chinese wont be satisfied until they ruined both of these players.
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How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident?
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EPT
