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Canada2068 Posts
On December 02 2018 15:06 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2018 04:31 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 29 2018 02:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein? You see, your comparison would make sense if CC was associated with opium trade. It is not. Or Sino-Japanese war of 30s-40s. It still is not. Not going to say that TL fanfriend's opinion is valid, but CC is truly too weak of an insult, because it neither has brutal history associated with it nor is it insulting on it's own. Heck, the only reason it is an insult is because it sounds funny. In the end it works as lesson in Chinese mindset, given we have already established the main fault being kuku's own screw-up in resolving this mess. it is the same... the only reason i say such things because I know holocause history but you dont know Chinese history in North America. i am quoting my response from anther post in liquiddota... ------------------ Your response was partially contributed to this problem.... Ching Chong and Chink are equivalent to nigger... Slaves were ported to US and Canada during late Qing (Ching dynasty) where men have pony tales on their head.. They could not speak English, being treated like slave and built majority of railways in Canada and USA... Canada use to charge head tax against Chinese ethnic only... The word Chink and Ching chong are originated to discriminate the Qing Slaves, the first mass generated migrated to North America looking for survival... Asian do not make as big noise as black... Does not knowing the origin and meaning of this word is ignorant, not excuses... It is valve's responsibility to stop this whole bullshit going out of control. "Ching chong, Chinaman, Sitting on a wall. Along came a white man, and chopped his head off." ![[image loading]](https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2010/08/Capture5.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://images.asian-nation.org/anti-chinese-10.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IWZjSs_9h3o/UgBH4aEQg4I/AAAAAAAAHzc/5U9p7QuYLSA/s400/imageMain_16_802.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://philadelphiaencyclopedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/The-Great-Fear-of-the-Period.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080304-anti_CHinese.gif) Chinese exclusion Act in 1882 in US https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/chinese-exclusion-act/the reason is Asian history in the western has been under-represented, does not mean it does not happen. i can start a separate thread if necessary. ------------------- I didn't read the whole thing fully, but as a Chinese I can confirm that ching Chong itself has no meaning in Asia, it is a weak slur. The reason why it is offensive lies behind the fact that we know historically it has been used by westerners to degrade Chinese in the west, like in examples you put. Thus we equate that to being a disrespectful term. So maybe Chinese living in the west will be impacted, but Chinese in Asia don't really care about the term. You call/mock a black African a monkey like some do in Europe, and they're upset because you're associating them as an animal or a beast, or that you're mocking their appearance. You make a ching chong joke to a Chinese in Asia, we won't get upset over the word itself. We get upset because you decided to insult and disrespect us. And mainland Chinese are very proud people these days and think their time of being belittled is over.
I agree with your analysis of why there's a big hurrah in China over this issue, which wasn't seen with the MC thing in Russia (China moving up in the world, Russia not so much). At the same time, I think HolyPepsi explains well why ching chong is offensive and why it's important Kuku and Skem get at least some punishment as an example to others.
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Was busy with finals and projects in last few days so sorry for not keeping track of this thread. I want to thank everyone for their meaningful inputs and personal opinions. It's quite a surprise to see more than 100 replies.
I'm really glad to see Valve make things right at least for us in their latest announcement. In some of my replies discussion what might be a fair punishment, I purposed benching Kuku for the Chongqing Major only, and good to see Valve took the same measure, which would definitely serve as the justice needed for the Chinese community, while still making Kuku relevant to the scene.
To be honest there are still a lot of emotions underrepresented and consensuses yet to be reached on the crusade to mutual understanding in good terms. Valve's ruling might be an obstacle for many at the moment, but I believe if people in both communities could lift their bigotry and arrogance so they could listen to the genuine words of each other, this ruling won't be an obstacle for long.
I want to thank LiquidDota moderators for keeping this thread intact for the entire week. If LiquidDota needs anything from the Chinese forum under my moderation, which is NGA.CN Dota2 forum, feel free to reach me through PM. It's a favor I owed to LiquidDota. I will make necessary arrangements so my successors could continue to bring two communities together.
That's the cue to take my curtain call. Thank you all regardless of your hostility or hospitality. Raphael out.
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hey thanks so much for this post. I've been following the chinese reaction bits and pieces and your post clarified a lot of things, even things that made absolutely no sense.
I'm one of those "Singaporean guys" you mentioned in your post, which is why I was so super confused at the reaction of the Chinese community. The Chinese I know and are friends with aren't as petty as what is being portrayed right now and in fact, Chinese like you who have traveled and stayed aboard are much more matured than any other foreigners I've met who stayed overseas. It makes more sense that the anger was towards the lie than the racist remark which snowballed out of control.
I'd just like to really thank you for helping me have a much clearer picture of the entire situation and help preserve the impression I have of Chinese as a whole. It's unfortunate that this whole situation got blown out of proportion and caused multiple irreparable damages. It's a shame that your post won't be read by majority of the western community, which means the damage of how the community sees the Chinese would most likely be permanent.
C'est la vie. 谢谢你.我祝你一路顺风.
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Then why didn't they push the lying angle instead of the racism angle? Since the slight seems to be more on the fact that TnC and Kuku lied than the actual racism.
A major counter argument from the non-Chinese fanbase because there's been previous cases of racism by other players and none of them was met with a ban. They were simply fined, their orgs issue a statement/apology and that was it.
Second, if the problem was kuku's cover up, then why did the ban extend to Skem? He was punished quickly and accordingly. There was no coverup, yet he still gets dragged along with Kuku into triggering the govt response.
This is where many of us start to feel that the outcry is simply because it was racism towards the Chinese. Pro players and well known dota personalities have had racist slip ups over the years, but this is probably the first one that suddenly exploded out of control. Why?
If it's because of the cover up, why was Skem still dragged in?
If it's because of the word, then why did previous events never caused that big of a trigger? Why was bulldog overlooked and his stream is pretty damn racist with the "MingLee" that litter his twitch chat.
It's hard not to see it as being a biased response. "Racism is ok, except when it effects the Chinese".
That said, Valve gave their judgement, lets just move on. I'm hoping that no such issue will stem for TI9.
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-nothing of value was lost here-
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All I can say is, clearly, if your country does not have democracy, it should not host any events, due to political influence. Hence fuck china. Fuck all ching chong chinese plebs inside it. Just stop making DPC points event in begotten places ruled by dictators and communism. Whats next, TI North korea? jeez
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It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him.
Yeah except UC Berkeley lost in the court cases and has to pay the club College Republicans a fine, and revise their entire speaker policy and security policy as a result. So its not quite the same.
老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner.
Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents.
As for "lao wai" context is important. If you're telling someone how that person is a foreigner and you use the word "lao wai" then its fine. But the term "lao wai" gets casually used as a way to describe basically non-chinese in context way beyond them being just foreigners. Its used negatively a lot and you should be aware of this. The fact you don't think its used this way says a lot to me how you perceive Chinese usage of the world vs how it would be interpreted globally if people actually knew the context and circumstance. Lao wai continues to be used informally in negative context in many cases.
I see that you consider yourself very well educated but you cut certain things you're used to with some slack, like "lao wai" yet put other words like the "N-word" under a microscope to be broken down. I hope you can realize your bias.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:Show nested quote +老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents.
i know my parents, you don't. i know they aren't racist, and i know they don't use it as a negative term. they use it because that's simply what they learnt growing up.
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Ultimately, I am not all that mad at China because they/their government has acted this way in numerous legal and physical run-ins with SEA nations. That's par for the course. That doesn't stop me, a Filipino, from liking Chinese teams and players more than any other. I'm a Burning, Maybe, and Fy homer more than any other players.
I am extremely mad (and disappointed) however, at Valve's hypocrisy, which was basically the result of the Chinese community's pressure (and don't pretend that the major figures did not stoke the flames).
Solo's situation and Valve's resulting action was what I had expected from Valve. In fact, that was arguably much worse than this case because instead of a random racist remark at a pub, he actually matchfixed a game. Everyone who started out at TL knows how devastating this is to any sport, much less an esport.
In that case, Solo bet on the opposing team, intentionally lost, and when initially caught lied about what he did.
Valve's decision was solomonic for that case, and I laud them for it. They acknowledged the wrong and how hurtful the actions were to the scene, created a very strict anti-matchfixing rule that would be religiously enforced to future cases, but did not impose a penalty on Solo because there was no clear rule that he violated. It was a good illustration of the legal concept nullum crimen/poena sine lege - "no crime/punishment without law." This is a concept that has been generally accepted throughout legal systems in the world, especially democratic ones, because retroactively punishing behavior that was never covered by the legal system is inherently unfair.
So it's just really maddening to me to see them suddenly turn around and outright punish TNC and Kuku - including his teammates - for something that they had never imposed a ban and DPC point penalty for.
What giant hypocrites.
And yes, TNC and Kuku are idiots as well who deserve a punishment. Agree completely with that. But it doesn't change the fact that Valve quite clearly contradicted its old position that was quite fair, and in all likelihood at the behest of a segment of the community that brings in a lot of its revenue. And just LOL at their statement that TNC ignored its responsibility... so they should have kicked Kuku or used a stand in despite the absence of any ban whatsoever? That's what you call "effectively" a ban, without saying so.
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Feels like you're being petty, but that's just me.
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having posted in years, but no surprise all the low post counts starting to spread their bullshit
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老哥牛逼 不知道有没有微博账号让我关注一下
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Osaka27148 Posts
On December 05 2018 20:27 Doraemon wrote:
having posted in years, but no surprise all the low post counts starting to spread their bullshit
It is because this post got linked on reddit.
edit - as an aside, you are the recipient of my favorite mod message ever, so nice to see you sir!
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I'll address one specific thing from your well put insight.
I was watching that very game ignited the whole thing and immediately furious since that all chat didn't come with any context, which usually only served to be racist. The key opinion leaders (KOLs) in Chinese community were also immediately furious as many of them had oversea experience and knew how "chngchng" came around and so do I. To the Chinese community, this word is clearly racist, not only slur, not only pejorative, but straight out racist. In fact I cannot even find a worse racist remark to Chinese people than this one. Even though it might not be case for everybody for various reasons, and apparently not to the majority of /r/dota2, but it has been and will be the case for Chinese community.
What the chinese "community" needs to understand is that from a side of "the west" those words actually dont resonate with racism.
You need to understand that a lot of people have very few and even no interactions with chinese people in some parts of the world. If im perfectly honest i dont think i ever talked directly to a chinese person ever. So these sort of things ring empty for some, it's like saying "kung pao" is racist, some will raise an eyebrow and say "..The fuck?! You're kiddin' ".
In a good number of places in Europe at least, even kids when playing in kindergarden or whatever will basically say "chng chang chog ni no pao" and variations of that because, for people that have no interactions with chinese people , ironically, thats pretty much what chinese sounds and that succession of words mimics the meoldicity of chinese.
I mean for fucks sake, Rock-Papers-Scissors in german is ocasionally refered to Ching-Chang-Chong. People will call Chng Chng asians in general, without any sort of malice or atempt to insult.
Personally up untill this "drama" i wasnt aware that is considered "racist". The same way i had no idea "issei" is a deamening term twords japenese people untill i listened to Fort Minor - Kenji, luckly i never used it towards a chinese person since, as i mentioned, i have never interacted with one (maybe outside of buying some cheap plastic thingy).
So people needed to chill the fuck out and try and explain stuff.
Im not saying kuku or skem didn't know or something else, im talking in general.
Anyway, thanks again for the well explained take.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
Where in Germany is rock-paper-scissors referred to as ching-chang-chong? O_o
You have the standard Schere-Stein-Papier and Schnick-Schnack-Schnuck
I have never heard that one before...
And well I can tell you from my anecdotal experience of growing up in Germany as Asian that in the majority of cases ching-chong is used maliciously in order to mock you or provoke you.
How do people keep saying "Oh it's not really racist" when in fact it pretty much is THE term (besides "chink" in English and "Schlitzauge" in German) people go for in order to insult you based on your ethnicity.
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Hey man, nice write up. However, I really disliked your last point. Skem was with col for less than a week. To try to make a point that he said it because he was influenced by his teammates to say it is very much a stretch.
Also, I've never seen EE use those words like you say he has, surely you have an example or two you can share?
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Havent logged in to TL in years, but this thread stirred me the wrong way, so here we go. This is from a lamen united states pleb that loves his dota, is NOT racist in any kind, and generally a really good giving forward guy (self acclaimed, yeYEY!).
Its absolutely cringe seeing how the chinese people are in such a state of disapprobation of other asian races. I've played many games with voice chats, and when chinese speak, its always "#@% u burger boy", as im an american. I laugh my ass off because why get mad at words? Anyways, this isnt about me. What kuku said was childish, but he censored himself and said nothing vulgar. Im not defending anyone, BUT i am troubled the amount of backlash this has done. MC (iirc, he wished pain and suffering on the person) went far harder and everyone understood the nature of the comment, undoubtedly a mistake. We all forgave him, he wasnt banned in russia or talked to by vlad putin. Fact is that chinese "patriots" are really distant from how the world is right now, if they want kuku banned from CQ.
Im an american patriot too, but im also a human that can take a verbal aggresion without even blinking or losing sleep. Why? well, lets just say america has real racist issues and it has changed people. The Chinese scene was crushed by 2 words? Lol ok, you can keep your morals if they are going to melt in the summer when it gets heated (snowflake referrence). And dont tell me the chinese populous is accepting and forgiving on Malaysians, Thai's, Filipinos, and whomever else I forget. Because i've heard too many pubg lobbies and favoratism in dota teams towards full chinese squads.
So, I think we all need to drink some tea, coffee, or water, re-read what kuku said, and laugh at what this has all become. Hes almost half my age, and we're hanging him for saying 2 non vulgar wards. Guess ill travel to japan next time instead.
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On December 05 2018 18:22 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. i know my parents, you don't. i know they aren't racist, and i know they don't use it as a negative term. they use it because that's simply what they learnt growing up.
I don't know what gui zi is so I did a quick search:
"Guizi (Chinese: 鬼子; pinyin: guǐzi) is a Chinese slang term for foreigners, and has a long history of being used as a racist and deprecating insult."
I don't know your parents and I am sure they're not racist, but they are you using a racist term. Just because they learn the word growing up does not make it right to continue use. Like white folks who grew up in America learning the N-word growing up aren't allowed to continue to do so. Well, it's America, you are still allowed to say it but you will face consequences. Time has change and if you are stuck in your old ways using racist terms, you will be view as a racist. My parents use to give weird looks to my gay friends because they learn growing up that is wrong but eventually understood that it is now okay. I hope you get what I am trying to say.
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On December 06 2018 01:39 Forgottenfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 18:22 ahswtini wrote:On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. i know my parents, you don't. i know they aren't racist, and i know they don't use it as a negative term. they use it because that's simply what they learnt growing up. I don't know what gui zi is so I did a quick search: "Guizi (Chinese: 鬼子; pinyin: guǐzi) is a Chinese slang term for foreigners, and has a long history of being used as a racist and deprecating insult." I don't know your parents and I am sure they're not racist, but they are you using a racist term. Just because they learn the word growing up does not make it right to continue use. Like white folks who grew up in America learning the N-word growing up aren't allowed to continue to do so. Well, it's America, you are still allowed to say it but you will face consequences. Time has change and if you are stuck in your old ways using racist terms, you will be view as a racist. My parents use to give weird looks to my gay friends because they learn growing up that is wrong but eventually understood that it is now okay. I hope you get what I am trying to say.
guizi it is definitely a discriminative slur in Chinese and would consider inappropriate to use publicly. the word has a long history since China has been the warzone that suffers foreign invasion for over a century...
to put in context it is very silmiar to the word "peckerwood" where southern african slaves use to decribe poor white people. the word is somewhat mildly offensive... but should not being proud of.
the word nigger is extremely offensive to compare to "peckerwood" because black people were being exploited and under-represented. Same goes how German do not call Jewish people kike any more today.
English uses word "frogs" to describe French, is considered less offensive than the N-word .. since two cultures has somewhat complicated but "equivalent" times..
"Guizi" or "peckerwood" are used by "victims" to discriminate "offenders" ... are less offensive than "frogs" but indeed are still racial slurs.
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EPT
