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On December 06 2018 00:29 ShiaoPi wrote:
Where in Germany is rock-paper-scissors referred to as ching-chang-chong? O_o
You have the standard Schere-Stein-Papier and Schnick-Schnack-Schnuck
I have never heard that one before...
And well I can tell you from my anecdotal experience of growing up in Germany as Asian that in the majority of cases ching-chong is used maliciously in order to mock you or provoke you.
How do people keep saying "Oh it's not really racist" when in fact it pretty much is THE term (besides "chink" in English and "Schlitzauge" in German) people go for in order to insult you based on your ethnicity.
i know that it has been a term that was "commonly" used by kids in the 90s. at least thats what i remember since i grew up near munich. but i havent heard the term since my days in primary/elementary school...
because for a lot of people it doesnt carry the same stigma of other racist remarks like the n-word. it could be coincidence but i think its pretty interesting that some of the posters in the "valve bans kuku" thread that carry the very sentiment you mention are germans (according to their accounts)
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On December 06 2018 04:31 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 00:29 ShiaoPi wrote:
Where in Germany is rock-paper-scissors referred to as ching-chang-chong? O_o
You have the standard Schere-Stein-Papier and Schnick-Schnack-Schnuck
I have never heard that one before...
And well I can tell you from my anecdotal experience of growing up in Germany as Asian that in the majority of cases ching-chong is used maliciously in order to mock you or provoke you.
How do people keep saying "Oh it's not really racist" when in fact it pretty much is THE term (besides "chink" in English and "Schlitzauge" in German) people go for in order to insult you based on your ethnicity. i know that it has been a term that was "commonly" used by kids in the 90s. at least thats what i remember since i grew up near munich. but i havent heard the term since my days in primary/elementary school... because for a lot of people it doesnt carry the same stigma of other racist remarks like the n-word. it could be coincidence but i think its pretty interesting that some of the posters in the "valve bans kuku" thread that carry the very sentiment you mention are germans (according to their accounts)
i have noticed the same... i dont think chinese will get offended by german kindergardens...
the chinese mandrian onomatapoeia "nei-ger" is equivalent to "hmmm.." or "eh..." and frequently used in oral languages between sentences... which sounds excatly like "nigger" pronounced in English... this incidence is quite common in north america.. people just gave a good laugh of it..
chingchong is not the same, i have wrote a lengthy description earlier, the word came with a serious history of slavery, exploration and racism of asian culture in north america... the chinese history to build rail ways is a part of Canadian high school curriculum, not a part of USA... it is somewhat equivalent to the word nigger to describe Chinese emigrants fleed from Qing dynasty to new england, with pony tails (chink is the word to describe the appearance and ching chong is used to describe the language). the word carries 0 positive meaning.
and i am more than certain kuku used this word specifically to discriminate (not hatre, but to discriminate) Chinese.. it happened right after skem's incidence, and raven (ex tnc player) created a team "ching Chong" right after this for the battle cup.
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As far as my own experience growing up as Chinese Canadian and even according to the original Chinese post, the historical meaning of the word is completely lost and I haven't yet seen anyone get hurt over the word itself. The way ChingChong is used in recent times is to make fun of the intonation of the language and honestly i think it's the general accepted meaning of the word even by the Eastern audience.
Even from the wikipedia linked ChingChong is used to make fun of the language, I don't see ChingChong used or denoted as inherently expressing another race as inferior. ChingChong was not the problem in that poem just like the word chopped or white man or tail is not the problem in the poem. To associate ChingChong is the same as C!@#k and N!@#$r is mindbogglingly dumb mistake. As the other two has literal practical meaning of an inferior race while ChingChong has no such meaning at it's core. I really disagree that you are looking at the word from the historical perspective as it's obsolete and not even clearly defined to be more racist than what it means today which is mocking but not racist in an of itself.
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I look at ChingChong is a made up word that puts the other person at unease due to it's joking nature, slight connection to that person's culture, and it's ambiguous definition. It could be an insult, a greeting, an agreement, a disagreement, the possibility is endless and there lie in the problem and why there was so many conflicting opinion from Chinese/West.
I would be compare ChingChong with Dumpling foot, or BurritoHand. Though these two things aren't inherently racist and are made up just now. If you were to walk up to random person of the culture and say that to them even with a positive connotation (with the intention of salutation in mind), they would be first confused and then probably anxious if not offended due to human nature to assume the worst. This is the exact way the Chinese Scene reacted.
Applying this to the current case, the Chinese Scene are experiencing an word that could mean anything, is connected to their culture, and is coming from someone they don't know. This is a strange situation and inherently places stress on the recipient on what it could mean. This stress is further enhanced by any of the culture's bias (education/ films/propaganda embellished but based on real history of Century of shame+Japan's invasion). At the end the natural conclusion is the Chinese Scene would perceive the word through the worst lens even if it's not coming from a racist place.
To summarize, any ambiguous word spoken by a stranger that connects to the listener's culture spoken without context will inevitably invite disaster, even though the word may not be inherently offensive or been used with bad intent.
To the Chinese scene, you're angry and your anger is not to be denied. I would however like to point out why that could be the result even if the initial intent of skem/kuku is not racist or derogatory and therefore why some of our reluctance to agree with your decisions. To the Western audience, I hope this helps you understand why the Chinese scene has reacted in this way even if ChingChong is not racist, and why you should avoid racial words like these even if they aren't offensive to you or you didn't mean it in a racist way.
In the end I don't think the ban was justified, but since Valve has taken to bear the cross for the decision so I'll leave it at that.
Let's let the rift between the two scene heals and we can go back to memeing together. As much as we hate your shitty ass ACE orgs destoryed Wings and how you guys handled some of the past majors, as players I think we all just enjoy Dota and I do feel some genuine connection through our mutual love (and hatred) of this amazing game. We honestly have so much to connect on it's hoestly dumb that we're so focused this incident instead of our love for the game.
Thank you for reading and goodluck to your teams at Chong Qing Major
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On December 06 2018 03:58 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 01:39 Forgottenfrog wrote:On December 05 2018 18:22 ahswtini wrote:On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. i know my parents, you don't. i know they aren't racist, and i know they don't use it as a negative term. they use it because that's simply what they learnt growing up. I don't know what gui zi is so I did a quick search: "Guizi (Chinese: 鬼子; pinyin: guǐzi) is a Chinese slang term for foreigners, and has a long history of being used as a racist and deprecating insult." I don't know your parents and I am sure they're not racist, but they are you using a racist term. Just because they learn the word growing up does not make it right to continue use. Like white folks who grew up in America learning the N-word growing up aren't allowed to continue to do so. Well, it's America, you are still allowed to say it but you will face consequences. Time has change and if you are stuck in your old ways using racist terms, you will be view as a racist. My parents use to give weird looks to my gay friends because they learn growing up that is wrong but eventually understood that it is now okay. I hope you get what I am trying to say. guizi it is definitely a discriminative slur in Chinese and would consider inappropriate to use publicly. the word has a long history since China has been the warzone that suffers foreign invasion for over a century... to put in context it is very silmiar to the word "peckerwood" where southern african slaves use to decribe poor white people. the word is somewhat mildly offensive... but should not being proud of. the word nigger is extremely offensive to compare to "peckerwood" because black people were being exploited and under-represented. Same goes how German do not call Jewish people kike any more today. English uses word "frogs" to describe French, is considered less offensive than the N-word .. since two cultures has somewhat complicated but "equivalent" times.. "Guizi" or "peckerwood" are used by "victims" to discriminate "offenders" ... are less offensive than "frogs" but indeed are still racial slurs.
My point is that "Just because you learn a word growing up, does not make it right to continue using it." A better example is myself growing up using the phrase "man, that's gay" when something bad happens. I learn that it's not right so I stop using it.
As you pointed out Guizi is offensive so we should educate people to use another term.
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On December 07 2018 01:27 Forgottenfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 03:58 HolyPepsi wrote:On December 06 2018 01:39 Forgottenfrog wrote:On December 05 2018 18:22 ahswtini wrote:On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. i know my parents, you don't. i know they aren't racist, and i know they don't use it as a negative term. they use it because that's simply what they learnt growing up. I don't know what gui zi is so I did a quick search: "Guizi (Chinese: 鬼子; pinyin: guǐzi) is a Chinese slang term for foreigners, and has a long history of being used as a racist and deprecating insult." I don't know your parents and I am sure they're not racist, but they are you using a racist term. Just because they learn the word growing up does not make it right to continue use. Like white folks who grew up in America learning the N-word growing up aren't allowed to continue to do so. Well, it's America, you are still allowed to say it but you will face consequences. Time has change and if you are stuck in your old ways using racist terms, you will be view as a racist. My parents use to give weird looks to my gay friends because they learn growing up that is wrong but eventually understood that it is now okay. I hope you get what I am trying to say. guizi it is definitely a discriminative slur in Chinese and would consider inappropriate to use publicly. the word has a long history since China has been the warzone that suffers foreign invasion for over a century... to put in context it is very silmiar to the word "peckerwood" where southern african slaves use to decribe poor white people. the word is somewhat mildly offensive... but should not being proud of. the word nigger is extremely offensive to compare to "peckerwood" because black people were being exploited and under-represented. Same goes how German do not call Jewish people kike any more today. English uses word "frogs" to describe French, is considered less offensive than the N-word .. since two cultures has somewhat complicated but "equivalent" times.. "Guizi" or "peckerwood" are used by "victims" to discriminate "offenders" ... are less offensive than "frogs" but indeed are still racial slurs. My point is that "Just because you learn a word growing up, does not make it right to continue using it." A better example is myself growing up using the phrase "man, that's gay" when something bad happens. I learn that it's not right so I stop using it. As you pointed out Guizi is offensive so we should educate people to use another term.
absolutely
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On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:Show nested quote +It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him. Yeah except UC Berkeley lost in the court cases and has to pay the club College Republicans a fine, and revise their entire speaker policy and security policy as a result. So its not quite the same. Show nested quote +老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. As for "lao wai" context is important. If you're telling someone how that person is a foreigner and you use the word "lao wai" then its fine. But the term "lao wai" gets casually used as a way to describe basically non-chinese in context way beyond them being just foreigners. Its used negatively a lot and you should be aware of this. The fact you don't think its used this way says a lot to me how you perceive Chinese usage of the world vs how it would be interpreted globally if people actually knew the context and circumstance. Lao wai continues to be used informally in negative context in many cases. I see that you consider yourself very well educated but you cut certain things you're used to with some slack, like "lao wai" yet put other words like the "N-word" under a microscope to be broken down. I hope you can realize your bias.
So the word "lao wai" which was intended be a friendly word is now interpreted as an insult? I guess this chingchong incident is inevitable.
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On December 07 2018 03:05 deathonline wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him. Yeah except UC Berkeley lost in the court cases and has to pay the club College Republicans a fine, and revise their entire speaker policy and security policy as a result. So its not quite the same. 老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. As for "lao wai" context is important. If you're telling someone how that person is a foreigner and you use the word "lao wai" then its fine. But the term "lao wai" gets casually used as a way to describe basically non-chinese in context way beyond them being just foreigners. Its used negatively a lot and you should be aware of this. The fact you don't think its used this way says a lot to me how you perceive Chinese usage of the world vs how it would be interpreted globally if people actually knew the context and circumstance. Lao wai continues to be used informally in negative context in many cases. I see that you consider yourself very well educated but you cut certain things you're used to with some slack, like "lao wai" yet put other words like the "N-word" under a microscope to be broken down. I hope you can realize your bias. So the word "lao wai" which was intended be a friendly word is now interpreted as an insult? I guess this chingchong incident is inevitable.
"lao wai" is friendly. "gui zi" is not so friendly 
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EPT
