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On February 15 2018 05:50 andyrau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2018 05:34 PhoenixVoid wrote:On February 15 2018 05:29 andyrau wrote:
I just read through merlini's post and everything he said was stuff that I had deliberated two or three years ago, right down to the parents to the comparison with peers to the mortgage and kids
hope he does well cause that shit weighs heavy on you I think there is a lot of space to talk about the talents behind every e-sport, because they're the hidden workhorses that are often neglected. Everyone talks big about the prize pools and salaries of the players, but the talents are often so precariously employed or paid it's concerning. The sacrifices they make, or the fear that they won't transition out of casting or creating content once their choice of game dies out, and if they don't have back-ups or transferable life skills to another career. yea I always catch myself wondering about their futures not only for casters, but for people that stream say they're crippled by carpal tunnel at age 45 that prevents them from streaming every day wtf do you do at that point? they're at least 20 years from retirement, and they're not popular enough to have substantial savings. you're basically fucked I guess you could move to a country where cost of living is super low like Italy or some shit
I wonder about this a lot for just about everyone in the scene, up to and including pros with $1 million+ in earnings.
It's hard to retire in America with that money if you're in your 20s...and what do you do when people move on? It's a stressful thought lol.
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I mean, you're talking about 20-something year old men that are pulling six figures at the top of the spectrum. Are you honestly worried about them and their futures? It isn't like going to school for something is forbidden once you're 30, nor that the responsibility of building and maintaining a brand is a useless skillset otherwise...
Sure its a grim portrait if they full on Mike Tyson it, but that's grim regardless of the circumstances.
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Dota already has the second longest longevity in esports (If you count cs 1.6/csgo as one group). It'll probably be fine, though it may not keep growing for forever.
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On February 15 2018 06:33 Fleetfeet wrote:
I mean, you're talking about 20-something year old men that are pulling six figures at the top of the spectrum. Are you honestly worried about them and their futures? It isn't like going to school for something is forbidden once you're 30, nor that the responsibility of building and maintaining a brand is a useless skillset otherwise...
Sure its a grim portrait if they full on Mike Tyson it, but that's grim regardless of the circumstances.
I mean it's easy to get used to a lifestyle that's fully sustainable (and lets you save!) while you're making a healthy income. It's not hard for me to imagine folks really struggling when they go back to school at 30 to work some 9-5 job that pays a third of what they used to make (and it's not hard to imagine that being frustrating)
Maybe I'm over thinking this for top-tier esports figures that are making a lot (now at least) but I definitely don't think I am for randos who are pursuing the dream but hadn't had a big windfall.
Also I read the merlini reddit thread for a bit and man reddit is bad lol
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Yeah I try imagine that when I think like "What is MC from Sc2 doing now" or something. Mostly its hard to picture people we see as celebrities doing dayjobs. Like Ayesee selling people coffee "GREETINGS COFFEE FANS!" lmao
I think the core of it is that you learn hard work in the process of becoming a streamer, and hard work is a goddamn excellent transferrable skill.
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On February 15 2018 06:55 Fleetfeet wrote:
Yeah I try imagine that when I think like "What is MC from Sc2 doing now" or something. Mostly its hard to picture people we see as celebrities doing dayjobs
Yeah I was thinking of BW pros but MC is a good example too
Like how are they doing? I don't think it's hard to imagine him working a dayjob necessarily, but like... he probably wouldn't get paid as much, and he wouldn't be one of the best people in the world at his job, and...
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On February 15 2018 06:20 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2018 05:56 andyrau wrote:
? you could live pretty decently on 2k euro a month And that should be significantly above average wage in Italy.. Of course you can live off it. But there's not much room for saving or eating out, vacationing, you know, that life stuff. Maybe having a nice flat or a car. Children not to speak of. Unless you appreciate living with your parents 
you're missing the point
On February 15 2018 06:33 Fleetfeet wrote:
I mean, you're talking about 20-something year old men that are pulling six figures at the top of the spectrum. Are you honestly worried about them and their futures? It isn't like going to school for something is forbidden once you're 30, nor that the responsibility of building and maintaining a brand is a useless skillset otherwise...
it only lasts so long
take the most generous scenario:
if dota lasts another 10 years, and they're competitive for another 10 years
they come out on top with 2m total over the course of their gaming career
at this point they're in their early to mid 30s with 'video game champion' on their resume
if they're used to living at a given standard, would they be able to dial it back? or would they have to suck it up and either stream/do a regular 9-5 job (if they're lucky enough to get hired) for a fraction of what they were making before?
and if they stream, how long is that going to last?
you need to fill that 30 year gap to retirement with something, and i'm not sure if any of them have the answer
shroud was pretty pragmatic about the entire thing, he pretty much resigned himself to being popular for a short period of time and he said he's pretty much dumped all of the donations into the stock market
i guess he's always been about the high risk high reward type thing
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To be fair Shroud can make enough money in the next 5 years to legitimately retire even if he only did low risk investing. He's easily pulling in 2-3 million a year. With that being said he's in the top 0.01% of the top 1% when it comes to streamers 
Anyway streamers and esports pros are in a completely different category imo. The transition to real life for a streamer is going to be WAY easier than it would be for a pro player (not counting pro players that also stream like BSJ, etc).
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Streaming and youtube have their own problems with advertisers being unhappy with the state of Google/Facebooks control over where ads are shown. Like one of the largest consumer goods companies in the world threatening to pull all their ads from both services due to customer feedback issues.
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On February 15 2018 07:07 andyrau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2018 06:20 Artisreal wrote:On February 15 2018 05:56 andyrau wrote:
? you could live pretty decently on 2k euro a month And that should be significantly above average wage in Italy.. Of course you can live off it. But there's not much room for saving or eating out, vacationing, you know, that life stuff. Maybe having a nice flat or a car. Children not to speak of. Unless you appreciate living with your parents you're missing the point Show nested quote +On February 15 2018 06:33 Fleetfeet wrote:
I mean, you're talking about 20-something year old men that are pulling six figures at the top of the spectrum. Are you honestly worried about them and their futures? It isn't like going to school for something is forbidden once you're 30, nor that the responsibility of building and maintaining a brand is a useless skillset otherwise... it only lasts so long take the most generous scenario: if dota lasts another 10 years, and they're competitive for another 10 years they come out on top with 2m total over the course of their gaming career at this point they're in their early to mid 30s with 'video game champion' on their resume if they're used to living at a given standard, would they be able to dial it back? or would they have to suck it up and either stream/do a regular 9-5 job (if they're lucky enough to get hired) for a fraction of what they were making before? and if they stream, how long is that going to last? you need to fill that 30 year gap to retirement with something, and i'm not sure if any of them have the answer shroud was pretty pragmatic about the entire thing, he pretty much resigned himself to being popular for a short period of time and he said he's pretty much dumped all of the donations into the stock market i guess he's always been about the high risk high reward type thing
Isn't that just the same scenario as athletes have? Some end up wasting whatever money they have very quickly and have difficulty, some end up doing really well outside of their sport too, some end up just living somewhat regular lives. Not sure how many athletes end up regretting their career choice in general, but I'd guess many look back on it fondly even if their future life isn't the most glamorous. Not many people truly 100% apply themselves in the pursuit of being the best at something
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On February 15 2018 07:22 Plansix wrote:
Streaming and youtube have their own problems with advertisers being unhappy with the state of Google/Facebooks control over where ads are shown.
Ads don't matter that much for streamers.
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On February 15 2018 07:23 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2018 07:22 Plansix wrote:
Streaming and youtube have their own problems with advertisers being unhappy with the state of Google/Facebooks control over where ads are shown. Ads don't matter that much for streamers.
Depends on the streamer and the service. They matter to Twitch a lot and Amazon by extension.
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On February 15 2018 07:22 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2018 07:07 andyrau wrote:On February 15 2018 06:20 Artisreal wrote:On February 15 2018 05:56 andyrau wrote:
? you could live pretty decently on 2k euro a month And that should be significantly above average wage in Italy.. Of course you can live off it. But there's not much room for saving or eating out, vacationing, you know, that life stuff. Maybe having a nice flat or a car. Children not to speak of. Unless you appreciate living with your parents you're missing the point On February 15 2018 06:33 Fleetfeet wrote:
I mean, you're talking about 20-something year old men that are pulling six figures at the top of the spectrum. Are you honestly worried about them and their futures? It isn't like going to school for something is forbidden once you're 30, nor that the responsibility of building and maintaining a brand is a useless skillset otherwise... it only lasts so long take the most generous scenario: if dota lasts another 10 years, and they're competitive for another 10 years they come out on top with 2m total over the course of their gaming career at this point they're in their early to mid 30s with 'video game champion' on their resume if they're used to living at a given standard, would they be able to dial it back? or would they have to suck it up and either stream/do a regular 9-5 job (if they're lucky enough to get hired) for a fraction of what they were making before? and if they stream, how long is that going to last? you need to fill that 30 year gap to retirement with something, and i'm not sure if any of them have the answer shroud was pretty pragmatic about the entire thing, he pretty much resigned himself to being popular for a short period of time and he said he's pretty much dumped all of the donations into the stock market i guess he's always been about the high risk high reward type thing Isn't that just the same scenario as athletes have? Some end up wasting whatever money they have very quickly and have difficulty, some end up doing really well outside of their sport too, some end up just living somewhat regular lives. Not sure how many athletes end up regretting their career choice in general, but I'd guess many look back on it fondly even if their future life isn't the most glamorous. Not many people truly 100% apply themselves in the pursuit of being the best at something
I think one difference between athletes and esports people is that there are established career paths after the athletes retire from their sport they can go down, being analysts, coaching, mentorship programs, brand stuff, etc. But I don't know if there's been the same sort of foundation for esports. But you are right in saying that's a parallel.
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That foundation definitely exists in esports. It's not as concrete as of yet, but tons of esports athletes have secured well paying jobs in the scene after they stopped playing competitively. It's not an option for every player ofc, but it isn't in regular sports either.
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The concern over transferable skills is real. Esports has not made the transition to being a long term life plan and there isn't really a market for anything learn while you casting/playing. One of the things unionization did for real sports was give players enough control to assure their sports careers were viable long term and ask for enough money to survive past their retirement. And because the career was viable long term an industry of sports training, coaching and feeder leagues formed around professional sports.
And all of things I just talked about above are things no video game publishing company should want to form around their IP that they control. Which is why it will likely never happen.
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The road to the top in esports is also quite different. There's no push to get an education like there is in regular sports. Also it's not like Basketball/Football/whatever players are working 10-15 hours a day in order to obtain greatness. Esports is really a massive grind and unfortunately it occurs during what should be your best years 
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On February 15 2018 07:22 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2018 07:07 andyrau wrote:On February 15 2018 06:20 Artisreal wrote:On February 15 2018 05:56 andyrau wrote:
? you could live pretty decently on 2k euro a month And that should be significantly above average wage in Italy.. Of course you can live off it. But there's not much room for saving or eating out, vacationing, you know, that life stuff. Maybe having a nice flat or a car. Children not to speak of. Unless you appreciate living with your parents you're missing the point On February 15 2018 06:33 Fleetfeet wrote:
I mean, you're talking about 20-something year old men that are pulling six figures at the top of the spectrum. Are you honestly worried about them and their futures? It isn't like going to school for something is forbidden once you're 30, nor that the responsibility of building and maintaining a brand is a useless skillset otherwise... it only lasts so long take the most generous scenario: if dota lasts another 10 years, and they're competitive for another 10 years they come out on top with 2m total over the course of their gaming career at this point they're in their early to mid 30s with 'video game champion' on their resume if they're used to living at a given standard, would they be able to dial it back? or would they have to suck it up and either stream/do a regular 9-5 job (if they're lucky enough to get hired) for a fraction of what they were making before? and if they stream, how long is that going to last? you need to fill that 30 year gap to retirement with something, and i'm not sure if any of them have the answer shroud was pretty pragmatic about the entire thing, he pretty much resigned himself to being popular for a short period of time and he said he's pretty much dumped all of the donations into the stock market i guess he's always been about the high risk high reward type thing Isn't that just the same scenario as athletes have? Some end up wasting whatever money they have very quickly and have difficulty, some end up doing really well outside of their sport too, some end up just living somewhat regular lives. Not sure how many athletes end up regretting their career choice in general, but I'd guess many look back on it fondly even if their future life isn't the most glamorous. Not many people truly 100% apply themselves in the pursuit of being the best at something
esports are still not sports though
there are lots of outs for regular sports - team coaching, fitness trainer, pt trainer, commentator, etc.
not so many outs for esports - there's little translatable skill to everyday jobs
On February 15 2018 07:54 TheEmulator wrote:The road to the top in esports is also quite different. There's no push to get an education like there is in regular sports. Also it's not like Basketball/Football/whatever players are working 10-15 hours a day in order to obtain greatness. Esports is really a massive grind and unfortunately it occurs during what should be your best years
I don't think this is fair, a lot of atheletes can easily put in as many hours
training, team practice, reviewing strategy, watching footage, etc can easily consume 10 hours a day
as much as I dislike Kobe he's a product of exemplary work ethic
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In the US/CAN at least, there are also undergraduate programs that cater towards the study of sports, like nutrition/exercise science/kin/business. This means a lot of athletes that do an undergrad (which is most of them because of scholarships and recruitment) can build upon what they learned as an athlete with a variety of options after they retire.
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On February 15 2018 08:18 andyrau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2018 07:22 spudde123 wrote:On February 15 2018 07:07 andyrau wrote:On February 15 2018 06:20 Artisreal wrote:On February 15 2018 05:56 andyrau wrote:
? you could live pretty decently on 2k euro a month And that should be significantly above average wage in Italy.. Of course you can live off it. But there's not much room for saving or eating out, vacationing, you know, that life stuff. Maybe having a nice flat or a car. Children not to speak of. Unless you appreciate living with your parents you're missing the point On February 15 2018 06:33 Fleetfeet wrote:
I mean, you're talking about 20-something year old men that are pulling six figures at the top of the spectrum. Are you honestly worried about them and their futures? It isn't like going to school for something is forbidden once you're 30, nor that the responsibility of building and maintaining a brand is a useless skillset otherwise... it only lasts so long take the most generous scenario: if dota lasts another 10 years, and they're competitive for another 10 years they come out on top with 2m total over the course of their gaming career at this point they're in their early to mid 30s with 'video game champion' on their resume if they're used to living at a given standard, would they be able to dial it back? or would they have to suck it up and either stream/do a regular 9-5 job (if they're lucky enough to get hired) for a fraction of what they were making before? and if they stream, how long is that going to last? you need to fill that 30 year gap to retirement with something, and i'm not sure if any of them have the answer shroud was pretty pragmatic about the entire thing, he pretty much resigned himself to being popular for a short period of time and he said he's pretty much dumped all of the donations into the stock market i guess he's always been about the high risk high reward type thing Isn't that just the same scenario as athletes have? Some end up wasting whatever money they have very quickly and have difficulty, some end up doing really well outside of their sport too, some end up just living somewhat regular lives. Not sure how many athletes end up regretting their career choice in general, but I'd guess many look back on it fondly even if their future life isn't the most glamorous. Not many people truly 100% apply themselves in the pursuit of being the best at something esports are still not sports though there are lots of outs for regular sports - team coaching, fitness trainer, pt trainer, commentator, etc. not so many outs for esports - there's little translatable skill to everyday jobs Show nested quote +On February 15 2018 07:54 TheEmulator wrote:The road to the top in esports is also quite different. There's no push to get an education like there is in regular sports. Also it's not like Basketball/Football/whatever players are working 10-15 hours a day in order to obtain greatness. Esports is really a massive grind and unfortunately it occurs during what should be your best years I don't think this is fair, a lot of atheletes can easily put in as many hours training, team practice, reviewing strategy, watching footage, etc can easily consume 10 hours a day as much as I dislike Kobe he's a product of exemplary work ethic
As a pro maybe. I was talking about the road to going pro. Not a lot of highschool basketball players are putting in 10-15 hours a day. I played sports at the University level myself and I've never put more than 4-5 hours a day into any sport. I've trained with people who eventually went on to become Olympians, and they definitely had the time to live normal lives and excel at their studies. On the other hand if you're some 18 year old that wants to play in the OWL it's a different story.
edit: I should also clarify I'm not comparing work ethic. Sports athletes train at a really high intensity so it would make sense that they put in less hours on avg. I'm just saying esports promotes this insane atmosphere where people make really dumb decisions. A pro athlete drops out of University when the chance to go pro presents itself, whereas you see people in esports dropping out of HS/University just to start the grind to become a pro.
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I co/owned and ran a business when I was 23-26. I ran into life problems that made that not possible.
I now literally work at a starbucks making -maybe- a quarter of what I used to make. It's been almost 3 years since I started working at a starbucks, and I haven't quit because it's actually so fucking comfy.
The non-transferrable skills debate and financially sustainable life thing... I lived through that. Accepting that what you used to do is no longer a thing you can do wasn't anywhere near as hard as I thought it would be, nor was adjusting my lifestyle to meet my means.
The parts that I don't relate to on a personal level is being a celebrity. Otherwise, its actually freeing to realize you don't need to work your ass off as hard as you did and stress until it breaks you. You can slow your life down, focus on things that are important to you on a personal level, and actually take the time to enjoy stuff.
If you're suddenly 35 and have been fully irresponsible with your early career years then sure you're in trouble, but that's true regardless. Otherwise they'd probably be in a situation like I am, where I could afford to go to school if I wanted to and have a ton of freedom to further explore who I am and what I want to be when I grow up. And I turn 30 in a few months.
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EPT
