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On September 26 2014 01:06 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. Holy shit can we stop with this idiotic crap already. We have no idea how it will work out. 0. No one here has played a game of this or seen a pro game of it. Meanwhile on the other side they have a full fucking team of balance testers that have worked on this. In simpler terms. We have no way of knowing what will actually happen. Stop assuming you do because all everyone is throwing around are ridiculous scenarios that have almost 0 basis in reality. It has probably been adjusted 100+ times already. And if it needs still further adjustment it will get it. But stop pretending like you understand the change when you haven't even played a game with it yet.
Their "full fucking team of balance testers" weren't able to catch onto Faceless Void cancer, if you want an example. They weren't even able to figure out that there might be a tiiiiiiny problem with Earth Spirit. Hell, they couldn't even think of using Ghost Scepter on Huskar. Where's your faith in them coming from?
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On September 26 2014 01:14 Plansix wrote:
The most powerful part of that with CM is that she is "off map" when she is doing this, which means she could be AFK farming or setting up a gank on whatever lane. It was one of the things that made her so good in the past. And with the new ways to set up off lane ganks, I am excited to play CM.
And I know ancients don't have auras, but nero book, vlads and everything else does. I am just dreaming of the most messed up, late game chen I can think of.
Oh no, not the CM ganks!!!
Just kidding. It's a good buff to her. Nice to see the hero getting improved. I like it when other people play her and I get infinite mana.
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Tebellong44238 Posts
U do actually do less dmg to heroes at levels 1 and 2 of frostbite though, which is pretty unfortunate
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Who has time to be dealing damage to heroes when you could be farming up a Midas?
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On September 26 2014 01:16 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:06 LeLoup wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. Holy shit can we stop with this idiotic crap already. We have no idea how it will work out. 0. No one here has played a game of this or seen a pro game of it. Meanwhile on the other side they have a full fucking team of balance testers that have worked on this. In simpler terms. We have no way of knowing what will actually happen. Stop assuming you do because all everyone is throwing around are ridiculous scenarios that have almost 0 basis in reality. It has probably been adjusted 100+ times already. And if it needs still further adjustment it will get it. But stop pretending like you understand the change when you haven't even played a game with it yet. Their "full fucking team of balance testers" weren't able to catch onto Faceless Void cancer, if you want an example. They weren't even able to figure out that there might be a tiiiiiiny problem with Earth Spirit. Hell, they couldn't even think of using Ghost Scepter on Huskar. Where's your faith in them coming from?
Plz, it took forever for the pro scene to find the cancer that was void. And even if they didn't catch it, it still doesn't give you magic powers to predict the outcome of the complex thing that is dota after the changes. No one has that power.
Edit: CM ganks are legit. She has one of the best roots in the game and she can back that up with an AOE slow. Set her up with ES and you can bring the fear(and bonus mana for ES)
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United States15275 Posts
On September 26 2014 01:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:16 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:06 LeLoup wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. Holy shit can we stop with this idiotic crap already. We have no idea how it will work out. 0. No one here has played a game of this or seen a pro game of it. Meanwhile on the other side they have a full fucking team of balance testers that have worked on this. In simpler terms. We have no way of knowing what will actually happen. Stop assuming you do because all everyone is throwing around are ridiculous scenarios that have almost 0 basis in reality. It has probably been adjusted 100+ times already. And if it needs still further adjustment it will get it. But stop pretending like you understand the change when you haven't even played a game with it yet. Their "full fucking team of balance testers" weren't able to catch onto Faceless Void cancer, if you want an example. They weren't even able to figure out that there might be a tiiiiiiny problem with Earth Spirit. Hell, they couldn't even think of using Ghost Scepter on Huskar. Where's your faith in them coming from? Plz, it took forever for the pro scene to find the cancer that was void. And even if they didn't catch it, it still doesn't give you magic powers to predict the outcome of the complex thing that is dota after the changes. No one has that power.
Key word being the "pro scene", which was pretty much EG and Eternal Envy prior to 6.81. Void players were already starting to cringe when they read the 6.80 changes.
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On September 26 2014 00:35 Plansix wrote:
All buffs to CM are awesome. The change in the way the damage is applied to her snare makes it do a little more damage to creeps, which means better farming. And she is one of my favorite heroes because she can get so much done out of sight of the enemy, always bringing the fear.
Big satyr should probably die to level 1 frostbite + autos during frostbite instead of needing 3 after frostbite expires! That will actually be pretty nice
@Snoman: frostbite already did a quite a bit of damage to heroes at level 1 anyway, and by the time you get it level 2 the damage isn't really the important part anyway
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United States15275 Posts
On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through.
That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes.
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On September 26 2014 01:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:20 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2014 01:16 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:06 LeLoup wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. Holy shit can we stop with this idiotic crap already. We have no idea how it will work out. 0. No one here has played a game of this or seen a pro game of it. Meanwhile on the other side they have a full fucking team of balance testers that have worked on this. In simpler terms. We have no way of knowing what will actually happen. Stop assuming you do because all everyone is throwing around are ridiculous scenarios that have almost 0 basis in reality. It has probably been adjusted 100+ times already. And if it needs still further adjustment it will get it. But stop pretending like you understand the change when you haven't even played a game with it yet. Their "full fucking team of balance testers" weren't able to catch onto Faceless Void cancer, if you want an example. They weren't even able to figure out that there might be a tiiiiiiny problem with Earth Spirit. Hell, they couldn't even think of using Ghost Scepter on Huskar. Where's your faith in them coming from? Plz, it took forever for the pro scene to find the cancer that was void. And even if they didn't catch it, it still doesn't give you magic powers to predict the outcome of the complex thing that is dota after the changes. No one has that power. Key word being the "pro scene", which was pretty much EG and Eternal Envy prior to 6.81. Void players were already starting to cringe when they read the 6.80 changes.
My point still stands that no one in this thread has the ability to figure out how these changes will effect the meta game and the way people play. It might change nothing or only make fighting over towers more worth it, since the comeback is real. We could see anything, including the passive play that people are worried about. But claiming it is going to go one specific way for x, y, z reasons is just silly because we yet to see in practice at all. It is making claims based on literally zero evidence.
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On September 26 2014 01:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:16 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:06 LeLoup wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. Holy shit can we stop with this idiotic crap already. We have no idea how it will work out. 0. No one here has played a game of this or seen a pro game of it. Meanwhile on the other side they have a full fucking team of balance testers that have worked on this. In simpler terms. We have no way of knowing what will actually happen. Stop assuming you do because all everyone is throwing around are ridiculous scenarios that have almost 0 basis in reality. It has probably been adjusted 100+ times already. And if it needs still further adjustment it will get it. But stop pretending like you understand the change when you haven't even played a game with it yet. Their "full fucking team of balance testers" weren't able to catch onto Faceless Void cancer, if you want an example. They weren't even able to figure out that there might be a tiiiiiiny problem with Earth Spirit. Hell, they couldn't even think of using Ghost Scepter on Huskar. Where's your faith in them coming from? Plz, it took forever for the pro scene to find the cancer that was void. And even if they didn't catch it, it still doesn't give you magic powers to predict the outcome of the complex thing that is dota after the changes. No one has that power.
ixmike of all people found it basically instantly. It's not even all that cancerous in pro doto. It's cancerous in pub doto. That's pretty easy to predict. Heroes that are difficult to interact with are naturally very strong in pubs. For example, anyone with invisibility. Want a sample prediction? Chen is going to be really, really strong in pubs because they will struggle to shut him down before he gets his Aghs and 11 and takes two Ancient creeps to push with. I'd say something about Riki but he's always been strong in low-level pubs. Not much of a change there.
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United States15275 Posts
On September 26 2014 01:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 01:20 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2014 01:16 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:06 LeLoup wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. Holy shit can we stop with this idiotic crap already. We have no idea how it will work out. 0. No one here has played a game of this or seen a pro game of it. Meanwhile on the other side they have a full fucking team of balance testers that have worked on this. In simpler terms. We have no way of knowing what will actually happen. Stop assuming you do because all everyone is throwing around are ridiculous scenarios that have almost 0 basis in reality. It has probably been adjusted 100+ times already. And if it needs still further adjustment it will get it. But stop pretending like you understand the change when you haven't even played a game with it yet. Their "full fucking team of balance testers" weren't able to catch onto Faceless Void cancer, if you want an example. They weren't even able to figure out that there might be a tiiiiiiny problem with Earth Spirit. Hell, they couldn't even think of using Ghost Scepter on Huskar. Where's your faith in them coming from? Plz, it took forever for the pro scene to find the cancer that was void. And even if they didn't catch it, it still doesn't give you magic powers to predict the outcome of the complex thing that is dota after the changes. No one has that power. Key word being the "pro scene", which was pretty much EG and Eternal Envy prior to 6.81. Void players were already starting to cringe when they read the 6.80 changes. My point still stands that no one in this thread has the ability to figure out how these changes will effect the meta game and the way people play. It might change nothing or only make fighting over towers more worth it, since the comeback is real. We could see anything, including the passive play that people are worried about. But claiming it is going to go one specific way for x, y, z reasons is just silly because we yet to see in practice at all. It is making claims based on literally zero evidence.
No one ever can predict the full consequences of a single change. After all, Void cancer wouldn't have happened without the offlane changes and shift in hero pool. But it's not a strong argument to point to the pro scene as a reliable source. It tends to be awfully stubborn or reactive regarding what heroes it considers "viable".
Changes to meta are often less about actual buffs/nerfs than how important people deem them to be. We got Void cancer precisely because he had poor representation at the highest level, and players didn't notice his power creep until he got popular. Conversely, Batrider completely dropping out of competitive play was the result of people overreacting to his nerfs instead of relegating him to the role of a strong, situational offlaner.
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Tebellong44238 Posts
On September 26 2014 01:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:
But it's not a strong argument to point to the pro scene as a reliable source. It tends to be awfully stubborn or reactive regarding what heroes it considers "viable".
Can you reread that and ponder it for a second?
The pro scene is literally the ONLY SOURCE worth mentioning for considering balance. "Oh but Sn0_Man I knew void was OP 3 patches ago" grats dude only he wasn't and nobody cares because him being imbalanced and not used isn't a concern.
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On September 26 2014 01:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes.
And in time, the logical response will come through. It simply is the case that winning a teamfight while behind makes a much bigger difference with the comeback mechanic. This means that you either want to be planning to take advantage of that, or trying to avoid ever losing a teamfight. Teams that avoid this paradigm are just going to feed gold to the other team or get teased around the map for 30 minutes.
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United States15275 Posts
On September 26 2014 01:33 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:
But it's not a strong argument to point to the pro scene as a reliable source. It tends to be awfully stubborn or reactive regarding what heroes it considers "viable". The pro scene is literally the ONLY SOURCE worth mentioning for considering balance.
Nope.
That's one of the most popular misconceptions regarding expertise in any field.
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Tebellong44238 Posts
If u balance for not the pro scene u get spiritbreaker lol
The actual most popular misconception is "i have any idea at all about dota balance" since most people dont
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On September 26 2014 01:33 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:
But it's not a strong argument to point to the pro scene as a reliable source. It tends to be awfully stubborn or reactive regarding what heroes it considers "viable". Can you reread that and ponder it for a second? The pro scene is literally the ONLY SOURCE worth mentioning for considering balance. "Oh but Sn0_Man I knew void was OP 3 patches ago" grats dude only he wasn't and nobody cares because him being imbalanced and not used isn't a concern.
Pub meta is actually like 10x as important as pro meta as far as balance is concerned. Sure, professional play is the highest level of play, but pub games are what people actually play. If it turns out that new Bloodseeker or new PL are literally so strong that they have 100% winrate, it doesn't matter that they don't show up in pro games. DOTA2 will basically die because nobody wants to play it any longer. Even if there's a ridiculously strong hero that's viable in pro and pubs, it never ends up mattering as much in pro play because it can get banned in CM. If nerfing a hero makes pro play a little less diverse but makes pubs far more bearable, it should be done every time without hesitation.
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On September 26 2014 01:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
If u balance for not the pro scene u get spiritbreaker lol
The actual most popular misconception is "i have any idea at all about dota balance" since most people dont
lol wut
Spiritbreaker was an example of trying to balance FOR the pro scene. Icefrog wanted to make the hero viable in competitive as some sort of BKB controller. It worked, too. SB was situationally picked, if rarely. In pubs, though, he became way too strong because he wasn't balanced for that meta.
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still tons of bugs, not sure if they can ship today.
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Tebellong44238 Posts
Out of the top 10 heroes by winrate according to dotabuff, no fewer than 7 of them received noticeable buffs in 6.82, 2 received trivial mana cost nerfs to their ults, and one received the smallest nerf conceivable (viper).
Pub "Balance" is super mega ultra irrelevant. Also note that if Icefrog balanced for pubs he'd be balancing for like 18 tiers of play below you regardless of ur skill cuz if u can find the post button on LD ur probably well above average.
On September 26 2014 01:41 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
If u balance for not the pro scene u get spiritbreaker lol
The actual most popular misconception is "i have any idea at all about dota balance" since most people dont lol wut Spiritbreaker was an example of trying to balance FOR the pro scene. Icefrog wanted to make the hero viable in competitive as some sort of BKB controller. It worked, too. SB was situationally picked, if rarely. In pubs, though, he became way too strong because he wasn't balanced for that meta.
I'm talking about the nerfed version. The buffed version was still not good enough in pro but too good for pubs so IceFraud nerfed him to balance pubs. And now the hero's literally an autoloss in every possible way.
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On September 26 2014 01:35 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes. And in time, the logical response will come through. It simply is the case that winning a teamfight while behind makes a much bigger difference with the comeback mechanic. This means that you either want to be planning to take advantage of that, or trying to avoid ever losing a teamfight. Teams that avoid this paradigm are just going to feed gold to the other team or get teased around the map for 30 minutes.
That greatly depends on how big the come mechanic is. People have done the math for leads of 20-30K and even with that the amounts of gold the "behind team" gets is not going to put them back into the fight instantly. And this disregards the fact that most team fights with that kind of lead are comically one sided.
That and your theory also competently disregards the fact that the system encourages the team that is behind to seek out pick offs and try to take advantageous fights. It rewards both passivity and activity.
Edit: Also, I don't think Iceforg cares any more about pro-meta than he does pub meta. If you balance for the pros at the expense of the pubs, your game has issues.
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EPT
