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On September 26 2014 01:42 Sn0_Man wrote:Out of the top 10 heroes by winrate according to dotabuff, no fewer than 7 of them received noticeable buffs in 6.82, 2 received trivial mana cost nerfs to their ults, and one received the smallest nerf conceivable (viper). Pub "Balance" is super mega ultra irrelevant. Also note that if Icefrog balanced for pubs he'd be balancing for like 18 tiers of play below you regardless of ur skill cuz if u can find the post button on LD ur probably well above average. Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:41 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
If u balance for not the pro scene u get spiritbreaker lol
The actual most popular misconception is "i have any idea at all about dota balance" since most people dont lol wut Spiritbreaker was an example of trying to balance FOR the pro scene. Icefrog wanted to make the hero viable in competitive as some sort of BKB controller. It worked, too. SB was situationally picked, if rarely. In pubs, though, he became way too strong because he wasn't balanced for that meta. I'm talking about the nerfed version. The buffed version was still not good enough in pro but too good for pubs so IceFraud nerfed him to balance pubs. And now the hero's literally an autoloss in every possible way.
That's because SB is poorly designed. If a hero is always going to be too strong in pubs if he's acceptable in pro play, there's something just wrong about how he works.
I'm also wondering how an Aghs change to Necro could be considered a "noticeable buff." That hero was scary for the Mek timing push.
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When he kills u at level 6 ur respawn time more than doubles
Thats how.
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On September 26 2014 01:42 Sn0_Man wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Out of the top 10 heroes by winrate according to dotabuff, no fewer than 7 of them received noticeable buffs in 6.82, 2 received trivial mana cost nerfs to their ults, and one received the smallest nerf conceivable (viper). Pub "Balance" is super mega ultra irrelevant. Also note that if Icefrog balanced for pubs he'd be balancing for like 18 tiers of play below you regardless of ur skill cuz if u can find the post button on LD ur probably well above average. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2014 01:41 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
If u balance for not the pro scene u get spiritbreaker lol
The actual most popular misconception is "i have any idea at all about dota balance" since most people dont lol wut Spiritbreaker was an example of trying to balance FOR the pro scene. Icefrog wanted to make the hero viable in competitive as some sort of BKB controller. It worked, too. SB was situationally picked, if rarely. In pubs, though, he became way too strong because he wasn't balanced for that meta. I'm talking about the nerfed version. The buffed version was still not good enough in pro but too good for pubs so IceFraud nerfed him to balance pubs. And now the hero's literally an autoloss in every possible way.
Valve wants people to play dota (because they want people to spend money etc. you know cosmetics etc). Most people play pubs. Unbalanced pubs supposedly lead to less people playing dota. This IS relevant for valve.
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If unbalanced pubs actually led to less people playing dota, necrolyte would be getting nerfed since he wins 59 percent of games (jesus fuck thats a lot) but he's still RARELY picked in pubs and getting buffs. Because people don't actually mind losing to that hero, he doesn't feel terribly "bullshit". And he isn't too good if you have a clue, which pubs dont.
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I don't know how you got from 49% pub win rate to "literally an autoloss" on Spirit Breaker.
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On September 26 2014 01:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:35 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes. And in time, the logical response will come through. It simply is the case that winning a teamfight while behind makes a much bigger difference with the comeback mechanic. This means that you either want to be planning to take advantage of that, or trying to avoid ever losing a teamfight. Teams that avoid this paradigm are just going to feed gold to the other team or get teased around the map for 30 minutes. That greatly depends on how big the come mechanic is. People have done the math for leads of 20-30K and even with that the amounts of gold the "behind team" gets is not going to put them back into the fight instantly. And this disregards the fact that most team fights with that kind of lead are comically one sided. That and your theory also competently disregards the fact that the system encourages the team that is behind to seek out pick offs and try to take advantageous fights. It rewards both passivity and activity.
That kind of "pick--off" is commonly known as the desperation smoke. Whether or not it works is mostly just dumb luck. That's not a desirable game state. Taking "advantageous fights" is called turtling. Maybe I should learn Korean and watch their casting.
Do you mean completely or competently?
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On September 26 2014 01:47 Sn0_Man wrote:
When he kills u at level 6 ur respawn time more than doubles
Thats how.
If he has Aghs at 6 there are probably other problems in that game
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On September 26 2014 01:51 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:47 Sn0_Man wrote:
When he kills u at level 6 ur respawn time more than doubles
Thats how. If he has Aghs at 6 there are probably other problems in that game
Why would he need aghs for that?
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On September 26 2014 01:51 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:47 Sn0_Man wrote:
When he kills u at level 6 ur respawn time more than doubles
Thats how. If he has Aghs at 6 there are probably other problems in that game
u dont need aghs for longer respawn.
aghs only stops buyback
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On September 26 2014 01:50 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:46 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2014 01:35 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes. And in time, the logical response will come through. It simply is the case that winning a teamfight while behind makes a much bigger difference with the comeback mechanic. This means that you either want to be planning to take advantage of that, or trying to avoid ever losing a teamfight. Teams that avoid this paradigm are just going to feed gold to the other team or get teased around the map for 30 minutes. That greatly depends on how big the come mechanic is. People have done the math for leads of 20-30K and even with that the amounts of gold the "behind team" gets is not going to put them back into the fight instantly. And this disregards the fact that most team fights with that kind of lead are comically one sided. That and your theory also competently disregards the fact that the system encourages the team that is behind to seek out pick offs and try to take advantageous fights. It rewards both passivity and activity. That kind of "pick--off" is commonly known as the desperation smoke. Whether or not it works is mostly just dumb luck. That's not a desirable game state. Taking "advantageous fights" is called turtling. Maybe I should learn Korean and watch their casting. Do you mean completely or competently?
Completely, typing on phones is hard.
And I don't think the gold gain is as serious as you think it is. The enemy team's net worth is but one of four factors into how it is calculated and the amount also changes as the kills take place during the fight. And having 5 heroes involved in the kill greatly reduces the amount of gold each player gets.
I get where you are coming from and agree it could be an issue, but I think it is way to soon to say it is the "logical response" when we have yet to see a single pro game on this patch. Or competitive team fight for that matter.
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United States15275 Posts
On September 26 2014 01:35 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes. And in time, the logical response will come through. It simply is the case that winning a teamfight while behind makes a much bigger difference with the comeback mechanic. This means that you either want to be planning to take advantage of that, or trying to avoid ever losing a teamfight. Teams that avoid this paradigm are just going to feed gold to the other team or get teased around the map for 30 minutes.
Maybe but that's not the only possible response. We could see tanky tricore lineups focused on winning midgame fights through attrition and healing. We could see the return of Batrider as first ban/pick since he can instantly turn potential engagements into lopsided fights, minimizing the risk of losing or drawing even in lategame fights. We might see a period when teams clam up when ahead, then feel out how much they can afford to give up when pushing towers/rax and revert back to more aggression. Or we could see extremely boring games where one side gets a big advantage and does nothing for 20 minutes. No one really knows. The only guaranteed thing is that all teams won't have the same reaction simultaneously.
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On September 26 2014 01:54 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:51 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:47 Sn0_Man wrote:
When he kills u at level 6 ur respawn time more than doubles
Thats how. If he has Aghs at 6 there are probably other problems in that game u dont need aghs for longer respawn. aghs only stops buyback
Oh, guess it changed.
It's really not all that big a deal even so. It's painful but whatever, there's not a ton that can be done in that time. The 30% was big for lategame. That's time enough to end the game.
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You can end a game very easily in 130sec
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On September 26 2014 01:57 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:54 ChunderBoy wrote:On September 26 2014 01:51 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:47 Sn0_Man wrote:
When he kills u at level 6 ur respawn time more than doubles
Thats how. If he has Aghs at 6 there are probably other problems in that game u dont need aghs for longer respawn. aghs only stops buyback Oh, guess it changed. It's really not all that big a deal even so. It's painful but whatever, there's not a ton that can be done in that time. The 30% was big for lategame. That's time enough to end the game.
No, it didn't change lol.
And 30s is literally ALWAYS equal to or longer than 30% unless they have a buyback penalty.
Its a buff, straight up. PS if they have 100s death timer u should be considering an aghs to prevent buyback in the first place.
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On September 26 2014 01:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:35 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes. And in time, the logical response will come through. It simply is the case that winning a teamfight while behind makes a much bigger difference with the comeback mechanic. This means that you either want to be planning to take advantage of that, or trying to avoid ever losing a teamfight. Teams that avoid this paradigm are just going to feed gold to the other team or get teased around the map for 30 minutes. Maybe but that's not the only possible response. We could see tanky tricore lineups focused on winning midgame fights through attrition and healing. We could see the return of Batrider as first ban/pick since he can instantly turn potential engagements into lopsided fights, minimizing the risk of losing or drawing even in lategame fights. Or we could see extremely boring games where one side gets a big advantage and does nothing for 20 minutes. No one really knows. The only guaranteed thing is that all teams won't have the same reaction simultaneously.
The first possibility is literally just current meta. That'll be the start, sure, because people know how to do it. Maybe it'll even turn out that the nerfs to Razor, Viper, and Mek were totally irrelevant, and we get another three months of the same damn game. I'm pretty sure we'll just see a mega teamfight lineup take over from them. Batrider can fit into any scenario. That's part of what makes him so good.
The immediate responses don't matter so much. Teams have a way of falling into a stasis, given enough time.
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On September 26 2014 02:08 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 01:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 01:35 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes. And in time, the logical response will come through. It simply is the case that winning a teamfight while behind makes a much bigger difference with the comeback mechanic. This means that you either want to be planning to take advantage of that, or trying to avoid ever losing a teamfight. Teams that avoid this paradigm are just going to feed gold to the other team or get teased around the map for 30 minutes. Maybe but that's not the only possible response. We could see tanky tricore lineups focused on winning midgame fights through attrition and healing. We could see the return of Batrider as first ban/pick since he can instantly turn potential engagements into lopsided fights, minimizing the risk of losing or drawing even in lategame fights. Or we could see extremely boring games where one side gets a big advantage and does nothing for 20 minutes. No one really knows. The only guaranteed thing is that all teams won't have the same reaction simultaneously. The first possibility is literally just current meta. That'll be the start, sure, because people know how to do it. Maybe it'll even turn out that the nerfs to Razor, Viper, and Mek were totally irrelevant, and we get another three months of the same damn game. I'm pretty sure we'll just see a mega teamfight lineup take over from them. Batrider can fit into any scenario. That's part of what makes him so good. The immediate responses don't matter so much. Teams have a way of falling into a stasis, given enough time.
with the new item + meka nerfs there's no point in getting it on viper/razor
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On September 26 2014 02:10 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 02:08 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 01:35 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes. And in time, the logical response will come through. It simply is the case that winning a teamfight while behind makes a much bigger difference with the comeback mechanic. This means that you either want to be planning to take advantage of that, or trying to avoid ever losing a teamfight. Teams that avoid this paradigm are just going to feed gold to the other team or get teased around the map for 30 minutes. Maybe but that's not the only possible response. We could see tanky tricore lineups focused on winning midgame fights through attrition and healing. We could see the return of Batrider as first ban/pick since he can instantly turn potential engagements into lopsided fights, minimizing the risk of losing or drawing even in lategame fights. Or we could see extremely boring games where one side gets a big advantage and does nothing for 20 minutes. No one really knows. The only guaranteed thing is that all teams won't have the same reaction simultaneously. The first possibility is literally just current meta. That'll be the start, sure, because people know how to do it. Maybe it'll even turn out that the nerfs to Razor, Viper, and Mek were totally irrelevant, and we get another three months of the same damn game. I'm pretty sure we'll just see a mega teamfight lineup take over from them. Batrider can fit into any scenario. That's part of what makes him so good. The immediate responses don't matter so much. Teams have a way of falling into a stasis, given enough time. with the new item + meka nerfs there's no point in getting it on viper/razor
crimson guard is probably ass on ranged heros and because Viper has more than enough mana i would still consider mek core on him.
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On September 26 2014 02:10 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 02:08 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 01:35 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes. And in time, the logical response will come through. It simply is the case that winning a teamfight while behind makes a much bigger difference with the comeback mechanic. This means that you either want to be planning to take advantage of that, or trying to avoid ever losing a teamfight. Teams that avoid this paradigm are just going to feed gold to the other team or get teased around the map for 30 minutes. Maybe but that's not the only possible response. We could see tanky tricore lineups focused on winning midgame fights through attrition and healing. We could see the return of Batrider as first ban/pick since he can instantly turn potential engagements into lopsided fights, minimizing the risk of losing or drawing even in lategame fights. Or we could see extremely boring games where one side gets a big advantage and does nothing for 20 minutes. No one really knows. The only guaranteed thing is that all teams won't have the same reaction simultaneously. The first possibility is literally just current meta. That'll be the start, sure, because people know how to do it. Maybe it'll even turn out that the nerfs to Razor, Viper, and Mek were totally irrelevant, and we get another three months of the same damn game. I'm pretty sure we'll just see a mega teamfight lineup take over from them. Batrider can fit into any scenario. That's part of what makes him so good. The immediate responses don't matter so much. Teams have a way of falling into a stasis, given enough time. with the new item + meka nerfs there's no point in getting it on viper/razor
Lets not even talk about the reduced tower gold and glyph changes. Or the nerf to NPs trees, one of the biggest partners in these push line ups.
Everything is new.
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Well the activated damage block costs no mana and doesn't distinguish between ranged and melee damage block so it might be justifiable.
Have to wait and see.
However, I'm pessimistic about the item as a whole. Its fucking expensive.
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On September 26 2014 02:12 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 02:10 ChunderBoy wrote:On September 26 2014 02:08 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 01:35 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2014 01:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 26 2014 00:54 Acritter wrote:On September 25 2014 23:55 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 25 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:
Man, Merlini continues to be the guy to listen to when it come to patch notes and level headed impressions. His break down was really on point and I like how he didn’t go through each change. His analysis of the map changes were really interesting, especially about the Radiant offlane being easier to gank(I didn’t even think of that). I also like how he just moved over stuff that he couldn’t really assess without seeing it in game, like the XP and Gold changes with only a comment “the comeback is real”.
I wish more people would do it like he did, rather than rush to put something up on youtube without even thinking about the changes.
Half the point of new patch notes is to freak out and overreact, imo. For any of the more complicated changes noone is gonna know exactly how it will play out, but it's fun to theorycraft / see people theorycraft what the hell the fallout will be. I'm still on the fence on the gold/exp changes though. If it works like I think it does, it'll only take one game of some doofus deciding that he hates our whole team and intentionally feeding two or three kills to throw most of our advantage. And even if you're losing, such a high emphasis is put on pickoffs... I dunno. I'm anxious to see what it'll do to the game, but I'm afraid I won't like it that much. The problem is that the "comeback" mechanic swings the balance more in favor of 5man teamfight over farming. Advantage is only being measured by net worth and level, here. That's not the only kind of advantage. A team can gain a sudden advantage thanks to a specific level or item pickup that isn't cleanly measured on a linear chart. Hell, they can even gain an advantage simply due to good positioning or a lucky Smoke. None of these are accounted for in the formula, meaning that winning a teamfight will give more gold than it really ought to. I'm sure we've all had these experiences of the dumb 5man ult strat winning several unlikely teamfights from way behind in a row and only sometimes managing to translate that into a win. Now it's going to be inevitable for the 5man to regain all their lost ground. The worst interaction of the new mechanic is with heroes that have basically unstoppable pickoff potential: Doom and Void. A hero can absolutely wreck the laning phase, get into the midgame with a huge advantage... and will still be killed by the pair, because Doom and Chrono are really, really strong spells. Duel, for what it's worth, has much of the same pickoff quality. Black Hole is absurdly strong, but has a significantly longer cooldown. This is going to be problematic in pro games as much as pubs. I imagine teams will attempt some kind of 4 protect 1 strat with basically invulnerable heroes like Morphling, but that will quickly devolve into yet another fucking 5man meta where everyone stays close to the carry because getting caught out gives the other team too much. Anyone remember that TI3 game where Burning got 12slotted on LD because his team was too scared to push high ground? Get ready for more of it. When one bad fight can swing the game totally around, it's just gonna get harder to break the best-defended position of the game. And now you have one less minute on your free respawn, to boot. I really hope the gold change doesn't go through. That would be the logical response if teams were into the game consciously thinking about the gold/XP changes. In reality it will probably be a mixture of "OMG this change is huge, we have to shift everything" and "Meh, we're sticking to what we know until we can feel its effect". Dota trends always seem to fall into one of these 2 extremes. And in time, the logical response will come through. It simply is the case that winning a teamfight while behind makes a much bigger difference with the comeback mechanic. This means that you either want to be planning to take advantage of that, or trying to avoid ever losing a teamfight. Teams that avoid this paradigm are just going to feed gold to the other team or get teased around the map for 30 minutes. Maybe but that's not the only possible response. We could see tanky tricore lineups focused on winning midgame fights through attrition and healing. We could see the return of Batrider as first ban/pick since he can instantly turn potential engagements into lopsided fights, minimizing the risk of losing or drawing even in lategame fights. Or we could see extremely boring games where one side gets a big advantage and does nothing for 20 minutes. No one really knows. The only guaranteed thing is that all teams won't have the same reaction simultaneously. The first possibility is literally just current meta. That'll be the start, sure, because people know how to do it. Maybe it'll even turn out that the nerfs to Razor, Viper, and Mek were totally irrelevant, and we get another three months of the same damn game. I'm pretty sure we'll just see a mega teamfight lineup take over from them. Batrider can fit into any scenario. That's part of what makes him so good. The immediate responses don't matter so much. Teams have a way of falling into a stasis, given enough time. with the new item + meka nerfs there's no point in getting it on viper/razor crimson guard is probably ass on ranged heros and because Viper has more than enough mana i would still consider mek core on him.
u still get +50 block when active for both ranged and melee.
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EPT
