General Discussion - Page 317

On April 02 2012 06:34 NB wrote:
the main problem with clinkz is that once you are forced into teamfight situation, he has 0 HP and just die to 1-2 non ulti nuke before he could killed anyone.

Take a look at EG line up, you really think Puck is a better replacement for rhasta? I think even a lion/batrider would do a better job. Such a waste of chen pick... Riki in the first 3 picks also gave DTS a lot of room to 'breath' since they know that they dont have to face an all-in push strategy. This is prob a defensive pick to avoid Furion+smoke but you should account for that the moment you let furion slip through the ban phase by banning bane/wr. With the current metagame, tide/BM is much more favored as first pick compare to post the international where we always see venom+wr.

This is why i wana do a write up on the current ban/pick meta game: EU is playing completely different from chinese and SEA and i think the SEA teams are doing it right.

On April 02 2012 07:33 rabidch wrote:

clinkz HP isnt the problem, if you death pact you have plenty of hp to work with, usually 1200-1600 midgame which can be outstanding, especially since chen/ench carries creeps around to be eaten up. problem is in these teamfights he can be weak against particular lineups, which EG only moderately had (no consistent hard disables besides tidehunter ult and centaur stun), CLG had some better ways but its not like DTS didnt have their own methods of getting around the problem. clinkz laning is also fairly passive and helpless against fast pushers like brood, furion, chen/ench (+2 strat) if he's put in lanes against them.

EG picked puck as a synergy hero with lich and riki, but honestly i'd question the lich pick more than the puck pick, which fits in even less with the rest of the lineup

On April 02 2012 07:29 NB wrote:
The main problem i have right now is there is now liquidpedia page to actually pull stat from and i have to go over each vods to list out ban pick

These are what i have in notepad so far and its PAINFUL to finish....

+ Show Spoiler +

Notice these are not even the complete tournament and its only 1 tourenament out of 3 that i wana do analysis on... -_-

another way i could do it is hero-by-hero but then i will miss out on some 'strange' pick such as viper/Clinkz

On April 02 2012 06:24 Hoban wrote:


Well there seems to be two main invoker builds and the one you choose depends on team lineup. The first is Wex/Quas where Wex is maxed first with points in Quas. This build is basically a CC monster, being able to coldsnap, tornado, and deafening blast a team into oblivion. Also, EMP is extremely strong. When going for CC I have been trying Quas>Wex as the Quas points scale better in terms of CC and it seems to be nice. Downside is you really really need a team to follow up with more damage. The other build I like and that I see often is Exort/Quas. The key with this build is getting forge spirits. Once you have 4/4 Quas/Exort, you get 2 forge spirits which allow you to farm and destroy people/towers. Cold Snap + Forge spirits is very deadly 1v1 and for teamfights you bring shitloads of damage. You need some reliable CC/initiators to get off good meteors and ice walls but those spells absolutely ruin teamfights. You also much much more vulnerable to ganking due to no levels in wex for a long time (no invis and really slow movement speed). As far as items go, it is basically whatever fits the match. Try to grab Aghas about the time you hit lvl 17. A Bkb Aghas invoker can completely dominate a teamfight.

If you are just trying him out here is what I reccomend:
Q/R/Q/W level W>Q get E around lvl 11 or 13
Items: Start Claw+tangoes
Phase boots, Drums, Euls (or void stone + Bkb if they are CC heavy), Aghas
Early game: Gank with Cold Snap and tornado only if you need to get into position. Cold snap also dominates in lane. If you can get your opponent to get creep aggro then you cold snap it is huge damage.
Mid Game: you are very mobile so try to be ganking a lot. Delay pushes with Tornado+emp (or hit them under the tower with it). Job in teamfight is to Tornado to set up, deafening blast as many people as possible, coldsnap the biggest threat.Maybe an EMP if people arent moving much.
Late game: stay with your team. use every single spell ever in a team fight. this is the hardest part of invoker tbh. Once you have lvl 17 + aghas you have near-unlimited potential. It takes a huge amount of practice but basically:
Zone control- EMP, Deafening Blast, Ice Wall
CC- Tornado, Cold Snap
DPS- Forge Spirits, Meteor, Alacrity, sunstrike
This is your priority list of stuff to do in a fight. Your exort spells really dont do too much damage so if you have to cut something, cut the meteor and sunstrike.

Hope this helps. There are tons of better invoker players on the forum then me so they can probably give you some really awesome advice as well.





His QoP is...just...omg. The very first time I saw Mouz I was just blown away by Bamboe. He seriously is just super super good. So much fun to watch.

On April 02 2012 07:52 dragonborn wrote:

thank you so much for this.

invoker looking so fun, but late game is definitely looking hard.

On April 02 2012 07:52 dragonborn wrote:

thank you so much for this.

invoker looking so fun, but late game is definitely looking hard.

On April 02 2012 08:19 NB wrote:
im curious if Valve is using a 'sum' instead of multiplying system in their MMR.

So this is how sum system work:
Player 1 (1000)
Player 2 (1500)
Total team MMR: (2500)

Match with

Player 3 (2000)
Player 4 (500)
Total: (2500)

How multiply system works:
Player 1 (1000)
Player 2 (1500)
Total team MMR: (15*(10^5))

will not Match with

Player 3 (2000)
Player 4 (500)
Total: (1000000) = 10*(10^5) < 15*(10^5)

I just got a game where my entire team except me has less than 100 wins and totally feed win the enemy team has 300 wins each. How do they expect me to 1 carry 4? ~_~

On April 02 2012 12:49 DoomBox wrote:
Just won a 79 minute long game, it was freaking dumb...
No team could win a teamfight decisively. We had Dazzle and Omni on our team, and they had Skeleton King. I was playing Viper and found myself with 5 big items + boots and gold to spare.
They had pushed all our raxes but one, but in the end we finally killed SK and barely throned through mid lane, with our throne at about 20%.
Close game, but it annoys me that we couldn't finish it faster...

On April 02 2012 12:36 Kentakky wrote:
Misery leaving EG! Talked about it on his stream... http://www.twitch.tv/miserytheslayer/b/313610675 about 0:30:40 in on video.

Only really good player on that team imo, hope he finds new home :I

On April 02 2012 12:56 XenocideFTW wrote:
Hey guys, where's a good place to check out most of the competitive DOTA 2 play?

Is it just playdota?

On April 02 2012 12:56 XenocideFTW wrote:
Hey guys, where's a good place to check out most of the competitive DOTA 2 play?

Is it just playdota?

On April 02 2012 08:45 TheYango wrote:
About Invoker:

The changes to Invoker in 6.74 have prompted some Chinese pros to take a different approach toward playing him in the last few weeks. Most notably, people are taking Exort ranks earlier, and not necessarily maxing out Wex first (LGD.Yao has taken the approach of 3xQuas->5xWex before starting to level Exort at around level 11, with the reasoning that 3xQuas+5xWex gives you the right mix of Tornado knockup time and EMP channel time to get behavior similar enough to the old Tornado+EMP combo). Players have also started to play around with the approach of itemizing Invoker toward lategame physical DPS, opting for items like Orchid, BKB, and Mjollnir after the early-game Phase+Janggo+Force core, rather than the conventional caster semicarry path involving items like Sheep and Aghanim's--though this is more composition-dependent, as many games still call for the caster itemization.

On April 02 2012 13:55 Ack1027 wrote:


This is kinda interesting, though expected.

Still after playing him at my level I can't help but feel dendi has the right idea. QE buffs have gotten him to the point where he can survive and thrive early-mid and then have a ridiculous transition into tornado emp.

Watching dendi or other high level western invokers, I see that the spells that QE opens you up to are way more effective early game, while tornado/emp/disarm length of QWE are good all game. Cold snapping with summons and new PURE damage from sunstrike is just amazing. Instead of doing what some chinese are doing I feel like Dendi's way can thrive better. What you described is like a compromise starting with slightly nerfed spells to kind of play to what invoker's strength were previously, while dendi's way still gets to those strengths but from a better start.

On April 02 2012 08:19 NB wrote:
im curious if Valve is using a 'sum' instead of multiplying system in their MMR.

So this is how sum system work:
Player 1 (1000)
Player 2 (1500)
Total team MMR: (2500)

Match with

Player 3 (2000)
Player 4 (500)
Total: (2500)

How multiply system works:
Player 1 (1000)
Player 2 (1500)
Total team MMR: (15*(10^5))

will not Match with

Player 3 (2000)
Player 4 (500)
Total: (1000000) = 10*(10^5) < 15*(10^5)

I just got a game where my entire team except me has less than 100 wins and totally feed win the enemy team has 300 wins each. How do they expect me to 1 carry 4? ~_~

On April 02 2012 13:55 Ack1027 wrote:


This is kinda interesting, though expected.

Still after playing him at my level I can't help but feel dendi has the right idea. QE buffs have gotten him to the point where he can survive and thrive early-mid and then have a ridiculous transition into tornado emp.

Watching dendi or other high level western invokers, I see that the spells that QE opens you up to are way more effective early game, while tornado/emp/disarm length of QWE are good all game. Cold snapping with summons and new PURE damage from sunstrike is just amazing. Instead of doing what some chinese are doing I feel like Dendi's way can thrive better. What you described is like a compromise starting with slightly nerfed spells to kind of play to what invoker's strength were previously, while dendi's way still gets to those strengths but from a better start.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I'm sure chinese invokers are facing much harder/different/well thought out opposition due to the nature of dota1. Not to mention that even though dendi's way might work against the dota2 meta it wouldn't necessarily be as good in dota 1's more push/aoe-centric lineups.