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On March 27 2012 03:40 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:31 Kiante wrote:On March 27 2012 03:28 widdox wrote:
I'm new to watching the DOTA 2 scene but for me Ayesee and Draskill do an excellent job. I was pleasantly surprised how well they did together. Yes ayesee is not an expert, but he doesn't need to be. He does a good job calling the action and letting Draskill fill in the details in the down time. The problem is, you dont really understand what you're missing. if he misses a gank you just miss it. if you saw a good caster/observer casting the same game as aysee you'd understand No, if there is a problem then it's the caster being misinformed. New players wont notice it, because they don't know if what the casters say is true. Where even just an average player will cringe inside when someone calls, for example, dark seer, low armor.
This is a problem in all MOBAs. Learning how 30 different characters play and what spells they have is an insane amount of stuff for a non-player to learn. Even if DOTA2 was not in beta, I wouldn't probably have time to play it enough to learn it all. As a community though most MOBAs seem to look down at new or non players. Just a catch 22 I guess.
Even if an educated caster knows what he is talking about, but dumbs it down for the casual viewer, most hardcore players will not be happy.
edit: I guess I just wanted to say that I've enjoyed watching DOTA 2 more than LOL or HON. I am a SC2 fan for the most part, but I think I will like DOTA2 more in the long run. I will most likely always be a casual observer, and will enjoy casters who don't get caught up arguing over nuances of the game instead of calling the action.
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On March 27 2012 03:44 widdox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:40 Unleashing wrote:On March 27 2012 03:31 Kiante wrote:On March 27 2012 03:28 widdox wrote:
I'm new to watching the DOTA 2 scene but for me Ayesee and Draskill do an excellent job. I was pleasantly surprised how well they did together. Yes ayesee is not an expert, but he doesn't need to be. He does a good job calling the action and letting Draskill fill in the details in the down time. The problem is, you dont really understand what you're missing. if he misses a gank you just miss it. if you saw a good caster/observer casting the same game as aysee you'd understand No, if there is a problem then it's the caster being misinformed. New players wont notice it, because they don't know if what the casters say is true. Where even just an average player will cringe inside when someone calls, for example, dark seer, low armor. This is a problem in all MOBAs. Learning how 30 different characters play and what spells they have is an insane amount of stuff for a non-player to learn. Even if DOTA2 was not in beta, I wouldn't probably have time to play it enough to learn it all. As a community though most MOBAs seem to look down at new or non players. Just a catch 22 I guess. Even if an educated caster knows what he is talking about, but dumbs it down for the casual viewer, most hardcore players will not be happy.
First of all, stop using the term MOBA for DotA, it's a silly term.(Not meant to be offensive, it just is a very stupid genre name and it is explained well here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255359#2 in the very same thread, in the very first post)
Secondly, it's not an insane amount of stuff, it's BASIC stuff you should know if you're planning to cast a professional game, and the funny part is that he PLAYED dota1, so he SHOULD know it.
It's like when tobi suggests vanguard on tidehunter, it's completely and utterly stupid due to it not stacking with kraken shell.
Knowing how a hero synergizes with items/picks/skills is core to being able to cast at just a basic level, else you'll as a caster spout out a lot of false information, which does more harm than good.
Edit: To make a SC2 analogy, it's like someone trying to cast without knowing the difference between light and armored units.
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On March 27 2012 03:37 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:31 Kiante wrote:On March 27 2012 03:28 widdox wrote:
I'm new to watching the DOTA 2 scene but for me Ayesee and Draskill do an excellent job. I was pleasantly surprised how well they did together. Yes ayesee is not an expert, but he doesn't need to be. He does a good job calling the action and letting Draskill fill in the details in the down time. The problem is, you dont really understand what you're missing. if he misses a gank you just miss it. if you saw a good caster/observer casting the same game as aysee you'd understand and tbh he cant even do his job right... for the love of god dendi was playing SD not riki and NO, THERE IS ONLY 1 DENDI ON NAVI
I thought there were 4 Dendis.
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The conversation between Purge and Godz was nice, I had completely forgotten about most of the other heroes.. interesting to hear that Centaur is being picked in competitive games, it's a great pubstomp hero.
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On March 27 2012 03:44 widdox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:40 Unleashing wrote:On March 27 2012 03:31 Kiante wrote:On March 27 2012 03:28 widdox wrote:
I'm new to watching the DOTA 2 scene but for me Ayesee and Draskill do an excellent job. I was pleasantly surprised how well they did together. Yes ayesee is not an expert, but he doesn't need to be. He does a good job calling the action and letting Draskill fill in the details in the down time. The problem is, you dont really understand what you're missing. if he misses a gank you just miss it. if you saw a good caster/observer casting the same game as aysee you'd understand No, if there is a problem then it's the caster being misinformed. New players wont notice it, because they don't know if what the casters say is true. Where even just an average player will cringe inside when someone calls, for example, dark seer, low armor. This is a problem in all MOBAs. Learning how 30 different characters play and what spells they have is an insane amount of stuff for a non-player to learn. Even if DOTA2 was not in beta, I wouldn't probably have time to play it enough to learn it all. As a community though most MOBAs seem to look down at new or non players. Just a catch 22 I guess. Even if an educated caster knows what he is talking about, but dumbs it down for the casual viewer, most hardcore players will not be happy.
tbh, the game is fucking old and you are learning it late. think about as you are finding out AWSD could be use instead of arrow keys in counterstrike... most of the knowledge are pretty damn basic if you actually care to learn it in a few months.
and one should not call himself a caster if himself cant even tell which player is which even though it is printed on the screen.
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removing my comment as it will do nothing but incite more and that wasn't my goal.
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Personally i'm ok with a caster dumbing a mechanic down to explain it to new people. But if the caster dumbs it down to the point where they are incorrect about how the mechanic actually works then that's just spreading misinformation.
I have absolutely 0 problem with new players, and i enjoy teaching new players, but the thing about a game like dota is that it isn't just the "hardcore" players who are to blame when it comes to the perceived condescending attitude in regards to new players.
There are tons of new players in dota 2 coming from different games like hon or lol or starcraft or whatever, and if you have ever tried to tell someone "hey you should do this instead of what you're doing, it'll work better" many times they will tell you "fuck you"
I have no problem with new players as long as they are willing to learn, but there are a lot of new players that aren't willing to learn and that's where i think the attitudes against new players come from.
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It always surprised me how people hate so much on caster, but instead of just muting the stream they go and bitch
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 27 2012 03:49 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:44 widdox wrote:On March 27 2012 03:40 Unleashing wrote:On March 27 2012 03:31 Kiante wrote:On March 27 2012 03:28 widdox wrote:
I'm new to watching the DOTA 2 scene but for me Ayesee and Draskill do an excellent job. I was pleasantly surprised how well they did together. Yes ayesee is not an expert, but he doesn't need to be. He does a good job calling the action and letting Draskill fill in the details in the down time. The problem is, you dont really understand what you're missing. if he misses a gank you just miss it. if you saw a good caster/observer casting the same game as aysee you'd understand No, if there is a problem then it's the caster being misinformed. New players wont notice it, because they don't know if what the casters say is true. Where even just an average player will cringe inside when someone calls, for example, dark seer, low armor. This is a problem in all MOBAs. Learning how 30 different characters play and what spells they have is an insane amount of stuff for a non-player to learn. Even if DOTA2 was not in beta, I wouldn't probably have time to play it enough to learn it all. As a community though most MOBAs seem to look down at new or non players. Just a catch 22 I guess. Even if an educated caster knows what he is talking about, but dumbs it down for the casual viewer, most hardcore players will not be happy. tbh, the game is fucking old and you are learning it late. think about as you are finding out AWSD could be use instead of arrow keys in counterstrike... most of the knowledge are pretty damn basic if you actually care to learn it in a few months.and one should not call himself a caster if himself cant even tell which player is which even though it is printed on the screen.
This is a terrible attitude from the Dota community, we want people to watch it, if they like it and are entertained then thats fine by me.
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On March 27 2012 03:54 BeanerBurrito wrote:
Personally i'm ok with a caster dumbing a mechanic down to explain it to new people. But if the caster dumbs it down to the point where they are incorrect about how the mechanic actually works then that's just spreading misinformation.
I have absolutely 0 problem with new players, and i enjoy teaching new players, but the thing about a game like dota is that it isn't just the "hardcore" players who are to blame when it comes to the perceived condescending attitude in regards to new players.
There are tons of new players in dota 2 coming from different games like hon or lol or starcraft or whatever, and if you have ever tried to tell someone "hey you should do this instead of what you're doing, it'll work better" many times they will tell you "fuck you"
I have no problem with new players as long as they are willing to learn, but there are a lot of new players that aren't willing to learn and that's where i think the attitudes against new players come from.
Understood. I can see that. I wasn't trying to be be flippant about the game, just I don't know much besides what I've learned watching some tournaments. And for me that casters that keep me in the action are the ones I enjoy the most.
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On March 27 2012 03:58 Yoshi- wrote:
It always surprised me how people hate so much on caster, but instead of just muting the stream they go and bitch
Because i like hearing game sounds instead of just listening to a completely quiet stream? The caster isn't bad when he's not spouting out wrong information?
There are multiple reasons.
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On March 27 2012 03:59 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:58 Yoshi- wrote:
It always surprised me how people hate so much on caster, but instead of just muting the stream they go and bitch Because i like hearing game sounds instead of just listening to a completely quiet stream? The caster isn't bad when he's not spouting out wrong information? There are multiple reasons.
But then you would also rage at every other stream, they all talk the same bullshit.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Also personally, I like the Russian stream more, just that excitement is pretty good to hear.
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On March 27 2012 03:54 BeanerBurrito wrote:
I have no problem with new players as long as they are willing to learn, but there are a lot of new players that aren't willing to learn and that's where i think the attitudes against new players come from.
The problem isn't just new players. Majority of people just don't seem to want to learn. Don't get why learning became such a bad thing.
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If Purge is being featured for commentary then shouldn't he be put in the "Others" section a la Tobi's stream? (Tobi isn't featured as a Player)
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On March 27 2012 04:01 Yoshi- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:59 Unleashing wrote:On March 27 2012 03:58 Yoshi- wrote:
It always surprised me how people hate so much on caster, but instead of just muting the stream they go and bitch Because i like hearing game sounds instead of just listening to a completely quiet stream? The caster isn't bad when he's not spouting out wrong information? There are multiple reasons. But then you would also rage at every other stream, they all talk the same bullshit.
I do not rage. That would imply that it makes me mad.
I do see the flaws of the other casters, there are no flawless casters, but what bothers ME is when they spout mechanically or strategically wrong information. Saying the name wrong, calling all players dendi doesn't bother me at all personally.
And no they do not all 'talk the same bullshit' knowing the stats of heroes and what items work with them, is something plenty of casters can do, but there are just as many that can't do it.
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On March 27 2012 04:05 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:54 BeanerBurrito wrote:
I have no problem with new players as long as they are willing to learn, but there are a lot of new players that aren't willing to learn and that's where i think the attitudes against new players come from. The problem isn't just new players. Majority of people just don't seem to want to learn. Don't get why learning became such a bad thing.
I think it's because people don't want to be noobs again.
If you were a pro in lol, or hon, or starcraft, you don't want to admit that you're a noob in dota.
I will say that as a person who's played dota for years, if i suddenly forgot everything i knew and had to learn it all again, I think it'd definitely be harder than i'd care to admit.
Anyone who's played dota for a long time, think back to your first game of dota, and then realize how nooby you were at one point as well.
It isn't easy to be a new player in an old game.
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The primary point of a caster is rarely to improve the understanding of the game, its to add flavor and exictement to the game he's casting. This is something that Tobi does exceptionally well, to a point where the Chinese, despite having access to the absolutely highest level of analytic commentary, love his ability to add color and to bring out the vividness and life of a game.
There's a point where analytic casting is really pointless, anything that I wouldn't pick up myself would probably fly over the heads of 95+% of the viewers, and so what would be the point of requiring that in a situation that is mostly play-by-play live games. High level commentary might have a place in replay casts themed to teach the game, but its pretty annoying in a lot of cases, both for the people that it flys over the heads of as well as the people who find it too shallow.
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On March 27 2012 04:10 BeanerBurrito wrote:
Anyone who's played dota for a long time, think back to your first game of dota, and then realize how nooby you were at one point as well.
I went S&Y and basher with vlads on all melee str of agi heroes xP Oh, those were the times. Or when i thought battlefury was a good item for sand king.
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tobi doesnt need to be analytic as long as hes entertaining. the only issue is if he starts saying stupid things which he occasionally does
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EPT
